How do we know QT'd fish are ick free?

[dg3147]

So, I just ran out and bought a 10g QT tank and a couple new fish (mandarin, midas blenny, and a tiny diamond goby). I am gonna use new water (ick free), PVC pipe, a heater w/ thermostat, and a bio-wheel power filter.

I don't want to use sponges or rock from my running sump since my ick ravaged DT has only been fallow for 4-5 weeks now.

I have two questions:
-how do I know my new fish (assuming they live a few weeks in QT) are not carrying ick back into my DT as asymptomatic carriers.
-if I change 10% of the water every 2-3 days will ammonia be a problem?

Oh, and a bonus third question:
-Is QT'ing a sandsifting Diamond Goby in a bare bottom QT a problem?

Thanks in advance!

[Playa-1]

You should do this homework before you acquire new fish.

[otrlynn]

Well, I'll take a stab at this but you may get some different answers. Probably changing 10% of the water every 2-3 days will keep the ammonia in check, but you really need to religiously test the water every day (even twice a day), because it can go up really fast. Get some Ammo-lock to keep on hand for emergencies. It is not a substitute for water changes but it will "lock-up" toxic ammonia before it kills fish.

You really will not know for sure if your new fish are asymptomatic ich carriers or are truly ich free. The presumption is that if they are ich carriers, within the 3-4 week quarantine period you should see the visible stage of ich on the fish. Some people believe that ich is more likely to "break out" in times of stress, and transport and QT is certainly stressful on fish. If you want to be as absolutely safe as possible, you would need to treat with copper or hyposalinity even if you don't see ich. This has its own drawbacks, as copper and hyposalinity need to be closely monitored and can kill fish if done wrong.

I have seen people say that they have been successful quarantining sandsifting gobies in a bare bottom tank but I have not done so myself.

I think your bigger problem is trying to quarantine the mandarin. Unless you have purchased one that is already eating commercial fish food, it will probably starve to death. Their main diet is copepods and they pick at the rocks all day long. You can add live copepods to the QT, but I don't know what effect that will have on ammonia, or whether you can afford to keep buying live copepods for a month. It is usually suggested to add a mandarin only to a well established tank. Most people do not quarantine them as they have a heavy slime coat that discourages ich.

[abulgin]

You should do this homework before you acquire new fish.

:thumbsup:

[foster200]

I just went through the same thing. My sandsifting goby was fine, he started eating all types of food. My green spotted mandaring didnt eat for a week or so. What I did, although it didnt work for me, but i still think it was a great idea. I removed the sock filter and emptied it out. There are always pods in there, toss a few of them in.. they will live for a while. It turned out that hunger got the best of my mandarin and he finally ate. He eats all types of food as well now. Its a royal pain and best of luck to you.

Ditto on the ammo lock. I put all my fish in an uncycled QT, battled with ammonia for 4 weeks.

[otrlynn]

I may be not understanding this correctly, but if you are taking anything out of the filter sock of the tank that already has ich, and putting it in the QT, you might as well not bother to QT the fish.

[iamwrasseman]

he didnt specify where the sock was from so its probably fron the QT .

[eyebedam]

You should do this homework before you acquire new fish.

You should offer a possible solution to a newboe instead of fussing at them & moving on.

[Indymann99]

You need to QT/ hospital your fish for AT LEAST 4 weeks (if the fish show ANY symptoms then you need to continue the QT/hospital for 4+ weeks AFTER the last signs of ich).

I would recommend you do a search on ich and learn the lifecycle, it will help you understand what you are doing and why.

If you know your fish have been exposed you should read up on the specific recommended treatments for the fish you have (hypo, copper, etc). NOTE if you have multiple fish in the same QT/hospital then you need to use the treatment that is approved for all the fish... (example some fish can NOT take copper).

FYI my diamond goby did fine for 4 weeks in a barebottom QT.

You can keep your ammonia in check with waterchanges (with new SW).

You are doing the right thing by pulling your fish and putting them in a (technically HOSPITAL) tank, and letting your DT run fishless for 6 or more weeks. This is the only way to insure you are breaking the ich lifecycle in your DT.

Lots of work but you are making the best of a bad situation. Much better than constantly loosing fish to ich that you can never eradicate.

[bertoni]

You'll need some Amquel and probably a lot more water for changes. 10% every few days is unlikely to be anywhere nearly enough new water to deal with a tank that has no running biofilter. 30-40% per day can be insufficient.

[Playa-1]

You should offer a possible solution to a newboe instead of fussing at them & moving on.

You should keep the thread on the OP subject and not worry about me. I gave the man some very valuable advice.

[Chris27]

You should do this homework before you acquire new fish.

Now that we got that out of the way....

All the advice that has been provided so far is fantastic, and adopting a good QT regimen is the only true way to have success with the delicate fish we keep. You will love the success and will hopefully spread the word in the future that QT is the way to go, not garlic and UV's.

It sounds as though you have already had some troubles, so by keeping the DT fishless for 4-6 weeks and elevating the temp. to 80-81F you will eradicate the parasite. As for the critters in QT, a prophylactic 3 week copper treatment should do the trick. As mentioned before, the mandarin does pose a bit of a problem, as they need to be trained to eat prepared foods, hopefully for your sake the little bugger eats for you. Another option may to use hyposalinity, while the low salinity may kill off any pods as quickly as copper, some may actually make it through enough to help supplement the mandarin's diet. Possibly some research is in order to see how hypo would effect pods vs. copper....

As for the ammonia, it is a good idea to test at least 2x/day and have enough SW and Prime/Amquel on hand to keep the levels at bay - after a few days, the cycle will get moving and it won't be an issue anymore, but definitely be ready if it becomes a problem in the first week.

Anyhow, good luck! You're making the right choice.

[eyebedam]

You should keep the thread on the OP subject and not worry about me. I gave the man some very valuable advice.

Your advice has absoultly no value after the fact & still you haven't offered him any sort of solution. Also you were the first to take the thread OT.

[bertoni]

[flamealert]

Okay, let's stop bickering. I think Playa-1's advice was accurate, if rather abrupt.

[dg3147]

great advice all! Yes, even Playa-1's advice was appreciated ---no worries there, I got me some thick skin and of course...he's 100% correct.

The mandarin was eating mysis at the LFS, so I hope that will do. Originally the LFS said Mandadrins will not get ick due to the slime coat --but, while sitting in traffic one the way home, it occured to me that she may become a carrier. Ditto on adding rock from my sump.

The tank QT is only 10 gallons, so doing big water changes is no problem. Any recomendations on how much and how often?

[bertoni]

I'd use an ammonia test kit regularly. I'd expect to do daily or twice daily water changes and Amquel doses for a while.

[Playa-1]

Sorry the thread got off track Dg. I agree with bertoni, you will likely be doing daily water changes. It's doable but it's going to be lot's of work. I find the little Seachem ammonia alert thingies come in very handy in the QT. I don't rely on them 100% but It gives you an idea of what going on at a glance.

[dg3147]

best guess: how many gallons should I do with each water change (daily)?

[Ron Reefman]

Start with 3 or 4 gallons a day and do the tests. If the levels stay low, try changing 2 or 3 and test some more. I run a 10g QT and only change water as needed (depending who's in it and why)... but then mine has a filter, a skimmer and some LR.

Ron

[byrdman81]

I agree with what everyone says and all info is accurate but i myself (dont start bashing me people) put a mandarin in my dt tank w/o qt and my fish ended up with ich. With that said, I tried my best to keep all the water that he came in out of my dt but some may have gotten in there. I think its safe to say my dt was ich free before because i had an outbreak 5 months before and dt was fallow for 10 weeks and all fish were treated with hypo for 6 weeks. When i got ich after the mandy i took him out of dt as well and treated him with hypo too. I tried to spot feed him mysis and for the longest time he wouldnt touch it. Each day i would take pods from a bottle i bought at LFS and use a turkey baster and blast some his way once a day. I know this wasnt enough to satisfy him but he survived the hypo and eventually started eating mysis. But unfortunately i had a filter in the tank and left the cover of the tube that pulls water from the tank and guess where i found the mandy after that. So all in all Im sure people put mandys in their dt and never got ich so it may work for you but I know i tried it after listening to people say they were highly resistant to ich and I got burned. GL on whatever you decide to do.

[Fish Ace]

You should offer a possible solution to a newboe instead of fussing at them & moving on.

I agree

[wooden_reefer]

I have two questions:
-how do I know my new fish (assuming they live a few weeks in QT) are not carrying ick back into my DT as asymptomatic carriers.

-if I change 10% of the water every 2-3 days will ammonia be a problem?

Oh, and a bonus third question:
-Is QT'ing a sandsifting Diamond Goby in a bare bottom QT a problem?

Thanks in advance!

1. By continuous treatment of at least eight weeks and having faith empirially. IMO, the chance of getting rid of ich by eight weeks of continuous active treatment is likely in the high 90's% at least. 12 weeks will be better chances still.

2. You have it all wrong about ammonia in QT.

You cannot change just 20% of water in QT and hope for having low enough ammonia. 0.4 ppm ammonia is not much better than 0.5. If you do not have (enough) nitrification activity in QT and you have to change water to rid a QT of ammonia, WC in such a situation has to be massive, 50% daily may be, and you have to diligently remove as much poop and uneaten food as you can.

So, the medium for QT against ich should be very well cycled in advance, and ammonia should be zero without wc in QT. Implicit here is that copper or hypo against ich does not harm nitrification bacteria significantly, so you can have nitrification against ich in QT, in general, (if you do not have also concurrent bacterial infection that requires the use of an antibiotic.)

[bertoni]

I agree that 50% or greater water changes are likely to be needed.

[wooden_reefer]

WC in DT and WC in QT (for lack of nitrification) are based on two vastly difference reasons.

Do not allow the common scedule in WC for DT to influence the scdedule of WC for QT that lacks nitrification.

Nitrate, PO4, and organcs in a DT is far less acutely toxic than ammonia in QT.

[dg3147]

I am about 6 weeks fallow for the DT now, so I may toss in a piece of live rock in a week. I am just being paranoid about it being ick free. When do you think the ammonia spike will occur?

I will likely put the mandarin in the DT aa 5-7 days as well, as he is most likely not to have/get ick. Hope this will decrease ammonia load a bit.

I plan on daily 2 gallon changes (maybe even 2 a day).

Hoping for the best! (lesson learned too).

[wooden_reefer]

I am about 6 weeks fallow for the DT now, so I may toss in a piece of live rock in a week. I am just being paranoid about it being ick free. When do you think the ammonia spike will occur?

I will likely put the mandarin in the DT aa 5-7 days as well, as he is most likely not to have/get ick. Hope this will decrease ammonia load a bit.

I plan on daily 2 gallon changes (maybe even 2 a day).

Hoping for the best! (lesson learned too).

Ich can come from the water with the liverock unless it too has been fishless for eight weeks.

[bertoni]

The fish will excrete ammonia on an ongoing basis. The ammonia level will rise continuously until the filter starts working.

Personally, I'd wait another couple of weeks before assuming the DT is ich-free. Better safe than sorry.

[dg3147]

now here's the real question...

At what level is the ammonia level is too dangerous for the QT gamble and do one of two things: put fish into DT or put live rock from DT into QT..

Opinions?

[wooden_reefer]

now here's the real question...

At what level is the ammonia level is too dangerous for the QT gamble and do one of two things: put fish into DT or put live rock from DT into QT..

Opinions?

To answer your question, sometimes I'd accept 0.1 ppm N ammonia for a few days. This is when a fish has external bacterial infection and an antibiotcs that harms nitrification bacteria will have to be used.

The acceptable level of ammonia in QT when treating against ich should be zero, since treatment against ich, cooper or hypo (gradual) does not harm nitrification bacteria.

Of course, you always cycle the medium for QT in advance of getting any fish.

bacterial infection per se is bad, but when it happens when one is eradication ich, it makes the process of eradication of ich more difficult. So this reason, I always use UV properly against bacterial infection when I QT against ich, not against ich directly but the lurking pathogenic bacteria.

[bertoni]

I agree that 0.1 ppm ammonia likely is safe. Many kits don't go that low, so any detectable level of ammonia calls for some Amquel. Amquel can neutralize ammonia, and I'd pre-dose it into a QT that lacks a biological filter.

[dg3147]

I think I found the ideal solution --let me know what ya'll think:

I checked my ammonia level this morning and it had jumped up to 0.5 ---panic time. So, I ran to the store and bought a big, rough live pre-cured live rock and, transporting in water, tossed it into the QT. think it'll do? should I still dose the API Ammo Lock I also picked up?

(note: the live rock was from a tank of cured rock that was independent of the fish water supply).

[bertoni]

The live rock might help with filtration. I would dose the ammonia binder immediately. Ammonia can injure fish rapidly.

[dg3147]

shouldn't the live rock essentially cure the problem?

[bertoni]

Maybe, eventually.

[dg3147]

status update:
02/09 Fish placed in QT, NH3 to 0.25 day one --- 50% water change done.
02/10 NH3 level at 0.25-0.50 ---two water changes done.
02/11 NH3 level 0.25 --50% water change and 1-2 lb. live rock added.
02/12 NH3 level 0.25 --50% water change and Manadarin pulled out and placed in DT.
02/13 (today) NH3 now at 1.0! --50% water change done. Fish appear well still. Mandarin from DT MIA....hopefully hiding in rocks.

I have not used ammo lock yet because I dont want to ruin my ability to read the levels. mistake?