What's happening Here?

[phoenix001]

First, let me give a little background. My tank is a 90 gallon SPS tank. Several weeks ago, I had a mishap take place with my CA reactor and my Kh dropped to 6.5 for a while and I didn't know anythign was happening until some of my prized SPS started declining. I identified the problem and fixed it, but it was too late. On top of that, I allowed my TDS to rise to a 9 or 10 and before I noticed that, I had done several water changes. I then fixed the TDS problem. for a few weeks now, my Kh has been stable around 8.5-9 and I've conducted several water changes with 0 TDS. I've also replaced my 1 year old 250W 20K radiums and my VHO actinics. Finally, I added a BRS Reactor and have started running GFO as of 2 day's ago. I'm sure there are other details, but because of the combo of the above, my SPS started developing algae on the tips and I can't seem to get rid of it. There are small bubbles on most of my SPS. Take a look at the pics. Phosphates on a Salifert test are very faint.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=1630&pictureid=10492
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=1630&pictureid=10491

Sorry for the poor picture quality. Anyway, just wondering if there is anything else I can do. I will tell you that I sent a water sample to AWT and they said my PO4 was GOOD @ 0.11 - is that good? they also said my DKH was LOW at 6.11 - I just tested it with my Elos test and its 8.5. They also said I have high Copper @ 0.15 - this is troubling to me, but I have no idea how copper could get into my tank. Finally they said my Mg level is 2500 (yes 2500) which is just crazy. Anyway, any suggestions?

Thanks

[bertoni]

Phosphate at 0.11 is very high, if that number is accurate. Do you have your own test kit? I don't trust their numbers, generally. I might add some fresh GFO. The media can be depleted quickly if the tank is high in phosphate.

I'd run a PolyFilter if I was worried about copper. It'll remove the copper and turn blue. A lot of fresh carbon will help with a lot of toxins, too.

Has any magnesium been dosed into the system? It'd take a huge amount to raise the level that high.

Alkalinity test kits have been a thorn in the side of a lot of us. I'd get a second test kit and check it.

I can't tell what the bubbles are, but oxygen is my first guess. Is there a microbial film on the corals? There might be a lot of photosynthesis occurring for some reason.

If you're sure the water source is clean, some water changes might help a fair amount. I might do a few 20% changes, if the corals are declining.

[phoenix001]

I thought that Phosphate # was high - Interesting that AWT said 0.11 was good. I started running the GFO from a Bulk Reef Supply reactor this past Tuesday - this is after I sent in a water sample to AWT. I have a new Salifert Phosphate kit and the result on Tuesday before I started the GFO was very hard to tell - I don't think it was a 0 reading, so I assumed it was the next color up. I will test again in a few. Do you think I should already replenish the GFO?

As far as Mg is concerned, interesting that you should ask as AWT told me my Mg is 2500!! A few weeks back, I had a problem with my CA Reactor - basically I ruined the media, so I replaced it and at the same time, I added a tablespoon of Zeo mag per the instructions - actually less than the instructions. could the Zeo Mag cause a 2500 reading? I use Tropic Marin Pro Reef @ 1.026. Unfortuantely my Elos mg kit is out. I'm going to ordr a new one today. I don't see a film on the corals, just algae on the tips and bubbles that get worse as the day goes on - assume that's due to photosynthesis. I will get a Polyfilter to check copper - this is very troubling to me.

[phoenix001]

I just tested Phosphates with a brand new Salifert kit and the reading is zero - the test water was absolutely clear. When I tested it this past Tuesday prior to starting up the GFO reactor, it wasn't quite as clear, so I assumed thew reading was 0.03 (I think that's the next one after 0), so I'm hoping the GFO is helping. I also tested Alkalinity with my Elos kit and the reading is 9.0DKH.

[chuckreef]

Very hard to see the pic.

What's happening?
---> I think the pic shows a coral that died - proably from a toxic substance in the high TDS water - and now Cyano bcteria is consuming the dead coral flesh and is producing O2 bubbles.

I doubt the 6.5 alk was a problem at all really.

By the time you hit breakthrough (TDS of 9), the resin had realesed a large amount of undesirable substances back into your water. Some of them were likely toxic (to corals).

[phoenix001]

Neither coral is dead although the coral in the first pic is in really bad shape. I do see some Cyano on my center overflow and on a few tips of my large birdnest. Since I corrected all of the aformentioned problems, the tank seems to be improving, I just hope its not too late. I have some SPS colonies that remain unaffected by any of the issues I caused.

[phoenix001]

I just had a thought regarding the possibility that copper has leached into my tank. If I allowed my TDS to creep up to a reading of 9, is it possible that the fitting I use to supply water to my RO/DI pictured below (I think its made out of copper) could leach copper into my tank?

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=1630&pictureid=10553

[bertoni]

With the TDS at 9, there could be a lot of problems with the water. Copper is possible.

[chuckreef]

The brass fitting is probably not a problem or the problem. There are palstic hose to JG fittings available though for a few bucks.

[phoenix001]

I went and picked up a couple polyfilters today. I put one on the overflow side of my sump between the skimmer and the first baffle. Is this a good spot? Also, how long will it take to turn blue (assuming I have copper in the tank)? I put it in about 3 hours ago - still looks white.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=1630&pictureid=10590
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=1630&pictureid=10591
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=1630&pictureid=10592

[bertoni]

I'd give it a few days, at least.

[tmz]

A few thoughts:

The calcium reactor mishap may have caused alkalinity swings which in my experience are sometimes followed by stn, particularly at the growth tips.While a dkh of 6.5 would not likely be a problem , bounces might.

Algae and/ or cyano bacteria often grow on dead spots such as burnt tips. It can take a coral months to regrow over these spots and nuisance organisms seem to like it there. Maybe the coral slime feeds them some. Cutting off some of the dead skeletal area can accelerate the process.

Very low PO4 (<.03ppm) will inhibit growth by green nusiance aglae to a point. 0.11 ppm PO4 is high in this regard but should not inhibit calcification , in my experience,nor cause stn.. Also note Salifert in it's PO4 test kit cites 0.10ppm as a critical high point with 0.25ppm as a level at which calcification will be inhibited.

I would personally remove the brass fitting.

Running polyfilter is a good idea but I wouldn't necessarily expect it to turn blue enough to notice unless copper levels were very high in which case your corals would be in much worse condition.Even minute amounts of copper from the fitting or elsewhere can do harm.

[phoenix001]

I feel like I'm doing everything I can to turn this situation around. My Alk has been stbale now for more than a month, I've fixed the TDS problem and I continue to do my weekly water changes with TMPR making sure the Alk matches the tank. I also run a bag of carbon in a high flow area of the sump and replace bi-weekly. I'm running the polyfilter, but I would tend to agree with you Tom in that if I had as high of copper levels as AWT stated, I would have bigger problems. I have a few SPS pieces that look as good as ever! One question on the GFO - should I be concerned about stripping the tank nutrients too quickly? Also how often should I replace the media - seems like most change it out monthly? I will remove the brass fitting.

[phoenix001]

BTW, is there a more reliable lab that can test my water, other than AWT?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Try

www.enclabs.com

[john90009]

im having the same problem- tds went to 007 some people have done water changes with tds over that and have successful reefs. it all depends on that that 00* is that is passing through everyones water source is different an have different chemicals in it. i did a waterchange with a new batch of reef crystals in a 75 gallon with a 110 gallon system. with a 12 gallon water change my alk went from 9.5 to 12 after a few hours of the waterchange, then 11.2 then down to 8.5 for some reason. I switched to tmpr which has an alk of 9 and super nice levels and half my corals are shot and not recovering. leads me to belive something else was in the water but wasnt copper- alot of stuff would be reacting bad, inverts fish pods corals. For me it seems like i need to start over- my healthy corals are burning there tips to and with 3 different test kits my alk is 9.5 to 10.2

[phoenix001]

Wow, that's expensive - I guess you get what you pay for :)

I may use them to check the copper at a minimum, but will wait and see what happens with the polyfilter. I did write to AWT regarding the 2500 Mg level measured on my sample, but haven't received a response as of yet.

[tmz]

I feel like I'm doing everything I can to turn this situation around. My Alk has been stbale now for more than a month, I've fixed the TDS problem and I continue to do my weekly water changes with TMPR making sure the Alk matches the tank. I also run a bag of carbon in a high flow area of the sump and replace bi-weekly. I'm running the polyfilter, but I would tend to agree with you Tom in that if I had as high of copper levels as AWT stated, I would have bigger problems. I have a few SPS pieces that look as good as ever! One question on the GFO - should I be concerned about stripping the tank nutrients too quickly? Also how often should I replace the media - seems like most change it out monthly? I will remove the brass fitting.

Sounds like you have it under control. It's very hard to say what casues stn in any system but in many cases stn events occur contemporaneously with alkalinity swings.

I'd go easy with the gfo ,monitor the PO4 drop and then add more if needed.Dropping the PO4 too quickly may drop alkalinity a little while enhancing calcification. There are reports of burnt tips from rapid drops.

.Personally in my system , I get good results in terms of nuisance algae limitation and coral health with test results( accuracy is always a question) showing .05ppm PO4( hannah colorimeter) with NO3 at around 2.5ppm(salifert test).

[phoenix001]

Something else I overlooked is the fact that my Coraline algae production completely haleted. I never gave it much thought as I prefer the cleaner look of the back glass, so was happy that it just went away. Now, since I've corrected my problems (at least I hope) and replaced my lighting, I'm starting to see some Coraline spots on the back glass. I guess that's a good thing :)

[tmz]

I don't get the 2500mag. It would take some massive dosing to get there. I'd retest this.
Good luck.

[chuckreef]

factor of two (2) error on the mag?

[phoenix001]

I've got a new Elos Mg kit coming in, but would agree that the 2500 is a big error.

[phoenix001]

Just an update. so I've been running GFO in a reactor since last Tuesday. I started notining algae growing on the sandbed. Phosphate still reads as 0 using the Salifert kit. Seems like the sandbed algae is getting worse. Polyfilter is starting to look brown but no blue that I can see - has only been in the sump since Saturday. I did a 15% water change yesterday. Could the sand algae be from the new bulbs - new Radiums and new VHO's? I replaced them all at the same time. I had the 250W Radiums before and they were a year old, so I replaced and I bought 2 new 110W VHO URI bulbs - 1 Super Actinic, the other one of the new 454nm URI bulbs. Also, the bubbles on my SPS and equipment is not subsiding - perhaps I need to be more patient.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=1630&pictureid=10727

[chuckreef]

Patience (and persitence on cleaning things up).

You did several water cahnges with the bad (High TDS) water and some of your coral flesh died and polluted the water in your system. It will take as many as those intial WCs plus a few more to reverse this. So say five or six WCs to reverse things.
For the GFO, if phosphate is in the system (not just in the water), cyano and algase usually start to decline noticeably around the third batch of GFO (my experience). So presuming you are cahnging the GFO weekly, you will notice considerable improvement in about three weeks.

[bertoni]

I agree that keeping up with water changes is important at this point. I'd also siphon out as much of the slime as is easy to get, to help export nutrients.

[phoenix001]

Thanks all. Regarding the GFO, for a 90 gallon, the instructions stated to use 1 tablespoon per 4 gallons of tank water, so I added approximately 2 cups of GFO. How often should I change it out? I also have a refugium and will pull out some of the macroalgae to export nutrients.

[chuckreef]

I advocate using about 150g per 100 gallons and changing it every few days until you see noticeable improvement in the algae (or cyano) problem you are trying to control/eradicate. Then you can leave it in for a week or so. Although some reefers don't like the aluminum based products becasue there is some possible damage to corals from the dusts from these products, I believe using these products for the first few batches followed by a switch to the GFO on the third or fourth batch helps to put the algae into a faster decline. (it turns pale/whitish in coloration).

***** I don't really have test data to back this up, just experience. ****

I think it has something to with rate of absorption rather than capacity of the media. With the Al based products I can get higher flow rates through the media, so I think it can drop the PO4 levels faster (even if (when) the PO4 level measures ND on the test kit). I beleive the rate of adsorption by the Al-based products is farily constant until it becomes expended.
For the GFO, I believe when it is first placed in the system it has a very high adsorption rate that is not PO4 level dependent. However after a day or two in the system, I think many of the active sites on the GFO become coated and it shifts (from an exponential adsorption rate) to a slower (e.g., first order (I.e., to a PO4 level dependent)) adsorption rate. At this lower adsorption rate while GFO is likely good for maintenance (I.e., running for a week or two or even up to month to counteract regular feedings in a clean system), I don't think its really good for rapidly dropping the levles in a polluted/ problematic algae system at this slower rate. So by changing it out for new media frequently, I think you can push the PO4 level lower in the system much faster.

I hope this info is helpful.

[phoenix001]

Replaced the GFO tonight. Another question. For my SPS that have algae on the tips, would it make sense to cut off the tips to eliminate the algae and encourage growth?

[Aquarist007]

I advocate using about 150g per 100 gallons and changing it every few days until you see noticeable improvement in the algae (or cyano) problem you are trying to control/eradicate. Then you can leave it in for a week or so. Although some reefers don't like the aluminum based products becasue there is some possible damage to corals from the dusts from these products, I believe using these products for the first few batches followed by a switch to the GFO on the third or fourth batch helps to put the algae into a faster decline. (it turns pale/whitish in coloration).

***** I don't really have test data to back this up, just experience. ****

I think it has something to with rate of absorption rather than capacity of the media. With the Al based products I can get higher flow rates through the media, so I think it can drop the PO4 levels faster (even if (when) the PO4 level measures ND on the test kit). I beleive the rate of adsorption by the Al-based products is farily constant until it becomes expended.
For the GFO, I believe when it is first placed in the system it has a very high adsorption rate that is not PO4 level dependent. However after a day or two in the system, I think many of the active sites on the GFO become coated and it shifts (from an exponential adsorption rate) to a slower (e.g., first order (I.e., to a PO4 level dependent)) adsorption rate. At this lower adsorption rate while GFO is likely good for maintenance (I.e., running for a week or two or even up to month to counteract regular feedings in a clean system), I don't think its really good for rapidly dropping the levles in a polluted/ problematic algae system at this slower rate. So by changing it out for new media frequently, I think you can push the PO4 level lower in the system much faster.

I hope this info is helpful.

Insightful post--thanks
I would be concerned with the cost of this at 25 dollars for 150 grams that could become quite expensive. I am wondering if a series of 30 per cent water changes along with changing the gfo less often would be more economical and still be as effective?

[tmz]

Replaced the GFO tonight. Another question. For my SPS that have algae on the tips, would it make sense to cut off the tips to eliminate the algae and encourage growth?

I've done it with success and I've also had them recover skeletal area from algae without snipping them.If there is a lot of naked skeleton I'd snip it. If it's just a small area,<1/8th inch or so, I might leave it alone. In either case it can take quite a long time for recovery.

[tmz]

Insightful post--thanks
I would be concerned with the cost of this at 25 dollars for 150 grams that could become quite expensive. I am wondering if a series of 30 per cent water changes along with changing the gfo less often would be more economical and still be as effective?

Scott,
The thread on regenerating gfo might be of interest in terms of saving some of the cost.

[phoenix001]

Some updates and something interesting. I received my Elos Mg kit today and took a readng. So, my Mg is 1500, which is interesting because AWT said my Mg was 2500, so I think this proves that they meant to put a 1 and not a 2. With that said, 1500 is high - is this a problem?

Also, I pulled out the Poly Filter and there is no blue on it at all - just brown. the filter has been in continuosly since last Saturday, so assuming its been in long enough to detect copper, can I assume I have none?

Tom

[bertoni]

Magnesium at 1500 ppm doesn't seem to cause trouble, so I wouldn't worry about it. I agree that the copper level in your tank likely is very low. :) I doubt it's a problem at this point.

[phoenix001]

Thanks Jonathan. Looks like I may need to redo the GFO - I might of messed it up when I replaced the first batch, but I can't seem to get a consistent tumbling of the media. the feed pump is a MJ 1200. My first batch I had to turn it way down to maintain a very slight tumbling. My guess is something is clogged somewhere and maybe the media has hardened. Any thoughts? I'm using the basic GFO from BRS - Wonder if I should get the HC?

[bertoni]

I don't know how to tune the flow on a reactor. Media often does bind together. I wouldn't worry very much.

[Aquarist007]

Scott,
The thread on regenerating gfo might be of interest in terms of saving some of the cost.

Can you post the link, Tom?

[tmz]

Here is tis Scott:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1734717