Phosphates off the chart!

[Tryx]

I just set up my first tank in December and began my downward spiral in this hobby. I had a really bad cyano problem where I could almost watch my sand turn brown. I cut down on feeding and lights, but it still didn't change anything. I finally got a phosphate test kit (API) and found that my PO4 was litterally off the chart.
I normally do a 25% WC every week and up'd that to 25% every 3 days. Still no change. I decided to add some cheato so see if it would help with the PO4 levels, but nothing happend after a week.
I then built a small sump to put the cheato and a bag of phosguard in. The cyano pretty much disappeared within 3 days, but after a week of running the phosguard, my PO4 levels were still off the chart. I changed the media out and waited another week with WC twice a week and still nothing changes.
What am I missing? Not sure what other info would be important but here are my params:

NH3/4: 0.0ppm
NO2: 0.0ppm
NO3: somewhere between 5.0 and 10ppm
pH: 7.9 <--is this a problem?
Ca: 420ppm
dKH: 11
temp: 78-81F

Tank info:
36g with a SMALL(4g) sump
55w x2 PC lights

Livestock:
2 damsels
firefish
pseudochromis
LM blenny
mushrooms
xenia

Thanks for any advice.

[EdSnyder]

Get a phosban reactor, it is the best thing you can do for this. Just go slow, removing the phosphate to quickly can cause problems. The reactor will definetly get rid of phospate.

[myaerica]

What kind of water are you useing rodi or tap?

[Tryx]

I dont really have room in the tiny sump for a reactor. The best I have is a media bag. Is phosban any better than phosguard?

I use premixed water from my LFS. Its labeled as Catalina water with RODI. I've tested that water before adding to my tank and PO4 is barely detectable on my test kit. not 0.0 but somewhere between 0.0 and 0.1

[Percula9]

How can it be Catalina water with R/O/DI. Catalina water is already natural seawater. So what you said doesn't make sense. Which LFS are you talking about? Is it the one on Beach Blvd towards PCH. I forget the name of the place. Buy a good salt and mix your own seawater. I don't trust Catalina water , it is high in heavy metals. If the PO4 is .1 then its high.

[Tryx]

As far as I know, thats what the sign says. It doesn't really make sense to me either. And yes, its Seaside on Beach.
If 0.1ppm is high then how will I know if I get my phosphates down below that? My test kit shows 0.0 then 0.25 then 0.5 and so on.

[JimmyK]

The tank is still fairly new roughly 3 months about right? I have been through many algae problems. I would try mixing your own water (as said above) and give your tank some time. Also, how much live rock you have in the tank? It could be leaching phosphates as well. If at all possible use a reactor for your media, it is much more effective than a bag. Goodluck!

[nano427]

I used the catalina water from seaside for a long time without any problems, I doubt thats your issue. Heres a few things you might think think about. Also sorry if these seem super basic, just dont know your experience level so Im gonna throw out ideas that might help. A phosban reactor, they can be installed hang on back. Less water changes, 20% week max. I think maybe when you change the water its kicking up the sandbed sending detrius into the water. So you think the clean water is helping but maybe really hurting. What and how much do you feed? Flake food = phosphate. Cut back feedings to maybe every other day, and feed light. What do you top off with? If you're not sure what your buying, ask. They guys at seaside are really cool and will answer your questions. Also does your cheato grow?

[Percula9]

To get a reading on PO4 that's more sensitive you will need a Hanna Photometer. I still would make my own water. There is another LFS on Brookhurst and Adams Ave where Stater Brothers is. I can't remember the name.

[Tryx]

I have about 30-35 pounds of LR. I dont have space or money for a reactor, but I guess I could look into a DIY one. I've actually stopped the biweekly WC the last 2 weeks and went back to 25% every week since I couldnt afford buying that much water. I'll continue that WC schedule. I top off with RO/DI that I have tested. My cheato doesn't grow as fast as some people on here say, but it is growing. Its getting dense and I might have to prune it back a little. It's only been in there for about a month.

Then comes to what I suspect is the cause of the issue: my food.
I feed Hikari frozen mysis, brine, and spirulina brine. I feed a quarter cube twice a day. Is that too much? Also, I've seen threads that talk about rinsing frozen food. some say do it, others say it doesn't matter. What should I do?

[Znut Reefer]

I would rinse all frozen food with RODI water. Frozen foods contain a lot of P04.

[Archreefer]

I am having the same problem, and never thought of the frozen food having a lot of PO4. Thanks for that piece of info.

[Tryx]

If I were to rinse the frozen food, wouldn't I need to feed more? I would guess that a lot of the tiny particles would wash away if I rinse. Is there a good way to rinse while keeping lost food at a minimum?
Is there a different food I could feed instead of frozen? any good pelets? are they full of phosphates?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

All foods contain substantial phosphate, but unless they have added phosphate (like some fresh, canned and frozen seafoods for people do), I am not certain that any particular type of food has more phosphate relative to other nutrients like protein than do other types.

Phosphate is an integral part of many tissues, not just a preservative. It is a part of proteins, phospholipids, DNA, RNA, etc. There is no getting around that. So anything that contains fish, seaweed, clams, etc is going to contain phosphorous. And the higher the protein, the higher the phosphorous is going to be, typically.

Fresh, canned and frozen seafood from the grocery store does often have phosphate added to retain moisture in the food. So be careful of that.

You might want to avoid anything with bones in it as they are very high in phosphorus. So fish meal as an ingredient might be something to avoid.


Ron Shimek analyzes some foods here;

http://web.archive.org/web/20010720071031/http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish/data/foods.asp

From it I calculated the phosphorus to protein ratio, and get:


Formula Two...........................176
Formula One.............................69
Frozen Brine Shrimp................232
Frozen Plankton/Krill...............182
Golden Pearls..........................273
Lancefish.................................244
Nori..........................................221
Plankton Gold Flakes...............169
Prime Reef.................................69
Saltwater Staple......................500
Silversides...............................952
Tahitian Blend..........................318

[Percula9]

I take the frozen cube and defrost in some tank water. Then I pour it thru a fish net. I then turn the net inside out and pour some new tank water thru the net to capture the food.

[redfishsc]

I dont really have room in the tiny sump for a reactor. The best I have is a media bag. Is phosban any better than phosguard?

I use premixed water from my LFS. Its labeled as Catalina water with RODI. I've tested that water before adding to my tank and PO4 is barely detectable on my test kit. not 0.0 but somewhere between 0.0 and 0.1

The Bulk Reef Supply brand GFO reactor is an external reactor at a very good price. Requires a Maxijet 900 or 1200 pump to run, and has a little valve on it for flow adjustment.


If you have a good skimmer, you can also consider dosing vodka or vinegar to lower phosphate. Start slow, move slow, expect slow results. Only very, very bad things will happen quickly in this situation, lol.

[Tryx]

i guess i can start rinsing my food out. It looks like Ill have to stick with the media in a bag for now since I cant afford a reactor. I'll look into a DIY one since I have plenty of flow from my return pump being diverted back into the sump.

[Tryx]

dosing probably isn't an option for me since I only have a CPR bakpak. =(

[wsj777]

wow i never thought of the frozen food! I have a phosban reactor and still cant get the phosphates below .1-.2. ty for the tip

[tmz]

When PO4 is high the gfo( granulated ferric oxide)whichever brand may exhaust in a day. If it has built up in the rock or substrate or is sourced from feeding it may rise back up quickly.

Thawing/rinsing frozen food is done to remove the packing water which may be high in phosphate and nitrogen. More feeding would not be required when food pre thawed and rinsed.

I use a hanah cloimeter for low range PO4 readings. The salifert test kit is ok as a less costly way to do it at least down to 0.10ppm.

[Tryx]

so does this mean I'll have to continue buying phosguard and chaning it out daily until the phosphates go down? how exactly do I know when its all used up?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I'd personally recommend GFO over PhosGuard, as the Phosguard has the potential to irritate corals with released aluminum, but if you do not see that effect, you may not need to worry about it.

[Tryx]

all I have right now are shrooms and a frag of xenia. They are happy and multiplying like crazy. I'm guessing they like less-than-perfect water.

[HighlandReefer]

Xenia do seem to like "dirty water", there have been threads where hobbyists have used xenia to export nitrate and phosphate. :D

[jim t]

your phosguard should last 3-4 weeks. What type of sand did you use?
Some LFS sell silica sand/playsand for tanks but they will cause algea.
Just a thought

[Tryx]

i bought the sand off another member here. it is pretty large and I'm worried that its actually fine crushed coral. I know there are pH and calcium issues with CC, but would that also cause a phosphate issue?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

FWIW, I do not think there is any calcium and not likely any substantial pH issue related to crushed coral, but it can collect a lot of detritus which can degrade and release nutrients (assuming that detritus is otherwise removed somehow when you do not use crushed coral).

[tmz]

How long phospguard of gfo lasts depends upon how much phosphate is in the water being treated. The only way to know when it's exhausted is via testing the treated water for PO4.

[xr4kw]

I'll look into a DIY one since I have plenty of flow from my return pump being diverted back into the sump.

This is a nice DIY reactor. I use one, works great...

http://www.greyseasaquatics.com/ssc/do/product/10/MR5-KIT

[Tryx]

thats a nice kit, but I could probably just get a BRS reactor for that price.

[Tryx]

How long phospguard of gfo lasts depends upon how much phosphate is in the water being treated. The only way to know when it's exhausted is via testing the treated water for PO4.


This would be a little tough for me since my initial readings are off the chart. I would never see the phosphate level start to increase again since it never dipped into readable levels.

On a side note: how much damage am I doing by having such high phosphates? The highest level my API test reads is 10pmm and I am well over that. Is it possible to ever recover? Its 3 months into a cycled tank and all I have is green hair algae and cyano. No coraline. The seed rock that I used bleached out.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

>10 ppm phosphate sounds like a possible test error.

What do you get with that kit testing new salt water?

[Tryx]

^^ thats exactly what I thought the first time. I tested it over and over using different mixing methods and times. Followed the directions to a T. I tested my new water (from LFS) and it tested 0. It might not be ZERO.ZERO, but the color is pretty darn close to 0 on the chart. Definitely not .25 which is the next step. Should I take some water and have the LFS test it? It just sounds wierd that the rest of my params are somewhere in the normal range, yet my PO4 is rediculous!
BTW: Is it harmful to the tank?

[Tryx]

so over a week later and no change. I've done 2 water changes since the last post. All frozen food has been thawed/rinsed with RO/DI before feeding. I don't understand how I can have such high phosphates and nothing helps. Now the hair algae is going crazy. I keep yanking it out and it keeps growing. I'm ready to get a seahare but I'd like to get to the cause of the issue.

[kcsalt]

What is your light schedule? Don't know if it matters with PC's but how old are the bulbs?

[SPStoner]

All foods contain substantial phosphate, but unless they have added phosphate (like some fresh, canned and frozen seafoods for people do), I am not certain that any particular type of food has more phosphate relative to other nutrients like protein than do other types.

Phosphate is an integral part of many tissues, not just a preservative. It is a part of proteins, phospholipids, DNA, RNA, etc. There is no getting around that. So anything that contains fish, seaweed, clams, etc is going to contain phosphorous. And the higher the protein, the higher the phosphorous is going to be, typically.

Fresh, canned and frozen seafood from the grocery store does often have phosphate added to retain moisture in the food. So be careful of that.

You might want to avoid anything with bones in it as they are very high in phosphorus. So fish meal as an ingredient might be something to avoid.


Ron Shimek analyzes some foods here;

http://web.archive.org/web/20010720071031/http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish/data/foods.asp

From it I calculated the phosphorus to protein ratio, and get:


Formula Two...........................176
Formula One.............................69
Frozen Brine Shrimp................232
Frozen Plankton/Krill...............182
Golden Pearls..........................273
Lancefish.................................244
Nori..........................................221
Plankton Gold Flakes...............169
Prime Reef.................................69
Saltwater Staple......................500
Silversides...............................952
Tahitian Blend..........................318

Randy- I agree with almost all of this except the fish meal part, to an extent. There are various grades of fish meal, just as there are various grades of steak, lobster, etc. the better fish meals do not grind up whole fish, bones, scales, etc, but only use portions of the fish which are edible by humans, i.e the filets. Some, however, do in fact grind up the whole fish. i have even seen some flake food companies using this as a selling point, claiming they use the whole fish.
As you mention, phosphorous is really difficult to avoid if you are feeding your fish, and is, in fact, necessary for fish growth. they key is to deliver it in a food that is highly digestible, so you do not have undigested matter contributing to the organic phosphate levels in the aquarium. This is where some of your better fish food companies do much of their research. How to deliver the required nutrients in a manner in which they can be 100% digested, or as close to this as possible. I guess my point is, at least for prepared diets, just reading the phosphorous content of a food does not tell the entire story.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Should I take some water and have the LFS test it? It just sounds wierd that the rest of my params are somewhere in the normal range, yet my PO4 is rediculous!

That's a fine plan. I expect >10 ppm is a testing or interpretation error.


There are various grades of fish meal, just as there are various grades of steak, lobster, etc. the better fish meals do not grind up whole fish, bones, scales, etc, but only use portions of the fish which are edible by humans, i.e the filets. Some, however, do in fact grind up the whole fish.

Thanks for the info. :)

[Tryx]

What is your light schedule? Don't know if it matters with PC's but how old are the bulbs?

the PCs are about 3 months old. I can see the bulbs causing the algae issue, but it shouldn't be causing the PO4 to be >10ppm. anywhere else the phosphate can be coming from?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Fish food is the usual cause, but I've never heard of phosphate above 1 ppm, so above 10 ppm seems almost certainly error.

I discuss phosphate, including sources, here:

Phosphate and the Reef Aquarium
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-09/rhf/index.php