Trying a Royal Gramma Harem

[NexDog]

Have always wanted to try a Royal Gramma Harem. I tried 3 years ago and 10 of them died in QT very quickly when water quality went downhil very fast. Going to be more careful this time. Also going to use Cupramine rather than my normal hypo as I suspect Royal Grammas don't handle hypo well. So I got 7 this time (lucky 7 I hope).

http://japanreef.com/images/qt/Royal-Grammas-1.jpg

http://japanreef.com/images/qt/Royal-Grammas-2.jpg

http://japanreef.com/images/qt/Royal-Grammas-3.jpg

QT setup is:

50 Gallon
HOB Remora Pro
UV Steriliser (will have to turn off)
220w Heater
Maxi-Jets
Live rock and sponges
Net covered top.

Will update on my progress. Also posted in my Large Tanks thread (http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=831638&goto=newpost).

[discocarp]

I've been wavering between trying these, a group of assessors, or a group of blackcaps. I'm very interested to see how this turns out!

[NexDog]

Group of yellow/gold assessors would be cool but the price wouldn't be. :D

I also have a lot of yellow in the tank (Foxface pair, Yellow tang pus yellow on the Emp, Heni etc) so I wanted to inject some more purple. Group of Blackcaps would be awesome though - but again, twice the price of Royal Grammas.

[tangers]

nexdog, do you have to buy these as a harem? or can you just buy them in multiples and they will harem up?

[discocarp]

Group of yellow/gold assessors would be cool but the price wouldn't be. :D

I also have a lot of yellow in the tank (Foxface pair, Yellow tang pus yellow on the Emp, Heni etc) so I wanted to inject some more purple. Group of Blackcaps would be awesome though - but again, twice the price of Royal Grammas.

Yes I know! The price is why I haven't moved on any of them, even the grammas haha!

[discocarp]

(double post)

[kentrob11]

I did several in a 240 years ago and they did great...I have seen them hanging out together under rock ledges while snorkeling before...Very cool!

[TampaReefer79]

This is definitley cool, I want to try this in my new tank. How many do you think can co-exist peacefully in a 600'ish gallon tank with lots of live rock? (8'x4')

[NexDog]

nexdog, do you have to buy these as a harem? or can you just buy them in multiples and they will harem up?
You can buy from multiple places. As long as they all go in at the same time you should be good. Quarantining for 4-6 weeks is best for any fish you are trying to pair/group. Not only are you treating for disease and problems it gives the fish time to bond or form the group hierarchy.

[NexDog]

This is definitley cool, I want to try this in my new tank. How many do you think can co-exist peacefully in a 600'ish gallon tank with lots of live rock? (8'x4')
Pretty much as many as you want. These fish congregate in groups of hundreds on natural reefs. The only thing stopping you from putting 50 Royal Grammas in a 600g is the fact that most people like to keep a variety of different fish. But if you wanted 20, it would work. I was going to do 10 again this time but I was worried about the bioload on the QT.

[flameangel88]

Congrat on the harem! I was looking at Black Cap recently and came across a post where its possible to add 2 Black Caps and 6 Royal Grammas at the same time. I'm thinking about doing it down the road in a 125.

[StripestheEel]

Yes I know! The price is why I haven't moved on any of them, even the grammas haha!

You're complaining about royal gramma and black cap gramma pricing and you live in the states :hammer: geez, if only us aussies had to deal with your pain. hahaha.

$100 for royals and $240 black caps here.

I tried breeding them last year and lost all my broodstock within 1 week. Water was fine, possibly an internal parasite??

Had 5 pairs of royals and 1 pair of blackcaps.

[NexDog]

Has there been a lot of success breeding Royal Grammas then? In AUD they are around $30 here so not too bad.

[massman]

Has there been a lot of success breeding Royal Grammas then? In AUD they are around $30 here so not too bad.

Zero success AFAIK

[michealprater]

I seen a harem at Shedd Aquarium and I thought about doing it also. Very cool. Cant wait to see updates.

[rssjsb]

You can buy from multiple places. As long as they all go in at the same time you should be good. Quarantining for 4-6 weeks is best for any fish you are trying to pair/group. Not only are you treating for disease and problems it gives the fish time to bond or form the group hierarchy.How big would the QT have to be to do this?

[philter4]

I have done it in the past, I collected about 20 with some black caps the last time I dove the Bahamas, that was years ago, but still, in the ocean you see royals as shallow as 15 feet, and always in big groups around ledges and holes, as you get to 100 ft plus there starts to be some black caps mixed in and the deeper you go the more black caps and less royals there are, if you go really deep there is a third species that shows up, but I have never seen it in person.

I kept about 6 royals and 2 black caps in a 40 for almost a year until hurricane Katrina knocked power out for 17 days, then less then a week after the power was on Wilma struck us on the same path again losing power for an extended time, and I lost a lot of animals in that month.

I wish you lots of luck while they are in qt, but once they are in the main tank there will be no real trouble and it will be a fantastic display.

[WuHT]

whats up with all the uneaten pellets ??

I personally dont feed QT'd fish a high volume early on (unless i'ts obvious they are eating everything) just to keep the water with minimal waste.

[NexDog]

How big would the QT have to be to do this?
I would do 20 Grammas in a 90 (maybe). 120 would be best.

[NexDog]

whats up with all the uneaten pellets ??

I personally dont feed QT'd fish a high volume early on (unless i'ts obvious they are eating everything) just to keep the water with minimal waste.
I always feed often and early. End of every day I just siphon out the uneaten stuff. Sticking to that routine maintains quality.

[NexDog]

A couple of the Royal Grammas have cotton mouth. One has it pretty bad. :(

I have Pimafix but I wonder if iot would be self-defeating. If I add Pimafix I'll have to take the skimmer offline. But then again the Cupramine seems to be making the skimmer foam to the point it is almost useless.

Think I might get a separate large rubber bin and make up water with Cupramine and just do daily 5g water changes and treat with Pimafix. Any ideas?

[Chihuahua6]

I have had a harem of Grammas for a couple of years now. I have posted about it on this forum so if you do a search you'll find more to read. I have 4 of the original 5, one disappeared after moving. I plan on getting at least 8 more when I set up my 367 gal.

As for your fish I wouldn't dose the copper unless I actually saw signs of ick. I would treat for the infection because that can certainly kill them.

[NexDog]

Amanda, I always treat for Ich no matter if I see it or not. I just refuse the take the risk and it has paid off although I've had my fair share of QT losses.

I will keep up the Cupramine. I dosed Paraguard but I think it got skimmed out as the skimmer cup was Paraguard coloured. Will try Pimafix from tomorrow. I have another Fungus medicine arriving tomorrow too so I'm hoping I can see these little guys through. To be honest, if I can get 5 through I'll be happy but obviously aiming for more. I might even add another group later in the year as I love these fish.

[the_rider]

I have 3 in my setup right now that form a trio. All different size (XL, M, S) and don't see any agression. Have them for around 2 month now.

http://i512.photobucket.com/albums/t321/oO_ZaNe_Oo/DSC_0014RESIZED-3.jpg

[the_rider]

Double

[Bax]

Best of luck with the harem Nextdog

FWIW, I usually donlt skim when using cupramine in the QT, I'll treat with cupe first, then start skimming after a week or so. The Permafix and Melafix will foam out a skimmer as well. I think it's worth not skimming while treating with these early on, just use a air stone and aerate like crazy, it'll still foam but not get skimmed out. Then, as you mentioned above, do WCs with treated water when not skimming. Once I start skimming, I keep doing small WCs with untreated water and add carbon & UV to the mix as well.

[kentrob11]

Looking forward to seeing pics...

[NexDog]

Yah, just figured out the skimmer was skimming out Cupramine. I've hit the QT with another half dose to bring copper level up.

I'm very worried about not skimming as the full treatment is 3 weeks. Going to do a 20% water change (10g) twice a week (Wednesday/Sunday). Do you think this will be enough to keep up water quality?

[massman]

Yah, just figured out the skimmer was skimming out Cupramine. I've hit the QT with another half dose to bring copper level up.

I'm very worried about not skimming as the full treatment is 3 weeks. Going to do a 20% water change (10g) twice a week (Wednesday/Sunday). Do you think this will be enough to keep up water quality?

This should be fine.
Make sure you siphon up any uneaten food.
Ammonia is the big killer in QT.
Stick an ammonia alert on the front panel for piece of mind.

[NexDog]

I'm only feeding brine and mysis and it doesn't exactly sink. Going to feed very little from now.

Only two of the Royal Grammas are out and about since upping the dose. The rest are buried in holes in the LR. Fingers crossed.

[rkb]

very cool- tagging along! I have been wanting to do a non photosynthetic tank that featured gorgonias and other deepwater inverts in a cave/ledge like setting and a harem of RGs would look great.

[NexDog]

I agree, that would look fantastic. I have definitely seen different types of Royal Grammas too with variations in the darkness of the colour purple. The ones I have at the moment seem to be a lighter purple than more darker ones I've had in teh past (or maybe I'm just tripping).

So yesterday I re-dosed Cupramine, did the 20% water change and re-dosed Pimafix. After that I only saw 2 RGs out and about but today there are 5 swimming around in plain sight.

I also added an air-stone (thanks for the reminder Baxxy baby :D). I used to do this but forgot about it.

[NexDog]

Ack, minus one Royal Gramma today. I believe it was the one with the worstcase of Cotton Mouth.

Have another with pop eye in both eyes that doesn't look good (blind).

Both are indicators of poor water quality but the water was straight out the DT (90% of it and I have some LR in there and sponges). Nitrates not that high. Maybe I'll add more LR the next time round to help with biofilter.

I guess this first week will be critical. Whatever makes it to Monday should make it the full 3 weeks. Hoping for 5. Depending on how this works out I might add another group later in the year.

[NexDog]

End of week 1 for this group. The remaining 5 look healthy and are eating despite the Cupramine. Here is a video of the QT:

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And the 340g:

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[Reeefer]

Cool idea. They are going to be a beautiful addition to that DT. Nice fish, tank, and music. Good luck with them!

[NexDog]

End of week 2 Cupramine treatment. The 5 remaining Royal Grammas are doing well and eating like pigs despite the treatment. I'm sticking to a rigid 10g water change every Sunday and Wednesday. When I change the water I add 2.5ml of Cupramine so I'm redosing at 0.6mg/l to take into account any copper absorption from the LR. Dosing Pimafix with each WC too. One of the fish has a badly scarred head from some kind of fungal infection but seems to be clearing up slowly. It was the least active fish but is out and about and eating now.

[NexDog]

The 5 Royal Grammas went in after lights out yesterday. Didn't see any of them at all today which I guess is kind of expected. Fingers crossed I'll see them again. :p

[Madfronter]

looking forward to hearing how they do in there.

[michealprater]

Need DT pics when they come out!

[NexDog]

Halfway through the second day and still not seen them. I guess they are basslets and a bit timid.........

Newsflash, i just saw one. :p

[NexDog]

All 5 Royal Grammas spotted at this morning's feeding. :celeb1::dance::bum:

They are spread out over the tank though. Saw one on the left, 2 in center, 2 on the right.

[sassyfrassy]

Would it be possible to have 3 in a 65g? Does one become a male or are they sexed at birth?

[NexDog]

Like many (all?) basslets they are born female and change to a male when ready to mate. I don't believe one won't become male if another male is present (like Anthia) so you can have multiple males which can cause problems. I'm not sure your tank will provide enough space if agression becomes an issue. But I QT'd mine in a similar sized tank without too many issues. If you really like the fish and want to try it I think you should though. :)

[discocarp]

It will be interesting to see if they group up eventually.

[Pallobi]

this is very cool :D

[Beaun]

Like many (all?) basslets they are born female and change to a male when ready to mate.

Chalk bass', not the same genus as grammas but still a basslet, are simultaneous hermaphrodites; meaning, if you add two, you have a pair.

[Madfronter]

How is the harem?

[NexDog]

Doing really well. Quite a few hang out together and they all seem to live towards the top of the rockwork in the center. All 5 alive last I checked. :)

[karnivorous]

congrats on the harem. i think its cool when people try to recreate what we see in nature. good work

[Amazon4]

I have a lonely royal gramma bachelor who's made a nice nest in our 180. Do you think I could safely add another and they'd get along? We've had this fish for close to three years and has always been solo. But within the last year it decided to build a big burrow/nest. I feel like it needs some company! lol

[Madfronter]

I'm glad they are all doing well in your tank so far. Any new pics of them?

[NexDog]

@Amazon4 - Hard to say really. An established Royal Gramma might act aggressively to newcomers.

@Madfronter - Will see what I can do. One of my Tunze stream pumps hasn't been working for a few weeks so there has been less flow in the tank. Now I have fixed it and the flow has been ramped up the RGs are out a lot less.

[SMOOTHIE]

Great job! I watched both videos and that is one of the fattest powder blues I have ever seen. Way to go! What are you feeding and how often?

[NexDog]

I have 25 fish in there and I mix up a cube of frozen mysis, cube of frozen brine, pinch of Spirulina, pinch of Prime Reef, pinch Formula Two flake and pinch of Spectrum pellet every day. I feed half in teh morning and half at night with Tunzes off. So the fish are getting food every 12 hours (8am and 8pm approx). Also feed nori on a clip about twice a week or when I can remember (or be bothered).

[SMOOTHIE]

Thanks!

[Idle Moor]

Just added 2 small RG's to my 135 a couple of days ago. They were both out feeding immediately. They are slowly expanding their roaming range from the central large rock formation, which is incredibly honeycombed with holes of the perfect size for them. The fish store guy looked at me like I was crazy for putting 2 in the same tank, but I had read Scott Michael and it sounded possible. So far they seem to hang together much more than they need to if they were trying to establish individual territories. But there is still some aggression, especially if one gets too close to the other when one is in a hole (although neither seem to have claimed any particular hole as their own beyond the one they are in at the time). Not sure where this will lead but it is beautiful to see them swimming together and their interaction is fascinating, as long as it stays relatively peaceful. It would be nice if they turned into a pair, but I am generally planning to add a third, larger individual at some point, per Michael's recommendation. I would have added all three together, but two were all I could find.

[NexDog]

Pretty sure I'm down to 4 now. Have only seen 4 out and about at feeding time the last 3 days.

[ryanuuy]

i have a 120g DT and i would like to try out a harem after reading this thread!

so far the fishes i have planned are a purple tang, mystery wrasse, hawaiian flame wrasse, a couple of green chromis and the RGs.

if i add 5 of them, would they automatically form a harem?

[NexDog]

No. :)

My 5 became 4 and I think it might even become 3. One is getting harrassed pretty badly and doesn't look so good.

[ryanuuy]

oh so i guess adding just 3 wouldnt help either now would it? haha

[kawicivic]

interesting idea as RGs are one of my favorite fish but never heard of anyone keeping in groups. Tagging along for updates as time goes on

[Idle Moor]

How is it going with the grammas? My two didn't make it, but I am trying again as of last Saturday. Got three in a good size range of about 1.25-2.5". There were four in the stores display tank with no aggression whatsoever. The three I got are hanging together fine in my tank also with no aggression.

I got them from one of the more reputable LFS's in the area this time. They were quarantined and treated with copper already. I've never gotten a sick fish from this guy. They cost more than average tho at $25 each.

Anyone having success here?

[NexDog]

Haven't seen the 4th for a long time so I guess it's gone. Of the final 3 there is no aggression but 2 definitely seem to be pairing and one is a loner.

I'm going to try again next year as 3 is definitely not enough. I'd love yto have about 7 or so.

[Idle Moor]

For a 340g 7 would be great. I have a 135 and I think 3 is good. Probly should have sprung for the 4th, but I haven't had great luck so far with these so I will see how it goes. My up-till-now peaceful lemonpeel who was fine in the tank with the last batch of grammas went ballistic on these and I've had to trap him out and isolate him in a corner for now. The middle gramma seemed to get the worst of it before I could catch the angel and about 2/3 of its tail is gone. The other two are ok just a bit terrorized. That stress didn't help anything I'm sure, but they are all out exploring tonight and eating well.

[Kreeger1]

I tried 13 in my 180, at the year mark the 2 that paired up killed off all the rest.

[albano]

I've got 3 RG in my 450g DT, and they've been great together, but more of a pair, plus 1...got them from Reeftopia, for $10.50 each http://reeftopia.com/marinefishdeals.html
you can see them in my tank video
<object width="480" height="385">


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[NexDog]

Awesome variety of fish. Very nice.

Yah, my 3 is more of a pair plus 1. Good info, Kreeger1. Maybe a large harem of Royal Grammas is the impossible dream.

[NexDog]

Saw the 4th one today. :D

[Idle Moor]

So far ... so good. Don't want to jinx myself tho. They are all playing well together and there doesn't seem to be any pair bonding or favoritism yet, although the middle sized one tends to somewhat more of a loner than the large and small ones. Their territories seem to be pretty fluid too although they have preferred areas - not sure if that will become more defined later. Had one or two spots of what looked like ich on the largest, but they have gone, and so far not returned. Little bit of breathe holding there.

The lemonpeel is still in isolation and seems to be ignoring the grammas now, but it's hard to tell what he will do when let loose. Without him all is peaceful and I'm reluctant to mess it up, but I will have to test it soon. The grammas are well established in the tank now and know the holes pretty well. But... hopefully I will be able to trap him again if it doesn't work out.

They are really quite gorgeous when they come together and interact as a group. I could certainly imagine paying an inordinate amount of money for one if I lived in Australia where they are uncommon.

[Idle Moor]

Oops, well there ya go. Down to 2 now. The smallest of the trio began to show a strange slightly raised buff colored spot on his flank just behind the pectoral fin maybe 5 days ago that I didn't think too much of at first as it was so hard to see I wasn't even sure it was there. It grew however to maybe an eighth of an inch, although I still couldn't see clearly what it was. I even tried taking photos so that I could blow them up to see it more closely but without success. Anyway the fish stopped eating yesterday. I had to leave for an overnight trip and couldn't do anything for him before I left, assuming I could have caught him out anyway, and when I got home this evening he was nowhere to be seen. He could be hiding, but it sounds like a downhill trip to me. If he is gone I would like to try to replace him eventually as I liked the presence and interaction of the three fish in the tank. I'm guessing some sort of external parasite was the culprit.

[NexDog]

Might be hiding. I see the 4th Royal Gramma maybe two or three times a week.

[Idle Moor]

Might be hiding. I see the 4th Royal Gramma maybe two or three times a week.

It's possible. But it's never hidden before. If it is hiding then it is probably because it is sick, and if it is sick then it will probably be dead sooner or later.

[DxSOR25]

royal gramma was the first fish ive ever purchased and probably one of my favorites in the reef hobby!

[Idle Moor]

Just an update here. Things have stabilized nicely at 2 grammas. They spend much of their time in close proximity to each other although there are occasional threat displays.

I read somewhere (Scott Michael probably) that they have unusually large mouths for planktivores, but I'm here to tell ya that they use those mouths to eat unusually large pieces of food! It used to be that the Majestic and the trigger would get the biggest chunks, but now it is often the grammas that get there first.

All is peaceful with the lemonpeel now in the sump. I introduced him back into the display one time and he behaved mostly as before, terrorizing the grammas, so I trapped him out again (stupid fish) and am not sure what to do with him now will likely give him one more chance.

[NexDog]

My harem stable at 4. Think of trying a harem of Fridmanis next. :)

Meanwhile I'm boosting my anthias population to 8.

I'm really loving my tank at the moment. :)

[csarkar001]

are the royal grammas easy to sex? when you buy them, do you always but just one male? otherwise, how would you guarantee a harem?

[mrwilson]

I got one large one and two much smaller ones, and added them all at the same time. I've had them in my 200g display for only about two months or so, but I've seen no aggression at all among them, and they all hang out together in the same area of the tank. I also have a trio of bicolor blennies in with them, which makes for kind of a cool mix, since both species have similar color schemes (front half of fish one color, back half of fish distinctly different color). A successful experiment ... so far.