Does 2 Part need to be dosed in equal amounts?

[customdusty]

Is it ok if I dose double the amount of calcium than I do the alkalinity portion? My alkalinity always seems to be ok 8-8.5 dkh consistently, however my calcium is low (300ppm).

I don't want to raise my alkalinity any more, in fact I want to bring it down some. I am converting my ULNS to Zeovit, and it is advised to not exceed 8.0 dkh.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

When maintaining alkalinity with a good two part, calcium will only drop if you do water changes with a low calcium mix. Otherwise, it will stay about where it is.

I would not alter the daily dose. If you really believe that result (I'm skeptical), I’d boost the calcium to 420 ppm in a few big manual doses, then go back to equal parts dosing.

There is not a scenario where the calcium need is twice the alkalinity need aside from water changes with a very low calcium mix, or if you are adding other alkalinity supplements.

That said, there is not a "problem" with dosing unequal parts, I just think it is far more likely that there is some underlying misunderstanding rather than off balanced demand.

This has more:

When Do Calcium and Alkalinity Demand Not Exactly Balance?
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-12/rhf/index.htm

[customdusty]

I do a 20% water change every 2 weeks with Reefcrystals.

I have two different test kits for everything I test, so I suppose it could be possible that both of my test kits are bad?

Alkalinity tests are done with Elos and Seachem. Calcium is Elos and API. Both of the Elos test kits are brand new, and correlate rather well with the other brands.

For the past few months I have been maintaining the same 2 part dosage while also topping off with kalkwasser, however I am trying to wean off of the kalkwasser and supplement only with the 2 part.

I don't test my alkalinity and calcium that frequently, maybe once a month if that often. Stagnant growth for the past month or so is what prompted me to start performing some more regular tests, leading to this finding.

There was a point a while back where I did add a bunch of SPS frags, nearly doubling the amount I had in the tank - although I did not make any immediate changes to my dosing to account for the additional demand. I am wondering now if that is what I am seeing.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Unless you have added a lot of extra alkalinity somehow, I don't believe there is any way to get to 300 ppm calcium using Reef Crystals at close to NSW salinity. The calcium kit may be in error.

[customdusty]

I didn't trust the API calcium test results, so I bought the Elos 2 weeks ago to double check. I guess with my luck I could have 2 faulty calcium test kits that read exactly the same.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Make a new batch of the salt mix and try testing that. :)

[customdusty]

Make a new batch of the salt mix and try testing that. :)

I'll do that and post the results.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

:thumbsup:

Good luck. :)

[PowermanKW]

So for this discussion.... seems there can be times when parts are not equal.... but those times seem to be caused by initial imbalance, or doing large or regular water changes with salt water that is not the same as what you have level wise.

So if all things are equal, levels are where you want, and saltwater used for water changes is equal to that.... then dosing should be done in equal parts right?

So if all things are equal... how much of a mis match is "normal"? Is there ever going to be a scenario where one would dose 3x Ca to Alk and that be OK?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

seems there can be times when parts are not equal.... but those times seem to be caused by initial imbalance, or doing large or regular water changes with salt water that is not the same as what you have level wise.

That is my contention, yes. A few more minor effects relating to the nitrogen cycle depleting alkalintiy, sulfur denitrators depleting alkalinity etc, detailed in the article. :)

So if all things are equal... how much of a mis match is "normal"? Is there ever going to be a scenario where one would dose 3x Ca to Alk and that be OK?

Not long term, no.

[Montreal Ray]

Sorry for the threadjack

Mr. Randy Holmes-Farley,

I'm currently dosing with EVS 2-part, been doing so for a few days now. Everything seems stable (crossing fingers). I am recovering from a disastrous battle from using "unbalanced" products....I wish I would have read your articles a few months back. Would have saved me a big headache!


My question is. Can I add the 2 part to my auto top-off water? Does the fresh water cause I'll effects if the two get mixed?

thank you!

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

You can add either part to top off, but not both parts. If you do that, I'd put the alk part in the top off. You might only dose the calcium part a couple of times a week in that instance. :)

[Montreal Ray]

You can add either part to top off, but not both parts. If you do that, I'd put the alk part in the top off. You might only dose the calcium part a couple of times a week in that instance. :)

Thanks for the reply! I will try that.

[sur4die]

For the past few months I have been maintaining the same 2 part dosage while also topping off with kalkwasser, however I am trying to wean off of the kalkwasser and supplement only with the 2 part.


I find that even though it shouldn't, kalk keeps my alk higher. i would do either the kalk or the 2 part, but not both at the same time.

[kgross]

I find that even though it shouldn't, kalk keeps my alk higher. i would do either the kalk or the 2 part, but not both at the same time.

Kalk will not keep up with a very high demand so it is pretty common to do both at the same time and it will work fine.



Kim

[customdusty]

This is a comparison of my system water vs. new, fresh saltwater. The test is an Elos Calcium test just being done in an API test tube. The indicator of this test is that you count drops as the solution changes from bright pink to blue.

My tank water is on the left, and currently measures 300ppm. The fresh saltwater on the right has the same number of drops (300ppm).

http://i435.photobucket.com/albums/qq77/customdusty/DSCN0624.jpg


This next one is of the same test, just with the fresh saltwater now measuring 600ppm.

http://i435.photobucket.com/albums/qq77/customdusty/DSCN0625.jpg

[azcummins]

the fresh SW has a calcium count of 600? That seems high.

[luther1200]

There is a lot more water in the vial on the right, that could easily throw your test results out of whack.


What do you mean by 600ppm?

[customdusty]

The pictures are from my 3rd run of the test in a row. I tried to see what impact the volume of water had on the test so I put a little more on the one that kept testing high.

The ppm of the freshly mixed saltwater was testing 600 ppm, which seemed odd to me so I am going to let the saltwater mix for 24 hours and repeat the test.

[bertoni]

Reef Crystals should be at about 490 ppm at SG 1.0264.

[customdusty]

Reef Crystals should be at about 490 ppm at SG 1.0264.

If I did not let the the new saltwater mix long enough prior to testing, would this influence my test result?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

It could only give a high result if you got a portion of the solid and/or liquid that did not reflect the remainder of the batch.

[customdusty]

I repeated all of the tests today 3 times each with the API kit and 3 times with the Elos kit. Based on the results, I think my Elos kit is defective.

All results in ppm

Current water: Elos 300, 300, 300 - API 320, 340, 340

Fresh mix: Elos 700, 700, 700 - API 500, 500, 500

So it looks like the API is reading more accurately, but still my calcium seems low.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

So assuming that is accurate, I'd make a one time boost (in 2-3 doses) of 100 ppm (total) to the calcium using calcium chloride. :)

[customdusty]

So assuming that is accurate, I'd make a one time boost (in 2-3 doses) of 100 ppm (total) to the calcium using calcium chloride. :)

And I would have to monitor it to see if it drifts and then do periodic corrections, or increase my daily dosing eventually?

[bertoni]

You'll have to monitor the alkalinity level frequently to guide the dosage and correction. Once the calcium and alkalinity are both at a good level, calcium testing should only be needed every month or two. Calcium changes less rapidly than alkalinity, on a percentage basis, so testing it frequently generally picks up a lot of noise.

[customdusty]

If I stop my 2 part dosing all together, how fast would I expect to see my alkalinity start to drop? I assume it is totally based on consumption, but how long roughly would it take to make a noticeable drop where I can rule out test variation - like from 9 down to 7 dkh? I'm trying to make sense of my dosing regiment to get it better dialed in so I can try and avoid these imbalances.

[bertoni]

Sorry for the delay. I've been out on vacation. How is the alkalinity doing? It should drop if dosing is stopped, assuming water changes and topoff don't raise alkalinity.

[customdusty]

Alkalinity is back to normal. I don't think the overdose was as significant as I originally did. With the calcium, I got that raised up over the course of 3 doses.

I did end up with RTN on many of my acros, and 25% are complete losses. I had also just started the Zeo system about a week or so prior, so the losses could also be attribute to those changes as well.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Sorry to hear about the loses.

For whatever reason, the zeovit system (and maybe other ULNS systems) seem unusually sensitive to alkalinity.

[customdusty]

There has to be some scientific explanation (chemical, biological, whatever) for why ULNS systems require a lower alkalinity target and tighter control over it.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Likely yes. As soon as someone figures it out, we'll all be happier. :D

[customdusty]

Likely yes. As soon as someone figures it out, we'll all be happier. :D

How can you sleep at night not knowing the answer? :lol:

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

:lol:

Happy reefing. :D