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burtonpj48
03/09/2010, 12:43 AM
Hello all, I have a question regarding the usage of copper. If your fish show no signs of itch do u still continue treatment of copper, in the qt tank. I have heard of itch comming back, while treatment. So is it better to treat with copper constantly until the life cycle of itch has taken its full course. I have read that copper is bad for the livers of fish, So i try not to use it unless its necessary. Or is hypo a better way to treat itch? thanks

Randy Holmes-Farley
03/09/2010, 05:46 AM
I never treat fish in any way unless I see a disease.

wooden_reefer
03/09/2010, 12:34 PM
I always QT fish against ich preventively for eight or more weeks of active and continuous treatment.

For far as ich is concerned, QT is not observation but active preventive treatment.

Ich is far too prevalent and serious to be a matter of mere observation.

Sometimes some fish need extra step of initial accilmation in QT before active treatment, which should be postphoned but not waived.

Michael
03/09/2010, 12:37 PM
I always QT fish against ich preventively for eight or more weeks of active and continuous treatment.

For far as ich is concerned, QT is not observation but active preventive treatment.

Ich is far too prevalent and serious to be a matter of mere observation.

Sometimes some fish need extra step of initial accilmation in QT before active treatment, which should be postphoned but not waived.

i think qt is a good idea, are you saying you treat all fish even healthy with copper in qt, or am i misreading the post.

wooden_reefer
03/09/2010, 01:13 PM
i think qt is a good idea, are you saying you treat all fish even healthy with copper in qt, or am i misreading the post.

Yes, a healthiest fish from a LFS is one that is lightly infested with ich and is phsiologically very fit and vigorous.

burtonpj48
03/09/2010, 06:50 PM
Ok, well im getting confused with what u are all saying. From what i read copper,does cause problems for liver of fishes. Im going to have to agree with randy on this one. There is no reason to treat itch if u dont see it. Less exposure to copper treatment the better.

bertoni
03/09/2010, 06:53 PM
I wouldn't use copper unless I saw signs of diseases, either. A freshwater dip might be worth considering, though, since it can reveal the presence of flukes and other parasites, and likely is a lot less stressful than copper.

wooden_reefer
03/09/2010, 06:54 PM
Ok, well im getting confused with what u are all saying. From what i read copper,does cause problems for liver of fishes. Im going to have to agree with randy on this one. There is no reason to treat itch if u dont see it. Less exposure to copper treatment the better.

Copper is suggested as an immulogical suppresser, but I have never had any problems.

There are cons and pros. Until you have suffered from ich enough, you may tend to agree to wait for ich to come to you.

I have and I don't.

I have not had a single case of ich in DT for well over 25 years.

Reefer2727
03/09/2010, 07:20 PM
Interesting thread. I have been contemplating treating all fish in my QT whether they look healthy or not. I recently had a small yellow tang that I treated with hypo even though it looked perfectly healthy upon arrival. Seems as though I put it through too much stress and ended up losing it.

I do like the idea of knowing for sure that the fish are clean but copper seems to be hard on the fish and hypo is a pain in the butt.

I have a blenny and two gobies coming next week. Not sure if I should just treat or monitor in QT.

Would a freshwater dip help at all?

burtonpj48
03/09/2010, 10:51 PM
I also have another question. With the nitrates constantly going up in a qt tank, Doing large water changes, on a regular basis to bring down nitrates, My question: Is it stressfull for fishes to undergo unstable nitate levels? WhIle treating fishes, I had to do a 100 % change from my main tank to my qt tank., because nitrates were so high.>

bertoni
03/09/2010, 11:00 PM
Nitrate under 300-400 ppm or so is unlikely to be a problem for fish.

burtonpj48
03/09/2010, 11:28 PM
I use the elos test kits, it ranges from 0, 1, 2.5, 5, 10, 25, for nitrates. Once the nitates go up to 10 i start a 50% change.

Michael
03/10/2010, 01:48 AM
no need to do a water change in a qt if nitrate is detected, ammonia is the real worry.

sowellj
03/10/2010, 08:05 AM
Yes, a healthiest fish from a LFS is one that is lightly infested with ich and is phsiologically very fit and vigorous.

I am not sure I am understanding this, or perhaps it is a typo. Are you really saying that the healthiest fish at the fish store are the specimens that have ich?

davidchmaus
03/10/2010, 08:27 AM
You know, I just finished researching this and my decision was to go ahead and treat with copper in the QT.

Here is why. Lets say I put a health fish in QT for 8 weeks. My QT tank is cycled and the water stays nice. That fish could have ich and I would never see it.

I transfer the fish to the display along with the ich. Now the ich may never be an issue but if the fish get weak down the road, bam...

So I left my main display without fish for 8 weeks. I am treating my first two since I started this practice, a fairy wrasse and a coral beauty. It has been a week and they are eating well..

We will see...

Matt850
03/10/2010, 10:18 AM
You could always try the third treatment which has always worked well for me, at least for smaller fish. I do 100% water changes on my QT tanks and take time acclimating them to the new tank carefully every 3 days. Use two smaller aquariums and switch them out every 3 days for 15 days, this cycles through the life cycle of ich a couple of times. Just make sure that the aquariums are bone dry when you switch it back to the active QT. Of course I only do this with obvious signs of ich, other diseases need different approaches and a lot of people will not like doing 100% changes.

wooden_reefer
03/10/2010, 11:50 AM
I am not sure I am understanding this, or perhaps it is a typo. Are you really saying that the healthiest fish at the fish store are the specimens that have ich?

All fish in LFS are lightly infested with ich.

At least the percentage is so high that this is a wise presumption.

wooden_reefer
03/10/2010, 12:01 PM
I am interested to know why does one observe for ich on new fish from LFS.

What are you observing and for how long do you observe?

Ich can be on the gills, and whether there are a few small white dots or exactly none on all the outside skin and fin of the fish is not easy to tell. Lighting is a factor as well.

There is always a matter of chance for heavy enough overt ich infestation or not. There is always a good chance that the dilution effective even in a tank can be effective or nearly effective for ich to not show for a length of time.

I would say that if a fish very susceptible to ich has been in a small tank for six months and there has been no treatment and no ich infestation heavy enough to be detected, the chance of ich having died out or never existed starts to be significant.

Conclusion after just a few weeks of observation is basically a joke.

Let's say that the chance of a fish carrying ich is 30% (70-95% is more likely), can you take the chance of putting it in DT after just two months of observation in QT. Definitely no for me. The chance of a calamity in a tank, especially a reef tank, is far too great.

Reefer2727
03/10/2010, 12:02 PM
Wooden Reefer,

Could you explain what you do when you get a new addition. Just go through your QT process and the copper treatment.

Thanks

wooden_reefer
03/10/2010, 12:10 PM
Yes, a healthiest fish from a LFS is one that is lightly infested with ich and is phsiologically very fit and vigorous.

Not a typo.

You cannot expect any fish in an LFS to be free of ich.

Ich is a matter of chance. Fish very strong and can be expected to live for ten or more years under good care can have ich in a LFS.

The relation between immunity, vigor, and ich infestation is weak.

Strong fish get ich.

Ich is basically a parasitic relationship stable in the ocean going wild in captivity, in the confinement of a tank. All other considerations are quite secondary and academic.

wooden_reefer
03/10/2010, 12:19 PM
At least one book written by an MD, Ed Kingsford (sp?) completely support my procedure.

All wild caught fish regardless of overt vigor and ich manifestation have to be "cleansed", in his word.

Many authors say it is "zealous". I think they have no idea what they are talking about.

When you see ich in a DT, it is too late to escape from an ordeal.

wooden_reefer
03/10/2010, 12:31 PM
Wooden Reefer,

Could you explain what you do when you get a new addition. Just go through your QT process and the copper treatment.

Thanks

I have done so many times.

There are three major considerations, I think.

1. Ich treatment has to be long in duration as disease treatments go. At least eight weeks of active and continuous treatment without significant lapses, 10-12 weeks is better still. Ich is an obligatory parasite. Its has to go thru its lifecycle. For this and other basic reasons, you must have enough nitrification in a QT. You must cycle the medium intended for the QT in advance very well.

2. In general, if there is no concurrent bacterial infection, you do not need to use an antibiotic that affects nitrification. So, if there is no bacterial infection, you will not have problem ridding the QT water of ammonia and so eradicating ich. You do not need to do more WC in QT than in DT. Copper does not affect nitrification much. So, and because bacterial infections per se kill, I always use UV properly in QT whenever I can.

3. Personally, I do not use any cheleted copper. I take advantage of the fact that straight copper levels of 0.15 to 0.4 ppm metallic Cu can be effective. I pulse copper typically every 60-72 hours and only test for cu every three or four times I add cu. I use a calacareous material as the medium of filtration. I find the change in Cu level periodic and predictable enough. You may choose to maintain a constant level of copper, cheleted or not. This I think is a choice. Both are valid, in my opinion.

sowellj
03/10/2010, 12:50 PM
Not a typo.

You cannot expect any fish in an LFS to be free of ich.

Ich is a matter of chance. Fish very strong and can be expected to live for ten or more years under good care can have ich in a LFS.

The relation between immunity, vigor, and ich infestation is weak.

Strong fish get ich.

Ich is basically a parasitic relationship stable in the ocean going wild in captivity, in the confinement of a tank. All other considerations are quite secondary and academic.

I agree that it is not possible to know for certain whether or not a fish has or will/acqure ich at a fish store. They way your earlier statement read, it made it sound as if you would actually choose a fish that is clearly displaying the signs, over one that is not.

wooden_reefer
03/10/2010, 12:52 PM
I also have another question. With the nitrates constantly going up in a qt tank, Doing large water changes, on a regular basis to bring down nitrates, My question: Is it stressfull for fishes to undergo unstable nitate levels? WhIle treating fishes, I had to do a 100 % change from my main tank to my qt tank., because nitrates were so high.>

Nitrate is basically harmless to fish except at very high levels.

Even a long QT session of 10-12 weeks will not result in high enogh nitrate to be a concern to fish.

Nitrate is bad for a DT for more indirect and subtle reasons.

You do not need to be concerned about nitrate in a QT for fish, in general.

Against ich, you do not need to do WC in QT more often than in DT if you had cycled the medium for QT very well in advance and you do not have any concurrent bacterial infection that requires the use of an antibiotic that affects nitrification.

wooden_reefer
03/10/2010, 12:57 PM
I agree that it is not possible to know for certain whether or not a fish has or will/acqure ich at a fish store. They way your earlier statement read, it made it sound as if you would actually choose a fish that is clearly displaying the signs, over one that is not.

I actually get excited when I see some ich in a LFS. This is how I get a bargain. I discreetly ask to buy an ich infested fish as is at deep discount. Some LFS owners have some sense of gulit and will let go a lightly ich infested fish at cost.

Light infestation is just that, barely seen or barely unseen.

All fish from LFS go thru the same QT procedure, no difference.

Michael
03/10/2010, 12:57 PM
hmmm, although very interesting, im not sure id prefer to treat a healthy fish with copper, im my own man here, but must say im leaning towards randys view, i dont disagree with wooden, but dont suggest his way is the right way, i suppose this is a debateable subject, good reading and certainely different views here, im wondering if copper treatment is needed on ahealthy specimen? perhaps so, perhaps not.

wooden_reefer
03/10/2010, 01:01 PM
hmmm, although very interesting, im not sure id prefer to treat a healthy fish with copper, im my own man here, but must say im leaning towards randys view, i dont disagree with wooden, but dont suggest his way is the right way, i suppose this is a debateable subject, good reading and certainely different views here, im wondering if copper treatment is needed on ahealthy specimen? perhaps so, perhaps not.

What is a healthy specimen in an LFS? When you use the word "healthy", you have to think precisely what does it mean.

I think you are unwilling to understand what ich is.

It is basically an itch in the ocean that turns into a killer in the confinement of a tank.

Michael
03/10/2010, 01:05 PM
i havent seen itch for years, yet i dont treat with copper, i understand what itch is, i also get your point, doesnt mean your right to treat all fish with copper, i wonder how many successful reefers treat all their new fish with copper in qt for 8-12 weeks?

sowellj
03/10/2010, 01:20 PM
I actually get excited when I see some ich in a LFS. This is how I get a bargain. I discreetly ask to buy an ich infested fish as is at deep discount. Some LFS owners have some sense of gulit and will let go a lightly ich infested fish at cost.

Light infestation is just that, barely seen or barely unseen.

All fish from LFS go thru the same QT procedure, no difference.

While an interesting approach, I am not sure it would be wise to advocate for this, especially in the beginner forum.

wooden_reefer
03/10/2010, 01:43 PM
While an interesting approach, I am not sure it would be wise to advocate for this, especially in the beginner forum.

It would be more unwise to shun a LFS that has an occasional ich infestation.

Even a newbie should know what the major role of an LFS is; it is to obtain and secure good sources of livestock that are vigorous. That includes less exposure to ammonia and other bad chemical elements in transit water, better nutrition in transit, and better transit. It includes a good method of capture.

The role of an LFS cannot be to eradicate ich. It would be too expensive to do so. I don't want to see rigorous QT in LFS be mandatory as I don't want to see much higher prices.

Even a newbie should know that strong fish can get heavy ich infestation, as heavy ich infestation is more a matter of chance of wildly varying concentration of the pathogen in the water.

sowellj
03/10/2010, 02:26 PM
It would be more unwise to shun a LFS that has an occasional ich infestation.

Even a newbie should know what the major role of an LFS is; it is to obtain and secure good sources of livestock that are vigorous. That includes less exposure to ammonia and other bad chemical elements in transit water, better nutrition in transit, and better transit. It includes a good method of capture.

The role of an LFS cannot be to eradicate ich. It would be too expensive to do so. I don't want to see rigorous QT in LFS be mandatory as I don't want to see much higher prices.

Even a newbie should know that strong fish can get heavy ich infestation, as heavy ich infestation is more a matter of chance of wildly varying concentration of the pathogen in the water.

fine, this does not mean that is should be sought out. Also, this is getting way off topic so lets try and bring it back to the OP.

wooden_reefer
03/10/2010, 02:32 PM
fine, this does not mean that is should be sought out.

I don't really seek out fish with seen light ich, but I don't shun it the slightist bit. I welcome the chance to save money.

A newbie is a thinking person and may not want to do exactly the same as I do.

I just state what I do and perhaps to highlight what ich really is.

It is a killer if caught too late; a universal itch in the ocean that has to be eradicated in the confinement of a tank.

A healthy captured fish is a fish with light ich infestation that is vigorous as dictated by the prevalent state of host-parasite balance in the ocean.

wooden_reefer
03/10/2010, 02:56 PM
Think about what "healthy" means.

Think about what criteria to use to say "it is now safe to add this fish into the DT"

Think about what observation means. What parts of a fish can you see and not see?

How long do you have to observe based on the knowledge of the lifecycle of ich?

All the answers are there.

Reefer2727
03/10/2010, 04:48 PM
Wooden,

Is 12 weeks of copper treatment not overkill on a potentially healthy fish? The copper medication I have calls for 3 weeks.

wooden_reefer
03/10/2010, 05:09 PM
Wooden,

Is 12 weeks of copper treatment not overkill on a potentially healthy fish? The copper medication I have calls for 3 weeks.

No, it is needed. Not overkill at all.

Potentially healthy, what does it mean? it means potentially a calamity for the DT.

A fish is in the ocean with one white spot of ich now; it is now healthy in the ocean?

If you capture this fish and put it in the confinement of a tank, is it still healthy now and for the next 10 days? 50 days in the same tank?

What is healthy depends on the how you have altered the environment, from the dilution of the ocean to the confinement of the tank.

8 or more weeks in the QT for ALL fish from commercial sources to eradicate ich. One slip and the situation can be as bad as not having done any QT for any fish at all.

3 weeks is barely one lifecycle of the ich organism. No treatment is instantaneous. To have a very high probability to break the cycle, to kill the very last ich organism in the system, it is necessary to have gone thru several lifecycles of ich. 3 weeks is too risky; six weeks is a possiblity that I don't have strong opinion on, but I go a min of eight weeks, often 10-12 if by unintended delays.

If you had prepared the QT well, and you know of the importance, you would not be constantly lamenting the passing weeks of almost no work, or as little work as in the DT for the fish in QT. 8-12 weeks, not a big deal.

Reefer2727
03/10/2010, 08:14 PM
So if I am using Cupramine, the instructions say to leave it at 0.5 ppm copper for 14 days. You are suggesting 56 days at 0.5 ppm? (8 weeks).

Chris27
03/10/2010, 09:06 PM
So if I am using Cupramine, the instructions say to leave it at 0.5 ppm copper for 14 days. You are suggesting 56 days at 0.5 ppm? (8 weeks).

If you are absolutely certain that you have eradicated the parasite from the display tank, then 5-6 weeks in a bare bottomed, properly dosed QT should be sufficient. The key there is to stay on top of everything, for example, if you dose copper too low, the parasite may survive, if the temp is low enough the parasite could incubate for 4-5 weeks vice a few days in higher temps. There are many variables, and a recommendation of 8-12 weeks is enough time to ensure the variables don't contribute to you inadvertently introducing the parasite to a nice healthy display tank....

Reefer2727
03/10/2010, 09:50 PM
Are there certain fish that cant handle copper treatment?

Chris27
03/11/2010, 08:20 AM
Are there certain fish that cant handle copper treatment?

Sharks, rays, puffers and lionfish are sometimes difficult to treat with copper. For those fish, I will use chelated copper, it's not as effective on the parasite as ionic copper, but it's better then nothing.

Reefer2727
03/11/2010, 09:26 AM
Blennys and Gobies ok with copper?

wooden_reefer
03/11/2010, 12:59 PM
Wrt ich, what can you observe?

You can tell qualitatively if a fish is at risk of dying soon. You can put it in categories, light, moderate, or critical.

You can't open the gills.

Ich infestation is described as a white dot the size of a period (.). Do you think it gets to be this size the first hour ich anchor onto the fish? No. It is very small the moment it anchors onto a fish; it grows to the size of a period.

What can you tell by observing? You CANNOT tell if ich is present or absent by observing.

You are satisfied that there is a very high chance of ridding ich from a fish by a process of QT. Eight weeks or more of active and continuous treatment.

sowellj
03/11/2010, 03:49 PM
12 weeks of copper treatment is not needed. I understand that this is they way you may do it and that is great. However, I think you need to qualify that this is not the ONLY way to approach things.

wooden_reefer
03/11/2010, 03:58 PM
However, I think you need to qualify that this is not the ONLY way to approach things.

Actually, I aim for eight weeks but frequently do 12 weeks unintendedly. Are you saying that seven weeks is enough? What duration are you suggesting as enough?

Do you think copper or hypo will kill ich instantaneously?

If not, do you think copper is effective when ich is already on a fish?


Do you think then that there is a good chance that a few ich organisms can anchor on a fish even in the presence of copper or in hypo?

Why would you think that a treatment duration of just one lifecycle is enough? Or what duration do you have in mind? I have said that I don't necessarily object to six weeks.

Why are you so eager to that a fish out of QT? What motivates you to keep a QT short?

sowellj
03/11/2010, 04:02 PM
Relax .... breath deeply

I am only saying that there is more than one approach to things ... that is it.

wooden_reefer
03/11/2010, 04:06 PM
Relax .... breath deeply

I am only saying that there is more than one approach to things ... that is it.

Materially, practically, there is only one approach; that is to eradicate.

If you say active treatment of only six weeks is good enough, I won't necessarily object.

You cannot confidently eradicate ich with only three weeks of treatment.

bertoni
03/11/2010, 04:48 PM
Okay, this thread seems to be growing far beyond the original issue.