Newbies wanting yes or no answers

[wooden_reefer]

It is often true that a newbie thinks of a yes or no answer to a question, but often it is not helpful to give it. First, I am not sure if the expectation of a yes or no answer is rooted from the correct understanding of the subject (or even the boundary of the subject), and also in general this does not promote understanding and progress.

Should I run my skimmer when I cycle? Yes or no.

I then have to ask if “running the skimmer” includes dumping the frothing skimmate, or do you mean returning it to the cycling water.

If the question is if I should break in the skimmer as soon as possible, there is one set of answers.

What is the likely real question here, if the newbie knows the functionality and purpose of a protein skimmer? It is that do I have to limited decay during cycling? Immediately, do I have to limit the ammonia level during cycling?

A heated debate is due to happen on this issue. The prevalent method of cycling with recently collect LR will be at the center stage. Someone knowledgeable will insist on clarification.

[tahoe61]

I believe that if you run a skimmer during a cycle you are removing biological matter that would probably help in initiating the cycle.

The argument about it breaking in seems moot, because it is going to get broken in no matter what. So what if it takes a couple more days.

It would be interesting to start two tanks with the same amount of LR and sand from the same source, and type of filtration. Let one run with a skimmer and one without and see what difference there is in the cycle times. My guess is the one without the skimmer would cycle quicker.

But as you guessed the debate will begin.

[wooden_reefer]

I believe that if you run a skimmer during a cycle you are removing biological matter that would probably help in initiating the cycle.

The argument about it breaking in seems moot, because it is going to get broken in no matter what. So what if it takes a couple more days.

It would be interesting to start two tanks with the same amount of LR and sand from the same source, and type of filtration. Let one run with a skimmer and one without and see what difference there is in the cycle times. My guess is the one without the skimmer would cycle quicker.

But as you guessed the debate will begin.

I am not very sure whether the cycle time is central; the side issue, even, is how robust the cycle will be at different level of ammonia at the end of the cycle. The skimmer is estimated to reduce virtual bioload by 30-40%.

The real thrust is the use of collected LR to cycle. You want to limit ammonia to a certain level by the skimmer and WC, not too high to kill "too many" lives and yet high enough to have enough nitrification at the end of the cycle. This is messy and laborious, more than many want to admit.

This is also very illogical, very muddy in concept. What is "too many" lives and what is a good compromise in the ammonia level? Is 1 ppm N good, or 0.5 ppm better and enough? What liives are you willing to kill and want have your lost and should have missed?

Also what pests should you have rejoice killing, on the other hand.

Like I said, an empirical tabulation of ammonia level indicating lives likely be saved or killed would be nice. Absent that, would you opt for indiscriminant killing or universal preservation of lives on LR? Like I said, it is very easy to make sure that cycling in advance can handle all possible die-off and preserve all viable lives on the rock, per ammonia tolerance.

Cycling is a start of the hobby; newbies can choose the muddy way or think about it on their own.

[returnofsid]

Is this thread about "Newbies" expecting Yes or No answers, and the reasons why "Yes" or "No" answers might not be appropriate? Or is this thread about the use of a skimmer during cycling?

BTW, this isn't a Yes or No Question.

[wooden_reefer]

Is this thread about "Newbies" expecting Yes or No answers, and the reasons why "Yes" or "No" answers might not be appropriate? Or is this thread about the use of a skimmer during cycling?



All the above, thru an extended illustration, I suppose.

Please do state other areas when yes or no is not appropriate, where a subject should not be simplified to all, including newbies. Please do.

[lordofthereef]

I don't know that people necessarily look for yes or no answers, it is just that the question is formed in that way because they may not know there is more than a simple yes or no. I do think that we like to over complicate things in the hobby though. FWIW I have gone with and without a skimmer, dumping skimmate back in and not, and have been fine every time. I am not one to heavily stock from the getgo though, but for a "nooby" who is asking questions about cycling I wouldn't recommend heavily stocking their tank from the getgo anyway, hence I wouldn't worry about an incredibly robust cycle.

[wooden_reefer]

I am not one to heavily stock from the getgo though, but for a "nooby" who is asking questions about cycling I wouldn't recommend heavily stocking their tank from the getgo anyway, hence I wouldn't worry about an incredibly robust cycle.

I am one for fast stocking per design bioload of a DT after a robust cycle, for myself, actually in QT first. This is a very good and convenient way to make sure there is no ammonia at all in QT and then in DT. This streamlines the QT process and promotes thoroughness. This is not essential, however, as I can always increase the nitrification capacity at any time by cycling another medium in a separate container and then using it in another tank. I can stock at any rate and sudden increase in bioload into the DT and still avoid ammonia exposure.


I don't recommend that newbies plan to stock quickly for disease control reason, but there is one concrete occasion when a newbie will be forced to do so, virtually. When there is an ich outbreak, it is best to QT all the fish at once and allow the DT to be fishless for eight or more weeks. Even a newbie should be quite aware of this possibility. It is indeed very easy to cycle a medium for use in QT for all fish at once, if one had the time, the approximately three weeks to cycle.

The worst a newbie should accept is the need to stock slowly so that nitrification bacteria population can catch up with bioload. This is by implication lesser cycling with livestock. This can easily be avoided. The new tank syndrome still exist now in 2010; this is regretable. I think this is stifling in skill development. A newbie would be clueless if an ich infestation breaks out in DT.

I do recommend that newbies stock slowly but not accept lesser cycling with livestock. After a robust cycle, a newbie can stock some fraction. Then if there is a sudden questionably large bioload, a newbie can add some previously cycled medium to make sure there will be no ammonia. Gradually stocking does less and less harm nearing completion of stocking. It is when bioload is low and you do a significant increase in bioload after waiting a long time that is the most dangerous.