Into and First tank death

[pweissma]

Hi Everyone,
Back in high school I was actively involved in the hobby with three tanks in my bedroom, a mixed freshwater tank, an African cichlid tank and a FO saltwater tank. That was back in the 70s. Except for keeping a large oscar in college I've been away from hobby until now.

So I decided to get back into the hobby with a 34g Solana. Things had been going really well for a month until I added a blood shrimp and it died after a day. I'm hoping to get some idea as to why it happened. I'm feeling pretty bad about this. I know this kind of thing is inevitable but especially for animals taken from the wild I believe we should do all we can to keep them healthy.

Here are the details of the first month of my Solana. I used 30lbs of low density live rock. The tank cycled rather quickly. After adding the live rock my amonia and nitrates never really went up. After a few days they were at 0 so on 2/21 I added 2 ORA ocellaris clowns from my LFS. They immediately started eating and continue to do really well.

On 3/10 I added a CUC consisting of astrea, nessarius, and trochus snails, hermit crabs, plus a sand sifting sea cucumber. Also at this time I added the corals listed in my sig. The corals are colorful and fully open. I'm even noticing some growth. The astrea snails did a fantastic job of cleaning most of the slime but I still have some hair algae and various types of green and red macro algae. I've looked at a lot pictures but can't seem to identify any of it. Phosphates are close to 0, pH is 8.1-8.2 and nitrates are 0 to slightly over 0. I realized that my tank does get some direct morning sunlight despite being over 10 feet back from the window so I've been using a towel to cover the exposed side.

Feeling confident on Sunday I got an algae blenny and a blood shrimp. I dripped them both simultaneously in separate buckets for about 30 minutes. After dripping I transferred the shrimp to a small container with tank water and floated it for 5 minutes just to ensure there was no temperature shock. I transferred the blenny straight to the tank after dripping. The blenny hides most of the time. I'm hoping he starts coming out more. The shrimp seemed totally fine for the a day hanging upside down at various spots under an arch I built with the live rock. Then suddenly after having him in the tank for 28 hours he died.

I'm wondering if there could be something amiss in my tank. Did I not acclimate him properly? He did survive for over a day. Should I wait for my tank to age a bit more before trying again?
Thanks

[Track Rat]

Can you provide your water perameters, such as temp, sg, ammo, nitrates, etc. Red algea sounds like cyanobacteria, not good. How much natural sunlight is your tank getting?

[pweissma]

Can you provide your water perameters, such as temp, sg, ammo, nitrates, etc. Red algea sounds like cyanobacteria, not good. How much natural sunlight is your tank getting?

sg: 1.024 - 1.025
temp: 24.4 - 25.8 (75.9 - 78.4). I have a Jager 150W heater and it doesn't keep the temp completely constant.
Nitrates (salifert) last night 0. It has been up to 10ppm
Ammonia is 0

The tanks gets direct sunlight from 6am-9am.

I was unsure about calling the red growth algae. It's a deep red and. I could post a picture tonight. What can I do about it?

[Vin7250]

your tank cycled after only a few days? sounds strange. also you said in your post on 2/21 you added the clowns yet in your signature it says you started the tank on 2/21.... SLOW down....you never gave your tank the time to fully cycle. Try to get that livestock to someone to hold it for you. I bet your tank is going through the stages of a full cycle now. Are you using test strips to test parameters or a good test kit set?

[Vin7250]

also what are your NITRITE levels

[skiwez]

R U sure that the shrimp died? It may have just molted. I've had that happen with the last shrimp I bought. It molted the same day I put it in the tank got alittle freaked out at first.

All the other advice is the conventional wisdom of reefing, but the OP didin't say where he go the live rock from. Coulda been fully cycled and therefore would have little to no cycle

[pweissma]

Thanks for the help everyone.
I got my live rock from Premium Aquatics. I believe it was fully cured but it was out of the water, wrapped in wet newspaper, for a day and a half.
Test kits: I have the API master reef test kit that contains calcium, KH, phosphate and nitrate. I have the Salifert pH, Ammonia, and Mg test kits. I don't have a nitrite test kit.

I hope the shrimp was dead. Even worse then my shrimp dying in the tank would him dying in my trash shoot.

[Sugar Magnolia]

The rock, being left wrapped in wet paper is going to have some die off, thus it needs to be cycled. You need to get a nitrite test kit.

[Vin7250]

nitrite ammonia pH most important right off the bat. day and a half???? wow thats a long time to be out of water and then to assume your tank was cycled in a few days was probably the issue. Most peopel agree a few hours is too much to be out of water to assume you are going to get no cycle. Try to get that livestock out of the tank and to your LFS or a friend.

[w16227]

Thanks for the help everyone.


I hope the shrimp was dead. Even worse then my shrimp dying in the tank would him dying in my trash shoot.

If he molted - then it is still in the tank. A molt is the shedding of the shrimps outer shell. Looks like a dead shrimp (or crab - they molt too). Look round for antenna --- you may be surprised.

Ditto to others with slowing down. It is possible to have a "cycled" tank at this stage, but by the description of the build it is highly unlikely.

For at least the next month, you should always have extra saltwater on hand for emergency water changes. Test for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate daily (at least). If the tank spikes, you want to minimize the effects. The solanas are pretty good all in one tanks - but they are small. It does not take much to spike the chemistry so you need to observe closely.

Good luck,

[gweston]

I had a fast tank cycle in a matter of a few weeks.

However.. the rock was cured in my basement for a few months before hand. They were exposed to air about 2 minutes moving from the container to the new tank. The sand was also completely cured/cycled with minimal air exposure.

I closely monitored ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. I had a small ammonia spike, nitrites rose. Then nitrates rose up and ammonia&nitrite disappeared. I gave it a bit more time, performed a large water change and added a clean up crew and lightly fed the tank and critters for another week+ still monitoring parameters.

I finally added some softy/lps corals about a week later once I had params in order (ph, calcium, etc etc). Then added a single fish about 5 days after that.

With params under close watch, I had a tiny diatom bloom after the fish was added (additional nutrients due to feedings). The clean up crew make quick work of it. Params remained ideal. I added some chaeto in a home brew basked, which brought nitrates down to around 5ppm instead of the 10-15 it was hanging around at.

The best plan is to go in stages, monitor parameters closely. Keep a spare water change close at hand in case you detect an off parameter (especially if you still have critters in the tank!). If you have critters, maybe keeping a small supply of stress zyme or ammonia/nitrite neutralizer is worth having for emergencies. Though should not be depended upon.

Ammonia and nitrites are the worse for critters. Nitrates are more tolerable but should be kept in check with water changes, macroalgae (chaeto), skimming, and keeping feeding/excess nutrients in check.

[pweissma]

I've had two very healthy clowns for over a month. Now I also have an active healthy blenny. My corals are fully open and vibrant, and my zoas has doubled in size. I test Nitrate and Ammonia frequently. Ammonia (Salifert) has always been 0 and nitrate (API) never passed 10 ppm. All my water parameters are good. If my tank wasn't cycled when I added the clowns, it's cycled now.
I do have various types of algae growing in my tank but I'm hearing this is common in a new tank. The algae is not out of control.

Premium Aquatics tells me that my story isn't unique and that they often hear of similar cases from their customers. Many of their customers have reported little or no spike and that the tank was ready for livestock in several days. My rock had no visible organic growth and no hitchhikers that might have died in transit. My guess is that the rock was fully cycled and that the bacteria and other important micro organisms are able to make the trip. My rock did not experience the typical die-off since it didn't have the various algae and other life that would die if left out of the water.

As far as nitrite goes I'm in the camp with Randy Holmes-Farley who is a PhD chemist and former moderator of the Reef Chemistry Forum here on reefcentral.com.

He concludes in http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-06/rhf/index.php "I haven't tested any aquaria for nitrite in years, despite setting up several reef aquaria in that time. I simply do not think that nitrite is worth the time and expense of testing, unlike ammonia, phosphate, alkalinity, pH, calcium, etc. It is my opinion that many things other than nitrite concentration are more worthy of reef aquarists' attention."

[pweissma]

Yes -- the shrimp was dead.

[rbnice1]

Just as a side note. I drip[ acclimate any inverts I get especially shrimp for a minimum of 2 hours. Also during this time you need to keep temp stable.

Anything less it seems like they die. If you run a sump the best way is to float the bag in the sump then slow drip into that bag. I use a mag cleaner to hold the bag up so it doesnt sink.

[Saltyllama]

I've had two very healthy clowns for over a month. Now I also have an active healthy blenny. My corals are fully open and vibrant, and my zoas has doubled in size. I test Nitrate and Ammonia frequently. Ammonia (Salifert) has always been 0 and nitrate (API) never passed 10 ppm. All my water parameters are good. If my tank wasn't cycled when I added the clowns, it's cycled now.
I do have various types of algae growing in my tank but I'm hearing this is common in a new tank. The algae is not out of control.

Premium Aquatics tells me that my story isn't unique and that they often hear of similar cases from their customers. Many of their customers have reported little or no spike and that the tank was ready for livestock in several days. My rock had no visible organic growth and no hitchhikers that might have died in transit. My guess is that the rock was fully cycled and that the bacteria and other important micro organisms are able to make the trip. My rock did not experience the typical die-off since it didn't have the various algae and other life that would die if left out of the water.

As far as nitrite goes I'm in the camp with Randy Holmes-Farley who is a PhD chemist and former moderator of the Reef Chemistry Forum here on reefcentral.com.

He concludes in http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-06/rhf/index.php "I haven't tested any aquaria for nitrite in years, despite setting up several reef aquaria in that time. I simply do not think that nitrite is worth the time and expense of testing, unlike ammonia, phosphate, alkalinity, pH, calcium, etc. It is my opinion that many things other than nitrite concentration are more worthy of reef aquarists' attention."


The only thing I say to that is that clowns are one of the more hardy fish in aquaria, and shrimp are known to be very sensative. Many people use them as there reef canary. They will be the first to tell you that you have an issue.

Also, nitrite is rarely in my testing routine. HOWEVER, I feel it is very important when cycling a tank. I bet Randy Holmes-Farley waits longer than you did to add life to a newly setup tank.

Good luck

[pweissma]

Bump

Just as a side note. I drip[ acclimate any inverts I get especially shrimp for a minimum of 2 hours. Also during this time you need to keep temp stable.

Anything less it seems like they die. If you run a sump the best way is to float the bag in the sump then slow drip into that bag. I use a mag cleaner to hold the bag up so it doesnt sink.

rbnice1, thanks -- Like your Yasha pic. This is the kind of response I was hoping for when I started this thread. Of the two, temp and salinity, salinity is more important hence the drip is preferred but temp is important too. Dripping into a bag floating in the sump is a great idea but I have a Solana and this wouldn't work. Drip method is considered better than floating and adding water with a cup but if temp is allowed to go off than this will create a problem.

I'm still a little shaken by losing the shrimp that appeared healthy just a couple hours earlier. I feel that I know what a healthy fish looks like but I'm not so confident of my assessment of inverts or coral. Guess it had to be the shrimp itself or acclimation. (I replaced the shrimp and the new one is fine.)

Although I discounted this as a possibility, I took some flash photos of the shrimp a couple hours before I found him dead. Nothing I found online seems to support any negative impact from flashes.

[Chiefsurfer]

pweissma,

I do not think that cycling is your issue. EVEN if you did not get a proper cycle, when/if you should have had one, in the month it has been up, if nitrite were going to spike high enough to hurt your shrimp(although lower levels can sense they are so sensitive), you would have had to see ammonia or big nitrate spike. Even though I would tend to agree, a day and a half out of water SHOULD produce die-off and a cycle, seeing as how you have had NO ammonia or nitrate spike since 2/10(from what I can tell, you said it was good for a month, until you added the shrimp, you say you added the shrimp on 3/10). By now, almost 2 full months later(8-9 weeks), you would have seen a cycle show up, even without the nitrite test.

As to my advice, give it a little longer before trying him again. It seems like you have all the test-kits you need, AND you are testing fairly regularly, and none of the numbers I have seen would really affect the shrimp to the point of 28 hr death. Also, if you have snails and hermits, and none of them have passed, another reason I don't think it's definitely water-chemistry at this point. I agree it might have been a molt. Many shrimp and crab molts are so convincing, MANY people think they are actual shrimp themselves. Many things that molt will be stress-induced into doing so, so it is likely it would do it in the first few days.

[w16227]

I've had two very healthy clowns for over a month. Now I also have an active healthy blenny. My corals are fully open and vibrant, and my zoas has doubled in size. I test Nitrate and Ammonia frequently. Ammonia (Salifert) has always been 0 and nitrate (API) never passed 10 ppm. All my water parameters are good. If my tank wasn't cycled when I added the clowns, it's cycled now.
I do have various types of algae growing in my tank but I'm hearing this is common in a new tank. The algae is not out of control.

Premium Aquatics tells me that my story isn't unique and that they often hear of similar cases from their customers. Many of their customers have reported little or no spike and that the tank was ready for livestock in several days. My rock had no visible organic growth and no hitchhikers that might have died in transit. My guess is that the rock was fully cycled and that the bacteria and other important micro organisms are able to make the trip. My rock did not experience the typical die-off since it didn't have the various algae and other life that would die if left out of the water.

As far as nitrite goes I'm in the camp with Randy Holmes-Farley who is a PhD chemist and former moderator of the Reef Chemistry Forum here on reefcentral.com.

He concludes in http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-06/rhf/index.php "I haven't tested any aquaria for nitrite in years, despite setting up several reef aquaria in that time. I simply do not think that nitrite is worth the time and expense of testing, unlike ammonia, phosphate, alkalinity, pH, calcium, etc. It is my opinion that many things other than nitrite concentration are more worthy of reef aquarists' attention."


Sound like things are stable - which is good. Just be careful of picking and choosing ideas to justify your thought process.

Premium aquatics may sat that rock shipped in wet newspaper may not produce a cycle - but this would be exception and not the norm. If this was commonplace for them, I would have to question how "live" the rock was before shipping. Any live rock out of the water for a significant amount of time will have some dieoff. Another RC sponsor - Tampa Bay Saltwater sells rock straight from the ocean floor teeming with life and growth. They ship IN WATER - and still have dieoff.



Randy Homes-Farley is an excellent resource on RC and has forgotten more about reef chemistry than most experiences reefers know. He is correct, in that Nitrite testing has little value long term in a reef. However, it will give you a lot of information with respect to how a tank cycle is progressing. You stated that your tank is cycled now because of the clowns - well, you cannot really be sure of any cycle because you never saw any spikes in the testing. You may be cycled, you may also have such a small bacterial population that the tank is undergoing a very long, slow cycle. A limited bioload will not spike anything harmful - but a large snail death or dumping too much food in the tank can spike something.

Good luck

[Kfig7]

Just as a side note. I drip[ acclimate any inverts I get especially shrimp for a minimum of 2 hours. Also during this time you need to keep temp stable.

Anything less it seems like they die. If you run a sump the best way is to float the bag in the sump then slow drip into that bag. I use a mag cleaner to hold the bag up so it doesnt sink.

Sorry for the unrelated reply but thats a good idea :) Why didnt I think of that lol. My house stays pretty cold in winter so I dont drip acclimate because of the water temperature in my drip bucket would get too cold. I have to try that, thanks.

[Chiefsurfer]

^Also, just for me. When I get a fish home, I would take a towel, like a bath matt, run it under hot water, then place it in a ziploc-bag, and under my plastic acclimating container. Pretty consistently it would keep the water 78-79 degrees.

[pweissma]

... you may also have such a small bacterial population that the tank is undergoing a very long, slow cycle. A limited bioload will not spike anything harmful - but a large snail death or dumping too much food in the tank can spike something.

Good luck

An unsettling alternative. I have had at least a couple hermit crabs die. Don't know if that's a sign of bad water quality or if the lack of an ensuing spike is a good sign. My snails seem fine. A few could have died but I know how many of each type I bought and most if not all are still around.

I just added a forth fish, a small blue assessor. I also started feeding with frozen food in addition to spectrum. The frozen food has more waste even though I turn the pumps off when I feed. With just the clowns I could direct each pellet into the mouth of a fish. I'll soon know if my tank is really cycled. I'm testing ammonia and nitrate every couple of days and keeping a water change ready. Not planning on adding more bioload for a long time but will probably add some corals in a month if things remain stable.
Thanks

[Vin7250]

you added another fish with an unknown waterquality problem..... oh boy!!!! contrary to what people believe about nitrite, in your situation it is probably necessary for you to test for it.

[slosht]

Is it possible there is copper in your system? with the number of inverts perishing it might be something to check.

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

[pweissma]

Is it possible there is copper in your system? with the number of inverts perishing it might be something to check.

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

Don't think so. I never treated anything with copper. No coins used for decoration. ;) Anyway, it's just 2 hermit crabs and the newly added shrimp.

[trigger:)]

try another shrimp, see what happens. I understand ur respect for nature, buy stuff is going to die. We can't always help that!