Warning about Microbubbles from skimmers

[NarakuAulonocar]

I wish to warn others that micro bubbles CAN kill fish.

I have a coralife 65 skimmer.
For the first few weeks my Starcki damsel was irratated b/c of the micro-bubbles from the skimmer. I know because he was fine for a year before I added the skimmer. He started twiching alot. In fact all my fish did to an extent. One day, I turned the skimmer off and was doing water changes and he just died. It look like he was paralyzed. His gills were red and open. Perhaps the micro-bubbles stuck to his gills and suffocated him.

My blue tang also started getting pit dots on his face. I think the microbubbles irritated his pores.

I now go skimmerless b/c I can't get the micro-bubbles to stop
There are professionals who advocate the dangers:
http://www.oxyedge-chum.com/diffuser,_oxygen_bubbles.htm



Moderators PLEASE make this a sticky if you feel necessary




P.S.

Are there any way to get rid of micro-bubbles. I will have a sump if I choose to use a skimmer again.

Does anyone have similar experiences?

[VoodooMach]

Is this a troll or serious?

[mak3mydae]

Ummmm.... I dont think they actually killed your fish. If it became red and irritated, perhaps it was a parasite or some form of gill-fluke or something. I dont believe micro bubbles can kill fish...

[mhltcob]

Micro bubbles in and of themselves will not kill fish...there are microbubbles in the natural environment and fish live just fine in tanks that have airstones. Where you can cause fish kills (I'm talking an entire aquarium within a matter of an hour or two) is when you have air getting injected into a high pressure area. This will cause supersaturation. It is especially common in public aquariums that use very big pumps and have long runs of pipe (ie very high pressure). The higher pressure inside the plumbing causes the water to have a higher capacity to hold dissolved gasses. You combine that with either a leak on the intake side of the pump or a low sump level and you now have supersaturated water entering the fish tank. The higher than normal levels of nitrogen come out of solution in the fish's blood stream causing exothalmia, hemorrhaging, and death. This will not happen by adding airstones or a protein skimmer to your aquarium (and in fact can help resolve the issue).

[lordofthereef]

micro bubbles in and of themselves will not kill fish...there are microbubbles in the natural environment and fish live just fine in tanks that have airstones.

+1

[VacavilleFC3S]

micro bubbles did not kill your fish will you please not spam it everywhere

[VoodooMach]

I think the OP imagining that his coralife 65 HOB worked on anything greater than a 20gallon with 2 clowns was the real crime here...

[elijaher]

It's called air straw which can kill livestock in reef tank But highly uncommon.

[NarakuAulonocar]

Hi everyone,

It just doesn't make sense that my fish be fine and start to have problems after the skimmer. They were actually fine for over a year and never scratched before I put the skimmer so I would rule out gill parasite.
I still think it has to do with the skimmer if not the micro-bubbles from it.
The damsel actually died the day I turned off the skimmer for a water change, could it be that turning the skimmer off did something? As I said before, the skimmer caused twitching in all of my damsels. I rule out water contaminants b/c I have always changed their water from the same source and if it was a contaminant, the damsel would not be the only one affected.

Perhaps I have a faulty skimmer which caused super high pressure.

mhltcob, Is it possible that my tank or skimmer has super high pressure.

How to you get rid of microbubbles for a coralife skimmer? I have the overflow box and bubbles still go out. I have also followed the instructions for the overflow box.
I think it wouldn't hurt to rid the bubbles anyways.

[NarakuAulonocar]

After rereading the post, the only thing I can say is WOW:eek2:
Some people here (Not all) seem pretty rude and unprofessional.
It was not my intention to spam.
I lost an expensive fish and I didn't want it happening to others so I though it was important to let others know of my experience.

I thought this forum was about helping others with their problems pertaining to the hobby.
Seems like I won't get any help if some people can't even fix their own problems. :thumbdown

Now if there are any one who can answer my question on high pressure and stoping microbubbles, that would be appreciated

Thank you and kind regards

[mhltcob]

mhltcob, Is it possible that my tank or skimmer has super high pressure.

How to you get rid of microbubbles for a coralife skimmer? I have the overflow box and bubbles still go out. I have also followed the instructions for the overflow box.
I think it wouldn't hurt to rid the bubbles anyways.

No, the skimmer was not the cause unless it dumped the outlet into a high pressure pump and return line. Even than it would cause signs different than what you saw.

I suspect a pathogen as well. Did you add any new livestock, live rock, or macroalgae to your tank? Live foods?

[flyingace2005]

Did you check for stray voltage? The pump might have been leaking voltage into the tank and that can easily kill fish.

[leeit2me]

WOW!!. never heard of micro bubbles being a killer...

One time my MJ 1200 power head air valve fell off and it was just sucking major and blowing it into the tank. It was doing this for 1 1/2 days till I got back home and saw what was going on.. After fixing the the valve.. and looking at the live stocks.. besides all being bubble coated, they are all alive. After couple of hours, it all dissipated and it was back to normal again. NO!, micro bubbles didn't kill my live stocks.. (wish it kill this one demsal I have)... LOL..

[jmccown]

Tidal surges in the ocean are micro-bubbles.

[NarakuAulonocar]

No, the skimmer was not the cause unless it dumped the outlet into a high pressure pump and return line. Even than it would cause signs different than what you saw.

I suspect a pathogen as well. Did you add any new livestock, live rock, or macroalgae to your tank? Live foods?

Nothing added. Thanks

[NarakuAulonocar]

Did you check for stray voltage? The pump might have been leaking voltage into the tank and that can easily kill fish.

Hi, don't want to be a smart *** (sorry)
But if it were stray voltage, wouldn't the other fish die as well?

Thanks for helping though.

[NarakuAulonocar]

I take it that you are saying high pressure pumps and returns used in sumps?

Thanks




No, the skimmer was not the cause unless it dumped the outlet into a high pressure pump and return line. Even than it would cause signs different than what you saw.

I suspect a pathogen as well. Did you add any new livestock, live rock, or macroalgae to your tank? Live foods?

[VacavilleFC3S]

also fish do not have pores,

the pitting you describe in your tangs head is most likely HLLE or hole in the head disease

[sanchoy]

micro bubbles did not kill your fish..

[NarakuAulonocar]

also fish do not have pores,

the pitting you describe in your tangs head is most likely HLLE or hole in the head disease


The tang didn't have it until a week after I installed the skimmer.
Ironically I installed the skimmer to prevent it.

Perhaps the skimmer removed trace elements from the water

[johnr2604]

also fish do not have pores,

the pitting you describe in your tangs head is most likely HLLE or hole in the head disease Which seems to have a link to stray voltage a lot of times. I guess its got to be the microbubbles though LOL

[NarakuAulonocar]

Ok since none of you think its microbubbles.
Is there definite proof that its NOT microbubbles though?
Based on what I observed, microbubles would be the only rationale explanation.

I read somewhere that microbubbles invisible to the eye could travel through the blood stream and cause issues.

Perhaps the tang and the heniochus were bigger so their gills were still able to function. But the smaller damsels were clogged?

Actually I forgot to mention I had another Chrysiptera hemicyaena that had the same symptom and almost dyed. I picked him up and shaked him near the power filter's outflow and was able to save him. Perhaps the out flow dissipated the excess bubbles in his gills?



The only other explanation is stray voltage then (assuming microbubbles can be ruled out, which I'm not sold yet)?
What can I do? I read that a grounding probe could actually cause current to flow.
But grounding probes seem to be the only solution mentioned for stray voltage? :confused:

Any help?

[Peale]

You said you turnerd off the skimmer to do a water change. Did you check the temp, salinity, etc of the new water you added? Is there any chance the bucket you used was contaminated?

I think turning off the skimmer was just a coincidence happening at the same time as whatever actually killed the fish.

[Grant W]

IMO it sure sounds like voltage maybe swap out pump from skimmer and see if things improve or put the old skimmer back in and run carbon maybe there was solvent or something on the skimmer

[nikon187]

100% not from the skimmer.. And the skimmer is not causing the holes in the tang. It is a nutritional disease and has nothing to do with bubbles.

[NarakuAulonocar]

You said you turnerd off the skimmer to do a water change. Did you check the temp, salinity, etc of the new water you added? Is there any chance the bucket you used was contaminated?

I think turning off the skimmer was just a coincidence happening at the same time as whatever actually killed the fish.

I checked salininity temp etc. I only use the same bucket for fish.
All my other fish are bright and fine today (w/out skimmer)
The blue tang looks brighter today.

[TheH]

Do you have any pictures of the affected fish?

[luther1200]

The twitching you keep describing is usually a sign of stray voltage. I think your skimmer pump was leaking voltage.

When exactly did the fish die? Was it when you turned the pump on or off specifically? Or just mid-water changer?

[d0ughb0y]

did you buy the skimmer used? perhaps the previous owner used chemicals toxic to fish to clean it.

[NarakuAulonocar]

Do you have any pictures of the affected fish?

Sorry, I flushed him. He was one of my favorite too. :(

FYI, I also had a chrysiptera hemicyaenea who recovered.
Since its recovered, I don't think photos would help.

[NarakuAulonocar]

The twitching you keep describing is usually a sign of stray voltage. I think your skimmer pump was leaking voltage.

When exactly did the fish die? Was it when you turned the pump on or off specifically? Or just mid-water changer?

How would I deal with stray voltage? I heard probes could cause currents to flow through the tank.


It was mid water change. I actually took off the original skimmer and put on another skimmer sea clone (with the air intake) shut. That produced no bubbles and I thought it would aid in circulation, sort of like a power head

[NarakuAulonocar]

did you buy the skimmer used? perhaps the previous owner used chemicals toxic to fish to clean it.

No, its new as I know unless the store lied to me.

[Mustang Boy]

with stray voltage you find out exactly which device is leaking the voltage and replace it with a new one

[luther1200]

with stray voltage you find out exactly which device is leaking the voltage and replace it with a new one

+1

[drparker]

There are two LFS near me with beautiful display tanks that have surge device that introduce a ton of micro bubbles every ten minutes or so, I've been admiring the effect in these tanks for years and wish I had the space to add one to my system.

I've also read several post over the years from marine biologist that state micro bubbles are a natural occurrence on reefs the only problem with them is that we don't like to look at them in our crystal clear water.

[Poorcollegereef]

Did you know that ice cream sales occur at the same time there is a increase in the number of reported drowning cases? Some assume that ice cream = drowning

It is called a spurious relationship. It is similar to your claim about the skimmer kills fish.

You added a skimmer into a declining tank. The death resulted at the same time as adding a skimmer but this it is not a causal relationship. I won't even go as far as stray voltage killed them but I would not rule it out. There is not enough information provided to determine a cause.

On a side note, I was at my favorite LFS and another guy with a HOB octo claimed the same thing (kinda) that adding a skimmer caused ich.

By the way, has anyone pointed to the thread about injecting air into the system to promote health? Microbubbles can aid a system!

[EMUReef]

Did you know that ice cream sales occur at the same time there is a increase in the number of reported drowning cases? Some assume that ice cream = drowning

It is called a spurious relationship. It is similar to your claim about the skimmer kills fish.

You added a skimmer into a declining tank. The death resulted at the same time as adding a skimmer but this it is not a causal relationship. I won't even go as far as stray voltage killed them but I would not rule it out. There is not enough information provided to determine a cause.

On a side note, I was at my favorite LFS and another guy with a HOB octo claimed the same thing (kinda) that adding a skimmer caused ich.

By the way, has anyone pointed to the thread about injecting air into the system to promote health? Microbubbles can aid a system!


epic response.

i feel that people who have freshwater tanks and use those bubble wands and air stones, would get the same results = dead fish but they don't.

you said that it isn't effecting all your fish, but microbubbles happen throughout the tank. so shouldn't it be effecting all the fish equally?

i agree with everyone else there is something else going on causing your fish to die.

[NarakuAulonocar]

epic response.

you said that it isn't effecting all your fish, but microbubbles happen throughout the tank. so shouldn't it be effecting all the fish equally?

i agree with everyone else there is something else going on causing your fish to die.


Like I said before, maybe the large fish has larger gills so are affected to a lesser extent.
OK so stray voltage is a more likely candidate.

Though wouldn't I have felt it while cleaning my tank?
How do you measure it? Is the measuring device expensive?

[Poorcollegereef]

Also, the link provided by the OP is dangerous, using both misinformation and false claims of authority. As an academic and a hobbyist I must comment on that.

The link provided is a (commercial) statement about BAIT fish disguised as legitimate info. It is not about saltwater hobby fish in a contained system, aka aquarium. It is about using oxygen saturated environment similar to keeping fish in a skimmer. At-least one academic quoted noted that problems arise when there is an overuse of the practice mentioned, not that bubbles kill fish. Still, there is no evidence that the academics support the unknown author's position and the Ph.D. are quoted from different works (possibly with a great deal of "liberty" aka lying and without citation in order to verify). It is an unknown claim by an unknown author without creditably as an authority, (possibly the copyright holder) who is associated with a business.

[drparker]

a simple volt/ohm meter from radio shack. Black lead to ground, then red lead into tank look for any voltage to register on the meter.

[NarakuAulonocar]

Also, the link provided by the OP is dangerous, using both misinformation and false claims of authority. As an academic and a hobbyist I must comment on that.

The link provided is a (commercial) statement about BAIT fish disguised as legitimate info. It is not about saltwater hobby fish in a contained system, aka aquarium. It is about using oxygen saturated environment similar to keeping fish in a skimmer. At-least one academic quoted noted that problems arise when there is an overuse of the practice mentioned, not that bubbles kill fish. Still, there is no evidence that the academics support the unknown author's position and the Ph.D. are quoted from different works (possibly with a great deal of "liberty" aka lying and without citation in order to verify). It is an unknown claim by an unknown author without creditably as an authority, (possibly the copyright holder) who is associated with a business.



Thanks for warning me. I was browsing through the web and I thought it pertained to my situation. It was not my intention to bring something irrelevant.

Are there any links proving that microbubbles are NOT dangerous or beneficial?
I suppose the added O2 helps maintain pH but wouldn't adequate circulation help?
Please help me find out so I don't loose fish in the future.

I will test for voltage.
Perhaps the beneficial bacteria died somehow and ammonia and/or nitrate spiked. Perhaps microbubbles are normally harmless but with excess ammonia and nitrate it gets stuck to the bubble. i.e. the nitrate.ammonia attach to the bubble and gets in the fish's gill
(All theory only)

I will test nitrate and ammonia as well.

[LifeAquatic]

No way micro bubbles killed your fish. Hope you find whatever did before any others expire. Good luck.

[mak3mydae]

After rereading the post, the only thing I can say is WOW:eek2:
Some people here (Not all) seem pretty rude and unprofessional.
It was not my intention to spam.
I lost an expensive fish and I didn't want it happening to others so I though it was important to let others know of my experience.


I'm probably going to sound like one of those people now, but its just a forum. The people who do sound rude may sound rude, but they're trying to rule out the possibilities, in this case, micro bubbles. They're trying to help you perhaps not look at just micro bubles as the root cause of the death, and perhaps allow you to look at other possibilities so you can avoid another death. Saying that you're trolling was rather rude IMO, but its the poster's oppinion. Sorry if this offended you.

[Scott-CapeCoral]

You need to check for stray voltage man. Some tank inhabitants tolerate it more than others. That could be why it seems a few of your fish are being affected.
You said it started when you added the skimmer. Maybe a faulty seal in the pump.

[NarakuAulonocar]

You need to check for stray voltage man. Some tank inhabitants tolerate it more than others. That could be why it seems a few of your fish are being affected.
You said it started when you added the skimmer. Maybe a faulty seal in the pump.

Thanks I plan to but I'm currently preparing for some interviews
so I'm going skimmer less until I come back and buy a voltmeter

[graveyardworm]

How much micro-bubbles are we talking about in your tank? The article seems to cite extreme cases where the microbubbles make the water appear milky.

Possibly there was a contaminant in the skimmer? Any other fish or livestock additions recently? Anything else you started doing differently?

[maynardjames]

i had same skimmer . no way to stop micro bubbles if using as hang on back skimmer that i could find. bubble trap that comes with skimmer does a little, but clogs very fast. worst skimmer i ever had. when i was starting out & learning here on rc, i asked micro bubble questions several times. all replys were only thing micro bubbles do is make tank cloudy looking.i had tanks in past full of them for weeks at a time & never had any fish or invert deaths. post on reef chem forum here on rc. if anyone knows if micro bubbles could be your problem, the guys that answer questions there know what they are talking about & can back it up with science

[maynardjames]

and welcome to reef central:)