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meco65
01/13/2010, 09:16 PM
ICH
I do not think that all tanks have ICH as ICH is a parasite, but if you do not treat all the fish and all new additions its like trying to get rid of the fleas on your dog, you kill the fleas on the dog, in his bed, in the house, getting rid of all of them. Than you bring a new dog into the house that is covered in fleas, re-infecting the dog, bed, house and all.
If you treat all fish in a QT with copper or hypo salinity before you add them to your tank you can keep ICH out. Or if its to late and your fish have it already you can still get rid of it. By letting the DT sit for at a minimum of 6 weeks while you treat ALL the fish until they have been ICH free for six weeks at least, after you see the last outbreak. You can eradicate the ICH in your tank. It can be re-infected with any thing new you put in your tank(LR, SAND, or any thing that a ICH parasite can cling on to. IMO that is why most hobbyist think all tanks have ICH you have to be vigilant not to add any thing with out QTing it first. Corals, LR, LS, Snails, crabs, shrimp or any non-fish for at least six weeks in QT with out fish, as the ICH parasite has to have a fish to reproduce.
IMO it is better to QT all new fish and treat with HYPOSALINTY or copper witch ever you prefer to use, to kill any ICH that the new fish might have. The ICH parasite can come in on any new arrival. So if you get rid of it. Than add a new fish that is infected than it starts all over.
This article tells all about the ICH parasite and how to kill it and keep it out.
http://www.chucksaddiction.com/ich.html

reefgeezer
01/13/2010, 09:39 PM
I think parasites are present in the display tank long after stocking is completed no matter how you manage the QT process. Healthy fish due to the excellent water conditions and low stress associated with quality reef systems are the best prevention.

mick243
01/13/2010, 09:55 PM
crypt CANNOT get into an aquarium unless you put it there.

it does not spontaneously appear.

improper QT procedures and poor husbandry is how it gets in.

justurmom
01/13/2010, 10:46 PM
i agree with what reefgeezer had said

meco65
01/13/2010, 10:50 PM
Ok two yes and two no so far.

sedor
01/13/2010, 10:53 PM
I'm with reefgeezer as well. Although I do agree that ich can successfully be kept out of the aquarium, I think attaining that is unlikely for most people. IN a healthy aquarium itself itself should only show itself under stressful circumstances in which case those stressful circumstances are what are causing the problem in the first place.

I think of ich similar to how we humans think of the flu. You could keep a baby in a bubble its whole life and prevent it from getting that nasty flu virus and by golly you would be able to die peacefully knowing you did it. But did it really help? Some might argue. In fact, we choose to inject ourselves as well as our young with small amounts of the virus yearly in order to build our immune systems against it.

meco65
01/13/2010, 10:58 PM
So sedor are you saying that its better for your fish to have a little ICH and keep there immune systems built up against it. Than not to have it because if it is introduced later they would not have as much immunity to the ICH parasite.

meco65
01/14/2010, 10:43 AM
anyone.

old salty
01/14/2010, 10:47 AM
No, I do not believe ich is in all tanks, nor do I believe that getting ich once in a while is some sort of health benefit for animals. Also, ich is a parasite and not a virus. Immune system has absolutely nothing to do with it.

meco65
01/14/2010, 11:13 AM
That’s what I was wondering how a fish can build immunity to a parasite.
I think as well that in a pristine tank the ICH can not reproduce well (lack of food supply) so you do not have major out breaks. In a dirty tank more food more ICH= major out breaks.

MatthewLaw
01/14/2010, 11:34 AM
i am not sure if dirty tank where there is more food necessarily affects ich reproduction.

i think more food may be a result of a needing to feed a lot of fish, and a lot of fish in a tank can cause stress on inhabitants, thus causing ich.

theyammieguy
01/14/2010, 11:48 AM
How long can ICH last without a host? Can it really "cling" to LR and LS?

Metal Man 1221
01/14/2010, 12:14 PM
iv never heard of ich coming with LR or LS i was just under the impression that if water, and obviously fish, from an infected tank comes in contact with the water in your tank the infection will spread and host on the fish, because the ich needs a host, and from my knowledge of ich i dont belive it can host on objects like LR or LS , it would most likly be the water the rock or sand is in that already contains the infection by being exposed to infected fish

however id have to disagree with the statement that an immune system will not provide some sort of resistance to parasitic infection, iv seen many articles describing how using garlic will help boost the immune system in most fish therefore aiding the process in eliminating the infection, im not sure how a parasite would be fought off by a fishes immune system, however it seems logical that the the body would have some type or physical response to the infection, whether the infection be, bacterial, viral or even parasitic, but i have to agree with reefgeezer in maintaining proper water peramiters, with out proper water quality the fish are under stress therfore weakening their immune system and abilty to fight off any sort of infection, basicly making them more suseptable to infection in the first place

just my opinion

edit: theyammieguy, i would say 6 to 8 weeks of a fallow tank, or fishless in other words

meco65
01/14/2010, 04:41 PM
bump

rking77573
01/14/2010, 04:59 PM
I think the vast majority of tanks have ich in them at some point in time.... maybe always. I'm not a marine biologist and haven't studied this so obviously I don't know for sure. Either way it seems that healthy and stress free inhabitants can shed any ich outbreaks in the tank.

wooden_reefer
01/14/2010, 05:10 PM
I think parasites are present in the display tank long after stocking is completed no matter how you manage the QT process. Healthy fish due to the excellent water conditions and low stress associated with quality reef systems are the best prevention.

Not all parasites have similar life cycles and should be controled the same way.

For ich I always aim to eradicate.

It is possible and necessary to eradicate ich.

The lack of dilution effect of the ocean in a tank is a most essential factor. Immunity is only a part of the control for some parasites, only some.

It is not possible to eliminate all external bacteria, for example. Immunity against bacteria is a valid factor and reliable control, not so for ich.

wooden_reefer
01/14/2010, 05:13 PM
Itch is not in all tanks.

It is not in my DTs, I believe.

When I didn't aim to eradicate it had always came back; once I did, it has never came back for over 25 years.

Proof? Not rigorous I suppose, but enough proof for me.

ritter6788
01/14/2010, 05:44 PM
I'm torn on this issue. I had ich in my tank when I first started out. Everything I put in there got ich. Probably had poor water quality high nitrates and all that too. I removed all fish to QT for 6 weeks, and when I returned them to the display I never got it again so I believed that the parasite had died without a host. Since I have upgraded my tank I have added fish without QT and never had an outbreak again. I even added a yellow tang last year that showed signs of ich when I put him in my tank and it cleared up and hasn't returned at all. I just always wondered if keeping my fish healthier and better husbandry kept the fish from getting ich or if I have just been lucky.

wooden_reefer
01/14/2010, 05:51 PM
I would say that the first instance of the first fish getting heavy ich infestation may be related to water quality, nutrition, immunity, but afterward the lack of dilution of the tank will result in constant re-infestation by larger and larger number of ich. Superinfection (superinfestation) will be the dominant consideration afterward.

Reliance on immunity, water quality, nutrition against ich is far too chancy for me.

Eradication is the only way to go.

I always QT any fish or drop or mist from any commercial source. For fish, it is always 8 or more weeks of active treatment in QT against ich, seeing or not seeing ich, no difference. I don't look for ich on a new fish at all.

Kieth71
01/14/2010, 05:51 PM
Ich is in most tank because if you see recent polls of people that actually qt their fish you will see most do not.The minority of people that do qt are mixed in the method in which they qt.Some of the people just watch the fish in the qt tank and dont treat the fish.The people here that will tell you that ich is not in every tank not only qt EVERY fish that enters the display but also treat each fish for ich,flukes and internal parasites.This is not always easy at first and is the reason we have so many myths about parasites and other fish diseases.

MatthewLaw
01/14/2010, 06:20 PM
why treat the fish for ich/flukes/internal parasites if the fish appears to be healthy over the QT period?

TampaReefer79
01/14/2010, 06:29 PM
I'm not sure if it's in all tanks or not, but isn't there some new product that allows a tank owner to treat the main display for ICH without having to remove the fish? How good is this stuff? All that is going to do is make people NOT QT fish at all, because they'll know in the back of their mind that they can now treat the display.

meco65
01/14/2010, 06:31 PM
It is not worth chancing all your fish coming down with ICH just by not treating them for it before adding to your DT. All it takes is one time, and you can lose all your fish. And it easier to treat one fish when you get it in, than having to take down your rock work to catch that last fish you cant catch with out tarring down the whole tank. IMO.

Kieth71
01/14/2010, 06:37 PM
The reason to treat fish for common problems is so you dont infect your entire dt with parasites and disease.Most of us dont have lab grade microscopes and wouldnt be comfortable doing gill scrapings to see if the fish is infected.It is much easier to just come up with a good qt regiment to treat all your fish with.As i said before it is not always easy at first and people set themselves up for failure with spur of the moment purchases and last minute qt set ups that have ammonia problems from day one.A well thought out qt regiment is a great tool in helping to keep healthy fish.

lougotzz
01/14/2010, 07:46 PM
Ok, dont laugh.

I thought ich was a dormant parasite thats in every fish, and only comes out when the fish is stressed? I always thought all fish had ich, it only comes out when stressed?

I could ahve sworn I read that some where on reef central. Correct me if Im wrong please.

iwishtofish
01/14/2010, 07:49 PM
This is undoubtedly one of the most contested topics in the aquarium hobby. Quarantining and/or preemptively treating fish seems like a practical solution to keeping one's aquarium ich-free. However, ich isn't always attached to the fish and remains viable after dropping free of its host; this is why we leave a tank fallow for a sufficient period after removing afflicted fish.

So doesn't it stand to reason that every time you put any water from an infected aquarium in your display tank, you may be introducing the host-free stage of the parasite? This water could be on your new corals, chaeto, live rock, or the sand you use to "seed" a new sandbed.

Most people don't QT their fish. More than most people don't QT their corals, or their chaeto, or their snails. So it stands to reason, in my opinion, that it should be assumed that just about anything we buy could be a vector for the parasite.

If it is true that ich can be introduced with just about anything wet, it seems to me that keeping ich out of one's tank would require a nearly herculean effort. Some people (if not many) do it, but most people aren't going to have the patience or desire required to maintain a separate fish QT tank, and a separate everything else QT tank.

If one were operating on the presumption that ich can be introduced on just about anything, and it was desired to stock a new tank with many corals in a reasonable amount of time, wouldn't it be necessary to either add all your corals to your DT before you add any fish, let the tank remain fallow for the recommended period, and then add your QTd/treated fish afterward so they don't all run the chance of being re-infected and perpetuating the parasite? Add one more coral before the fallow period is over, and the clock starts again.

I'm about to start up a new tank, and I've been debating the whole QT thing for months now. I'm pretty sure I don't have the will (or money) to set up two separate QT tanks. Maybe I'll just QT certain sensitive fish to get them healthy and acclimated to certain foods before I introduce them to the DT. I doubt I will put a whole lot of effort into treating ich. I'll probably put more effort into buying healthy fish and trying to keep them that way through nutrition and stress-reduction. Many people will blast me for being reckless and irresponsible. I'll be taking a gamble, but most everything in this hobby is just that. I certainly don't fault people who go to extreme efforts to keep ich out of their tanks - I just don't necessarily think it is practical for me.

meco65
01/14/2010, 09:21 PM
I like my 14Gal Bio-Cube it makes a great QT for corals, snails, chaeto, or any non-fish reef tank inhabitant. As for fish you can even QT fish in a bucket, not that I would, lol a 20 to 30 gallon tank works great. It is well worth the time and effort, and humane to our scaly pets. I would not like to have parasites on me.

reefgeezer
01/14/2010, 09:35 PM
At the risk of jinxing myself... I am a little lucky. For such a small town, Wichita has many excellent LFSs and they are all within a 20 minite drive. I buy all my livestock locally. I don't normally buy a fish until I've observed it over sevaral days. If it gets sold before I decide its healthy, acclimated to captivity, and eating well, oh well. If I decide to break this rule I use QT but don't treat for anything. I just observe the fish, keep the tank calm, and feed garlic soaked brine shrimp to get it eating.

I'm not sure what causes outbreaks, but I can say that it is my experience that they don't occur when the fish are not stressed. I do have a Hippo Tang that will develop a cyst if you look at him funny, but it never seems to progress into an outbreak.

IMHO, reef safe ich treatments are at best ineffective. QT with copper or formulan depending on the type of parasite, hyposalinity, frreshwater dips do work if the fish survive the stress of capture and acclimation to the QT. However, I think the there is little difference in outcome if you remove them for treatment once an outbreak occurs or just let them heal on their own or else.

meco65
01/14/2010, 09:44 PM
If you only have one fish in the DT tank that would seem fine, but most of us keep more than one fish. I guess you could just take the infected fish out and QT him but how many times dose he have to be done that way. Get rid of it first and you do not have to worry about it any more. I guess you could get the DT just like you want it than take out all the fish for six week QT them and treat for ICH than put them back, and never add any thing else. JMO.

greenbean36191
01/15/2010, 05:55 AM
First, a few things that we know beyond a shadow of a doubt- Ich is an obligate fish parasite. It cannot complete its lifecycle without fish, which means it's entirely possible to keep it from entering a tank. We also know that fish do develop resistance to infection from ich. That's not a matter of speculation, but has been measured empirically multiple times.

Now is it practical to keep ich out of a tank? I certainly think so. Putting all new fish through QT and treatment isn't that hard. While it is theoretically possible to introduce ich on almost anything wet, it's a very unlikely mode of introduction. If you wanted to be 100% safe you would quarantine everything wet, but just taking care of the fish should prevent probably 90% of introductions.

why treat the fish for ich/flukes/internal parasites if the fish appears to be healthy over the QT period?
The simple answer is because looking healthy and being healthy are not the same.

The average fish with any level of resistance to ich (which is the vast majority of fish that have been exposed to the parasite before) carries roughly 7-13 of he parasites (compared to about 330 during an outbreak). That's more than enough to introduce it to the tank but few enough that you're unlikely to see spots. The parasite itself is at the lower end of what the human eye can resolve, so it only becomes apparent when it damages the skin badly enough to cause the nodules, which often isn't the case. Add to that that roughly 90% of the external surface area of a fish is in the gills, where ich loves to attack, but where you can't see it. That means that unless the immunity of the fish is severely compromised, there is a good chance that it could pass through a period in QT without showing noticeable spots.

I thought ich was a dormant parasite thats in every fish, and only comes out when the fish is stressed? I always thought all fish had ich, it only comes out when stressed?
No, there is no phase in the life cycle of the parasite where it can go dormant. The closest thing is the tomont stage, which is the stage where it's encysted on the substrate, so temporarily doesn't need a host. While the parasite can last from 3-72 days in this stage, it's not dormancy because it's not sitting around doing nothing while it waits for some cue that conditions are right to spring back to life. During this stage it's multiplying and the theronts will excyst from the tomonts asynchronously under whatever environmental conditions happen to be occurring at that time whether a host is present or not.

It's also true that fish can, and often do harbor latent infections with ich, which means they're still infected, but because they have some level of resistance the number of parasites is low enough that it doesn't cause noticeable symptoms. However, compromising the immune system, or perhaps even introducing a new strain of the parasite can result in the latent infection progressing to an active outbreak. In either case the parasite is still actively feeding off of the fish and continually proceeding through the lifecycle.

theyammieguy
01/15/2010, 06:13 AM
I have never QT'd a fish but want to set up a QT tank when I upgrade my tank. I plan on buying a cheap 20g tank to use as a QT tank. What filter would best be used on a QT tank and what filter mèdia? Also besides copper what else do I medicate with?

This is a good thread and should open the eyes of the ones like me that haven't QT'd fish.

meco65
01/15/2010, 09:11 AM
A HOB will do ok, as for media, the filters that come with it will do you can keep a filter in your sump or tank to build up the bacteria and when you put a fish in QT it will have a head start. Never reuse the filters when you take one out of your sump or tank put a new one in for next time.
You can use copper or hypo salinity. Here is a link that will help. Be sure to only use the hypo-salinity treatment on fish, not on corals of invertebrates.

http://www.fishchannel.com/fish-exclusives/fama/hypo-salinity-vacation-feeding.aspx

http://www.chucksaddiction.com/ich.html

theyammieguy
01/15/2010, 10:51 AM
Most of the filter that come with the HOB's are carbon, won't that remove the meds?

meco65
01/15/2010, 11:28 AM
The carbon is ok for Hypo but not for copper or other meds, however you can cut the top of the filter and remove the carbon then after meds you can add the carbon back to the filter, or just run the bio-media that comes with the filter.

meco65
01/16/2010, 12:40 AM
Anyone.

iwishtofish
01/16/2010, 07:25 AM
Now is it practical to keep ich out of a tank? I certainly think so. Putting all new fish through QT and treatment isn't that hard. While it is theoretically possible to introduce ich on almost anything wet, it's a very unlikely mode of introduction. If you wanted to be 100% safe you would quarantine everything wet, but just taking care of the fish should prevent probably 90% of introductions.


greenbean, is there really only a 10% chance of introducing ich from things such as live rock, chaeto, corals,etc? Doesn't ich multiply dramatically during an outbreak, and send itself all over the tank in search of hosts?

Even a 10% risk seems high to me if someone goes to a lot of trouble to keep their tank healthy by just QTing fish.

RBU1
01/16/2010, 08:26 AM
greenbean, is there really only a 10% chance of introducing ich from things such as live rock, chaeto, corals,etc? Doesn't ich multiply dramatically during an outbreak, and send itself all over the tank in search of hosts?

Even a 10% risk seems high to me if someone goes to a lot of trouble to keep their tank healthy by just QTing fish.


I don't think greenbean or anyone can confirm that...

The key to be ich free is QT....WOW I like it.....

Now that means EVERYTHING wet....Granted as greenbean stated your chances of introducing ich on snails, corlas and rock is less then fish but the chance is still there. I am looking for a place to buy snails that only carries snails. That way you know there are no fish in the system to keep the ich alive. The only key to this is the location the vendor gets them from. If the vendor gets them from a system with fish then I will have to QT snails for 12 weeks.

Trust me after having to break down my 300 now twice to catch fish its not worth it not to QT.

meco65
01/16/2010, 09:35 AM
If all the tanks at a LFS are on the same system than all can get infected by a outbreak.

RBU1
01/16/2010, 09:38 AM
If all the tanks at a LFS are on the same system than all can get infected by a outbreak.

Correct.

Thats why some stores keep copper in the fish systems. Usually the level stores keep is on the low side just to aid in keeping the parasite in check.

The key is to find a place to buy inverts that has them on a seperate system then the fish. Most that run copper will, but my store also has fish in with the inverts. The place I am looking at online only sells inverts they don't have fish. The thing I need to find out is were they get the inverts from.

krowleey
01/16/2010, 11:34 AM
I think parasites are present in the display tank long after stocking is completed no matter how you manage the QT process. Healthy fish due to the excellent water conditions and low stress associated with quality reef systems are the best prevention.

this is a myth, and when hobbiest practice this they always have ich in the DT. It is provwen, documented and known from personal experience that QT will 100% keep parasites out of your DT for good. Try it once and you will never add anything to your tank without QT, because it works everytime.

krowleey
01/16/2010, 11:42 AM
At the risk of jinxing myself... I am a little lucky. For such a small town, Wichita has many excellent LFSs and they are all within a 20 minite drive. I buy all my livestock locally. I don't normally buy a fish until I've observed it over sevaral days. If it gets sold before I decide its healthy, acclimated to captivity, and eating well, oh well. If I decide to break this rule I use QT but don't treat for anything. I just observe the fish, keep the tank calm, and feed garlic soaked brine shrimp to get it eating.

I'm not sure what causes outbreaks, but I can say that it is my experience that they don't occur when the fish are not stressed. I do have a Hippo Tang that will develop a cyst if you look at him funny, but it never seems to progress into an outbreak.

IMHO, reef safe ich treatments are at best ineffective. QT with copper or formulan depending on the type of parasite, hyposalinity, frreshwater dips do work if the fish survive the stress of capture and acclimation to the QT. However, I think the there is little difference in outcome if you remove them for treatment once an outbreak occurs or just let them heal on their own or else.

this is known as a ticking time bomb. you can at any moment have a full infestation resulting in fish loss. Ich attacks the gills first, why? because it passes through the gills as the fish breaths, when it attacks the gills, it causes major stress leaving the fish weak to a full infestation. as far as hypo goes, it is much less stress on a fish than copper or god forbid formulan treatments. and fish acclimate to low salinity very well, it's the rising of the salinity you have to be very slow on. I have acclimated tangs from 35ppt to 12ppt instantly just focusing on PH and temp with zero problems, and it is known that the OK aquarium does this same practice with no fish loss. QT with a treatment is paramount in keeping your DT ich free.

GrayWhale
01/16/2010, 11:56 AM
QT and close observation of live rock, corals, inverts and plants will also give you an opportunity to deal with other pests such as flatworms, redbugs, aiptasia, mojanos, etc. before introducing them to your tank.

meco65
01/16/2010, 12:44 PM
And unlike fish corals and inverts anything other than fish can be QTed in a tank with LR and LS as long as they are QTed for the full six to eight weeks.

r0bin
01/16/2010, 03:43 PM
I 100% do not beleive ick is in every tank.

I had fish that unfortunately were stressed to death for one reason or another that never broke out with ick.

I have have fish that have had ick, been Qt'd with copper for 6 weeks and then were subject to a very low PH drop and the fish did not rebreak out because it was gone from the tank being fallow for 6 weeks.

Ick is in the tank or not in the tank.

reefgeezer
01/16/2010, 05:43 PM
My Hippo Tang is over a year old and has shown a few cysts and scratched a few times twice in that period. I think conditions that would cause enough stress to cause an "outbreak" would kill all the corals in my tank first.

Like I said, I wouldn't advise against QT. I do however think that time could be as good as copper. The life cycle of the parasite ON the fish is pretty short. The majority of the life cycle is in the cyst stage and after it falls off the fish. If a fish hasn't developed cysts in a few weeks, it doesn't have ich and can't infest the display tank.

I owned an LFS and never used copper in my holding systems. I did run salinity at 1.017, but copper is somewhat toxic, even at the levels needed to treat Ich IMO it damages specimens exposed to it for more than a couple of weeks. I can't cite anything in writing, but I would not buy a fish that I knew had been housed in cooper.

Mad_Reefer
01/16/2010, 09:31 PM
I'm with reefgeezer as well. Although I do agree that ich can successfully be kept out of the aquarium, I think attaining that is unlikely for most people. IN a healthy aquarium itself itself should only show itself under stressful circumstances in which case those stressful circumstances are what are causing the problem in the first place.



:thumbsup:

Sisterlimonpot
01/16/2010, 10:25 PM
I do however think that time could be as good as copper. The life cycle of the parasite ON the fish is pretty short. The majority of the life cycle is in the cyst stage and after it falls off the fish. If a fish hasn't developed cysts in a few weeks, it doesn't have ich and can't infest the display tank. I disagree, time will not clear ich until you break the cycle by removing the host fishes and treating them with copper or (my choice) hypo-salinity and allowing the display tank to go follow for 8 weeks. Green Bean hit the nail on the head. Just because the fish isn't showing signs doesn’t mean that it's ich free. It’s just under manageable conditions. Which is only a ticking time bomb (like krowleey said) it'll eventually come back full force and wipe out your more sensitive fish.

It is possible and not farfetched to have an ich free tank. It just takes some discipline on our parts to do it.

Sisterlimonpot
01/16/2010, 10:43 PM
Here (http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.php)is a great article by Steven Pro

greenbean36191
01/17/2010, 08:44 AM
greenbean, is there really only a 10% chance of introducing ich from things such as live rock, chaeto, corals,etc? Doesn't ich multiply dramatically during an outbreak, and send itself all over the tank in search of hosts?

The 10% is a made up number (all of the others were real numbers though). The point was that while it is possible to bring in ich on almost anything wet, it's a pretty uncommon mode of transmission.

There are probably lots of reasons that's the case.

When it comes to LR, if you're buying new stuff it's usually spent a week or two on land being sprayed with water and then another week or 2 in shipping. Then you either get it transhipped and put it in a tank, usually with no fish, or the wholesaler/retailer gets it and either puts it in a curing system, usually with no fish, or they keep it in the box. It's already effectively been quarantined for a few weeks in most cases.

Most wholesalers also have separate systems for fish and inverts, so if they're kept separate at your LFS then they probably haven't had any contact with fish since they were collected.

With corals and inverts like sea stars, the soft tissue keep the tomonts from encysting so you only have to worry about the small surface area that's not covered by tissue.

In any case, about 95% of tomonts (that's a real percentage) excyst within 10 days, so if you can get a week and a half of isolation from fish, there's only about a 5% chance of introducing ich from rock, inverts, or algae, even if they did ever have any tomonts on them.

In cases where inverts and rock are in the same system as fish but in different tanks, they're still fairly unlikely to be infected with tomonts, though the risk is obviously much greater than in they're in separate systems. The reason it's still a low risk is that the protomonts drop off the fish at night and actively swim towards the bottom to encyst, which means most of them stay close to where they came off the fish- usually in the same tank.

Obviously you don't want to take rock or inverts from a tank you know has fish with ich in it and put them directly in your tank.

Playa-1
01/17/2010, 09:09 AM
I agree with greenbean.

After taking some hard lumps, I now QT all new arrivals. Once I was on the Fence and now I'm a strong advocate for the QT process. Once I started using the QT correctly, my life became much easier.

meco65
01/17/2010, 09:43 AM
Great info coming out here this should be in the New to the Hobby Forum as well.

reefgeezer
01/17/2010, 09:49 AM
Here (http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.php)is a great article by Steven Pro

Please excuse the long post. This is a great thread and I'd like to continue it.

That was the prevailing wisdom when I ran my store. I TREATED infected fish that way in a QT tank. Even then, I didn't isolate my personal fish in copper. At that time we also accepted nitrates at 80 ppm and some still used UG filters.

Are we sure that we are speaking of cryptocarion when we speak of ich? The more aggressive parasite commonly referred to as ich is Oodinium. While similar to crypto, oodinium is characterized by rapidly spreading very small (powerded sugar sized) cysts. Crypto spreads at a slower pace and the cysts are more the size of a grain of salt.

Knowing the difference is important. Oodinium is much more treatable with hyposalinity and it does respond to copper. Crypto responds best to formulan.

As for isolation for 30 days... Lets suppose that the fish we put in our QT has a few parasites that have just attached. This senario assumes that there are no paracites in the QT to begin with. After about 7 days, the paracite has formed a cyst and a couple of days later they have fallen off. Since there are no existing parasites in the QT, the fish is now free of all parasites. Since all the parasites are not in the exact same cycle, lets assume that some of them formed cysts and fell off earlier. So now the fish has no parasites, and the cysts are residing in the substrate. If we leave the fish in the QT for much longer, the cysts will become free swimming parasites and reinfect it. When I do QT a fish, I do it without medication, 82 degrees F,and at SG of 1.017 for 12 days.

As for copper, the concentration where it is effective is very close to the level where it will stress or, in the long term, kill a fish. Even at recommended dosages, copper surpresses immune systems. I would never keep a fish in formulin. A dip is much more effective.

SkyPapa
01/17/2010, 09:56 AM
So, how would you qt folks qt healthy looking/acting; 5 anthias, 3 chromis, a hogfish, a one spot fox, a firefish, 4 damsels, and 2 clowns from seperate but connected tanks?
I got impatient and added a royal gramma, to my new 180, that apparently had ich and it killed my 8 yr old royal gramma but the listed fish have shown no symtoms

I mean the actual logistics of housing the fish not methods.

Kieth71
01/17/2010, 10:09 AM
Please excuse the long post. This is a great thread and I'd like to continue it.

That was the prevailing wisdom when I ran my store. I TREATED infected fish that way in a QT tank. Even then, I didn't isolate my personal fish in copper. At that time we also accepted nitrates at 80 ppm and some still used UG filters.

Are we sure that we are speaking of cryptocarion when we speak of ich? The more aggressive parasite commonly referred to as ich is Oodinium. While similar to crypto, oodinium is characterized by rapidly spreading very small (powerded sugar sized) cysts. Crypto spreads at a slower pace and the cysts are more the size of a grain of salt.

Knowing the difference is important. Oodinium is much more treatable with hyposalinity and it does respond to copper. Crypto responds best to formulan.

As for isolation for 30 days... Lets suppose that the fish we put in our QT has a few parasites that have just attached. This senario assumes that there are no paracites in the QT to begin with. After about 7 days, the paracite has formed a cyst and a couple of days later they have fallen off. Since there are no existing parasites in the QT, the fish is now free of all parasites. Since all the parasites are not in the exact same cycle, lets assume that some of them formed cysts and fell off earlier. So now the fish has no parasites, and the cysts are residing in the substrate. If we leave the fish in the QT for much longer, the cysts will become free swimming parasites and reinfect it. When I do QT a fish, I do it without medication, 82 degrees F,and at SG of 1.017 for 12 days.

As for copper, the concentration where it is effective is very close to the level where it will stress or, in the long term, kill a fish. Even at recommended dosages, copper surpresses immune systems. I would never keep a fish in formulin. A dip is much more effective.

The problem with this thinking is although you could use the method you are describing(tank transfer method) it sounds as though you think it would be ok to stick the fish in the display after just one cycle.This method must be continued several times to diffrent tanks until you can be sure that the parasite is no longer on the fish.I have never done this personally but i have seen articles where people have done this successfully.Useing copper correctly is far from the death sentence you describe it as and cupramine is quite easy on the fish compared to other copper products.I also dont know anyone that mistake Oodinium (velvet) for ich.Velvet is about as deadly as it gets in this hobby and i would not hesitate to use copper for this as it kills so fast.

Paul B
01/17/2010, 01:30 PM
I just love these ich discussions. So many theories and not so much hard facts.
The paracite itself has been studied to death, we know what it looks like, how it reproduces, how long it takes, how many times it could reproduce,
what it likes to watch on TV etc. but for some unknown reason, we still don't know everything.
I am fairly sure I have been dealing with it longer than most people here and I learned a few things about it. I learned that we still need to learn more.
I will not get into if every tank always has ich or not. I don't really care.
I personally do not have to quarantine. I used to have to , but not anymore. I have learned how to get my tank to a state that ich is no problem.
How can I say that?
Next year my tank will be 40 years old. It is full of NSW from NY. Over the years I have added from the sea, rocks, seaweeds, flounders, seahorses, pipefish, eels, barnacles, clams, mussels, amphipods, bacteria, snails, sponges, mud etc.
I add this stuff every week in the summer. Also from five or six local LFSs we have near my home I have been adding fish for all of that time.
You would think there is ich in my tank would you not?
If that is the case than why are some of my fish 18 years old, why are many of them spawning? Why don't I ever see any paracites?
I think I know why.
My tank is healthy. Yes thats all there is to it.
For the first ten years or so my tank was an ich magnet like all tanks then . It had sterile, dead coral in it with pure clean sand. Nothing natural. The fish were not spawning and I had to keep copper in the water 24/7.
If I added a new fish, ich all over the place. If it were not for copper, there would not be a salt water hobby, but that is for a different thread.
Our fish, yes, even mine, are stressed. If they are not in the sea, they are stressed. If you have a tang, it is stressed. They are schooling fish and are never alone. The rest of our fish are not "happy" swimming in 18" of water.
They don't like the lights going out all at once and they don't like being without a mate. They don't like mysis as a steady diet, and they really don't like looking at out ugly faces through the glass. (ugly to the fish anyway, I know some of you are Supermodels)
But if we could lower their level of stress to where they are spawning, they don't seem to be bothered from ich.
If you don't believe me, than you have to explain my tank.
Also, amazingly, fish are not like us. Not even a little. Their health is very dependant on their diet, unlike us. We can "spawn" no matter how we eat or how stressed we become. Fish can not. It takes a great deal of energy for a fish to produce eggs. Eggs which are mostly oil and could comprise a large portion of the fishes weight.
Where am I going with this?
If a fish is able to produce eggs and spawn, or at least produce eggs, it has to be in excellent condition. Fish in the sea spawn continousely all year long.
Are they doing that in your tank? If not, they are not healthy and suseptable to ich. Yes they do become immune to it, but only if they are in excellent health.
Of course a fish like a hippo tang or moorish Idol will not spawn in a tank but if the other types of fish like clowns are spawning, then the tangs are probably also in good health.
To get fish into that kind of condition they need to be fed what they need which is oil. In the sea, fish eat mostly other fish. Whole fish, heads, guts and all. A fish is about one fifth liver which is mostly oil. They are also eating the skeleton which is calcium.
Fish can certainly live without this as we can live without vegetables but they will not be healthy, they will not be spawning and they will be vulnerable to ich and a host of other things.
There are other ways to get this needed oil into a fish but I think I said enough already and I will have to throw pebbles at people to stay awake.
:)

Kieth71
01/17/2010, 01:44 PM
You stated in your post that for the first 10 years you had ich in your tank on and off.While you have more experience in this great hobby then i have years on this earth i want to keep the parasite out of my tank.You also stated we know alot about this parasite and i agree.We know how to rid a fish of the parasite long before it ever hits the display tank.I know alot of people advocate no qt and the fish will fight it off if healthy but that is not an approach i care to take.If i can rid the fish of such parasites and along with that get the fish eating well and prepared for life in a tank then i feel i have given the fish a better chance of living a long life in my aquarium.I dont want to get into a discussion as to if the fish is happier in my aquarium then in the ocean but this thread was started asking the question..Do all tanks have ich?The answer is no and although its not always easy for the reasons stated in this thread it is very achievable.

Paul B
01/17/2010, 01:58 PM
Keith, I do not advocate not quarantining. Some tanks must be quarantined for the reasons I stated.
I can't quarantine and still add all the things from the sea that I feel keep my tank healthy.
You certainly can keep ich out of a tank. I am just not sure that is the best way to go.
We as humans are exposed to all sorts of viruses and bacteria. We try to keep ourselves away from these things the best we can but we also try to become immune to them by vacinating ourselves.
As we grow, we are exposed to these things and we hopefully develop an immunity from them.
We can quarantine of course, while at the same time, keeping our fish immune just in case the paracite enters the tank.
If we were never exposed to bacteria, we would not be able to live. We need to develop a resistance.
I really don't know the answer as these are just my opinions and I would never tell any one to quarantine or not, that is up to them.

cloak
01/17/2010, 03:38 PM
If four damsels are put into a 20 gallon tank at the same time, none have been through quarantine. How long can they coexist with each other without ever getting sick before it's safe to say that ich will never show up? Three months, four months, five months, etc?

I had a small Atlantic blue tang and two ocellaris clownfish in a 60 gallon tank one time. None of them had ever been through quarantine. They lived sick free for at least three months or so. On a Saturday morning, just like I've always done, I did a water change. The next morning, the Atlantic blue tank looks like it had been battered in salt, sick as all get out. The two clowns were fine. Monday it got better, Tuesday it got better, etc. By Thursday, it was almost all gone. I did a water change on Saturday again, and on Sunday, it was deja vu all over again. That tang was sick as a dog, the clowns were fine. As the days passed, it eventually went away, but it was just amazing to see it happen like that right before your eyes. The clowns weathered it, twice.

FWIW.

bwiele
01/17/2010, 04:47 PM
When people refer to treatment in a QT in this thread, is the primary approach to this treatment hyposalinity? And am I correct in my understanding that hyposalinity is considered effective at a level of 1.017? Thank you.

Kieth71
01/17/2010, 05:16 PM
Hyposalinity refers to treating fish at 1.008-1.009 which is effective in killing ich.You must treat at this salinity for 4 weeks and make sure you have an accurate refractometer because anything above 1.009 will not kill ich and anything below 1.008 can be very bad for the fish.1.017 does nothing other then some people feel it allows the fish to breathe easier if they have ich since the parasite attacks the gills.

meco65
01/17/2010, 05:29 PM
Hypo-salinity is effective at 1.009 and needs to be done for at least six weeks after you see the last sign of ICH. Than slowly increase the salinity back to normal over one week.

RBU1
01/17/2010, 07:44 PM
Paul B..

Your thoughts are interesting to say the least. I am also not one to take a chance and QT and treat all fish with Cupramine and prazipro. I am interested in hearing what you feed your fish. Can you please share your tank maintenance and feeding with us so maybe we can all have as healthy of a tank as you.

Sisterlimonpot
01/17/2010, 08:49 PM
it takes 40 years to get to that point. Paul wrote a good article in RK mag last year about his tank. I'll have to try and dig it up.

tarpon12
01/17/2010, 09:42 PM
Sooo are you guys suggesting that fish can build up immunity to parasites or are you saying that some fish are more susceptible than others? or both.

MatthewLaw
01/17/2010, 10:00 PM
i think both. Powder Blue Tangs and Regal Tangs are VERY VERY susceptible to ich, no matter how many times they are treated. other fish are more resilient and with good water conditions and a healthy diet, can combat these parasites.

i think the common denominator here is that the better hte water conditions, the less of a chance the fish will get ich (assuming appropriate quarantine and other fish are healthy)

tarpon12
01/17/2010, 10:08 PM
makes sense. My midas blenny started to rub on the rocks about a week ago. This morning he had ich but just on his head nowhere else. He is currently in my QT undergoing treatment. None of my other fish are showing any symptoms. Oh by the way has anyone had any success with Kick Ich? Im not using it in my QT, I was just wondering.

Sisterlimonpot
01/17/2010, 10:27 PM
Paul B..

Your thoughts are interesting to say the least. I am also not one to take a chance and QT and treat all fish with Cupramine and prazipro. I am interested in hearing what you feed your fish. Can you please share your tank maintenance and feeding with us so maybe we can all have as healthy of a tank as you.
Here (http://reefkeeping.com/joomla/index.php/past-issues/2009/august-2009/article/7-paul-baldassanos-40-year-old-reef) it is
notice the bottles in his tank

RBU1
01/18/2010, 07:04 AM
Sooo are you guys suggesting that fish can build up immunity to parasites or are you saying that some fish are more susceptible than others? or both.

I think that no matter what they are saying or implying it is not worth the chance. QT is the way to go......

RBU1
01/18/2010, 07:05 AM
Here (http://reefkeeping.com/joomla/index.php/past-issues/2009/august-2009/article/7-paul-baldassanos-40-year-old-reef) it is
notice the bottles in his tank

Thanks

RBU1
01/18/2010, 07:19 AM
I read thru Pauls article and he believes that fish oil is what helps with spawning and healthy fish. He achieves this by feeding blackworms or food soaked in fish oil....He thinks pellets obsorb the oil the best. My only question would be if fish oil does as it is claimed to why would the fish food makers of the world not include this in their food?

wooden_reefer
01/18/2010, 10:57 AM
why treat the fish for ich/flukes/internal parasites if the fish appears to be healthy over the QT period?

I think this can be correct if your QT period is at least six months, better a year. There is the factor of chance. It is possible for ich concentration to remain quite low in a QT for quite a long time. Immunity is tricky.

If you wait just eight weeks in QT to observe, the chance of ich outbreak in DT is still unacceptably high.

I am refering to the total absence of treatment in QT. If you treat intermittantly, say copper once every ten days as many LFS do, ich may never go away in a QT and your fish may not look ich infested. Same condition as very light infestation in the ocean.

Sisterlimonpot
01/18/2010, 11:15 AM
I read thru Pauls article and he believes that fish oil is what helps with spawning and healthy fish. He achieves this by feeding blackworms or food soaked in fish oil....He thinks pellets obsorb the oil the best. My only question would be if fish oil does as it is claimed to why would the fish food makers of the world not include this in their food?

Because Pauls tank sits over an ancient burial ground and his tank defies all logic.... RUGF only works in his tank :D

Seriously, I wonder if it has something to do with the oils becoming rancid without some sort of preservative.....

Paul B
01/18/2010, 11:43 AM
My only question would be if fish oil does as it is claimed to why would the fish food makers of the world not include this in their food?


Because it makes the food very sticky and yes, it does become rancid and has to be packaged in airtight containers, that is why fish oil comes in capsules.
I have contacted "Ocean Nutrition" foods about marketing small frozen fish such as baby makeral. I have even told them where to get them. They were supposed to send someone to my house last year to discuss it but I guess they forgot.
I can buy tiny makeral less than 1/4" long but I can only get them dried. The fish eat them but they have the consistancy of wood so they have a hard time swallowing them. We need them frozen.
In leiu of that, we can feed live blackworms which are common in many aquarium shops and on line. They are also full of oil. Whole fish would be better though.
This top picture taken of my tank in about 1974 or so shows a male blue devil over his nest of eggs in that barnacle shell. I had 7 of them at that time and they lived about 7 years and spawned every month or so for most of that time, but only after I started feeding live blackworms.
Before that, I just had to keep copper in the water to ward off ich. Blue devile were one of the only salt water fish you could buy at that time.
They never again were infected with ich even though every fish in just about every store had it. Stores would go out of business because ich was such a problem. There was no salt water fish food available, only flakes.
I have found from observing fish for many years in tanks and by diving with them that they should have the proper food. Which means among other things, fish oil.
I didn't make this up, if you want to learn what fish need you need to spend some time with them. I have spent over 300 hours underwater doing just that. Maybe fish food manufacturers need to do some diving.
As I said, your fish will live with out it, they will live on flakes but then you need to quarantine because as soon as you get a paracite in your tank, it will multiply and kill your fish.

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh270/urchsearch/scan0003.jpg

RBU1
01/18/2010, 12:08 PM
With all due respect Paul. You have been in this hobby a long time. But I do have to ask this question. What kind of fish do you keep? It seems to me they are not considered hard to keep by any stretch. The hardier the fish the easier they are to keep. Would you put a $1300.00 fish in your tank? or even a $500.00 fish for that matter...

Paul B
01/18/2010, 12:39 PM
Would you put a $1300.00 fish in your tank? or even a $500.00 fish for that matter...


Well I don't think I would buy a $1,300.00 fish but I have kept a moorish Idol for five years which although is lousy, for a moorish Idol, that is almost a record.
I kept a brutlyd or cusk eel for 18 years until I killed it by accident. I have a pair of blue stiripped pipefish that have been spawning for a couple of years along with a pair of fire clowns, one of which is about 16, they are also spawning. Out of my 5 watchman gobies, 4 of them are spawning as are my 11 year old hermit crabs.
I don't keep any exotic fish that are thousands of dollars, not because I can't, but because I don't want to.
I did hatch out a bunch of octopus but I did not raise them.
Raised many seahorses in my reef also.
I really can't think of a fish I have not kept in the last four decades except a pinecone fish, I never had one of those.
I think I have about 22 fish now and they are mostly bottom dwelling fish. I keep them because I like them. I just don't personally like angels or tangs, I had many of them and got bored. I would rather have a drab, unusual gobi spawn than have a beautiful French Angelfish swimming around in circles.
If I see something odd or unusual, I buy it. My hippo is old and I have had many of them as well as most butterflies. I do like copperband and long nosed butterflies and have no problem keeping them for many years. My mandarin lived about 10 years.
I don't know what other, rare, hard to keep fish you want me to keep.
My tank, to me is an experiment and was never there to be a showpiece.
I go for odd and unusual.
I love these guys and they are only about 2" long
http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh270/urchsearch/IMG_0107.jpg

I raised over 100 of these and wrote an article about them, I think they are kind of odd.

http://www.breedersregistry.org/Articles/baldassano2004/SolarPoweredSlug.htm
http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh270/urchsearch/Ecrispata004.jpg

This little baby grew up and has been spawning for a few years

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh270/urchsearch/tank007.jpg

I killed this Idol by accident after five years. I even went to Bora Bora to dive with them to learn what they eat and how they make a living

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh270/urchsearch/CopyofDSC00922.jpg

These guys I collected in the sea and here in my reef they are transfering eggs, I had them in a partitioned area of my reef. I raised the fry to adulthood.
They are kind of odd, I also invented and patented a feeder for them.
http://www.breedersregistry.org/Articles/v4_i3_paul_b/paul_b.htm

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh270/urchsearch/scan0003-1.jpg

I like rainsford gobies also
http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh270/urchsearch/BumblebeeGobi026.jpg

RBU1
01/18/2010, 01:39 PM
I appreciate your information and am always willing to learn from those that have been in the hobby for a long time. Thank you for sharring your lessons with us its great to see. Thank You Paul.
Now I have to figure out how to get that fish oil into my fish's diet....Guess I can soak my pellets in it....

Paul B
01/18/2010, 06:20 PM
RBU1, you can buy fish oil capsules, (I take them every day myself) put some pellets in a dry container and squeeze a drop of fish oil onto them and let it sit for a while, like 15 minutes or so.
Or you could go to an Asian store and buy fresh fish eggs, or you could feed live blackworms.
Good Luck.
Paul

RBU1
01/18/2010, 06:26 PM
RBU1, you can buy fish oil capsules, (I take them every day myself) put some pellets in a dry container and squeeze a drop of fish oil onto them and let it sit for a while, like 15 minutes or so.
Or you could go to an Asian store and buy fresh fish eggs, or you could feed live blackworms.
Good Luck.
Paul

I went to the asian market in search of salmon eggs. I was told before that they were great for fish. They only had a frozen box full and they were around $100.00. I am paranoid of putting live things in my tank for fear of introducing a parasite. I am a nervous person when it comes to parasites.......So I should look for fish eggs at the asian market? I will stop this week and see what I can find.

theyammieguy
01/18/2010, 06:40 PM
Are there any local fish we could use? Down in Galveston we have mullet, mud minnows, and shad, to name a few.

Paul B
01/18/2010, 06:52 PM
Don't pay $100.00 for salmon eggs, I get a load of them for under ten bucks. You could use any salt water fish eggs. Try to get the smallest amount you can get and keep out the air and freeze them in small containers. Rinse them very well before you feed them to your fish or your skimmer will overflow gallons. Even if you rinse them well it will go nuts but not as bad. Try to get at least one egg into a fish every other day or so.
Use only salt water fish eggs. No trout, carp, or catfish eggs.

The problem with trying to feed fish is that you have to cut them up, when you do that, you have a slimy mess and the oil goes all over the place. If you can get tiny salt water fish that would be great but not easy to find. I am trying to get them to sell them frozen.
Can you get live blackworms?

RBU1
01/18/2010, 07:03 PM
Don't pay $100.00 for salmon eggs, I get a load of them for under ten bucks. You could use any salt water fish eggs. Try to get the smallest amount you can get and keep out the air and freeze them in small containers. Rinse them very well before you feed them to your fish or your skimmer will overflow gallons. Even if you rinse them well it will go nuts but not as bad. Try to get at least one egg into a fish every other day or so.
Use only salt water fish eggs. No trout, carp, or catfish eggs.

The problem with trying to feed fish is that you have to cut them up, when you do that, you have a slimy mess and the oil goes all over the place. If you can get tiny salt water fish that would be great but not easy to find. I am trying to get them to sell them frozen.
Can you get live blackworms?


I can order live blackworms from the place in California but like I said I am paranoid about introducing something bad to my tank with live food. I QT everything and treat all my fish in copper for 4 weeks before they go in my tank.

Paul B
01/19/2010, 04:29 AM
Blackworms are freshwater animals and if you are worried about paracites, any freshwater paracite that may be included with the worms will not live in saltwater. The worms only live about a minute in salt water.
And if you are still worried, remember that I have been feeding live blackworms to my tank, almost every day from before Nixon was president.
Look him up, he was an old guy that died a long time ago.
In the sea fish only eat live food. :fish1:

RBU1
01/19/2010, 05:46 AM
Blackworms are freshwater animals and if you are worried about paracites, any freshwater paracite that may be included with the worms will not live in saltwater. The worms only live about a minute in salt water.
And if you are still worried, remember that I have been feeding live blackworms to my tank, almost every day from before Nixon was president.
Look him up, he was an old guy that died a long time ago.
In the sea fish only eat live food. :fish1:


Taken into advisement...

Yeah you are old....:lmao:

Paul B
01/19/2010, 06:34 AM
Yeah you are old....


Yes I am and proud of it. :wavehand:

lostintheocean
01/19/2010, 07:27 AM
Ich is easisly prevented and avoided. I have been reefing for 6 years and have never had any ich in my display. If you get an animal with ICH QT untill it is gone thus no more ich. It is like asking if cancer always present in humans.

RBU1
01/19/2010, 07:32 AM
Ich is easisly prevented and avoided. I have been reefing for 6 years and have never had any ich in my display. If you get an animal with ICH QT untill it is gone thus no more ich. It is like asking if cancer always present in humans.


How can you tell if the animal has ich....Its not always viewable you know....Everything should be put in QT, ich or no ich.

cpittmx
01/19/2010, 08:18 AM
Ich is easisly prevented and avoided. I have been reefing for 6 years and have never had any ich in my display. If you get an animal with ICH QT untill it is gone thus no more ich. It is like asking if cancer always present in humans.

could you explain further how to easily prevent and avoid ich? I see you mention treating once you have failed to prevent or avoid.

RBU1
01/19/2010, 08:24 AM
could you explain further how to easily prevent and avoid ich? I see you mention treating once you have failed to prevent or avoid.

Nothing is easy in this hobby...This person is speaking without much thought....

cpittmx
01/19/2010, 08:57 AM
Nothing is easy in this hobby...This person is speaking without much thought....

I thought that was the case. Unfortunately I was recently laid low by ICH. I learned a few valuable lessons, but unfortunately a couple clowns lost the battle. I will be more prepared in the future to treat and will also be practicing preventative QT. I currently have just two fish in the tank both seem healthy so far, I'm trying to decide whether I need to remove them to QT and leave tank fishless for 6 weeks or not....can ich complete its life cycle without a noticeable infestation on fish. So that if I leave just those fish in the tank for 6 weeks and they remain healthy will the tank be ICH free or does the tank need to be fishless?

RBU1
01/19/2010, 09:18 AM
I thought that was the case. Unfortunately I was recently laid low by ICH. I learned a few valuable lessons, but unfortunately a couple clowns lost the battle. I will be more prepared in the future to treat and will also be practicing preventative QT. I currently have just two fish in the tank both seem healthy so far, I'm trying to decide whether I need to remove them to QT and leave tank fishless for 6 weeks or not....can ich complete its life cycle without a noticeable infestation on fish. So that if I leave just those fish in the tank for 6 weeks and they remain healthy will the tank be ICH free or does the tank need to be fishless?

You must remove all fish from the tank you are trying to get to be ich free. Even though the fish does not show signs it is still a host. I tell people to leave the tank fishless for 12 weeks. I would set up a QT make sure it is cycled then transfer your fish over. Any new addition to that tank should go thru a proper QT. I prefer to treat all fish with 4 weeks of cupramine and 1 week of prazipro.

rick s
01/19/2010, 09:29 AM
I prefer to treat all fish with 4 weeks of cupramine and 1 week of prazipro. What concentration of Cupramine do you use and what test kit do you use? I am not having success with Cupramine. I lose some fish and have a very hard time reading the color change test kits. It's very hard to tell what the concentration is in my QT tank.

Thanks,

cpittmx
01/19/2010, 09:34 AM
Ok, so I was just getting ready to start adding corals. Is it ok to add corals as long as I'm careful to not add water from lfs? Also, what is the best way to do this? I was thinking after acclimating to have another container with just water from display tank to rinse before placing the specimen in DT.

RBU1
01/19/2010, 09:39 AM
Ok, so I was just getting ready to start adding corals. Is it ok to add corals as long as I'm careful to not add water from lfs? Also, what is the best way to do this? I was thinking after acclimating to have another container with just water from display tank to rinse before placing the specimen in DT.

Well this is just me I am a little more paranoid then most. I put nothing in my tank unless it has been thru QT. Corals are tricky not sure what I am going to do with that but for now I am not adding any. Inverts...I am looking at a place now that only sells inverts so the chances of getting a parasite are greatly reduced. If you add a coral to your main tank I would start my fallow period after that was added. So if you add it today I would wait 12 weeks from today.

RBU1
01/19/2010, 09:44 AM
What concentration of Cupramine do you use and what test kit do you use? I am not having success with Cupramine. I lose some fish and have a very hard time reading the color change test kits. It's very hard to tell what the concentration is in my QT tank.

Thanks,

In my opinion the trick to any copper treatment is add it slow. The instructions on Cupramin state 16 drops per 10.5 gallons of water wait 48 hours then repeat. So lets say you have a 10.5 gallon tank for ease of figuring this out. I would take that 16 drops and cut it in half making it 8 drops. I would add that wait 48 hours making sure the fish are still eating and acting like normal the add the next 8 drops and so on till you get to the final 32 drops. The final 32 drops would get you to the .5 treatment range and I would leave it there for 4 weeks, not 2 like the Seachem bottle states. If you call Seachem they will tell you to treat for 4 weeks not 2.

For new fish going thru QT I have learned that making sure they are eating good for a week or 2 before starting copper is a BIG help. Copper can supress appetite so making sure the fish is eating well before starting a treatment is a BIG help....

I have been using the Salifert kit. THey are all a PITA but I think salifert works best for me. I also like the Red Sea one...

meco65
01/19/2010, 10:00 AM
From Advanced Aquarist's online magazine.
In recent years, hyposalinity therapy has become widely popular for the treatment of Cryptocaryon irritans or what is commonly referred to as “saltwater ich.” Hyposalinity therapy consists of manipulating the salinity of the water and maintaining marine teleost fish in a hyposaline environment. The salinity range for this treatment is generally 12-16ppt. This method gives aquarists an option to using copper-based medications or harsh chemicals to treat this common parasitic infection.
What is less well known are the other potentially beneficial applications for hyposalinity therapy with marine teleost fish. The most obvious of these is for the treatment of other types of external parasites, but there are more ways that it can be used. Hyposalinity can be employed in better acclimating recently transported fish, for quarantine, treating wounds, with antibiotics, getting fish to begin eating, conserving metabolic energy, improving growth and alleviating the effects of stress.
I am not suggesting that all marine fish be kept in hyposaline conditions indefinitely. What I am suggesting is being open to investigating the various potential applications for hyposalinity therapy.
There may be some concern that hyposaline conditions could be stressful to marine teleost fish, or otherwise potentially harmful. While this is true in extreme salinities, studies indicate that this is not the case in more moderate salinities that would be employed in hyposalinity therapy (Wu & Woo, 1983. Woo & Chung, 1995. McDonald & Grosell, 2006).
Natural Sea Water is much more saline than the internal fluids of marine fish. Because of this, they expend a considerable amount of energy to reduce the excessive salt load through the process of osmoregulation. The kidneys are not the primary site of electrolyte management in marine teleost fish (Stoskopf, 1993). Chloride cells in the gills excrete excess chloride and sodium. “The kidneys of marine fish do play a role in electrolyte excretion; however, there function is more important in the balance of magnesium and sulfate levels and not, as might be assumed, in sodium and chloride elimination” (Stoskopf, 1993).
There are a few precautions to take when employing hyposalinity therapy. Do not confuse salinity with Specific Gravity. An accurate refractometer or other device should be used each day to check the salinity. Plastic swing-arm type hydrometers are often too inaccurate for this purpose. The alkalinity should be kept up to prevent the pH from falling as it tends to drop in diluted saltwater. Check the pH on a daily basis. The salinity can be reduced rapidly when beginning treatment, provided the pH and temperature of the water do not differ from what the fish are used to. Take more time when raising the salinity back to normal after completion of treatment. You can raise the salinity a couple of points a day.
Acclimation and alleviating the effects of stress The effects of stress caused by capture, transport and handling is a major concern when acclimating fish, especially when they have been bagged for a prolonged period. Stress affects fish in two ways: it produces effects that disrupt or threaten homoestatic equilibrium and it induces adaptive behavioral and physiological responses (Wendelaar Bonga,1997). Osmoregulatory dysfunction is closely associated with stress in fish. This is recognized by an increase in osmolarity in saltwater species (Carmicheal et. al, 1984. Robertson et. al, 1988.). This can manifest in the loss of up to ten percent of body weight due to dehydration in one or two days (Sleet & Weber, 1982.). Reducing the salinity gradient between the water and the internal fluids of fish is effective in counteracting osmoregulatory dysfunction and other physiological responses to stress (Johnson & Metcalf, 1982. McDonald & Milligan, 1997.) With marine teleost species, this is accomplished by reducing the salinity of their environment.
Quickly acclimating recently transported, or otherwise stressed marine teleost fish to low salinity water will help them to recover normal homeostasis more rapidly. Marine fish are most sensitive to changes in temperature and pH during the acclimation period. Match these parameters in the quarantine tank closely to the shipment water, provided they are not at levels that are dangerous to the fish. Then the pH and temperature can be adjusted slowly over a couple of days to match the display aquarium.
QuarantinePlacing fish in hyposaline conditions during the quarantine period is a proactive approach to dealing with some types of external parasites. Rather than waiting for fish to exhibit signs of infection, why not be one step ahead? This can save time, improve an animals odds of survival and help protect the established livestock in the display aquarium. Hyposalinity therapy is an excellent treatment for Cryptocaryon irritans (saltwater ich). It can also be effective against some other types of parasites such as the Monogenetic trematode Neobenedenia melleni.
Hyposalinity is not an effective treatment for every possible external parasite that may be encountered. Be watchful for other possible parasites or infections during the quarantine period. I recommend maintaining the quarantine system, for a minimum of thirty days, at a salinity of 14ppt. A quarantine system with a matured biological filter will provide a much more stable environment than an un-cycled aquarium.
WoundsWhen marine fish have gill damage, open wounds, missing scales, or the mucus layer has been temporarily damaged, it places a heavy burden on the energy required to maintain osmotic balance. Wounds compromise the mucus/skin/scale barrier causing the efflux of fluids from the tissues of fish. This makes maintaining osmotic balance more difficult and costly energy-wise. If the fish are unable to keep up with the loss of fluids through osmosis it will lead to dehydration.
The loss of fluids can be counteracted by reducing the gradient between the internal fluids of the fish and the surrounding ambient water. For marine fish, this means simply reducing the salinity of the water. Employing a low salinity environment slows the loss of fluids due to osmosis through the damaged water barrier, conserving energy that would otherwise be expended for osmoregulation. A salinity that is close to isosmotic would be the most effective: the internal salinity of marine teleost fish is generally 11-12ppt.
Compromises to the mucus/scale/skin barrier also make fish more susceptible to opportunistic pathogens, especially bacteria. Products that contain polymers (polyvinylpyrrolidone or PVP) can provide a temporary layer of protection until the fish heal and the mucus layer recovers (Carmichael & Tomasso, 1988).
AntibioticsSome antibiotics work more efficiently in softer water than in full strength saltwater. For example: tetracyclines chelate divalent cations (calcium and magnesium). This inactivates tetracyclines and means that higher doses are required in hardwater (i.e. saltwater). All quinolones are also inhibited by high water hardness. Softer water (as compared to full strength saltwater) may help certain antibiotics to be more effective or allow them to be used in smaller doses.
BrooklynellaBrooklynella hostilis kills badly infected fish quickly as it damages skin and gill tissues. The damage to the skin causes compromises to the mucus/scale/skin barrier making the fish more permeable to water. This leads to an efflux of water from the fish causing dehydration. Chloride cells in the gills are responsible for excreting excess chloride and sodium. Damage to the gills caused by brooklynellosis makes it increasingly difficult for fish to rid themselves of excess salts. The cause of death in brooklynellosis is the loss of epithelial which leads to an inability to maintain osmotic balance.
While hyposalinity is not a cure for brooklynellosis in and of itself, it can be a useful tool. Placing the fish in a hyposalinity therapy may buy some precious time. In a hyposaline environment, fish with damaged skin and gills will be better able to maintain osmotic balance. The energy cost for maintaining osmotic balance will also be reduced.
The most effective treatment for Brooklynella hostilis is a series of three formalin dips. The dips should be administered in three day intervals at a dose of 1ml/gal for 45 minutes. The dip should be well aerated at a temperature of less than 80F.
Getting newly acquired fish to begin eating soonerEnvironmental conditions such as temperature, oxygen level and salinity affect the metabolism rates of fish. Their metabolism depends on the process of osmoregulation to provide a stable working environment.
Metabolism depends on
Nutrition and respiration for metabolites.
Osmoregulation to provide a stable working environment.
Excretion to remove useless or poisonous waste products
Digestion consumes metabolic energy. Since osmotic dysfunction goes hand in hand with stress in fish, we can expect that they will be expending a great deal of energy after a stressful event, such as handling, in recovering osmotic balance. This means that less energy is available for other functions such as digestion. There is a correlation between the resumption of feeding behaviors and the re-establishment of normal physiological status (homeostasis). Hyposalinity therapy will reduce the amount of energy required for osmoregulation, while decreasing the gradient between the internal fluids of the fish and the surrounding ambient water will speed recovery of osmotic balance.
Factors influencing feeding behaviors
Overall health
Water temperature
Security
Photo-period
Osmoregulatory balance
Conserving metabolic energyStress disturbs the normal physiological equilibrium or homeostasis of fish by forcing a reallocation of energy within its system. Fish survive stress with the expenditure of energy. Any response or adaptation to stress consumes energy that could otherwise be used for maintaining normal body functions such as growth, digestion, osmoregulation, disease resistance, healing and reproduction (Barton and Iwama, 1991).
Energy is like a cake with only so many pieces and stress consumes a portion of that cake.
The functions of normal physiological equilibrium such as tissue repair, locomotion, respiration and hydromineral regulation (osmoregulation) take priority over the investment activities of reproduction and growth. Since stress and functions of normal physiological equilibrium take precedence over growth and reproduction, then conserving metabolic energy should improve these performance activities. Hyposaline conditions conserve metabolic energy that would otherwise be expended for osmoregulation in marine teleost fish.
LymphocystisMaintaining osmotic balance normally consumes 25 to 50% of the metabolic energy in fish. The hypothesis behind suggesting the use of hyposalinity is that conserving metabolic energy, in this way, may make a larger portion available for healing and recovering from illness. While conserving energy through hyposalinity therapy is not a direct treatment for lymphocystis, I believe that it is a potential aid.
Improving growthYoung fish require a lot of energy for growth. For marine species, the more saline the environment is the more energy is used in osmoregulation. Studies indicate that many species of marine fish exhibit improved growth at salinities that are close to isosmotic (the salinity of the surrounding water is close to the internal salinities of the fish). These studies suggest that raising these species in hyposaline conditions can be advantageous for aquaculture (Lambert, et. al., 1994. Gaumet, et. al., 1995. Deacon, N. &Hecht, T., 1999.) The increase in growth rates are the results of improved food conversion efficiency. All plasma concentrations (except chloride) were unchanged, suggesting that fish were well adapted to their environment. Oxygen consumption was significantly decreased in the 19ppt and 10ppt salinity groups (Gaumet, et. al., 1995.)
Besides improved growth, there is evidence to support the idea that hyposaline conditions may be beneficial to hatcheries. “Like several other marine teleosts, growth and survival of juvenile H. kuda tended to peak in diluted seawater salinities of 15 and 20 ppt” (Hilomen-Garcia, 2003.)
Treating Cryptocaryon irritansHyposalinity has several advantages over the use of copper or harsh chemical for treating Cryptocaryonosis in fish. Hyposalinity is a safe and effective alternative that is non-toxic and does not cause stress to the fish when used correctly. Copper suppresses immune function and it is toxic to fish. It is also an unstable substance in the aquarium so the level should be tested twice a day. Some antibiotics are not safe to use in conjunction with copper. Carbon and chemical filtration pads cannot be used to maintain the water quality when using copper. There is also the problem of copper being difficult to remove from the aquarium after treatment is finished.
A salinity of 14ppt is recommended for treating Cryptocaryon irritans. This is an effective treatment the vast majority of the time. However it is possible to encounter an unusual strain that is resistant to low salinities. Treatment should continue for a minimum of three weeks, with thirty days being preferable. It usually takes a week or so for the telltale white spots to disappear. If the white spots re-appear then double check the salinity and make sure your refractometer is calibrated correctly.
ConclusionOver the years I have authored articles on various subjects related to fish health management that are of special interest to me. I enjoy studying and writing about my hobby, especially subjects that I think have not been covered extensively enough. Some examples of these subjects are Cryptocaryon irritans, Beta glucan, updating acclimation procedures, stress in fish, metabolism, energy use and feeding behaviors. Although these subjects may not seem to be directly related, I began to see a relationship evolve. This has led me to new ways of thinking about fish health management and how all of these subjects actually intertwine to form patterns. Researching and writing about each subject, gave me a deeper understanding and appreciation for all of the others.
The various ideas that I shared in this article may or may not be new to you. If you are skeptical or wonder about any of them, then I welcome that. Being skeptical is a way of showing concern and I trust that everyone in our wonderful hobby is concerned about the subject of fish health management. I hope this will encourage you to read more books and articles including the references that go with them. Perhaps you will see some of the same relationships and patterns evolve. Perhaps you will come up with your own opinions, new thoughts, or ideas.

Paul B
01/19/2010, 10:08 AM
can ich complete its life cycle without a noticeable infestation on fish.

It certainly can. If you see ich on the fins of a fish there is probably way more paracites in it's gills. Ich on a fishes fins does not even hardly hurt the fish directly, it is when there are so many paracites in it's gills that it affects breathing.
There are many different types of paracites many of which looks like what we call ich.
Sometimes the fish can have only a few paracites in it's gills and the paracite will eventually leave it's host to multiply so it can infect more fish but in many cases (for reasons that we don't exactly know even though many people think we do) the infection remains very low and you can see only a few spots for months or even years, and other times, in other tanks the paracite will decimate the fish population in a few days.
There is always ich in my tank, I don't see it and the fish exhibit no symptoms even if they are in my tank for many years.
I know it is there because if one of my fish is near death due to other things like jumping out, old age, getting into a fight and loseing etc. It will develop full scale ich before it dies. I have seen this dozens of times in my tank and with all the things I add from the sea and LFSs I know, without a doubt that ich is in my tank.
I don't care about it and I pay it no attention. I am sure in my own body I have all sorts of maladys that my (so far) healthy body is combating.
If you quarantine everything, you should be able to keep it out of your tank.
But hopefully, your fish are in a condition that they have some type of immunity from ich and other infections.

greenbean36191
01/19/2010, 10:26 AM
Meco, in the future could you just give us a link to the original and maybe a few passages you think are important? When you post the full article, the formatting gets lost so it's hard to read, plus it might not always be clear who wrote the article, who they were citing, or even what point you're trying to make by posting it.

FWIW though, while I agree that hyposalinity is preferable to copper for treatment of ich, I disagree with Terry on a lot of what he says in the article. A lot of the papers he cites are on fish that are either euryhaline (live in a wide range of salinities) or have fairly unique ways of osmoregulation. I think it's a big leap to extrapolate to stenohaline species and those that use different methods of osmoregulation like he does in suggesting that hyposalinity is generally less stressful for fish being acclimated to new conditions.

Paul B
01/19/2010, 10:27 AM
Meco, that is a very detailed explanation and quotes from many researchers and I do not disagree with any of their findings. Thank you for adding it. I would just like to add that everything that I have ever sent to an aquarium magazine for the last 20 years or on line magazine has been published.
I think I even have two or three articles in the magazine you mentioned.
I am not saying this because I know everything, far from it. I am mentioning it to show that while I have no credentials, I get published without questioning me.
This is not a good thing.
I could be a guy who can't keep a goldfish alive.
So while I am an intense reader, I question everything I read and wherever possable I do my own research.
Most of what I learned (or think I learned) was from diving with the animals I keep or through experience since the hobby started.
I don't mean recreational diving where you go to Aruba and dive with a bunch of tourists.
I mean laying on the sand, just to watch a pair of fish for an hour.
Over the years, I have changed my mind many times about many things including ich.
It is not a cut and dry disease, it is not even a disease.
I am just saying that we need much more research and all tanks are different.
If I started a new tank tomorrow, exactly the same as the tank I have now, I am sure I would have totally different outcomes.
There are just too many variables in this hobby but luckily for us, it is what makes it such a rewarding, worthwhile endeavour.
Some of you guys have some beautiful tanks.
Have a great day

reefgeezer
01/19/2010, 10:35 AM
Great Hyposalinity article - Thanks! Learn something new everyday.

RBU1
01/19/2010, 10:41 AM
Meco, in the future could you just give us a link to the original and maybe a few passages you think are important? When you post the full article, the formatting gets lost so it's hard to read, plus it might not always be clear who wrote the article, who they were citing, or even what point you're trying to make by posting it.

FWIW though, while I agree that hyposalinity is preferable to copper for treatment of ich, I disagree with Terry on a lot of what he says in the article. A lot of the papers he cites are on fish that are either euryhaline (live in a wide range of salinities) or have fairly unique ways of osmoregulation. I think it's a big leap to extrapolate to stenohaline species and those that use different methods of osmoregulation like he does in suggesting that hyposalinity is generally less stressful for fish being acclimated to new conditions.


Greenbean,

I would be interested in hearing why hyposalinity is preferable to copper for treatment of ich................

cpittmx
01/19/2010, 10:45 AM
Well this is just me I am a little more paranoid then most. I put nothing in my tank unless it has been thru QT. Corals are tricky not sure what I am going to do with that but for now I am not adding any. Inverts...I am looking at a place now that only sells inverts so the chances of getting a parasite are greatly reduced. If you add a coral to your main tank I would start my fallow period after that was added. So if you add it today I would wait 12 weeks from today.

So how do most people handle corals. If the tank is already fallow that is one thing to say that I start the twelve week countdown after the coral is added, but what how do I handle the addition of corals down the road when the tank is not fishless?

RBU1
01/19/2010, 10:54 AM
So how do most people handle corals. If the tank is already fallow that is one thing to say that I start the twelve week countdown after the coral is added, but what how do I handle the addition of corals down the road when the tank is not fishless?


Well the only proper way in my opinion is to QT them just like anything else. Unless you feel comfortable enough that the system they came from has no fish in it. If a system has no fish the ich can not host and will not survive. Knowing what I went thru I personally would stock my tank with the corals I want wait the 12 weeks then add fish, only after they have been QT'd of course.... This is not very practical and the chances of introducing the parasite on a coral is a great deal less then fish but the chance is always there....If corals are important to you I would set up a little tank to use as a coral QT nothing big and pretty just a place to keep them for 6-8 weeks before placing them in your tank.

SkyPapa
01/19/2010, 11:52 AM
So, how would you qt folks qt these healthy looking/acting fish; 5 anthias , 3 chromis, a hogfish, a one spot fox, a firefish, 4 damsels, and 2 clowns from seperate but connected tanks?

I mean the actual logistics of housing the fish not methods.

RBU1
01/19/2010, 12:01 PM
Not sure what you are asking...But I would set up a seperate tank large enough to house the animals and treat them....

greenbean36191
01/19/2010, 01:57 PM
Copper is toxic to inverts AND to fish, it's just less toxic to fish. It's the old hope the cure kills the disease before it kills the patient approach to treatment. Also it tends to be more difficult to keep it at therapeutic levels for several weeks than with hyposalinity.

Paul B
01/19/2010, 02:06 PM
It is true that copper is toxic to fish but it is also true that most medications are toxic to the patient in a higher dose such as chemo, and radiation.
Even aspirins will kill you if you overdose.
If you use copper you need to accurately measure how many gallons you are treating and test the concentration at least once a day, twice is better.

RBU1
01/19/2010, 02:38 PM
Copper is toxic to inverts AND to fish, it's just less toxic to fish. It's the old hope the cure kills the disease before it kills the patient approach to treatment. Also it tends to be more difficult to keep it at therapeutic levels for several weeks than with hyposalinity.

OK I guess you and I will differ in opinions on this topic. Hypo is a bigger PITA because you have to constantly change water and buffer PH. If you are off the slightest with your salinity your treatment is useless. Not to mention your bacteria for nitrification is greatly reduced in hypo. I prefer copper and not just regular copper Cuprmaine...

meco65
01/19/2010, 09:14 PM
Has anyone seen any info on how copper effects the bacteria in you tank.

MatthewLaw
01/19/2010, 09:32 PM
many people here have stated that if copper is used in a tank, then even after it is 'removed', there are still trace amounts that make keeping corals (near) impossible

RBU1
01/20/2010, 03:34 AM
Has anyone seen any info on how copper effects the bacteria in you tank.

Copper does very little to nothing to bacteria.

RBU1
01/20/2010, 03:34 AM
many people here have stated that if copper is used in a tank, then even after it is 'removed', there are still trace amounts that make keeping corals (near) impossible

Thats why you are supposed to use a seperate tank just for treating.

Paul B
01/20/2010, 05:06 AM
Has anyone seen any info on how copper effects the bacteria in you tank.


I am sure copper will slow down the reproduction of bacteria as it does kill a lot of plants and bacteria are palnts, kind of.
But it does not kill much bacteria.
I used to have copper in my tank continousely for years and I never noticed any change in nitrate levels or anything else.
Also I am still using that tank with the rocks and gravel that had all that copper in it.
It took years but it seems to all be out of my tank now.
I also like copper much better than hypo because copper kills paracites in a few days, ich often kills fish in two days. Copper will give the fish almost immediate relief.
But, yes, you need to dose it correctly. I have always used a copper/formulin formula and if I wanted to cure them in about a day, I would add quinicrine hydrocloride to the mix.

RBU1
01/20/2010, 05:49 AM
I am sure copper will slow down the reproduction of bacteria as it does kill a lot of plants and bacteria are palnts, kind of.
But it does not kill much bacteria.
I used to have copper in my tank continousely for years and I never noticed any change in nitrate levels or anything else.
Also I am still using that tank with the rocks and gravel that had all that copper in it.
It took years but it seems to all be out of my tank now.
I also like copper much better than hypo because copper kills paracites in a few days, ich often kills fish in two days. Copper will give the fish almost immediate relief.
But, yes, you need to dose it correctly. I have always used a copper/formulin formula and if I wanted to cure them in about a day, I would add quinicrine hydrocloride to the mix.


I agree with most of this. However copper not always will provide instant relief. Copper will only kill ich in the free floating stage and not while in cyst form. That is why it is important to treat for 4 weeks when using cupramine.

cpittmx
01/20/2010, 06:04 AM
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+4615+4616+4743&pcatid=4743


is this the product that most are using to treat ich whether the fish has a visible infestation or whether it is a just in case treatment. Also, in general what are the most have medications that a reefer should have on hand? I was looking at some of the different antibiotics but did not see any shelf life given for them. So I wasn't sure if you should just have them on hand if they may not be effective a few months down the road.

tmgrash
01/20/2010, 07:22 AM
I appreciate your information and am always willing to learn from those that have been in the hobby for a long time. Thank you for sharring your lessons with us its great to see. Thank You Paul.
Now I have to figure out how to get that fish oil into my fish's diet....Guess I can soak my pellets in it....

Interestingly enough, I just purchased an acro frag from Liveaquaria and they included a free pack of "Instant ocean, Marine blend, omnivore diet" food. Apparently its new, it comes in little pouches and is in gel form. I read the ingredients, and sure enough it has fish oil in it. My fish seem to love it so far.

RBU1
01/20/2010, 08:13 AM
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+4615+4616+4743&pcatid=4743


is this the product that most are using to treat ich whether the fish has a visible infestation or whether it is a just in case treatment. Also, in general what are the most have medications that a reefer should have on hand? I was looking at some of the different antibiotics but did not see any shelf life given for them. So I wasn't sure if you should just have them on hand if they may not be effective a few months down the road.

Yes that is cupramine. I use it to treat all my fish in QT.

What else should you have on hand?? Maybe cuprisorb and carbon to remove the copper in an emergency....

As far as antibiotics they may have a shelf life.

Paraguard is also a good Seachem treatment.

RBU1
01/20/2010, 08:14 AM
Interestingly enough, I just purchased an acro frag from Liveaquaria and they included a free pack of "Instant ocean, Marine blend, omnivore diet" food. Apparently its new, it comes in little pouches and is in gel form. I read the ingredients, and sure enough it has fish oil in it. My fish seem to love it so far.


Interesting Thank You.....Paul what do you think?

meco65
01/20/2010, 09:37 AM
I have heard that (fresh water dip) will help to kill the ICH that is on the fish, is this true? If so how long would you leave the fish in the fresh water?

rick s
01/20/2010, 10:20 AM
I am new to Cupramine. The problem I am having is some fish lose their appetite. I placed 3 new fish in my cycled QT tank. They ate fine for days. I added the Cupramine as directed, and after a few days, they stopped eating. Two have died from starvation. The other still eats lke a pig. This is my second round of fish in QT. No matter what I try, some fish stop eating, such as; Bartlett Anthias, Tasseled Filefish, and Hector Gobies. Is there anything else I can do to get them to eat?

Also, I have the specific gravity of the QT tank down to 1.019 to help with the stress of being in QT. Does that come into play with my Cupramine problems?

wooden_reefer
01/20/2010, 10:41 AM
Copper is toxic to inverts AND to fish, it's just less toxic to fish. It's the old hope the cure kills the disease before it kills the patient approach to treatment. Also it tends to be more difficult to keep it at therapeutic levels for several weeks than with hyposalinity.

My experience concurs with a few older books that pulses of copper is also or almost as effective as constant level.


At the beginning over 25 years ago I tested for copper every time I pulsed, but then found the drop so predictable that I have been testing for copper every several times I pulse. Straight copper pulses to achieve 0.2 to 0.4 ppm metallic are safe and effective in a calcareous environment for the most part.There is little chance that the creep can be significant if every pulse you add 0.25 ppm.

The behavior of the fish is also an indication. If the fish has a voracious appetite and are very active, they are not suffering from copper poisoning. Exposure to excess copper is limited to a few hours in a calcareous envirnoment.

john32
01/20/2010, 10:43 AM
I have heard this to, that all fish have ich and it only comes out when that fish is stressed.

RBU1
01/20/2010, 10:53 AM
I have heard that (fresh water dip) will help to kill the ICH that is on the fish, is this true? If so how long would you leave the fish in the fresh water?

No fresh water dips do not work with ich. Flukes is a different story. Based on information that was told to me inorder for a FW dip to kill ich the fish would die also.

RBU1
01/20/2010, 10:55 AM
I am new to Cupramine. The problem I am having is some fish lose their appetite. I placed 3 new fish in my cycled QT tank. They ate fine for days. I added the Cupramine as directed, and after a few days, they stopped eating. Two have died from starvation. The other still eats lke a pig. This is my second round of fish in QT. No matter what I try, some fish stop eating, such as; Bartlett Anthias, Tasseled Filefish, and Hector Gobies. Is there anything else I can do to get them to eat?

Also, I have the specific gravity of the QT tank down to 1.019 to help with the stress of being in QT. Does that come into play with my Cupramine problems?

Not sure but it could. Seachem has always to ld me to keep my specific gravity in normal range 1.025ish...

Did you add the Cupramine really slow? or did you just follow the instructions on the bottle?

I would feed the fish heavy for a week or 2 before adding Cupramine then I would add the cuprmaine REALLY slow over the course of a week or 2.

RBU1
01/20/2010, 10:56 AM
I have heard this to, that all fish have ich and it only comes out when that fish is stressed.

Well my readings tell me this is not true. Ich is a parasite and inorder for the fish to have ich it must be introduced.....

john32
01/20/2010, 11:10 AM
quoted from Bob fenner on Wet Web Meddia "<My opinion and experience point that all fish carry Cryptocaryon and Oodinium at all times and something triggers the parasites to multiply out of control and endanger the fish.>"

john32
01/20/2010, 11:11 AM
sorry here it is My opinion and experience point that all fish carry Cryptocaryon and Oodinium at all times and something triggers the parasites to multiply out of control and endanger the fish. This came from Bob Fenner on Wet Web Media

RBU1
01/20/2010, 11:14 AM
sorry here it is My opinion and experience point that all fish carry Cryptocaryon and Oodinium at all times and something triggers the parasites to multiply out of control and endanger the fish. This came from Bob Fenner on Wet Web Media

Not sure I bellieve this theory......

Hopefully some others will chime in.

RBU1
01/20/2010, 11:21 AM
Some reading for you....

http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums/fish-diseases-treatments/23132-marine-ich-myths-facts.html

Paul B
01/20/2010, 12:59 PM
I read the ingredients, and sure enough it has fish oil in it. My fish seem to love it so far.


They must have heard me, I have been advocating it for years :cool:

As to weather all wild fish carry ich, I would bet most of them do.
Wild fish are not bothered in the least by ich as a few paracites will do no harm. It is only a problem in a tank where the hoards of newly hatched paracites have no where to go except on your fish. In the sea there is very little chance for a paracite to locate a fish.

wooden_reefer
01/20/2010, 02:25 PM
I have heard this to, that all fish have ich and it only comes out when that fish is stressed.

May be the first fish in a tank becoming heavily infested in a tank is related to stress.

Thereafter it is not a matter of stress, it will likely be a matter of numbers in the confinement of a tank, no dilution of the ocean, re-infestation, or "superinfection". 1000x time higher concentration of ich as in balance.

Immunity against ich is likely concentration sensitive, more so than that against bacteria.

Ich is really not a disease; it is a distorted unnatural parasitic phenomenon in physical confinement.

Paul B
01/20/2010, 03:31 PM
However copper not always will provide instant relief.
Actually I said, "almost" because while it will not remove paracites imbedded in the gills, it will prohibit new paracites from attaching, also copper makes the fish exude massive amounts of slime that will also help in removing skin paracites.
But of course, no medication is immediate, for fish or even us.

meco65
01/23/2010, 05:30 PM
Ichy ichy ich

Roy G. Biv
01/23/2010, 07:15 PM
My tank has ich and I dont care. It rarely breaks out in the tank because all of the fish are strong and healthy. When the tank gets a beakout it is very minimal and goes away quickly. Just my opinion.

forrealb50
01/23/2010, 07:51 PM
I have been debating the QT process for some time now. I tried it and successfully killed all the ich on the fish. Then I added a bunch of inverts and the tank got ich (did not quarantine the inverts). I decided the cost and work of running a dedicated QT to house all inverts, corals, fish, etc is not worth it (to avoid ich). I have ich in my tank now and I just keep the water in check and make sure all the fish are fat and happy. I only have a few fish in my tank and one time and really focus more on corals. I feel it’s easier to manage a tank with ich than to manage the whole QT process.

However, if I had fish that cost hundreds of dollars then I would do things much differently. No fish in my tank cost more than 40-50 dollars.

sedor
01/23/2010, 08:06 PM
I don't personally use a QT, but I would never say they are a bad idea. Ich should be the least of your concerns when QTing a new fish. There are far more potent diseases out there that can in fact take down a tank. A QT is also good to get a picky fish eating before he has to face the rest of the gang and fight for his food.

meco65
01/23/2010, 08:11 PM
A QT is also good to get a picky fish eating before he has to face the rest of the gang and fight for his food.
Good point sedor.

RBU1
01/24/2010, 05:41 AM
My tank has ich and I dont care. It rarely breaks out in the tank because all of the fish are strong and healthy. When the tank gets a beakout it is very minimal and goes away quickly. Just my opinion.

I used to think the same way. Till I lost my tank twice.

RBU1
01/24/2010, 05:44 AM
I have been debating the QT process for some time now. I tried it and successfully killed all the ich on the fish. Then I added a bunch of inverts and the tank got ich (did not quarantine the inverts). I decided the cost and work of running a dedicated QT to house all inverts, corals, fish, etc is not worth it (to avoid ich). I have ich in my tank now and I just keep the water in check and make sure all the fish are fat and happy. I only have a few fish in my tank and one time and really focus more on corals. I feel it’s easier to manage a tank with ich than to manage the whole QT process.

However, if I had fish that cost hundreds of dollars then I would do things much differently. No fish in my tank cost more than 40-50 dollars.

I would be interesting in hearing a little more about this. It is always possible to add ich to a tank with inverts but the chances are a great deal less then with fish. First is your main tank did you ever see fish in it with ich prior to adding the inverts? Did you QT all the fish in your main tank then you added inverts and saw ich?

meco65
01/31/2010, 06:20 PM
bump

DayFive
02/04/2010, 10:27 PM
There are so many different opinions on ICH. Now I know why my knowledge of the subject is distorted. I recently posted some of my thoughts on another sight (MASC) and with no haste I was told what was up. Because of that I have spent several hours over the last week researching ICH and have found many things I thought to be true were myths or at least someone thinks they are.

Paul B - I think you are right on the money. I believe it is more important to keep fish thriving by feeding and water quality than it is to QT. I don’t QT and I have had problems with ICH. I introduced a CBB in my 75g tank. Because I got the fish at a frag swap during Colorado winter the water got a bit cold. The fish had white spots within a day maybe from the temp swing (70-80). I feed a combination of PE mysis shrimp and Rod's fish food soaked in garlic. Rods Ingredients are: (Shrimp, Scallop, Oyster, Clam, Squid, Octopus, Perch, Green Nori (porphyra sp), Red unroasted nori (porphyra sp) Mysis, Krill, Pacific plankton (Euphausia sp.) Brine shrimp, Frozen red cyclops, Fish eggs, Oyster eggs, Golden pearls (all sizes), Broccoli, carrot, Garlic, Selco, Astaxanthin (Haematococcus pluvialis), Beta-meal (Dunalliella Salina), Freshly harvested rotifers, freshly hatched baby brine shrimp.) Some of those Ingredients are mentioned in your article Paul B. Within a week all spots were gone and the fish is fine. I am going to introduce more fish oils as a result of this thread.

The more I learn about this hobby the more I realize how much I don’t know. Thank you all for your words of wisdom.

Paul B
02/05/2010, 04:59 AM
(Shrimp, Scallop, Oyster, Clam, Squid, Octopus, Perch, Green Nori (porphyra sp), Red unroasted nori (porphyra sp) Mysis, Krill, Pacific plankton (Euphausia sp.) Brine shrimp, Frozen red cyclops, Fish eggs, Oyster eggs, Golden pearls (all sizes), Broccoli, carrot, Garlic,

Sounds like what I am having for dinner tonight. :lol2:

glaukos
02/05/2010, 04:43 PM
i just can't understand how in the same tank
some fish can be full of ich spots and some be more clear
than the glass.

how in the same tank a tang can die from ich and the other couldn't care less

everybody say that a fish that eats will survive
and i lost a glaucopareious that was eating like a pig and a 2 dispar anthias(out of the 7 total) got through it and they didn't even see the food!

ritter6788
02/05/2010, 04:51 PM
Sounds like what I am having for dinner tonight. :lol2:

How does that Pacific Plankton taste?:hmm5:

Paul B
02/06/2010, 04:44 AM
How does that Pacific Plankton taste?


Just like the Atlantic.

All fish have a slime coating which offers fish some protection from ich and bacteria, but not much. In some fish like a mandarin, the slime is very thick in tangs it is thin.
This and the differences in fish is why some fish get it and some don't. Some fish are healthier than others and may have more of an immunity. Mayn times an entire tank of fish will be lose except for one or two individuals.
Not everyone on earth died of the Plague during the dark ages.

meco65
02/12/2010, 12:58 AM
wow

Paul B
02/12/2010, 08:20 AM
Wow what?