Tampering During Shipping???

[WDLV]

I have shipped and rec'd a fair amount of fish and coral in the last few years. I shipped a package yesterday and had the recipient tell me he was called by Fedex because the package was leaking. I have rec'd packages a couple times with UPS and have heard a few people recently describing a similar story. That is that the carrier repackaged the box in transit and called the recipient saying that the package was leaking. When they got there the fish was either gasping or dead.

I have experienced this with reefer to reefer shipments as well as those that came from a vendor that does not normally ship. Such as a LFS that is located in another state. It does not seem to be a problem with packages coming from online vendors who regularly do buisness with FedEx, UPS or other carriers.

My gut is telling me that these carriers are deliberately poking holes in the bags when they determine that there are aquatic animals present and in some cases repackaging them under the guise that they repackaged because of the leak not repackaged to cause a leak and send a message to the consumer.

When I ship, I double bag and in some cases triple bag my animals. The one I shipped was double bagged for one fish and triple bagged for another fish (because I didn't like the tie job on the first bag.) I pack the bags tightly and add bubble wrap or packing peanuts to insure that they do not move inside the styrofoam container.

I received one box from a vendor that had been triple bagged and then placed inside another larger bag and was still found to be leaking. They used the metal crimping machine to tie off the bags. This was from a wholesaler who usually only ships via pallet but used UPS in this case because it was a small order. If a wholesaler doesn't know how to tie a bag off I don't know who would. The second shipmentcame through a private airport to airport carrier and there was no issue wharsoever.

The only other thing I can think of is that inspectors who are searching for drugs or dangerous materials are repackaging them so that they can evaluate what is in them. How the bags would be damaged in that case is beyond me.

If anyone knows how or why this happens I'd like to know. I have a FedEx account. I'm pretty ****ed that the reefer on the other end said that his bags were leaking. I used to work in shipping and receiving. I know how to package a box. There is no reason I can think of that those bags ought to be leaking.

Thoughts????

[returnofsid]

What is the effect of high altitude, and pressurization differences, on a tight bag of water. I've often wondered if this causes leakage, at times.

I highly doubt that any shipper is intentionally poking holes in bags. I have had bags, from LFS or experienced fish/coral shippers, leak. I've packaged corals up, VERY WELL, driven across state and found some of the bags to be leaking. This could be due to faults in the seals of the bags, as apposed to any "tie, rubberband, metal clip issue." I've packaged bags of water, squeezed them, and had a few spring leaks in the bottom seam, before.

[woofu]

depending on the value and if u insure the package , ups and fed ex will open the package and inspect it.. believe me, i know first hand.. they tend not to put stuff back the way u put it either.. i usually do 3 to 5 bags per item... this is why i will only ship usps.. they are the only ones that will actually ship live fish or coral with no questions asked.. if you where to tell ups or fed ex u are are shipping livestock or corals they will tell u its against there policies. and you must ship through livestock department..

[WDLV]

What is the effect of high altitude, and pressurization differences, on a tight bag of water. I've often wondered if this causes leakage, at times.

I highly doubt that any shipper is intentionally poking holes in bags. I have had bags, from LFS or experienced fish/coral shippers, leak. I've packaged corals up, VERY WELL, driven across state and found some of the bags to be leaking. This could be due to faults in the seals of the bags, as apposed to any "tie, rubberband, metal clip issue." I've packaged bags of water, squeezed them, and had a few spring leaks in the bottom seam, before.
I considered the seams and fish spines after posting.... The fact that you have traveled with them and had the problem gives some support to the idea of seam or other bag failures.

In what ways might we circumvent this problem? I like clowns and have owned and subsequently lost interest in and sold quite a few. I have a 100% survival rate as a shipper and would very much like to keep it that way.

I would hate for someone to buy a $600 pair of clowns from me just to receive a DOA... or vice-versa.

[WDLV]

depending on the value and if u insure the package , ups and fed ex will open the package and inspect it.. believe me, i know first hand.. they tend not to put stuff back the way u put it either.. i usually do 3 to 5 bags per item... this is why i will only ship usps.. they are the only ones that will actually ship live fish or coral with no questions asked.. if you where to tell ups or fed ex u are are shipping livestock or corals they will tell u its against there policies. and you must ship through livestock department..

The on line vendors I deal with more frequently (DFS/LA, Bluezoo, SWF) have UPS and FedEx accounts. Are they buying better bags or are the boxes maybe handled differently due to something written on the box???

I always insure the packages I ship for the amount of the sale for the buyer's sake but at what point can I lodge a complaint? The way I'm seeing this, if they repackage a shipment and it arrives leaking, then I say they damaged or tampered with it during shipping and THE CARRIER not the sender should be responsible for any damage or loss. However if it arrives leaking in it's original packaging with no external damage, it is THE SENDER not the carrier who is at fault.

Oh, and what you you mean by "livestock department?" Is this maybe why the online vendors have better success???

[greggnyce]

this is why i will only ship usps.

Wait until they lose your package. You will likely never find it unless you know some one who works there. I do not want to get into the whole story but they lost a chiller I shipped, a chiller. They just called the other day 8 months later to see if I ever recieved it, terrible..

I would think all three choices are possible but not with any intended actions. I still feel like ups and fed ex will handle your package better than the post office. Private carriers have more of a responsiblitly to their customers and better service.

[CorkPullerPHL]

I find it incredibly difficult to believe a carrier would systematically damage packages.

For it to happen to the op more than once is unfortunate and unlucky, but certainly doesn't come anywhere near showing a trend or pattern.

Op, that really does stink. I'm sorry to hear of you losses. :sad2:

[jd474]

There is an aquarium (that will remain nameless) that was having major issues with this. Essentially the employees at the shipping company (also will remain nameless), were intentionally opening their shipping packages to "look" at the animals, and was actually caught doing this. We received 2 large stonefish from them once, with a friendly reminder to the shipping company that essentially read: "Stonefish (Synanceia sp.), if you feel the need to open this, please be aware that the venom is fatal to humans. In other words, they will kill you. Have a great day :)" So it HAS happened before. With that being said, I have also shipped/received a large number of animals, and occasionally get leaky boxes (double/triple bagged), as well. It's just part of the deal.

[johnd651]

not to knock on any company/person, but i work for a chemical company. and the normal fedex and ups guys are always careful with our shipments. but every so often there is a different driver, and he does not seem to care at all. he will throw the boxes off the truck, and stack them. he are shipping haz chemicals...they are placarded like crazy. i vote that its some part-timer whos at his third job of the day.

[woofu]

what mil bags do u use? it doesnt really matter if u insure it they will not pay u at anyone of the delivery providers.. usps will give u shipping cost back.. and as far as them opening the package they have the right to do so and will fight you over it. and will not pay you.. everyone dogs on usps but they have been the most reliable for me. b4 shipping they have on there web sight an estimater and will let u know if it will make in one day.. some people that live in the boon docks or far from the main hub they dont gaurantee one day,.. but i leave that responsability to buyer.. usps has only had one package make it late out of about 50 now. and it still survived. shipping around holidays is bad with any of them..when u ship from live stock department they only ship certain parts of the year. they are pressure control and heated.. i just ship the regular usps express and havent had any reall issue.. as far as the one guy losing a chiller, stuff happens and it doesnt really matter what shipping provider u use...i have problems with both ups an fed ex...

[WDLV]

I have NOT had a lot of LOSSES from these sort of things happening to packages I have rec'd and have had no losses on outgoing packages. I do however find it suspicious that they would transfer the contents of one leaky package to another leaky package. Why waste packing materials if it's just gonna continue to leak when you could throw a hefty bag around it and call it a day.

I don't recall what MIL bags I am using. I don't think I could even tie a 3MIL bag without the knot leaking. So, probably 1-2MIL They are about the same thickness as those used at your average LFS or online vendor.

If the carrier is not going to insure the shipment, why should I pay additional money based on the estimated value of the contents? I don't claim to know exactly what the policy is on shipping insurance but am guessing it's common sense based. If it's damaged or lost, the carrier pays. If it comes down to me losing a pair of McCullochi clowns to the tune of $6,000 due to their negligence I guarantee you my lawer will be contacted at the first hint of hesitation for reimbursement. Especially when the package is marked "LIVE TROPICAL FISH."
I understand very clearly that there are risks associated with shipping live tropical fish but people opening my package during transit and potentially piercing the bag either intentionally or unintentionally should not be among my concerns. That's covered by the next label that says "HANDLE WITH CARE."

For the record, I did not have either of those labels on the box I shipped out yesterday, but it generally does if it's coming from one of my usual vendors.

[greggnyce]

[QUOTE][as far as the one guy losing a chiller, stuff happens and it doesnt really matter what shipping provider u use...i have problems with both ups an fed ex...
/QUOTE]

USPS was absolutley useless in helping to find the package they lost. I had a terrible time with even getiting the slightest information. The post masters had me call other post offices looking for the package they lost. I am glad you had luck with the usps, but that is rare. The people at the post office do not care if they lose your package, because they keep their jobs and federal pension anyway, there is no incentive to help you. Number one, they cannot track your package, delivery notification is not tracking and the unhelpful customer service reps are more than happy to tell you that. If they lose your package they say they will investigate and call within a day, do not expect the call for months. Third, when this happened I did a search on this and there are so many stories of this happeneing it will make your head spin. Fourth, they send all lost packages to atlanta, where they have auctions on stuff they cannot deliver, so your stuff will dissapear, in the case of fish and corals they will be long dead before they find it. Fifth, The US Postal Service does not garauntee delivery, if you do not beleive me call and ask.

I eventualy tracked down the package with the help of a freind who wirks for the post office, but if I did not know her, forget it. When they did find my package they did not even deliver it to the original address, they gave it back to me and did not refund the shipping cost.

[woofu]

if you ship express and it dont get there on the time guaranteed they give you shipping money the day it gets delivered.. but like i said not one of the shipping providers pay for any livestock or live corals unless its through there live stock department.. its in there policy.. and even with a lawyer they would win.. it is writen in fine print..

[ludnix]

I would try using those plastic bags that are advertised as letting oxygen in and co2 out. They seems to be able to stretch really far and seem less likely to leak.

I've had a lot of packages leak using the regular LFS style bags, sometimes before it's even out of the city despite double bagging.

[lordofthereef]

I suppose it is possible that the damage is deliberate. I simply wonder what their motive would be though. I can say that these shippers tend to be rough with everything. not just live fish. I frequently get packages from my family from California and the box often gets to me looking like it survived a bomb. I know the box was in good shape when it left because they are generally shipping to me in flat rate boxes.

[returnofsid]

Does anyone have any experience or knowledge about what the high altitudes and pressure differences do to our bags of water?

[WDLV]

Wait until they lose your package. You will likely never find it unless you know some one who works there. I do not want to get into the whole story but they lost a chiller I shipped, a chiller. They just called the other day 8 months later to see if I ever recieved it, terrible..

I would think all three choices are possible but not with any intended actions. I still feel like ups and fed ex will handle your package better than the post office. Private carriers have more of a responsiblitly to their customers and better service.
That's pretty consistant with what I've heard/experienced. Envelopes... OK. Boxes... not so much.

I find it incredibly difficult to believe a carrier would systematically damage packages.

For it to happen to the op more than once is unfortunate and unlucky, but certainly doesn't come anywhere near showing a trend or pattern.

Op, that really does stink. I'm sorry to hear of you losses. :sad2:
I suppose it is possible that the damage is deliberate. I simply wonder what their motive would be though. I can say that these shippers tend to be rough with everything. not just live fish. I frequently get packages from my family from California and the box often gets to me looking like it survived a bomb. I know the box was in good shape when it left because they are generally shipping to me in flat rate boxes.

One reason that I believe this is that I work at a hospital repairing medical equipment. Given the nature of the repairs, I order packages through FedEx daily that are shipped priority overnight. They are often the same size as the boxes used to ship fish. In fact most of the boxes I use are used to transport drugs that need to be refrigerated. So, I'd say they are the exact same size. ;) I have NEVER seen one of those boxes come in having been repackaged by the carrier (FedEx and UPS Exclusively.) Naturally I have to question it. Given some of your responses I am opening my mind to the possibility that there are other factors that I did not fully consider before starting this thread but I remain suspicious. The only motives I can think of are 1. Because they can and 2. because they want you to use a more expensive service that they offer.

There is an aquarium (that will remain nameless) that was having major issues with this. Essentially the employees at the shipping company (also will remain nameless), were intentionally opening their shipping packages to "look" at the animals, and was actually caught doing this. We received 2 large stonefish from them once, with a friendly reminder to the shipping company that essentially read: "Stonefish (Synanceia sp.), if you feel the need to open this, please be aware that the venom is fatal to humans. In other words, they will kill you. Have a great day :)" So it HAS happened before. With that being said, I have also shipped/received a large number of animals, and occasionally get leaky boxes (double/triple bagged), as well. It's just part of the deal.
LOL! Good stuff! You're nicer than I am. I wouldn't have warned the MFs. Good way of finding out who's doing the wrong thing.

not to knock on any company/person, but i work for a chemical company. and the normal fedex and ups guys are always careful with our shipments. but every so often there is a different driver, and he does not seem to care at all. he will throw the boxes off the truck, and stack them. he are shipping haz chemicals...they are placarded like crazy. i vote that its some part-timer whos at his third job of the day.
Probably so.

if you ship express and it dont get there on the time guaranteed they give you shipping money the day it gets delivered.. but like i said not one of the shipping providers pay for any livestock or live corals unless its through there live stock department.. its in there policy.. and even with a lawyer they would win.. it is writen in fine print..
I can attest to this. I have been reimbursed twice.

I would try using those plastic bags that are advertised as letting oxygen in and co2 out. They seems to be able to stretch really far and seem less likely to leak.

I've had a lot of packages leak using the regular LFS style bags, sometimes before it's even out of the city despite double bagging.
Good thought... but I still have about 750 of the others. Guess I'll have to quadruple bag them for now.

[woofu]

has anyone tried the vaccum seal bags,food saver?

[WDLV]

What do these bags look like anyway? Are they like a ziplock or are they more like the bags used by fish stores and wholesalers? If they are ziplock they definately will not work because it's not a strong enough seal to withstand pressure changes in a plane's cargo hold.

BTW, I spoke with Fedex Friday and they said they had no restriction on people shipping fish. Only on reptiles and other terrestreal animals. I didn't ask for clarification because I have no plans of shipping that kind of stuff. I asked about shipping insurance. They said that if a fish were to die because of them losing, delaying or damaging a package that you would simply submit a claim and that you would be reimbursed for the value of the fish as well as the shipping charges.
I also asked about shipping to Canada. They simply said that you would have to consult with their offices in Canada to determine if there were any restrictions on species etc. but that it was otherwise not a problem. Oh and they do ship overnight to Canada too.

I have had good experiences in dealing with them in the past. My general impression is that they want repeat customers and don't mind a financial loss here and there if it keeps you coming back.

[noahm]

I would try using those plastic bags that are advertised as letting oxygen in and co2 out. They seems to be able to stretch really far and seem less likely to leak.

I've had a lot of packages leak using the regular LFS style bags, sometimes before it's even out of the city despite double bagging.

Stretching would be important, as well as leaving some room for expansion in the first place. Altitude makes a huge impact on the swelling of those bags. I would bet this is one of the major causes. I live at 4500 feet and over a pass. Stuff swells up big time if it is bought in the valley and taken home.

The other cause is very much the case of mishandling. Not usually by the driver, but a lot of the sorting facilities have entry level people working that sometimes think it is funny to kick stuff across the room, especially if it say 'Fragile' or something. I know people who started there at UPS. Imagine the effect of a quart of water slamming into the side of a bag.

[The Velvet Sea]

Does anyone have any experience or knowledge about what the high altitudes and pressure differences do to our bags of water?

I'm fairly certain (physics class was a long long time ago) that changes in outside air pressure do not affect the density of water. Liquids do not expand or contract under different air pressures like gases do. Any air in your bags will expand and contract with changes in the surrounding air pressure though.

[The Velvet Sea]

has anyone tried the vaccum seal bags,food saver?

I have received vacuum sealed bags. There was no air in the bags at all, just water and corals. It was the driest package of aquarium livestock I have ever received. No leakage whatsoever. Generally when I receive twisted and tied bags there is always at least a little dribble of water that escapes into the packing or secondary bags.

[GreshamH]

I would try using those plastic bags that are advertised as letting oxygen in and co2 out. They seems to be able to stretch really far and seem less likely to leak.

I've had a lot of packages leak using the regular LFS style bags, sometimes before it's even out of the city despite double bagging.

While the Kordon bags stretch, they are not as strong as normal poly bags used extensively though out the trade. I've shipped thousands upon thousands of fish, corals, inverts, etc in the poly bags and have had a great track record. I've also put the breathable bags to task and for fish I find they are far inferior to the normal poly bags used in terms of strength. FWIW I still do use breathable bags, but just for rotifers that have no spines.

[GreshamH]

I have received vacuum sealed bags. There was no air in the bags at all, just water and corals. It was the driest package of aquarium livestock I have ever received. No leakage whatsoever. Generally when I receive twisted and tied bags there is always at least a little dribble of water that escapes into the packing or secondary bags.

While that is fine for inverts and such, it's not ideal for fish that need more o2 for the trip then that is saturated in their water. Even if you super saturate the shipping water they will quickly use it up.

[The Velvet Sea]

While that is fine for inverts and such, it's not ideal for fish that need more o2 for the trip then that is saturated in their water. Even if you super saturate the shipping water they will quickly use it up.

Quite true, and I never meant to imply otherwise. For what it is worth, it is possible to use a kitchen vacuum sealer to seal a bag without drawing all of the air out. Not sure if you could plump the bag up and seal it like the standard method for bagging fish though.

[AARON167]

Does anyone have any experience or knowledge about what the high altitudes and pressure differences do to our bags of water?

Cargo planes usually store their parcels in pressurized compartments that equal around 8,000 feet above sea level.

[biggraham]

[QUOTE][as far as the one guy losing a chiller, stuff happens and it doesnt really matter what shipping provider u use...i have problems with both ups an fed ex...
/QUOTE]

USPS was absolutley useless in helping to find the package they lost. I had a terrible time with even getiting the slightest information. The post masters had me call other post offices looking for the package they lost. I am glad you had luck with the usps, but that is rare. The people at the post office do not care if they lose your package, because they keep their jobs and federal pension anyway, there is no incentive to help you. Number one, they cannot track your package, delivery notification is not tracking and the unhelpful customer service reps are more than happy to tell you that. If they lose your package they say they will investigate and call within a day, do not expect the call for months. Third, when this happened I did a search on this and there are so many stories of this happeneing it will make your head spin. Fourth, they send all lost packages to atlanta, where they have auctions on stuff they cannot deliver, so your stuff will dissapear, in the case of fish and corals they will be long dead before they find it. Fifth, The US Postal Service does not garauntee delivery, if you do not beleive me call and ask.

I eventualy tracked down the package with the help of a freind who wirks for the post office, but if I did not know her, forget it. When they did find my package they did not even deliver it to the original address, they gave it back to me and did not refund the shipping cost.

Have U tried to use Registered Mail? Everybody that touches a peace of registered mail, has to sign for it. I'm a mail carrier & was told from day 1, if U loose a peace of registered mail, that's Ur job. Most registered mail travel by lock & only a handful of people have a key to unlock it. Here is the description of Registered Mail.

When you’re sending valuable or irreplaceable items through the mail, protect them with Registered Mail™.

Items you send with Registered Mail are placed under tight security from the point of mailing to the point of delivery, and insured up to $25,000 against loss or damage. And you can verify the date and time of delivery and the delivery attempts online.

They should have been able to track Ur package, unless it didn't have tracking numbers on it. I know that a lot of stuff gets sent to dead letter when it doesn't have the right shipping address, or return address on it. U wouldn't believe how much mail comes that just say Dad, Mom, or Grandparents. It doesn't have a delivery address or return address. Can U imagine how many Dad, Mom, or Grandparents that live on a mail route.

[WDLV]

I don't know what carrier you work for but I'm guessing it's not Fed Ex 'cause they leave packages I'm supposed to sign for on my doorstep frequently. Actually I appreciate this gesture as I don't want to have to try and track it down later. I'm admittedly rather impatient when I'm waiting for stuff.

If I ever get a subpoena I'd really appreciate not having to sign for it!!! ;)

[ReefTECK]

All I have to say is that UPS and DHL are forever my mortal enemies. If I wasn't afraid of being sued I would ice down my driveway in the winter while expecting deliveries from them.

They often time show up at work (a LFS) with boxes that are CLEARLY marked "this side up" upside down and sideways. I've even stepped out the back door just in time to see UPS/DHL guys THROW boxes from their trucks onto their two wheelers (some 4-5')!!!! They got a piece of my mind.

FedEX has never been quite that bad

[Seeing Green]

So if you are worried about the high pressure situations causing a rupture in the bag, bag the first one, and with a larger bag go around that, and tie the knot so it will be able to handle maybe 10% more stuff fter sucking all the air out of it. and repat again for one more bag.

In theory, this should meanthat if the inside bag bursts, the second bag will absorb all of the contents without overinflating because the water will not change size all that much. The only difference in the size would be based on internal presssure of the bag, water should be being held at greater than 1 atmosphere in that bag because most people do the thing that partially pressurizes the bag. So really there shouldnt be cause for alarm in this, aside from if the bag only springs a little leak... the water will leak into the second bag potentially leaving the fish dry....

Finally, there are bag seals for sal also, which basically melt the sheets of plastic together, but honestly, I have seen varied results on this and if you did it and it melted through it would be a stress riser, and give greater potential for leak.

[WDLV]

Thanks. I might just tie the bags off so they're loose. I generally make sure they're taught so they won't move around in the box and the fish can't get stuck in corners or folds.
Maybe large pickling jars would work well.... At least then if I pad them well and they break, I have proof that my package was mis-handled.

[iamwrasseman]

my only experience with altitude pressure was with a package of pringles potato chips . i noticed the top foil wrap was a bit wrinkled at the airport and when we were in the air at cruising altitude the foil was stretched tight and bowed outward . it never broke and when we got on the ground it was just like before we took off . there was some noticeable pressure but not much as a result of altitude .just my personnel experience .

[iamwrasseman]

oh and the water in a bag will not compress but the "gasses" ,oxygen or atmosphere will expand and contract with pressure .