Help with angel, tang! Id this brook, velvet, ich? Pics attached.

[jjk_reef00]

I bought two fish from a LFS a week ago. A 5" dussumieri tang, and a 1" annularius angel. I usually have very good luck getting healthy fish from this store but this time I have something bad.

I put both fish in my 55 gallon qt. On Wed I saw the dussumieri scratching against the back wall and against the rock. Thursday I noticed the angel didn't look the same, and friday it appeared much whiter in color. I got scared and put him into his own 10 gallon qt.

It is very difficult to get a good look at the dussumieri tang because he would hide from me any time I got near the tank, and still does if I'm more than 1 or 2 feet away from the tank. From the looks of the angel I don't think it is ich because there are no small white spots.

Today I saw the angel scratch on the rock I put in the 10 gallon. I did a freshwater dip on both fish.

The angel reacted very well and is out and about actively eating and picking at the rock. His appearance is just very bad. The dussumieri went into hiding and I'm sure I won't see him until tomorrow, but he eats everything I put into the tank.

The qt was well cycled because I had another tang in there for 8 weeks prior to adding these two fish.

I think it is brook or velvet, but I don't know for sure. I need to treat quick because it keeps getting worse and worse. I know it is not flukes.

My lfs said it sounds like brook and to treat with rid-ich which contains Formalin. At this point I'm leaning more towards a velvet diagnosis and am thinking about treating with Cupramine.

Here are some pics. I know they aren't the best but I don't have a good camera.

Dussumieri in the fresh water dip it was the only time I could get close enough to get a pic of him. He also changes colors in the tank and flashes quite a bit. Both fish have dark eyes (I don't know if that indicates anything). He has with spots on the top of his head and on parts of his body.

http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu234/jjk_reef00/17c631a1.jpg

[jjk_reef00]

Here are some pics of the angel:
The white patch in this photo isn't on the fish, it is on the glass. You can see the dark spot in the lower front of his body and it is much whiter all around.
http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu234/jjk_reef00/8fe8b59e.jpg

[jjk_reef00]

Eating dinichi pellets today:
http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu234/jjk_reef00/c8c7c5c4.jpg

[jjk_reef00]

http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu234/jjk_reef00/e900e042.jpg

[tang56]

really hard to tell from the pics but my best geuss is velvet (amyloodinium)

[jjk_reef00]

Thanks for the reply, any specific reason why you think it is velvet and not brook?
I also think it is velvet but I don't have experience with either.

Anyone have any recommendations on how to treat the fish?
Rid-ich or cupramine?

[WuHT]

Give paraguard a try

[Recty]

I dont have any answer as to what to treat with as the pictures arent good enough to see what it is for sure...

I do, however, think that isnt a dussumieri... they have white tail spines and your tang clearly has black spines. Plus the body shape doesnt look right.

[offthehook]

pics are no help really cant tell. Could allso just be stress my emperror gets them when mad . But doesn't hurt to qt them in coppersafe for a month to be safe

[Creetin]

Looks like velvet to me from the pics. Sorry. :(
Copper is the best treatment. IMO

[pktech]

Maybe go to a hardware store & pick up some 4" pvc elbows for him to hang out in for security? PVC won't absorb the additives you're using ...

[jjk_reef00]

Thanks for the info guys.
Recty, I also thought it wasn't a dussumieri...
What a bad experience, I'm just glad I qt'ed these fish!

[jjk_reef00]

Both fish are in copper now. The angel is picking at angel formula, which it wasn't doing this morning. And from what I can see the tang isn't scratching nearly as much. He does twitch from time to time.

I plan on doing a 50% water change every 1-2 days on the 10 gallon with the angel in it. And a 50% water change 2 times a week on the 55 gallon with the tang. Anyone have any recommendations for how to proceed with treatment and feeding?

[Recty]

Thanks for the info guys.
Recty, I also thought it wasn't a dussumieri...
What a bad experience, I'm just glad I qt'ed these fish!

It's most likely a A. Xanthopterus. Yellowfing tang it's called.

I'm glad to hear they are doing better, copper does wonders sometimes.

[angelfish7]

JJK , It seems that both fish are being treated for the same symptons so i'm curious why treat them separately... I hope everything goes well. I had very similar issue in my dt about two years ago and i lost numerous fish. Treatment wih cupramine saved most of my fish though i lost two large angles. I also treated them with prazi just in case there were any flukes in pic. good luck!

[jjk_reef00]

Thanks for the ID recty, I think you hit it right on the head because it looks exactly like the pics of the Yellowfin tang I just looked up. Man that fish gets really big at 27"! I have an 8' x 30" x 24" right now and that won't be big enough for that fish long term. The dussumieri from what I read gets 18-20" max and I thought that was really pushing it. I do plan on upgrading to a 10' x 4' in the next 3-5 years. I wonder if I'll be able to keep him until the upgrade...

angelfish7, I wanted to separate them because the angel is so small he was hard to monitor in a bigger tank. The main reason I separated them was the tang eagerly ate everything I threw into the tank while the angel's drive for food had drastically decreased because of the disease. I can put some angel formula in there and let him pick at it without worrying that the tang is going to out compete him for food.

When I did a fresh water dip I only saw 1 single fluke come off of the tang. I always dip in a dark container so I can easily see the flukes. I have dealt with flukes before and this is disease (whatever it is), is moving fast so immediate action had to be taken. If they recover from this I will treat with prazi. I treat all my fish with prazi.

I wish I would have separated them in the beginning but too late for that now...
The angel still looks really bad but at least he is eating. I'll keep you guys updated.

[jjk_reef00]

On a side note how does the yellowfin tang look compared to the dussumieri when they are full grown?

I looked up some photos of both and I can find cases where the dussumieri looks better and other photos where the yellowfin looks really nice as well. I guess it just depends on the individual fish.

[Recty]

Glad to hear they are doing OK.

IMO, the dussumieri is a more beautiful fish than the yellowfin, but to each his own. It all depends what you like. I had a gorgeous, I mean gorgeous dussumieri, it was definitely my favorite tang I've ever owned. Such a stunning fish, wow.

Any updates on the status of your fish?

[jjk_reef00]

I also like the dussumieri, and I remember you posting pics of yours a while back. Your pics, and others on rc is how I discovered how beautiful the dussumieri really is. I thought if the pics look that good, imagine how impressive it would look in person.

Both fish are at 0.5mg/L of cupramine as the instructions state.
When I woke up this morning I was looking for the angel, and couldn't find him. I got scared so I fed the tank with angel formula. All of a sudden he flies out of the opening in the vertical pvc pipe rushing all around the tank grabbing food as fast as possible. The angel did a complete 360 and now looks great! Really strange he was hiding in the vertical pipe because he always hides in the horizontal pipe...

He is acting perfectly normal, and his color has turned back to the original colors. I can barely see any white left on him. I can't believe how fast the copper worked, I really thought he was a goner. Whatever he had brook, velvet, etc... the cure was definitely copper.

I did see the tang scratch one time last night and he still has a twitch from time to time. His eyes are back to normal but it is hard to tell how he is doing because he hides whenever I come within 3 feet of the tank. He is still eating aggressively and is fairly active when I'm not within 10 feet of the tank.

How long should I keep them in copper? Directions say 14 days, but I've heard one month.

[jjk_reef00]

Thanks for all the help guys!
Here are some pics so you can see what I'm talking about.
Sorry for the poor quality (phone camera).
The vertical pvc in in there to hold the horizontal one firm against the back glass.

http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu234/jjk_reef00/bee58613.jpg
http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu234/jjk_reef00/4063bdf0.jpg
http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu234/jjk_reef00/d212fda3.jpg
http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu234/jjk_reef00/42ba6693.jpg

[Recty]

Cute little guy!

I talked with Seachem's support about Cupramine 6 months back or so... the bottle says use it for 2 weeks but Seachem's support recommends using it for 3 weeks.

Basically, if your fish are really having a hard time in it, then just do 2 weeks and you'll probably be OK. If they are doing fine in it though, I'd go for the full three weeks to make sure you've got it kicked.

Copper does work fast, doesnt it?

Just an FYI, it doesnt actually kill the ich on the fish, all it does is kill the free swimming stage of ich. So the reason you dont see ich anymore on the fish is all the cysts have hatched and swam off the fish, leaving a bunch of little holes in it's skin. No more ich survives to swim and catch onto the fish and start over again, so keeping the copper in the water for 3 weeks ensures all the ich that is sitting on the bottom waiting to hatch is eventually killed. You cant just see the fish looks clean and then stop treating, you need to do the full treatment time.

It's pretty important to keep water quality good during this time period too due to the damage the ich leaves on the fish, you dont want to start bacteria infections going.

All in all, it sounds like you are doing a good job and your fish are recovering, that's always good to see.

[jjk_reef00]

Recty, do you think what I have is Ich? I'm skeptical because I've had ich before and it never moved this fast.

[jjk_reef00]

I thought I'd post some pics of my tang. It took almost an hour to get these. I had to sit by the tank with food on the far side.
http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu234/jjk_reef00/18dd2ff9.jpg
http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu234/jjk_reef00/f63a7c48.jpg
http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu234/jjk_reef00/3f33efca.jpg
http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu234/jjk_reef00/8de67913.jpg
http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu234/jjk_reef00/4d6d723f.jpg
http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu234/jjk_reef00/0e834a44.jpg
http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu234/jjk_reef00/a98fefe2.jpg
http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu234/jjk_reef00/8a021bd0.jpg

[Recty]

Recty, do you think what I have is Ich? I'm skeptical because I've had ich before and it never moved this fast.

Hard to say... no picture you've posted has ever been remotely clear enough to see anything even wrong with the fish ;)

I'd bet it was ich though if an ich treatment made the problem go away.

The tang looks nice!

[Creetin]

Copper is also used for velvet. Often ich gets mistaken as velvet. Velvet kills much quicker! In a span of 2 to 3 days it can trake a healthy fish and kill it outright.
Glad the fish are doing better!!!