can a return pump be too big for overflow drain?

[is350jonny]

so.. i finally filled the tank and sump up today... and i turned on return pump to test the tank.. noticed that the 1" drain pipe in the overflow seems to be struggling to keep up with the return pump... im running a RIO+ 3100 with 4ft horizontal and 4ft verticle 1" tubing. seems like the RIO is sucking the sump water level all the way down to the intake nozzle on the pump, causing pockets of air being returned to the main tank... anyway to make the overflow drain faster? thanks

[spleify]

Short of adding another drain, there is no way to make it drain faster. Sounds like you need to put a ball avlve on the return line and slow it down a little

[Lightsluvr]

Something isn't right - with that amount of head pressure, the Rio should only be pumping 400-450 gph through the overflow...What kind of overflow are you using?

Assuming your overflow pipe isn't clogged, you could always put a ball valve on the output of the Rio 3100.

LL

[is350jonny]

its a single corner overflow about 6"x6". Tank is 48"Lx18"Dx24"H...

[iamwrasseman]

ball valve ,slow it down a bit

[JNicho]

Sounds like your drain is potentially undersized or somehow otherwise constricted...I run a single overflow on my current tank...it's a 1.5" durso and 1.5" PVC, but it goes through a 1" bulkhead in the bottom of the tank...I'm running about 400gph on the return pump and the overflow is nowhere near maxed out.

As mentioned you can always add a valve to throttle back the pump, but I would think that your overflow should be able to handle the full flow of that pump with 4' head.

[is350jonny]

thanks everyone for the quick replies... ill order a ball valve to see if it helps... on a different note... how do you quiet down the overflow/drain? im running a vertical pvc w/ a sideways T and 90 elbow and another downward pvc... all i hear is the water "slurping" down the drain.

[JNicho]

Sounds like you're describing a durso standpipe...here is a good link for DIY durso's...maybe it will help you narrow down getting it quieter:

http://www.dursostandpipes.com/make-your-own-diy?start=3

[checkx1]

A big + having a ball value on a return line.

You also might need to add more water too.

[is350jonny]

A big + having a ball value on a return line.

You also might need to add more water too.

i dunno how much more water i can add... if i shut off the system.. the sump fills up with only 1" to spare from the top.

[checkx1]

the sump fills up with only 1" to spare from the top.

Then I wouldn't recommend adding anymore water and go strictly with the ball value.

Very important to have enough space in sump for excessive water from DT due to return pump failure.

[fishoutofwater]

you can pick up a ball valve at any homedeopt or lowes. and you should always have a valve on the the return pump to control the flow. I also would recommend a 1.5" drain if at all possible.

[is350jonny]

I also would recommend a 1.5" drain if at all possible.

1.5" pvc drain pipe with a reducer bushing to a 1" bulkhead or should i dremel out the overflow hole to fit a 1.5" bulkhead?

[fishoutofwater]

if it was mine I would dremel it out and install a 1.5" bh and drain. I am bulding a 210 with a coast to coast overflow and it will have 4 1.5" drains with 2 of them being emergency drains. this will insure that there wont be issues.


1.5" pvc drain pipe with a reducer bushing to a 1" bulkhead or should i dremel out the overflow hole to fit a 1.5" bulkhead?

[Greatwyte]

Do not put a ball valve on the return line.

Put a ball valve in the input line, above the return pump, and throttle back it's output a bit.

[jasonrp104]

Why? Putting it on the return would do the same thing but there would be no risk of clogging/flooding that you would have with it on the drain.

Put the ball on the return and throttle it back a bit. This will help with the gurgling because now you are controling how much water goes into your overflow. If you put it on the drain, you are restricting it after it has gone through the drain but before it hits the sump. That's asking for a flood if something even slightly blocks the valve

edit: I think I misunderstood you, GW. My way of thinking is that the return line is above the return pump. You're calling it the input. To me, the input is the drain pipe and output is the return pipe

edit#2: BTW I think those rio pumps are underrated in gph. I have to throttle back a 750GPH almost halfway and by the head loss calculator, I wasn't sure if it would be enough when I bought it

[is350jonny]

thanks for all the input guys... just ordered 2 "Two Little Fishies Ball Valves w/ Hose Barbs".. one for the return pump and one for the skimmer pump... also reordered new CLEAR PVC piping for the durso.. gonna change the current 1" to 1 1/4" overflow drain. Hopefully this will fix everything...

[Lightsluvr]

thanks everyone for the quick replies... ill order a ball valve to see if it helps... on a different note... how do you quiet down the overflow/drain? im running a vertical pvc w/ a sideways T and 90 elbow and another downward pvc... all i hear is the water "slurping" down the drain.

Are you describing something like this?
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff125/lightsluvr/overflow1.jpg

This is a common Durso overflow - if yours is like this, you need a hole drilled in the top of the overflow to allow air to flow in. This will prevent the gurgling noise. There is no need for a downward piece of PVC.
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff125/lightsluvr/overflow2.jpg

This is the way it looks installed. The height of the Durso's downward facing opening controls the height of the water in your overflow. You only want water to "fall" an inch or less into the overflow in order prevent the waterfall noise:
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff125/lightsluvr/overflow3.jpg

Good luck.

LL

[jmski333]

dont put a ball valve on the return line, its not good for the pump to throttle the pressure, the life of your pump will be shortened.
what you do is put a "T" in the return line and redirect some on the water back into your sump, than you but a ball valve on that. than if you want more water in your tank you should close the valve some more, if you want less water in your tank you open the valve some more. that way your pump isn't getting worn out from pumping water through a valve.

[Lightsluvr]

[QUOTE=jmski333;16444844]dont put a ball valve on the return line, its not good for the pump to throttle the pressure, the life of your pump will be shortened.
QUOTE]

Not true.

You don't want to valve down the pump INTAKE, but 90% of reefers I know throttle back the OUTPUT of their tanks... it does no damage at all...

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff125/lightsluvr/CLplum1.jpg

LL

[Adam76]

+1 on ball valve on return.

[JTL]

Something isn't right - with that amount of head pressure, the Rio should only be pumping 400-450 gph through the overflow...What kind of overflow are you using?

Assuming your overflow pipe isn't clogged, you could always put a ball valve on the output of the Rio 3100.

LL

Totally agree and if he has not put a hole in the top of the durso it is probably on a full siphon which should drain a lot faster than the pump can refill. My guess is that there are restrictions either too many elbows or something in the pipe. In any event a valve on the return will fix the immediate problem.

[iamwrasseman]

if you slow the return it may also quiet the overflow as you have already stated that you were pushing the limits of the overflow .

[Lightsluvr]

Looking at Greatwyte's comment again, I think maybe we are just dealing with semantics... I think he had the right answer, just calling it something different.

With respect to a "Return pump", the water flows from the the display tank in some type of "overflow" which usually is directed into a sump by gravity. That pipe is called the overflow.
The return pump is usually located in or outside the sump and draws water from the sump which is then "returned" to the tank. This pipe is the output of the pump and is generally referred to as the "return" pipe.

So for sake of understanding, you don't ever throttle back the intake of the pump, but you certainly can put a ball valve on the return pipe to control the gph from the pump to the returns...

In addition, you don't want to attempt to control the overflow with a valve - that is a recipe for disaster... the only valve should be on the output side (return) of the pump...

By the way, if you find the overflow "surging" up and down, that is most likely due to one of two things: 1.) No siphon hole in the top of the Durso, as described above, or 2.) your overflow hose is underwater in the sump and is causing back pressure... it fills up, gurgles as the water rushes out, fills up again, etc. Check those two circumstances...

I just wanted to clarify so there wouldn't be any confusion...

LL

[syrinx]

I think it is likely that he hasn`t had a sump before and there was too little water in the system to begin with. While I like to design with drains larger than inputs, a rio 3100 with 8 feet of head should not overwhelm a 1 inch drain. I do agree with the valve on the return pump- always the best idea- and no harm to pump whatsoever.

[syrinx]

Also I see in one of his earlier posts that the drain is slurping- this also means there is not a situation where the pump is overwhelming the drain,as air is obviously involved. I would assume that he set up the system by filling the sump from the bottom as opposed to filling it from the display. When the tank was started- the sump pumped down by the time the water level had started the overflow to work. Just my guess based on the question.

[is350jonny]

Also I see in one of his earlier posts that the drain is slurping- this also means there is not a situation where the pump is overwhelming the drain,as air is obviously involved. I would assume that he set up the system by filling the sump from the bottom as opposed to filling it from the display. When the tank was started- the sump pumped down by the time the water level had started the overflow to work. Just my guess based on the question.

i filled the main tank.. then i kept filling the main tank until the water overflowed into the sump to a desired level... then after i turned on the system.. i add more RODI to the main tank... i have an "in sump" return pump and the pump is sucking the sump water level down to the intake level of the pump. i dont want to add anymore water because when i shut down the system or if i had a power failure.. the sump fills up pretty much to the top.

let me take some picture to see if it would help.

[reef_corgi]

Turn all power off, and see where is the water line in the sump. it should not overflow your sump.

I have a 90 gallons tank n running a mag 9 (900 gph) same rate as the rio 3100 (900 gph). But my return line is 3/4" pipe.

Can you post a picture of your sump?

[is350jonny]

here are some pics i took...

before the RODI was put in..

Skimmer compartment
http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh219/is350jonny/Saltwater%20Tank/IMG_0191.jpg
Refugium & Return Pump
http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh219/is350jonny/Saltwater%20Tank/IMG_0192.jpg
RKL/Wavebox controller
http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh219/is350jonny/Saltwater%20Tank/IMG_0193.jpg
IceCap Fans
http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh219/is350jonny/Saltwater%20Tank/IMG_0198.jpg

Here are the pics of the problem areas
System OFF tank and overflow
http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh219/is350jonny/Saltwater%20Tank/IMG_0200.jpg
System OFF Sump
http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh219/is350jonny/Saltwater%20Tank/IMG_0201.jpg

System ON Overflow
http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh219/is350jonny/Saltwater%20Tank/IMG_0203.jpg
System ON tank & overflow
http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh219/is350jonny/Saltwater%20Tank/IMG_0204.jpg
Overflow level
http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh219/is350jonny/Saltwater%20Tank/IMG_0205.jpg
Return pump compartment
http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh219/is350jonny/Saltwater%20Tank/IMG_0206.jpg

As you can see in the pics when the system is running.. the tank is pretty much filled to brim.. while the return pump compartment is sucking down to intake level..

[syrinx]

[QUOTE=is350jonny;16447342]i filled the main tank.. then i kept filling the main tank until the water overflowed into the sump to a desired level QUOTE]

Was the desired level to about a inch from the top of the sump? Then when you turned it on did it still keep beating the drain once the overflow started? you should be getting less than 500 gph out of that pump with the head you claim to be pushing. I would check things piece by piece. start with no standpipe- then standpipe without the durso, then with the durso installed-etc etc. you should add the valve to the return pump(most large rios come with one)- but your pump,with that head should not overwhelm a 1 inch drain.

[is350jonny]

the initial desired level was about half the sump.. but then when i turned the system on.. the return pump pretty much drained the sump... so i added more water in to bring the sump level up.. but then i noticed that the sump level wasnt really goin up but the main tank level was pretty much at the brim.. so i stopped adding water and turned off the system.. once the main tank drained into the sump.. it left about 1" left in the sump.

[syrinx]

So it is overwhelming the overflow more than the drain perhaps? can the overflow weir be adjusted downwards any? But whatever the case the ball valve will help you experiment.

[is350jonny]

solved my problem with a ball valve on the return line... put in a 1" ball valve with barb fitting.. and even tho the valve is in wide open position.. the 1mm reduction for that 2 inch section was enough to stabilize the whole tank.. now the overflow is nice and quiet.. thanks everyone for the help :)