help fish keep dieing

[vinnyvalentine]

ok so about 1 month ago i lost all my fish to what i thought was ich they all died in 3 days they got little white spots on them and then would loose all there color start breathing heavy and then die it all took place in a short period of time they would die in like 24 hours after showing symptoms the only one to survive is snofflke moray eel so i did hypo salinity for 3 weeks 1.009 ppm so i added salt back up to 1.023 ppm let sit for 2 weeks and added 3 yellow fin damsels lost one already after about 28 hours in tank and now the other 2 r showing sings white spots one is rubbing on rock please offer any advice could this be something else ??? snowflake eel looks fine hes went threw hypo and is showing no signs of sickness please help me im ready to give up

[ajolie30]

hi how are u I can try to help you here... First what are all your perimeters and where are u doing hypo??? hypo should never be done in your display tank but in a quarantine tank... having the salinity low with live rock is not good... hypo should be done in a quarantine tank with a heater some pvc pipe for hiding places for ur fish and some good nitrifying bacteria sponge filter.. also have handy a test kit for ammonia levels in ur quarantine tank for u will need to do frequent water changes and u need to also maintain a 1.0009 salinity very important...

[Pufferpunk]

By Kelly Jedlicki:
The preferred method of ridding the parasite is achieved by removing ALL of the fish from the main display tank and placing them in a separate, bare-bottom quarantine tank for a minimum of 4 weeks, though 8 weeks is preferred. The tank will have to remain fallow (fishless) for the entire time. By removing the fish, the parasite does not have a host in which to complete its life cycle and will eventually die off completely.

All fish must be treated in a separate quarantine/hospital tank.

The parasite requires saltwater conditions to survive, therefore, by lowering the salinity the parasites will die off. This is called hyposalinity, and requires obtaining a Specific Gravity of 1.009 (measured with a refractometer or hydrometer at least daily) for a minimum of 4 weeks.
The tank needs to be bare bottom (no substrate) with hiding spots for the fish. Hiding spots should be things that can be sterilized after each use - pvc pipe/couplings or those plastic caves/decorations used in freshwater tanks.
There should be some source of biological filtration. I prefer air driven sponge filters that can be cycled or maintained in your display system’s sump or a sponge or bioballs in a hang-on-back filter. Both of these can be quickly removed from the display system and added to the quarantine tank when needed.
Additional aeration (air stone or power head pointed from the bottom of the tank to surface) will also be needed to meet the fishes increased demand for oxygen.
Another option is to treat the quarantine/hospital tank with copper. Copper has been proven as an affective treatment for Ich. However, Copper is also an irritant and fish breeders have found it to affect fertility. Furthermore, Copper kills inverts, algae, and corals. Some fish (scale-less fish, elasmobranchs) are very sensitive to copper and do not do well. If you use copper, in addition to the other water parameters, you must monitor the copper levels daily to prevent toxicity (high levels) as well as subtherapeutic levels (low levels) as both extremes will affect the outcome/cure.
Whether you choose hyposalinity or copper treatment, you must monitor the water parameters in the tank at least daily, as pH, ammonia and nitrite levels can change rapidly. This causes additional stress which can affect the success of the cure. Frequent water changes and the addition of buffer to maintain pH are required. Improving the fish’s immune system will also help. You can do this by the addition of beta glucan, vitamins and garlic to the fish’s diet while in treatment.

Watch closely for secondary infections as mentioned above. Antibiotics may need to be added. I would not recommend treating with antibiotics prophylactically or “just in case” as this can add stress or lead to drug resistant pathogens.

Another option would be to treat the main tank with copper. I do not recommend this method, especially in a reef system, one with live rock, or substrate. Copper will KILL inverts, corals and the micro fauna on the live rock. Furthermore, the substrate will leach/absorb the copper and the therapeutic treatment levels needed to cure/rid the parasite will not be achieved.

There are many ich cures marketed as “reef safe” - I do not recommend them. If you visit enough sites and talk to enough hobbyists, you will find those that highly recommend these products and then others that have had miserable or disastrous results….this is true about every aspect of life and science. I do not gamble when it comes to the life of an animal, fish or human.

If you don’t like these proven methods of cure, the only other option is to break down the tank and start over. So the best possible advice is to quarantine everything to begin with, you won’t regret it!

http://www.thepufferforum.com/forum/library/hospital/swich/

[ajolie30]

how long has ur system been established???? I have battled ich as well and it is very frustrating... I have lost quite a number of fish in the past but alot of questions alot of reading has helped me be better at this hobby...I am curently running on 2 years at saltwater and am proud of what I have accomplished so far especially being a woman in this hobby... I currently have 180 gallon tank that did have ich... now my approach is not the best approach but this is what I have done ... One I learned to maintain my water quality..

keepin up with ur maintance, water changes, and water testing is number one... next is also maintaining temperature as much as possible without major temp swings...

next is maintaining a refuge and keeping it clean as possible so that it can grow..

providing quality food

providing enough live rock to make ur fish have as less stress as possible remember we want to give theses animals the closet thing that we can to a real reef

and main thing being fish that are compatable with each other giving them enough room to grow and thrive being in a closed system

[ajolie30]

my approach on ich in the past has been hypo... of course I did the mistake got lazy bought a new fish and put it right in NO QUARANTINE.. and what do u know ich... now being that I had 180 gallon tank with well over 300lbs of rock i was not gonna break down and take everything out to get the fish.. This I feel would only cause more stress on the fish by chasing them around with the net being that they were already sick... I just decided to ride it out I increased my water changes maintained all paremeters added garlic and vitamens to their food and fed heavely.. I also purchased 2 XL diatom filters that i positioned on both ends of the tank I changed the diatom filters every 4 to 5 days continued with the filters for at least 2 weeks and since doing that I have not dealt with ich nor had any loss of fish.... take note my fish were all infected quite bad.... it has been 7 months since the ich and all fish show no signs as far as the eye can see and are fat and happy...and shall I say growing so much... i am in no way saying this is a cure or the route anyone should take but it is what i did.. diatom filters are known to remove the free floating form of the ich parasite and to me it has done wonders... does my tank still contain ich not sure but maintaining the proper invironment healthy foods and pristine water conditions has been in my favor

[vinnyvalentine]

all my water perm are at zero nitrates at 1ppm and temp at 80 i have rocks but they are not live rock i did do hypo salinity in my display tank i dont have qt nor money for one right now why didnt hypo work in display plus i think its wierd that its killing things so fast could it be something else

[ajolie30]

what do you mean by not live are they just dry base rock????? U can look for used tanks at ur local pet store or even use a rubber maid container just as long as u have a heater and some biological filtration with established bacteria on it...
hypo or and medication should never be used in ur main display tank.. crabs and snails can not tolerate the low salinity and will die and the bacteria on any of ur rock with die.. how old is ur tank and what are its contents???

do you have a sandbed/

do you have any rock that is alive???? meaning does it have any live bacteria on it being that it came from a cycled or established tank???

weather it was just base rock with no life on it or in it u don't want to use any rock in a hypo tank just use a bare bottom tank with pvc pipe for hiding places

hypo will kill inverts and a number of nitrifying bacteria tha is established in ur main tank... this bacteria is essential to the balance and well being an establishment of a helthy and strong system..

[vinnyvalentine]

i have a sand bed and its dry rock no life tanks 8 months old also should i put snowflake eel in qt too i also have a bunch of grass shrimp should they all go in qt??? im also concerned maybe it is not ich

[ajolie30]

what are u also using to check ur salinity its very important to keep it steady as I said at 1.009... a refractometer that is calibrated correctly should be used those plastic swing arm ones are not good at all and are never accurate.. u also don't want to go below 1.009 and u have to keep a check on ur ammonia levels as well as ur ph levels which swing alot during hypo... any of theses things out of wack will affect a fish that is already compromised with ich...


what are you feedng ur fish during my bout of ich I used crushed up garlic that i did myself and I also added vitamens to there food which was a combination a mysis, veggies, brine shrimp, marine cusine, oh god alot of different foods that i soaked in this garlic and vitamens over nite... it doesn't cure ich but a well fed fish and they say garlic helps them a little with their immune system how much whos knows but I use it... as stated a well fed fish has a better chance of survival to fight off the infection

[Mathews Z7]

...............i have rocks but they are not live rock

IF they've been wet and have remained wet (especialy for 8 months as you say) they are most certainly live rock now, it may not be prime quality with an over abundance of funa life and coralline but it's live none the less.

[ajolie30]

shrimp do not get ich and cannot tolerate hypo salinity... no inverts should be subjected to hypo...hypo can also kill ur sandbed if it is alive... this is why u should never under any circustances use hypo in ur main display tank...

what are u using for filtration??? what size is ur tank and do u have a refuge???

ich looks like small grains of salt on ur fish which u may see them rub up against the rocks or sand.. it is very aggressive and it goes through cycles where its on the fish then off free swimming in the water to make its next attack

if ur tank is not established meaning having enough bacteria to sustain ur tank and its inhabbitants a sick fish will have a hard time fihgting off the ich which results in it dying

hypo in ur main tank where u are trying to establish enough bacteria... having enough rock to support a healty system is no good u are only killing and destroying that bacteria u are trying to establish

[ajolie30]

yes the rock may be live but how much is uncertain... I started my 180 gallon with about 200lbs of base rock but seeded it with about a little over a 100lbs f live rock that has been established with life for many years.. i also have a sandbed that was new but seeded with about 3 cups of establised sand..


my question is this did u have a rock that was established to seed that base rock u have or was it all dry before u put it in ur tank???


and any bacteria that was alive on ur rock u may have killed off alot of it by doing hypo in that tank therefore loosing alot of ur nitrifying bacteria that is important to have in a healty tank that is strong..

look up hypo it will tell you to never do in ur main display... but its is all a learning experience ...we all have made mistakes we wouldn't be human if we didn't right..

[vinnyvalentine]

i have a hang on back filter right now on 55 gallon im bout to order a new sump cant decide on wet dry or refigium what do you think is better and why??? i am gonna take your advice and set up qt in a rubbermaid can i use my hang on back if i build sump or will that transfer the ich i thought it would maybe kick start a cycle in qt as i dont wanna go threw 5 bags of sallt with constent water changes so as of now on your advice i am gonna move fish and eel to qt and hypo them and maintain display as is with new sump per your advice and leave shrimp and snails and hermit in display what do you think???

[ajolie30]

rock I believe I may be wrong if it is baserock without any rock that is established will have a hard time becoming live... to some degree yes maybe a little but with nothing to give it that boost that is established how can base rock become alive??

[ajolie30]

the main display needs to stay fishless for about 8 weeks... u need a sponge filter that has some good bactreia on it to give u a base for ur filtration.... for my quaratine tank I used some pvc pipes and some sponges that were in my sump to get good bacterai on it i also put too cheap power heads in it I will try to show u some pics

[ajolie30]

when u can and have the money i know live rock can be expensive but try to get some rock from ur pet store that is established to seed ur main tank... those pieces of rock will seed ur baserock and give it the bacteria that it needs to have a strong healty tank

[ajolie30]

for my sump I used a 20 inch long glass tank that I put pieces of acrylic in to divide into sections.. one section has my filter socks the middle chamber has my refuge and the 3rd section has my returns

u can also make a sump out of a rubbermaid container
you just need to look on this forum or on the net for some diy instructions its not hard

[ajolie30]

let me get u some pics of my qurantine there really quite simply to do

100774

[ajolie30]

here u go

[Mathews Z7]

rock I believe I may be wrong if it is baserock without any rock that is established will have a hard time becoming live... to some degree yes maybe a little but with nothing to give it that boost that is established how can base rock become alive??

it becomes live with nitrifying and denitrifying bacteria, live rock does not mean it contains funa life nor coralline algae and all it takes is for it to be wet and remain wet and changes in salinity will kill the bacteria and cause it to recycle, same for sand.........

[ajolie30]

I used a hang on filter and two power heads with two seeded sponges connected to the bottom of the power heads