HELP low pH!

[reefified]

I am not sure what I have going on but for some reason, my pH is low and doesn't seem to raise. My params are as follows:

pH: 7.7 (or lower depending on time of testing)
SG: 1.026
Ca: 420
alk:10.6
Mag:1400


My tank is 60 gallon, rimless, MP40, 2-250 mh, 4-t5's, 20 gal sump with skimmer and refugium, started 10 weeks ago with 40 pounds of marco rock, 15 pounds of cured live rock, seeded refugium with buddies sand and used his old water for the first 5 weeks of water changes and initial setup. Live stock includes nice assortment of snails and crabe, 1 cleaner shrimp, 2 pepp. shrimp, 1 emerald crab, 1 coral banded shrimp, 2 babie black clowns, red bubble tip and 8 small frags of SPS. LPS and zoes.

I currently use Seachem Reef salt, add Seachem Reef Complete, Reef Builder and Reef Advantage Mag.to attempt to keep those numbers right.

I have no idea what to do at this point. I have tested using both Salifert and the API kits.

Any imput from the more experienced out there would help. Thank you.

[marclwheeler]

good job reefified... this is prolly not the first time someone has experienced this... we need more forum like this to help others work through these types of problems...

[overklok]

What are you using to test the pH?

[reefified]

I am using both the Salifert and API test kits.

[marclwheeler]

he stated salifert and api... both are new...

[bertoni]

Low pH is caused by a high carbon dioxide, most often in the air in the house. You could try aerating a cup of water outside for a few hours. That'll tell us whether the pH kits are okay. After that, you could try aerating a cup of water indoors for a few hours. That'll tell us whether the carbon dioxide problem is from the ambient air or from a tank aeration problem.

[marclwheeler]

I've seen this guys house its a $350,000... that is only 2years old and he is an engineer...I think its got adequite air flow... its in his office tho I would be more inclined to think the latter... as he has a aqua c 120 for a skimmer... which he is gonna switch that out w/ a downdraft on monday... so that might take care of some of the ox in the water... only thing i was thinking is the rock is still curing and that might be causing it... its got me plexed... maybe randy could come in and give us his .02

[bertoni]

Oh, okay, curing live rock can drop the pH considerably. :) I wouldn't expect that to be an issue in a tank that's been stocked, though.

[reefified]

I don't know if the Oxygen is low. I guess I would be inclined to think that the Mp40 breaking the water surface in an uncovered aquarium, low amount of livestock using the oxygen, skimmer stirring things up, a nice amount of greenery in the refugium using CO2 and creating O that there would be a good amount in there. If it is low, how does a guy go about solving this? The corals look stressed out. They are alive but dull in color. This system evaporates almost a gallon a day. I installed an ATO connected directly to my RO/DI system. Would it help to move the MP40 up slightly to get a little more surface turbulance? I hate to say it but I could try adding air exchange in the sump via an air stone if that would help. Seems pretty redundant considering the overflow and skimmer appear to be doing a fine job of that already.

[reefified]

One thing worth adding is that the rock marclwheeler mentions is curing is dead marco rock, not "live rock" that has died.

[bertoni]

Oxygen and carbon dioxide levels aren't related. It's very common to have high carbon dioxide and fully-saturated oxygen levels. I don't think the issue is the rocks, personally.

[reefified]

I don't think the rock is the issue either. What would contribut to the high CO2 levels? Bacteria? Overfeeding? Lack of fully cured live rock?

[bertoni]

Most often it's people and gas appliances. :)

[reefified]

I have a gas furnace, heat and fire place. The top is rimless and open to the air. I wonder if I should leave the door closed to the office where the tank is and run my house fan around the clock. What else can be done to raise the pH/lower the CO2?

[bchnit1]

Houseplants??

[bertoni]

A limewater drip is an easy approach that can help a lot. Some people get some results from running a skimmer line to the outside, but others don't. There are carbon dioxide scrubbers that will do the job, but they are expensive to run. A reverse-lit refugium can be useful, too.

[BigMike75]

I had the same problem and started using Kalk in my top off water and it is now staying around 8 - 8.1. My tanks are in my basement and I believe that it is a CO2 issue from heating my house.

I started out using 1 tsp per gallon of top off water.

[reefified]

I have plenty of houseplanta. I do run a reverse lit refugium and I have a carbon filter on my skimmer air valve. I could try a limewater drip.

[bertoni]

The carbon filter won't remove carbon dioxide, but it can help with other problems.

[cagey]

I've been reading and following PH. I just started using a pinpoint ph monitor to find my PH at 7.6. My alkalinity was low also. I added Kent alkalinty buffer and foolishly chased PH using that method. So today I just observed the monitor. This morning was 7.96 and now 8.05. This is on a 180 and 75 interconnected w/ a 22 fuge siphon between 180 & 22.
How is a drip set up??? Is it OK to ask here or should I have started a new thread??
Thanx

[cagey]

how is a limewater drip set up?? like acclimation drip?

[marclwheeler]

reefified... looks like you have some more trial and error ahead of you... goodluck...

[marclwheeler]

one thing is certain...I guess you won't be running a calcium reactor...that would prolly lower your ph more...

[reefified]

cagey-keep it on this thread, I am interested too. I have an auto topoff setup that is directly attached to my RO/DI in the basement. I don't want to change this because I have limited space in my stand and my wife will not allow me to have a bucket or other crude method sitting next to the system. Since my setup is small (60 gallons) I could add a kent doser in the stand with the limewater. Will this be sufficient? Setup?? Also, I had a phosban reactor that was running carbon and phosban at a 5:1 ratio. This has been running since setup. I took offline yesterday per marclwheelers recommendation. I hope this will allow my macro algea to grow now that they will have more nutrients, which should help consume the CO2. If I were to purchase one of the CO2 scrubbers (any recommendations) and add it to my new downdraft skimmer coming today, would I be ok to see how things go before adding the limewater drip? Will the scrubber have that much of an impact since I also have the tank open to the air and fairly well stirred at the surface? Right now, as mentioned, I add Seachem products to keep alk, mag and Ca in the upper limits of the recommended ranges. It seems to be working so I hate to abandon. Sorry about all the questions.

[marclwheeler]

have checked ur other parameters l8ly ammonia, nitrites all that just 2 rule out kids/wifey messing w/ it!!!!LOL

[marclwheeler]

chad did u mention that rusted clamp u just took off see if that could've caused any harm...

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I would not agonize over very low pH if it is measured by a test kit as they are often inaccurate.

Double check it with a pH meter, IMO. That said, it could well be low. Low pH is common due to elevated home CO2 levels.

New homes are usually by far the worst with respect to CO2 build up since they are made more air tight to be energy efficient.

This has more on low pH:

Low pH: Causes and Cures
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-09/rhf/index.htm

[bertoni]

We have very little data on how the air scrubbers work, since they're expensive, but from what I've seen, it'd have an impact. I think the media for the scrubber can be bought at BulkReefSupply.com, but I don't know what kind of unit people have been using to hold it.

As far as using a small container for limewater inside the system, that'd work well, but it'd be higher maintenance than a unit attached to a RO/DI system. I always used a reservoir, but I could fit a couple of weeks of topoff into my setup.

[reefified]

I could look into using the scrubber media in the pvc manifold I have built and attached to my skimmer if that would work. I am not sure how much contact it needs or what would be adequate but the ones I saw online look like any other type of reactor. I could also use the limewater at a higher concentration in a drip that is not necessarily my top off since I have that coming from the RO/DI in the basement. Is that possible? How do I determine the concentration and dosing regime? I assume that I would need to abandon my current 2 part method as well. It also sounds like I need to purchase the pH probe as well.

[bertoni]

Well, the easiest approach is to use limewater for all topoff, which some people do with a kalk reactor, basically an automated stirring device. The tank might require two-part dosing in addition to the lime, since limewater is a dilute supplement. That's fairly common.

The only way to determine how well lime will supply calcium and alkalinity is to try it, but the commercial two-parts are something like 70 times more concentrated than saturated limewater, and the DIY two-part is something like 35 times more concentrated, as a rough first approximation. If the limewater boosts the pH, though, consumption might rise a lot.

A pH controller might be useful to prevent accidental overdoses of limewater, or you could create a more complicated setup