question about cultivating copepods

[Jason7504]

im gonna be cultivating copepods and plan on using a 1g container with an air pump and phyto. but ive heard some conflicting opinions about using an air pump on a smaller container than 5g. Some say that an air pump shouldn't be used on a tank smaller than 5g. is this true?

[Jeff]

Try a small air pump to keep the phyto suspended but not overly aggitated.

[Jason7504]

ok well i can't find a air pump small enough for my 1g jug..the smallest one i got even with a valve is too strong. so I can over aggitate?

[slief]

You might need a better valve or a pair of valves and a splitter. Last time I tried raising copepods I used a 5 gallon tank and set the air to bubble a few times a second. You are not airating so much as you are creating some sort of current.

Now I will say that I had little success in raising them so I am not an expert but I did do a fair amount of homework and my failure was likely because I paid it no attention at all other than probably overfeeding them..

[spleify]

I never had an air pump on my cultures when I had them, and I had small containers also. I cultured them for a couple of years.

[Jason7504]

don't the air pumps prevent the phyto from forming a slime on top?

[Jason7504]

bump

[ChadTheSpike]

You mention a gallon container and a gallon jug... You are right about about the slime on the surface...
My concern here would be twofold, type of copepod and the vessel...
What kind of copepods (harpacticoid or calanoid) do you plan on cultivating?
If harpacticoid, a shallower container than a jug is best because the pods need more 'crawling' room. One of these shallow containers (like a paint pan) probably doesnt need to have any air agitation added (Ill throw in here that it is arguable if phyto is the best choice of foods for harpacticoids, but that's another question).
If calanoid, more of a jug like container is a better choice (more swimming room) and since the surface area to volume is lower, I probably would agitate with air (try a tee off the small pump with two throttle valves, this way you can lower one as much as possible, and if it is still too much flow, you can vent from the other valve and lower the air flow further). The key with agitation is a low bubble, enough flow to promote surface agitation, but not enough flow to disturb the pods (appropriate phyto is probably the best choice here).

[Jason7504]

well it would be a mix of harpacticoid and calanoid

[ChadTheSpike]

What do you wish to accomplish by culturing copepods?
I ask because the setups to culture harpacticoid and calanoid pods are slightly different, to me, if you are trying to meet both of their needs in a sustainable and harvestable culture, you will be no where near as efficient as you could be by choosing one and going with it.

[Jason7504]

as food for my mandrain and I got some Ocean Pod cultures that i was going to cultivate and there a mix i believe

[ChadTheSpike]

I think you are right about it being a mix, although Ill put money that ocean pods cultures them separately then combines them for shipping the final product.
Mandarin's are one of the few reasons to specifically target harpacticoids. If it were me, I would only do harpacticoids because I think the overall production would be higher, also you do not have to feed with phyto as they are micro detrivores... you may be bettor off choosing a fish food (like ground up new life spectrum or something similar), there are pros and cons either way, just understand what they are first. I have some pdf culture methods I can share if you are interested.

[Jason7504]

man i just ordered like 3 bottles of phyto too lol so i can't feed harpacticoids phyto?

ok sure i'm interested in the pdf culture methods

[Jason7504]

and is 3000 pods too big of a dose to start out with in a smaller container?

[ChadTheSpike]

Its not a matter of you cant feed phyto to harpacticoid pods, its more that phyto is in the water column, harpacticoids arent (think floaty pods = floaty foods, sinking pods = sinking foods). Phyto does die, sink and turn into edible detritus that is then consumed by the pods... but I dont consider it to be the best way to feed... It does have the side benefit of filtering some nutrients from the water though... not entirely bad.
3000 seems a little high to start, but its certainly not peak density in a gallon of water its only around 13 pods/cubic inch. I would recommend having two cultures going though... minimizes the chances of total loss if one of the cultures crashes.
Ill attach those links when I get home, might be tomorrow, but I wont forget.

[Jason7504]

ok i could always split up the 3000 pods into 2 cultures..and I won't need to aerate with the harp pods right?

so the best way is to use phyto and some detrius or ground up flake food?

[ChadTheSpike]

If you have a wide flat container (the best type) less than a few gallons you dont need to aerate, I probably would if the container is taller than it is wide (but I wouldnt recommend using this type of container).
I usually dont use phyto at all on my harp cultures, but I do weekly 'water changes' by draining half the container into my tank and adding old tank water. You could try the phyto and ground flake food idea, it might work well, just keep an eye on water quality.
If things start going downhill, you can always try to salvage the culture by draining all of the water through a plankton net, doing a 100% water change, then dumping the plankton net contents back into the tank.

[Jason7504]

well could i just cut like the top 3/4 of the bottle off?

can you post pics of the container that you use? or of your set up?

[Jason7504]

and can i just suck up some of the detrius that has accumulated in my sump to feed them?

[Damia713]

does anyone have a pic of their pod tanks that would be nice. I don't know but I think all of my pods are dead or I can't see them anymore. I should probably try to up their numbers.

[ChadTheSpike]

what is your vessel? I would be worried about making it too small if you are cutting 75% of the volume away.
The containers intended for paint rollers work well (the plastic liners), you can also get ~5 gallon plastic containers from HD intended for concrete mixing for cheap as well.
Ill post of pic of what I have... It is really simple, I have calanoid pods right now in a 10g tank with two outlets from an air pump, its really simple.
The detritus from your tank will work to feed them, but it likely wont be enough or of the proper quality to make your pods nutritious for your mandarin. I use tank water, but it doesnt have a lot of detritus in it. Fish food of good quality is best.

[briangg57]

I need to tag along. I was just looking into a HOB refugium for pods but I haven't done enough research yet. Please keep the info coming, this is great. Perfect timing for this thread.

[Jason7504]

what is your vessel? I would be worried about making it too small if you are cutting 75% of the volume away.
The containers intended for paint rollers work well (the plastic liners), you can also get ~5 gallon plastic containers from HD intended for concrete mixing for cheap as well.
Ill post of pic of what I have... It is really simple, I have calanoid pods right now in a 10g tank with two outlets from an air pump, its really simple.
The detritus from your tank will work to feed them, but it likely wont be enough or of the proper quality to make your pods nutritious for your mandarin. I use tank water, but it doesnt have a lot of detritus in it. Fish food of good quality is best.

well right now its a 1g water bottle that i was thinking i could maybe chop off atleast half of it so it wouldn't be as tall and would give better gas exchange..well i want something thats 1g max since i don't have alot of space for something too big.

[ChadTheSpike]

does anyone have a pic of their pod tanks that would be nice. I don't know but I think all of my pods are dead or I can't see them anymore. I should probably try to up their numbers.

If the container is too large to start, the cultures can be slow to take off, take a turkey baster and pull sone water out and put the water into a clear bottomed container with a white background... you should be able to see some if they are there.

I need to tag along. I was just looking into a HOB refugium for pods but I haven't done enough research yet. Please keep the info coming, this is great. Perfect timing for this thread.

A HOB refugium for pods is not quite the same as a copepod culture (the biggest issue being contamination from various things in the tank that impedes population growth for the pods like hydroids and other things). If you need lots of pods, you should set up a separate culture IMO, but if you need a few pods, a refugium is ok. Setting up a refugium is another topic (one that I have lot of opinions on and would be happy to participate :D). Some of the concepts can be used to increase pod production in a fuge though, like feeding.

Here is a picture of my simple setup (1-10g tank and 1-larger air pump with tubing and manifold, thats it). I am currently culturing calanoids, the color is too light in this picture indicating that I need to add phyto, I will harvest half tomorrow add cleaner water and more phyto. I tried to get a picture of the pods, but none of the pictures were turning out... youll have to take my word for it that they are there :D

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=1106&pictureid=7851

Jason, how much space do you have? You will be much better served by using something like this:

http://www.rubbermaid.com/Assets/images/Product/7a96-2-large.jpg

If you dont have space for that there are some other more unconventional vessels that would work well, like those plastic drawers, various food storage containers ect. Just think flatter than wider. It helps on two fronts: 1) better air/water ratio for higher O2 numbers in the water and 2) more crawling area for the pods.

I also attached a PDF file on harpacticoid culture for anyone who wants it. Credit goes to copepodgeek.com, a reasonably good website by the way.

[Jason7504]

ok well i got a rubbermaid container like the one above but its got a divider so i could have 2 cultures in the same container :) it won't affect the pods or water quality by not being that tall? thanks for the PDF by the way :)

what are you feeding with your pods Chad? your seahorses?

[sam11909]

would you need a air pump with the herpacticoid setup. Thinking about doing this for my mandarin. This is great info!

[ChadTheSpike]

Sounds like you are good to go!! The only thing water quality wise that you need to look out for with the flatter type containers is salinity... If you dont cover, you will likely need to top up every day or every other day...

I always keep a culture of something going... I do it for a few reasons, so I have a strong culture going when I have seahorse fry, I am always adding pods to my tank because I feel my tank should have more than it does without me doing so (the ocean does!!), and Im also trying to get calanoids to take hold in my tank, but the biggest reason is if I always have a culture going my girlfriend doesnt complain about it when I set it up!!! :D

[ChadTheSpike]

Sam, it depends on the size, a larger setup probably could benefit (say greater than 5 or so gallons), but the flow on a smaller setup might be too much for the pods and could be more detrimental. Im sorry that the answer isnt cut and dry it depends more on your setup.

[Jason7504]

well i have kept up the original 1g container just to see what happens even though im gonna start another culture in the tupperware that i got. I noticed that the phyto is almost gone in the jug. are they eating it or is it just dying and becoming colorless?

[ChadTheSpike]

A little bit of both I am sure :)
How are the numbers doing?

[Jason7504]

A little bit of both I am sure :)
How are the numbers doing?

i dont know i can't really see them to count lol

[ChadTheSpike]

haha, I think you may need a magnifying glass! :D

[Jason7504]

should I cover the tupperware container to help with evap or just leave it off to allow more gas exchange?

[ChadTheSpike]

I would cover it, although not tightly. Many times I use a piece of plastic wrap with some holes slashed in it for smaller cultures. Massive salinity swings are usually the root cause of my culture crashes.

[CJO]

I also attached a PDF file on harpacticoid culture for anyone who wants it. Credit goes to copepodgeek.com, a reasonably good website by the way.

I really appreciate the information you've provided. I've been looking into this as well.

CJ

[ChadTheSpike]

:D
no problem, glad to help!

[sam11909]

A few more questions before I pick up my harpacticoids.

1) Do I need to have a heater? Our house stays at 70-75 winter and 75-80 in the summer.

2) Would crushed Spectrum food be OK to feed? and how much a day?

I will be keeping them in a half full 10 gallon tank with a air stone and water changes every or every other week.

3) Do you think that this setup will cultivate enough pods to keep a mandarin healthy in my 55 gallon with a refugium. (He's doing good so far without any added pods, but I just want insurance.)

[CJO]

Here's some more information that I found that answers your first question:
http://www.copepodgeek.com/Copepod%20culture%20handbook/Copepod%20Culturing.html

It also recommends feeding phytoplankton, so I'm not sure what to believe!

CJ

[ChadTheSpike]

Sam:
1) No, a heater is not necessary and depending on what species you are trying to culture and your room conditions (like tigriopus) it may be counter productive. I wouldnt worry about it though, room temperature is fine. I have never used heaters in my pod cultures. There are probably papers out there somewhere that have an optimization study concerning the exact correct temperature for the maximum growth rate of species x though... If you want absolute maximum growth rates, then I recommend further study.

2) Yes, crushed spectrum works (it is what I use on harpacticoids usually). You will have to play some to find the right amount here, the guideline that I go by is that when I add food, it clouds the water a little bit... a few days later the water is clear from the pods eating the food. Find that balance between food and clear water (its going to depend on your volume and population density), I always keep the water a little bit cloudy. I usually use a quart container with harpacticoids and add a pinch of powdered food every 2-3days. You can always do large water changes if necessary by draining the contents of the tank through a coffee filter and then putting the pods back in the tank.

3) I think it could be enough, it depends on a lot of different things though... If you can harvest enough to keep them in an exponential growth phase, you can pretty easily double the number of pods you have in a week... so it should be enough... just watch the populations to make sure.

Also, I dont recommend using the airstones, some of the stages of development can get small bubbles stuck under their carpace which can lead to their untimely demise. A low roll where you can count individual bubbles coming from the air tube is fine.

CJ: you can feed harpacticoids phyto and you can raise them that way (they will eat some from the water column and some from detritus and dead cells)... But based on the way most eat (microdetrivores), it is not ideal. That being said some do it with good results and I have before too. At the very least, adding live phyto to the water does provide some nutrient reduction in the water and there will be some multiplication of cells (food goes a longer ways and water quality is better). My thoughts are to use what you can obtain in the easiest and cheapest manner... unless you are using your pods to raise fry, in which case what you feed your pods is very important, and most harpacticoids are not the best choice.

[CJO]

Thanks, Chad. That all makes sense.

CJ

[ChadTheSpike]

:) no problem,

I think the takeaway is that most harpacticoids are detrivores... meaning that they will eat anything you feed them!

[sam11909]

Thanks Chad!

[ChadTheSpike]

No problem, let me know how it goes!!!

[sam11909]

Last minute change in plans. Do to space reasons I'm going to be using two 2 liter bottles instead of a 10 gallon tank. Would I need to have some type of flow? Should I place the bottles vertically (more water) or horizontally (less water more level crawling space on sides)? How much of a change in pod production would there be in a smaller space? And I do need to drill holes in the bottle right? Sorry for all the questions. :D

[sam11909]

bump^

[ChadTheSpike]

:D Its all good

2 liter bottles arent very ideal because there is such a small opening and low surface area to volume ratio. I guess you could lay it on its side with a 'door'? cut in the top and use them that way, but I wonder if you have a tupperware container laying around that may work a little better (a pyrex pie pan would work temporarily, unused paint trays work really well). I foresee issues with water quality and population growth and perhaps crashes caused by using an upright 2 liter bottle. From what I have seen, production is directly proportional to vessel size, but growth rates are the same (means if you are getting 5000 pods a week out of a 10 gallon, you will get 500 pods a week out of a 1 gallon).
I hope this helps

[sam11909]

Thanks! I'll probably do a tupperware container. I'll put pics up when it's setup!

[ChadTheSpike]

Cool! Im looking forward to it!

[sam11909]

I crushed some spectrum food and put it in this

http://i666.photobucket.com/albums/vv27/sam11909/IMG_0885.jpg?t=1265395903

http://i666.photobucket.com/albums/vv27/sam11909/IMG_0884.jpg?t=1265395929

Is the food small enough? did I put too much or too little?

and are tigger pods the same thing as harpacticoids?

[sam11909]

bump, about to put them in.

[ChadTheSpike]

Looks good, you really cant crush it too small, what is the volume of that container? Just keep an eye on salinity, you may need to top up daily. I like the white container... it will make it really easy to see how they are doing :D

Tigger pods are tigriopus califoricus which are a harpacticoid copepod.

[sam11909]

AAAHH! HELP! I looked in the bin and it smells fairly bad and I can't see as many copepods! Should I do a water change? Add flow?

[ChadTheSpike]

You could do a water change, strain the water through a coffee filter and put the puds you pull out back in, I wouldnt do more than 50%, if it doesnt clear up in a couple of days you can do another. If you have an air pump, it probably wouldnt hurt anything to aerate the water and add a little flow (remember low enough of a setting that you can count individual bubbles and no air stone). The tigger pods are pretty tough, Ive had them live when I have forgotton to top up and had the salinity rise to 1.035, if some are still alive you can salvage the culture.

[sam11909]

Thanks! I'll try a water change.

[dwd5813]

what do you guys think of the idea of setting up a culture station consiting of 5 2.5g tanks? the idea i have in mind is to set them up in a row with the long sides parallel and a light behind them, with 1-4 being continuous phyto and 5 being a pod culture to feed the dt with, with an air manifold feeding each. any thoughts or experience along that line or is that setting myself up for more cleaning than it's worth?

[dwd5813]

a very crude illusration of my idea:

_____ air manifold

l l l l l tanks
_____ light

[ChadTheSpike]

I think that you will have some contamination type issues with your phyto culture if you do it in 2.5 gallon tanks. Phyto is very easy to grow, but you do have to be kind of anal with your sterilization (especially if you grow the 'gold standard', t. iso). With a open topped tank set next to a zooplankton tank, even a single drop of water from the DT or one rotifer or bacteria or mold or etc. can cause cultures to crash. This is the basis for why so many people use plastic bags or 2 l soda bottles for phyto cultures.

If you are culturing several things in the same area (phyto, rotifers, pods etc), always put the most sensitive (phyto) on the top (or even in a separate room), and less sensitive stuff lower (copepods) lower.

I would also recommend having two vessels set up for the copepods, it gives you more insurance if one of the cultures crashes.

Finally, phyto is MUCH easier and more productive to grow using a batch culture method.

I hope this helps.

[dwd5813]

thanks chad. to expand on the idea i have, i'd be using 2.5g tanks with individual covers drilled for two air intakes per tank, a central air manifold with large air pump divided by gang valve(s) and a central light behind the row. i do understand the contamination risks and would hope that keeping each covered individually would minimize the risk. another thought i had was drilling each tank and using a jg bulkhead for draining/straining to move from tank to tank as necessary. aside from contamination issues, which i'll have to deal with in one form or another no matter what, can you see any issues with using flat bottomed square (rectangular) containers like tanks vs. soda bottles or bags?

[ChadTheSpike]

I think your largest problems will come from contamination... You may have issues with the flat bottoms as well, but I think you will be able to get past them (like by stirring the tanks or directing flow across the botom of the tanks to minimize any accumulation). Using something with a rounded bottom just makes issues like these easier. Just remember not to use anything in multiple tanks (nets, airline tubing, anything like that).