why?

[laurajrc]

Can someone give me some guidance? I got 2 clowns (percula; not tank raised) on Saturday. I acclimated for a few hours as the instructions stated. They entered the tank and were so happy and swam all over and even though they weren't shipped together, they paired right up. They also seemed to buddy up with my 2 blue Chromis.

I have a Royal Gramma, a Wheeler's Goby, 2 emerald crabs, 2 turbo snails, 4 tonga nassarius, 4 little nassarius, 4 trochus, 4 red little crabs, 7 small corals, 2 peppermint shrimp, various other snails as well for a total of about 20 snails altogether. I have about 50 pounds of live rock and a 50 gallon tank. It cycled for about 2 months before adding anything. The fish have been added last.

I have a sugar sand substrate that always looks poopy and dirty with black sediment on the bottom of it. Under the top, you can see layers of black stuff under the sand through the glass. Don't know what that is? Well, I often stir up the sand to mix it up and did so today with the new little guys. They were fine while I was doing so and seemed fine while the tank was clearing up. Then, I saw one dead on the bottom of the tank in the sand. The other clown seems upset and is now swimming toward the top of the tank and I'm afraid he may go too.

I feed a variety of foods to the fish so they have their needs met. High quality flake / pellet mix, zooplankton, seaweed on a clip, freeze dried brine and frozen shrimp, also freeze dried bloodworms. I give the tiniest pinch in the morn and at night, give them the frozen shrimp and some bloodworms; once again..a very small amount.

The little clowns were eating like mad yesterday but now that the one died, the other won't eat anything. What do you suggest?

Also, is sugar sand the best substrate or should I add some coral shell/sand substrate too? My calcium runs around 380 and I add some each day to bring it up; my corals seem to be sucking it all in and I try to keep it at least around 400. All of my tests run well; no nitrates, ph was down just a bit at 8.0 and so I added a ph buffer which brough it to 8.4 again. Salinity is good too. I just don't know if my daily stirring of the sand freaked him out and he died of shock or what? Help!

[Octoshark]

When was the last time you tested your water parameters?

Ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate are all zero right now and have been for some time?

Is this a new tank, how long has it been up?

[Octoshark]

Also, IMO I would just leave the pH alone instead of adding buffers and stuff to try to maintain it. It is more important to keep it stable. A pH of 8.0 is fine.

I'm not sure but maybe that rapid incease in pH from 8 up to 8.4 had something to do with the fish's death. Not sure though.

[Aquarist007]

Have you tested for ammonia.
I would redirect your power heads so there is more movement across the substrate.

I prefer medium grade argonite over the sugar sand. If you add the coral shell you could end up with the same problem you have now in that they can trap nitrates and turn very black and dirty.
Rather then stirring the sand everyday buy some necessarius snails who will do it for you.

Low pH is usually significant of rising carbon dioxide levels--adding more flow and making sure the tank is not covered is a good way to help that
Try not to add buffers---alot of them contain borate which can raise the alkalinity level in your tank. Usually alkalinity tests measure carbonates which are what the corals need. Raising the level of borates will raise the alkalinity level but not give you a true reading on the carbonates level.

Frozen foods should be rinised prior to using as they can contain alot of phophates and nitrates which could be responsible for the growth on your substrate. Do not be fooled by a zero nitrate reading.The algae and cyano could be consuming them as fast as they are being introduced into your tank.

Other then the ammonia however, none of these factors should kill a fish. It could have been overly stressed out prior to you purchasing it

[burtonpj48]

I understand what you are going thru, I have gone thru so many clown fishes,i must have gone thru 10 or so. I dont understand it either. my last clown that died on me lasted 3 hrs. After i acclimated him, and put him in the sump to watch for him, it started breathing hard, then it started to go close to the top of sump, i knew it was gona go soon. Im just wondering if its psychological on the fishes part. I have a new clown to pair up with the one i have now, I bought it last week, they were buddies in less that 5 min. the older one shared its anemone, right away to the newer one. Now the newer one wont eat. So i dont know what to do anymore. Im getting tired of clown fish that die on me. Its starting to cost alot of money replacing them>

[Jstdv8]

possibly PH shock

[jbird69]

The dark layers you see in your sand bed are normal. It is a sign of the nitrification process. Look at any healthy tank with a mature sand bed and youll see those darker layers. You do not want to mix it up. You are releasing high concentrations of nitrates and possibly even ammonia when you stir a sand bed. I am almost positive this is what happened in your tank. Do a couple liberal water changes and leave the sand bed alone. Its ok to siphon the detritus off the sand or even stir the surface of the sand but do not upset the layers.

[lordofthereef]

Swimming to the top of the tank can also be an indication of poor oxygenation. What kind of circulation do you have in the tank. I assume no skimmer?

[mak3mydae]

I understand what you are going thru, I have gone thru so many clown fishes,i must have gone thru 10 or so. I dont understand it either. my last clown that died on me lasted 3 hrs. After i acclimated him, and put him in the sump to watch for him, it started breathing hard, then it started to go close to the top of sump, i knew it was gona go soon. Im just wondering if its psychological on the fishes part. I have a new clown to pair up with the one i have now, I bought it last week, they were buddies in less that 5 min. the older one shared its anemone, right away to the newer one. Now the newer one wont eat. So i dont know what to do anymore. Im getting tired of clown fish that die on me. Its starting to cost alot of money replacing them>

I dont mean to hi-jack your thread, but to this post, you may want to stop buying clownfish like experiments. Try finding the root cause of the death, and then try putting another one in. If all else fails, perhaps clownfish just arnt for you.

To the OP, stiring up your sandbed is generally a pretty bad thing to do. Perhaps releasing nitrogen and amonia like what other people have said. If its a deep sand bed, all the more reason not to stir it up. What i've found helpful is to d a very light vac just on the top layer.

Out of curiosity, do you test Alkalinity? Just dosing calcium is not enough. You may want to read up on alk

[afernandez]

one thing is for sure SOMETHING IS WRONG i've always had clowns and they are one of the hardiest fish-ever! please fallow these guys advise and make sure you test your water before you add live stock. my guess would be either salinity is low or really high(makes their lugs work harder hence the heavy breathing), ammonia is high, and ph maybe low. or un-appropriate acclimation. and your nutrients have to be off the chart. do some testing.

[Jachael]

+1 on the don't stir up those dark layers of your sand bed.

That could absolutely have shocked your fish. Especially if you did it within the first week of acclimating them (ie they were already stressed to begin with).

[MrsHaggis]

+1 - don't stir up the sand bed.
It can release all kinds of crap into the water.

[MrsHaggis]

+1 - don't stir up the sand bed.
It can release all kinds of crap into the water.

[laurajrc]

so, I am understanding that I shouldn't stir up the sand bed...yikes! My kh is perfect, as are my other levels but my calcium is always on the lower end of acceptable so I do add about a tbl per day. My levels were all great before putting the fish in so I don't believe that was the problem. My ammonia and other levels were also just fine..I use a test kit with the drops; not a test strip so I know that I am getting accurate levels when I test. How does one syphon the detrius off the bottom? It all just seems to float around the place and I have 3 large tonga nassarium and 4 little ones and they aren't doing the job. I did just add another emerald the other day and he seems to be eating some of the stuff. However, I saw him picking stuff off of my cat's paw coral...they don't eat them do they? The coral looked fine today after last night's picking.

Lastly, this one remaining clown is lost! He looks like he misses his buddy. Can I have more than two clowns in a tank? He looks fine. I wonder if the other was sick when I got him. My other tank inhabitants look fine too.

50 gallon tank
protein skimmer (yes I have one)
blowers in the tank (water is circulated really well and moving)
2 blue chromis
1 royal gramma
7 nassarius
2 turbo
2 green emerald crabs
3 hermits (found the remains of one on the sand this morn)
8 other snails
2 peppermint shrimp
1 wheeler's goby
cat's paw coral
zoos
one tree like fuzzy coral (hard)
5 soft corals

[potterjon]

I constantly stir up my sand bed. But I do not have a deep sand bed. I only think you should see those layers if you are running a sand bed deeper than 4 inches. That is when you get those layers of black sand. I stir mine up at lease once a week. If your clowns are wild caught, then they are not the easiest to acclimate to tank life. I would buy aquacultured fish whenever possible. They are hardier in aquariums. Wild caught fish have been collected (by whatever means) and then shipped across the world and put in several holding tanks until they get to your store and into your tank. This is all very stressful on the fish. Breathing hard is usually a sign of ammonia or low oxygen.
Also, some of the lower end test kits simply aren't good enough. When working at the lfs we would constantly get different readings from different test kits on the low end made by the same company. They simply aren't accurate enough in my opinion.
Hope this helps! Just my thoughts.

[Beaun]

two clowns in a 50 gallon is all I would, and nearly everyone, recommend. Any more than two and you will have a pair and an extra that is harrassed and probably killed.

[Sk8r]

Whoa.
Black under the sand bed means you need to address that problem, fast. Get 3 large nassarius snails or one small fighting-conch. Let them work for a month, and you should see that disappear. If those are not to your taste, get a yellow watchman goby.

As a rule, if you lose a fish, assume there's a tank problem. Test. See the parameters in my sig? Try for those. Do NOT replace the fish until you have located the cause and corrected it.

Clowns are extremely aggressive and will claim all of a 50 gallon tank. They will tolerate other fish, but will make their lives miserable once they start reproducing. I had two clarkiis in a 100g that used to bite me and draw blood every time I had to put my hand in the tank. Percs are a little better, but tomatos are many times worse.

[Chiefsurfer]

if your calcium is hard to keep up, i doubt your corals are using it all, but rather that your magnesium is too high or low. You must have the right magnesium to get the right calcium.

How deep is your sand-bed? 4" or more, never stir it by hand. Get sand-stirring critters. Sand-sifting snails do a great job, as well as sand-sifting gobies. Sand-sifting gobies will need a fair amount of sand tho.

Also, acclimation should not be a few hours for most fish. Usually much shorter actually, maybe 30-45 minutes. Much longer, and you are stressing the fish out more. Also sounds like you are over-feeding quite a bit. I'd feed one type of food, once a day. You can alternate food, like shrimp monday, bloodworms tuesday, flakes and pellets wednesday, then repeat. Also, I would give enough seaweed for them to consume in about 30 min. 1x every week, and probably zooplankton about 1x every 2 weeks.

Lastly, you say you have plenty of flow, but can we have types of pumps or gph numbers? Not that this should play a part in the fish dying, but something that might help us figure out what is going on.

[IslandCrow]

Could you detail exactly how you acclimated the fish. I'm with Chiefsurfer. It shouldn't take 3 hours, especially since all that time, ammonia is building up in a very confined space. This shouldn't be a huge issue if you just drove the fish 30 minutes from the fish store, but mail order, it could be too much. Depleted oxygen content could also be a concern in either case if you spend too much time acclimating.

Did you notice any marks or discoloration on the fish? As others have stated, clownfish (even wild caught) are quite hardy little fish. I've lost a few, but two were very clearly from disease (Brooklynella) and the other was a botched attempt at pairing two maroons (so much for my DIY isolation container).

[Aquarist007]

I always measure the salinity. pH and alkalinity in the bag water first. This tells me how much time to acclimatize a new addition, which could be from 5 min to overnight in a separate tank(in the case of snails which usually arrive in 1.018 salinity)

[blennydude]

+1 make3mydae

Please don't buy another clown because yours looks sad. There is definatly something off w/ your tank. The clown was not sick before he arrived. Don't be a 007 agent w/ a license to kill, clown fish.

[laurajrc]

well, to answer some questions... my tests all show positive signs that things are right in the tank. However, the clown has some ich now and still swims near the top of the tank. I noted him rubbing on the sand bed before swimming back up. He doesn't seem to eat but I use brine shrimp and zooplankton and he may be eating that. I read that I need to turn my heat up to 84 degrees. This will speed up the ich parasites and they will release from the body. I am supposed to get my uv sterilizer tomorrow and hopefully that will kill the bacteria in the water. The poor clown is just itching. I noted that my chromis looked a bit spotty too. I can't afford a QT. So, besides the heat, what else do you suggest for treating the ich? I have corals, a goby, royal gramma and 2 chromis besides the clown.

[laurajrc]

Also, acclimation should not be a few hours for most fish. Usually much shorter actually, maybe 30-45 minutes. Much longer, and you are stressing the fish out more. Also sounds like you are over-feeding quite a bit. I'd feed one type of food, once a day. You can alternate food, like shrimp monday, bloodworms tuesday, flakes and pellets wednesday, then repeat. Also, I would give enough seaweed for them to consume in about 30 min. 1x every week, and probably zooplankton about 1x every 2 weeks.

Lastly, you say you have plenty of flow, but can we have types of pumps or gph numbers? Not that this should play a part in the fish dying, but something that might help us figure out what is going on.

Chief, I float the bag, then open it and keep the bag floating. I tape the bag to the side and every 20 min., add a shotglass of my tank water until the bag is full. Then, I pour the fish into a net and put it in the tank. My blowers are a name brand that I can't remember right now :( but they are a number 2 size and keep the aeration going well.

[laurajrc]

Also, acclimation should not be a few hours for most fish. Usually much shorter actually, maybe 30-45 minutes. Much longer, and you are stressing the fish out more. Also sounds like you are over-feeding quite a bit. I'd feed one type of food, once a day. You can alternate food, like shrimp monday, bloodworms tuesday, flakes and pellets wednesday, then repeat. Also, I would give enough seaweed for them to consume in about 30 min. 1x every week, and probably zooplankton about 1x every 2 weeks.

Lastly, you say you have plenty of flow, but can we have types of pumps or gph numbers? Not that this should play a part in the fish dying, but something that might help us figure out what is going on.

Chief, I float the bag, then open it and keep the bag floating. I tape the bag to the side and every 20 min., add a shotglass of my tank water until the bag is full. Then, I pour the fish into a net and put it in the tank. My blowers are a name brand that I can't remember right now :( but they are a number 2 size and keep the aeration going well.

[IslandCrow]

I read that I need to turn my heat up to 84 degrees. This will speed up the ich parasites and they will release from the body. I am supposed to get my uv sterilizer tomorrow and hopefully that will kill the bacteria in the water.

Although this is partly true, it really isn't going to help. Yes, you speed up the lifecycle of the parasite, but it doesn't die, nor does it necessarily mean the fish is no longer infected. Even if it did, the parasite continues its life cycle in the tank and it's just going to speed up how quickly the rest of your fish are infected. The best way to treat for ich is always to remove the infected fish (which may very well be all of them at this point) to a hospital tank and treat them there.

Chief, I float the bag, then open it and keep the bag floating. I tape the bag to the side and every 20 min., add a shotglass of my tank water until the bag is full. Then, I pour the fish into a net and put it in the tank.

Depending on how much different the salinities are, this may not be nearly enough to match them. I got a couple peppermint shrimp a week ago, and the salinity was 30 ppt (as opposed to the 35ppt in my tank). I had to fill up the bag, empty half the water out and fill it up again before the salinities matched. Like the Capn, I always check the salinity before I start, and then again before I add the fish. The alternative is to actually break out the calculator and figure out how much water it's going to take, but that makes my head hurt.

[IridescentLily]

The dark layers you see in your sand bed are normal. It is a sign of the nitrification process. Look at any healthy tank with a mature sand bed and youll see those darker layers. You do not want to mix it up. You are releasing high concentrations of nitrates and possibly even ammonia when you stir a sand bed. I am almost positive this is what happened in your tank. Do a couple liberal water changes and leave the sand bed alone. Its ok to siphon the detritus off the sand or even stir the surface of the sand but do not upset the layers.
Yes. I agree that this is the cause as well.