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View Full Version : Tried Ich Attack, now onto Kick-Ich


n72
04/05/2010, 10:59 PM
About 2 1/2 weeks ago, my Blue Tang, Coral Beauty and Blue Chromis had a a dozen or two spots of Ich. None of the other fish had ich. Since it was going to be impossible to remove them from the main tank and my tank has corals, I decided to use Kordon's Ich Attack to take care of the problem. I followed the instructions on the bottle and used the medication for 1 1/2 weeks. During this time, I had turned the skimmer off and also attached a UV Sterilizer to the tank, hoping to rid the water of all the Ich. After a few days, all the fish that had spots, showed no signs of Ich. About a week later, every single fish in the tank had Ich. The Blue Tang has it the worst, probably several hundred white spots on it's body. Although it is covered with Ich, it still has a big appetite and readily swims to the top during feeding time.

I did some research and decided to go with Kick-Ich. I bought the 2 liter bottle since my system is 150 gallons total (tank and sump).

So far it's too early to tell, but I'll post updates of my progress.

Does anyone have any suggestions or experience with either Ich Attack or Kick-Ich? Catching all the fish out and quarantining them is out of the question. It would be nearly impossible and would mean I would have to remove every coral and rock to be able to get to them. :sad2:

LargeAngels
04/06/2010, 08:13 AM
A UV should never be run with Medication. Always turn UV off when medicating. Kick ich, Rid ich, etc. are all a waste of time and money. There is nothing that has been proven to work that is Reef Safe.QT with hypo or copper in a seperate tank and allow main tank to be fishless for 6 weeks is the only way to really rid a tank of ich.

It is easier to remove fish if you drain half the water in the tank. Or try and catch them while they are sleeping at night.

jenglish
04/06/2010, 08:21 AM
If you cannot remove the fish, you cannot get rid of the ich. Depending on your coral load it may be easier to move them (and all other inverts) and do hyposalinity in your display.

LargeAngels
04/06/2010, 08:31 AM
I wouldn't hypo the display unless ALL rock and sand are also removed cause hypo will kill off all things living in the rock/sand and cause a huge ammonia spike which may kill the fish.

larry joe
04/06/2010, 09:27 PM
Hey N72 Im Larry and I feel your pain.Im in a strange way, lucky to be moving to a new house in a couple weeks.My Hippo Tang has ICK and in a 140 gal tank with 90 lbs of rock and corals and critters its not easy to catch her.If she stays healthy til the move she will not be acclimated to my display tank,instead she will spend two weeks in a QT.Also a .possibility is simply give her a freshwater dip , then place her in display at new house.I know from experience the FWD works..If however I wake up tomorrow morning and she looks worse then Ive decided to do a 20 gal water change,putting old water in my waterchange RUBBERMAID cans then methodically pulling out 1 piece at a time (LR) and putting my LR in old water to keep wet until little Dori has nowhere to hide.Then out she comes and its bathtime,thats right I said bathtime .Thanks for helping me make up my mind.The QT may work for other people with other fish but Ive tried and had great success with a FWD.So there it is man , youre not alone!

corey c
04/06/2010, 09:40 PM
im tagging along with this one. let us know how the kick ick works.

LargeAngels
04/07/2010, 06:46 AM
but Ive tried and had great success with a FWD.So there it is man , youre not alone!

If freshwater dips works then you have velvet and not ich. Freshwater dips don't work for ich, only velvet.

reefoctopus
04/07/2010, 08:41 AM
will putting cupramine on the displa tank be ok? i have no corals though

LargeAngels
04/07/2010, 08:45 AM
I would NOT put Cupramine in the display tank if you have rock and/or sand. Any living organisms in the rock or sand will be killed (causing an ammonia spike and possibly killing all fish) and the rock/sand will absorb Cupramine so you will be having to continuously add Cupramine until absorbtion has stabilized.

Jdbrine
04/07/2010, 08:56 AM
I would NOT put Cupramine in the display tank if you have rock and/or sand. Any living organisms in the rock or sand will be killed (causing an ammonia spike and possibly killing all fish) and the rock/sand will absorb Cupramine so you will be having to continuously add Cupramine until absorbtion has stabilized.

+1.....Never add copper to a tank containing live sand and LR... That will lead to disaster!... your best bet IMO is to set you up a QT... I know this is a hassle but it is the only way. Add some pieces of pvc for the fish to hide in, just dont add anything that could absorb any medication. QT for 5-6 weeks.

WDLV
04/07/2010, 09:27 AM
IME, kick ick does actually work on some level. I used it years ago with success. That said, today I am of the opinion that it's snake oil and would not trust it under any circumstance.

I would not hypo any tank with inverts. Snails and hermits will die which may or may not be too big a bioload for your tank to handle. Corals don't particularly like it either. I did try it once and only saw a slight bleaching until I raised the SG level too fast a week or so later.

Hypo can kill ick but some strains are resistant. This is my current regamin. It's designed for clowns but I can adapt it for larger fish by simply switching to a larger tank.
It's not the only way to do it but it has worked for me.
Whatever regamin you decide to use, stick with the plan from start to finish and to not switch method mid course. Good luck.

Disease Prevention
The three most important things I know on this subject are:
1. Quarrantine
2. Quarrantine
3. Quarrantine

Supplies for QTs
- 10 gallon aquarium
- Power Filter rated for 40-50 gallons
- 50W heater
- Glass thermometer with suction cup
- Two 6" ceramic tiles or one 6" flower pot (for shelter)
- 50 gallon salt mix
- Two 5 gallon buckets (one for clean water one for dirty or medicated water)
- Glass canopy or 1 sheet of "eggcrate" lighting grid
- 1 pair small diaginal cutting pliars (for cutting the eggcrate to size.)

Optional items
- Aquarium stand
- strip light fixture (PCF if you plan to keep corals/anemones)
- Pre-Fabricated water syphon or 1/2" clear tubing from home depot.

Recommended Medications
- 1 bottle of Kordon's Formalin III
- 1 bottle of Cupramine
- 1 bottle of Amquell

Set up the system and allow it to run for at least 24 hours so the temperature can stabilize. If temp adjustments are needed, adjust to the thermometer; not the heater dial.
When you are ready to add the fish, it is generally accepted practice to float the bag for 15 minutes to allow the temps to stabilize. Drain 50% of the water into a waste water bucket and refill the volume you took out with water from the QT. You should repeat this process two or more times. When you are ready to add the fish, dump almost all the water into the waste water bucket and pour the fish into the QT. I avoid using nets wherever possible to avoid scraping or rubbing off slime and scales. These kinds of minor damage can make fish more succeptable to infection.

I usually set the tank temp for 75-78 degrees F unless it's a specamin like A. latezonatus that requires cooler temps.

If you have a particularly fragile fish like A. chrysopterus or A. nigripes, I recommend setting the specific gravity to 1.009 in advance. Use a refractometer. Swing arm hydrometers can be grossly innacurate. Hypo-salinity will kill many of the paracites that live on our fish. It's referred to as osmotic shock therapy. As the title suggests, you want to shock the organisms you are trying to kill with a sudden change in osmotic pressure so they literally explode. This is not the case when returning to regular salinity. This should be done of the course of a few days. To do this I like to allow the QT to evaporate naturally. Instead of using fresh makeup water to keep it at the same SG I add saltwater to slowly bring the salinity back up.

Quarrantine should be performed for a minimum of one month after purchase or the last symptom of disease. Whichever is longer. I usually end up quarrantining fish for 90 days. 30 for inverts.

*Invertebrates and some scale-less fishes will not survive hyposalinity.

With clowns, the diseases you will want to be most cautious of are Brooklynella, Amyloodinium and Ick (in that order.) With fish that I know to be succeptable to brook or amyloo I automatically add Formalin III to the system. Otherwise, I look at their breathing, behavior and skin (in that order) a couple times each day. The hypo-salinity may well knock out any of these three diseases before they have a chance to take hold. However, I highly recommend having the above recommended meds on hand. If the hypo doesn't knock it out, you probably have a very aggressive case on your hands and time is critical.

*Please do not blame me if you loose fish with these methods. These methods have greatly improved survival rates of my fish but they're not 100% effective. It takes experience to properly diagnose diseases and even more experience to diagnose them early. ~



Common Disease Treatment




Compliments of MarinaP on Reef Central I have a new regamin for treatment of certain diseases. I have not tried this in the exact sequence mentioned but it does fall in line with what I believe to be best practices. I have modified her regamin slightly to fit my own preferences.

*Wear gloves and eye protection whenever handling formalin or bleach.
*Do not use activated carbon/charcoal while medicating.




For Amyloodinium or Ick:

*For all procedures: Use water that has a specific gravity (SG) of 1.009
**Do not mix medications.
***Be sure that temperature is the same in all holding vessels.

Day One
1. Slowly lower SG to 1.009
2. Perform a formalin dip per directions on the bottle.
3. Remove fish from formalin dip and place in an unused quarrantine tank that has been treated with cupramine per the recommendations on the bottle.
4. Set up a second quarrantine tank (QT) with the same SG and temperature of water as the first QT.

Day Two
1. Place fish in second quarrantine tank that has been treated with cupramine per the recommendations on the bottle.
2. Clean first quarrantine tank and all related components with a 10% bleach soln then set it back up. It is OK to soak the filter pad in bleach soln then rinse thoroughly before re-use if desired.

*Repeat process for days three through six.

Day Seven
1. If there are no further external symptoms, add fish to a quarrantine tank with a SG of 1.009 with no medications for at least 28 days.
2. Add a fresh filter cartridge with carbon to the filter.
3. Perform 20% water changes and or use Amquell as directed.
4. It is OK to use Prazi-Pro as directed after the first week as a prophylactic treatment or if internal paracites are suspected.
*Remember to discard activated carbon while in use.

For Brooklynella
- Follow the same regamin but substitute a formalin bath between formalin dips instead of using cupramine. ~

larry joe
04/07/2010, 10:29 AM
OK so my QT is a 10 gal with a emperor 400.I have the heater and a shelter for Dori.Do I put any live sand?Any info on the water perameters I should know?My QT has been set up for 2 Mos. and all I do is add make up water.

WDLV
04/07/2010, 10:40 AM
OK so my QT is a 10 gal with a emperor 400.I have the heater and a shelter for Dori.
This is not an acceptable quarrantine tank size for a tang that is more than about 2" long.

Do I put any live sand?
Absolutely no sand or other coral based decor should be in the QT. It absorbs and holds medications. Flower pots, ceramic tiles, plastic plants or other FW type decorations are fine for hiding places.

Any info on the water perameters I should know?
Hypo SG should be 1.009 and normal is 1.021 - 1.025. Watch ammonia (Amquel helps.) Temps around 78 are good. Some go higher to speed the life cycle of the disease. I like to go low because it not only slows the progression of the disease it relaxes the fish and slows it's oxygen demand. This makes it less stressed and in turn less desirable as a host for re-infestation.

My QT has been set up for 2 Mos. and all I do is add make up water.
That's fine if your ammonia, nitrite and nitrate are fine. I take it that there's nothing in there??? If so, I would not leave a QT just sitting there. It's a waste of electricity, filter media and becomes a temptation to turn it into another display.



Also, sorry to be the one to tell you this but a QT should only be used to treat one fish or a mated pair of fish at a time. It is not suitable for bioloads higher than that.

jenglish
04/07/2010, 06:47 PM
I wouldn't hypo the display unless ALL rock and sand are also removed cause hypo will kill off all things living in the rock/sand and cause a huge ammonia spike which may kill the fish.

The amount of bioload in most tanks after you remove the decent sized inverts is pretty small. You will see an ammonia spike but with proper changing of salinity more bacteria survives than most would think. This bacteria can process the ammonia. It is certainly something to watch. But compared to treating a display with copper or some voodoo organic it can be the best option available IMO.

n72
04/10/2010, 10:35 PM
Thank you all for your suggestions and input. Since I already started the Kick-Ich medication in the display tank, I'm going to continue with it and post my experience for others to read and make their own decisions should they get into the same situation I'm in.

n72
04/10/2010, 10:47 PM
UPDATE

Day 1

The day after I added the first dose of Kick-Ich to the display tank, I did not see much relief in the tank. In fact, both Perculas are now covered in Ich. I guess it was bound to happen sooner or later since most of the other fish have it. I was beginning to get worried that they would all die before I could finish the treatment.

Day 2

I noticed most of the spots on the Blue Tang had fallen off. It's skin now has light brown blotches. Looks to be like open wounds. It doesn not come to the top to feed. It hides in the rocks and seems scared. My Chromises have fewer spots and my Perculas are still covered with Ich. They seem to be breathing more rapidly than normal.

I cam home from work only to find a group of hermit crabs finishing of one of the Perculas that had given in to the disease. The only recognizable piece of it was the orange and black tail. Everything had been eaten by the cleaning crew. (Sad, but pretty impressive.)

n72
04/10/2010, 10:55 PM
Oops, I forgot to mention that all the coral and invertebrates seem to be ok. So far the medication has not visibly affected any of them. I'm keeping my fingers cross that I won't lose any of it, like the bottle claims. I don't have anything terribly expensive (Xenia, Zoos, Mushrooms, etc.), but it would suck if I lost them after spending $45 on medication that claims to be reef safe.

larry joe
04/11/2010, 09:50 PM
My Hippo Tang is 2 in long so I think she will be ok in the QT and I want to do this but I have a couple questions.1-Do I have to hypo?Cant I just QT with cupramine and skip the hypo?2-What about my healthy fish in the display?If they dont get ICK while mytang is QTd does that mean my tank is ICK free?

n72
04/11/2010, 10:42 PM
I would think that using Cupramine and doing hypo would be pretty stressful on a smaller Hippo Tang. They seem to get stressed easily. Any thoughts from the more experienced reefers?

WDLV
04/12/2010, 04:57 AM
My Hippo Tang is 2 in long so I think she will be ok in the QT and I want to do this but I have a couple questions.1-Do I have to hypo?Cant I just QT with cupramine and skip the hypo?2-What about my healthy fish in the display?If they dont get ICK while mytang is QTd does that mean my tank is ICK free?

1. Sure. If you're more comfortable doing it with just the cupramine, that's what you should do.
2. No. Ick can attach itself to your fish's gills and be in a bit of a dormant state that you may not be able to see. As long as there are fish in that display that have not been treated and the tank has not remained fallow, you should assume that ick still resides.

Chris27
04/12/2010, 07:14 AM
I would think that using Cupramine and doing hypo would be pretty stressful on a smaller Hippo Tang. They seem to get stressed easily. Any thoughts from the more experienced reefers?

Copper or Hypo (not both) will work just fine for a blue tang. The only reason we say they get stressed easily is because they always seem to have Crypt. Following a proper QT period they are very healthy fish, and a great inhabitant. Tangs are especially susceptible to Crypt since they don't have scales or a heavy slimecoat, the parasite likes to burrow into the skin and gills of the fish, and it's just that much easier on a tang.

WDLV
04/12/2010, 08:00 AM
I more or less agree with that statement except to say that they do have scales but they're smaller than those of many other fish the same size. If you ever prepare one to eat one you'll know that. :lol2:

n72
04/12/2010, 10:16 AM
I more or less agree with that statement except to say that they do have scales but they're smaller than those of many other fish the same size. If you ever prepare one to eat one you'll know that. :lol2:

That's one expensive meal. :spin2:

larry joe
04/12/2010, 11:29 AM
Hey n72,I stumbled on to a ICK med called NO SICK FISH and there were great reviews on it so I ordered it.Im gonna try it.They all said they treated in their main tank and the ICK never returned...Ill keep you and all others interested informed..

n72
04/12/2010, 11:32 AM
Hey n72,I stumbled on to a ICK med called NO SICK FISH and there were great reviews on it so I ordered it.Im gonna try it.They all said they treated in their main tank and the ICK never returned...Ill keep you and all others interested informed..

Thank! Please do.

LPS_addict
04/12/2010, 11:41 AM
I am surprised to see no one has suggested the use of foods with garlic in them. I use garlic enhanced foods and make sure I feed real well and offer variety. I battled ich for three or four days in my main tank with my Achilles tang. I didn't do anything but feed well and make sure there was nothing causing it stress and gone haven't seen a sign for about three months. just my 2cents Jay

returnofsid
04/12/2010, 12:11 PM
Garlic has absolutely NO beneficial properties, for Marine Fish AND has been shown to cause liver damage.
While garlic has been shown to have immunity boosting properties, among Freshwater Fish, it has been shown to NOT have the same ability among Marine Fish. Studies have shown that garlic "may" inhibit the parasites ability to find fish, by smell, in Marine fish, so "might" result in a reduced ability to parasitize. Garlic is also thought to "possibly" increase a Marine Fish's appetite, keeping the fish healthy and able to "fight off" Ich, but even that is only anecdotal and hasn't been reproduced, scientifically, in many studies. Garlic HAS been shown to cause liver damage, among Marine Fish.

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.php
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/feb2004/mini4.htm
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-10/sp/index.php

No medication that's reef safe will kill Ich. If it kills Ich, it isn't reef safe. If it reef safe, it's not strong enough to kill Ich.

sporto0
04/12/2010, 03:15 PM
you have to make a decision, fish or corals, i suggest u do not medicate a reef, if they claim its invert safe, it will not work, if you don't have an established tank to use as a hospital tank, moving them in a stressed condition would kill them almost for sure. copper is the only way i have been able to actually kill ich, copper would destroy your corals, smaller inverts such as copods and mysis shrimp eventually make a comeback. i have a reef tank and an achilles tang who has had ich for over a year, not kidding, i put a neon goby and cleaner shrimp in with him, he uses them both daily and it has been manageable, sometimes worse than others but never life threatening. your situation however will get worse because you have more fish and the ich will continue to multiply to infinity, so i believe you will eventually reach a critical point. I know you don't want to hear this but, buy some storage tubs, fill them with new water, remove your rock and corals and put them in tubs for a couple of weeks, it won't kill them without your big lights for a while, use a flo with actinic and day combo, also dont forget circulation. copper the crap out of your fish, they can hack twice the reccomended dose (from experience 19yrs of it) then don't ever intro a new fish without precautions. it works trust me.

4adam12
04/12/2010, 08:08 PM
Kick Ich is crap! I lost three fish to ich when I was using the stuff. There are a couple of really good articles by Steven Pro in the newbie section under New-first time on RC look here for answers sticky called Marine Ich, Parts 1 and 2 and Synopsis of Ich Treatment Method. I had a couple of spare 20s and did the tank transfer method using a cup instead of a net. I was under the impression from talking to some local folks that you always have ich and stress brings on the spots but after reading the articles and doing the transfers I fully agree that it is a bug that can be gotten rid of with a little work. It is very important that the tank be left fallow for at least 6 weeks though with whatever treatment you do. Best of luck to you.

n72
04/14/2010, 06:27 PM
UPDATE

Day 1

The day after I added the first dose of Kick-Ich to the display tank, I did not see much relief in the tank. In fact, both Perculas are now covered in Ich. I guess it was bound to happen sooner or later since most of the other fish have it. I was beginning to get worried that they would all die before I could finish the treatment.

Day 2

I noticed most of the spots on the Blue Tang had fallen off. It's skin now has light brown blotches. Looks to be like open wounds. It doesn not come to the top to feed. It hides in the rocks and seems scared. My Chromises have fewer spots and my Perculas are still covered with Ich. They seem to be breathing more rapidly than normal.

I cam home from work only to find a group of hermit crabs finishing of one of the Perculas that had given in to the disease. The only recognizable piece of it was the orange and black tail. Everything had been eaten by the cleaning crew. (Sad, but pretty impressive.)

Day 3

Blue Tang is still covered with small brown blotches. Looks to be more than the day before. Most of the other fish do not show signs of Ich. The Percula has about 5 white spots on it's pectoral fins. (3 on the left side and two on the right side) All invertebrates seem to be fine and so are the corals.

Day 4

The Blue Tang looks 1000% better. All the brown blotches have almost completely disappeared. However the blotches between the eyes and mouth have not gone away. The open sores have healed a lot. It's still noticeable that there are some skin defect, but the blue is coming back. All the other fish look healthy and Ich free, even the Percula. There is one dead blue legged hermit crab at the bottom of the tank. It is out of it's shell. I don't think it's the medication. My guess is one of his buddies wanted his shell and fought him for it? I have at least a dozen empty shells in the tank, but I guess that didn't help. All corals seem to be ok, They are open as usual, nothing different about them.

shawna1972
04/15/2010, 12:11 AM
Only 3 "proven" methods for Ich
1-"Hypo",
2-medications such as "copper or formalin" or

3-The other method "Non medicated" "safe" method is the tank transfer method. < have not seen this method brought up.

WDLV
04/15/2010, 07:10 AM
FWIW, Kick Ick and other "reef safe" remedies seem to boil down to a stress reduction strategy. They probably have little more medicinal power than products like Stress Coat and other water conditioners. They may work and they may not.
When comparing different fish I believe that tangs are both among the most succeptable to ick as well as being among the most likely to survive it.
As such, if you're treating tangs with a product like kick ick, you might have better success than you would with other species. If the spots on the tang look like little open sores you might also be dealing with lateral line errosion; which tangs (hippos in particular) are very succeptable to.
I more or less agree with the previous post in that these reef safe remedies have a terrible track record. If you care about your animals you will consider separating, quarrantining and medicating them properly with hyposalinity and/or copper.
I don't say any of this to be mean, I only say this because I've made the mistakes you're making and would prefer to see you succeed.

reefcrazyme
04/15/2010, 07:26 AM
Ruby's reef kick-ich actually works from my experience. when i started my 75g tank 5 years ago i bought some hippos and a purple tang.
i noticed also that they had got the ich attached to them after a few days and it was getting worse. Someone advised me to get ruby's reef kick-ich since it doesn't have copper in it and i could just dose it in the tank directly for a few days.
It's all reef safe and after about a week of dosing the tank the ich were all gone.
The only negative side is that i think kick-ich is a little pricey. i don't know how much they cost now since i haven't used it in a while after that first episode and my fish are all doing good right now and so are my corals. The corals didn't even get affected by it. Shrimps, crabs, snails and RBT are all healthy. Hope this helps you.

Chris27
04/15/2010, 07:55 AM
The fact that the "ich" went away after a week was not due to the Ruby Reef - it was due to the natural progression of the parasite. The white dots on a fish just mean that the parasite is in the fish host stage, after about a week the parasite will fall from the fish and burrow in the substrate, only to emerge later.

The fact that the fish doesn't have any white spots after a week in no way means it's cured - it will come back, most times it comes back even worse then before.

Tank Aholic
04/15/2010, 06:47 PM
Just my experience with Ich and Ruby Reef. About 2 weeks ago I bought a Banner Fish from a LPS, I should have know from the appearance and the broken glass tank still sitting empty for someone to get cut on I should not have got any fish from there.

Well three days later it came down with Ick and died 2 days later. And to this date I have one blenny left. All have died from Ick. never had Ick before.

For the ones who says Ruby Reef does not work they are wrong. They took me for $50.00. Does not harm the coral, but does not help the fish. I read and re-read the directions making sure everything I did was correct due to the amount of time and money I have invested in livestock. Bought cleaner shrimp, cleaner gobies and still nothing.
I also talked to another LPS, and they suggested to do a fresh water dip. Tried it on two fish and they passed the next day. I'm not expert, but I think the stress of the fresh water just pushed them over the edge.

Now I'm waiting for the parasite to die off before anymore fish are brought into the tank.

I hope you have better luck than I did.

THP
04/19/2010, 12:41 PM
UPDATE

Day 4

The Blue Tang looks 1000% better. All the brown blotches have almost completely disappeared. However the blotches between the eyes and mouth have not gone away. The open sores have healed a lot. It's still noticeable that there are some skin defect, but the blue is coming back. All the other fish look healthy and Ich free, even the Percula. There is one dead blue legged hermit crab at the bottom of the tank. It is out of it's shell. I don't think it's the medication. My guess is one of his buddies wanted his shell and fought him for it? I have at least a dozen empty shells in the tank, but I guess that didn't help. All corals seem to be ok, They are open as usual, nothing different about them.

I'm not trying to be an arse, just wondering how the fish are looking now. I have a bottle of ich attack. No corals as of yet but have the usual clean up crew of inverts and of course, a few fish with ich and others without.

Roggio
12/23/2011, 12:28 AM
Yeah, an update would have been nice...........

MrTuskfish
12/23/2011, 09:27 AM
People have failed with the reef-safe ich "cures" are posted frequently on our forum. They simply don't work. IMO, they are responsible for many fish losses, because effective treatment is delayed. If you don't QT new fish, you pay the price.

MrTuskfish
12/23/2011, 10:47 AM
People have failed with the reef-safe ich "cures" are posted frequently on our forum. They simply don't work. IMO, they are responsible for many fish losses, because effective treatment is delayed. If you don't QT new fish, you pay the price.

Too late to edit; so I'm replying to my own post.

EDIT: I didn't mean to sound so "lecture-ish" when I posted the above drivel. IMO & IME; one of the "reef-safe' ich cures may actually work for someone. However, I have my doubts. When the rare success is reported; I think it is usually short-term (very common, even expected) or ich was mis-diagnosed (also common). Perhaps, and I admit saying this only because I'm not a scientist and to CMA, there are cases where these meds actually worked as we all wish they would. I have my doubts, but its possible----if everything worked just right, all the variables came together, the hobbyist was lucky, and all the stars and planets were properly aligned.
Very often, a hobbyist with a tank full of ich will ask about a "reef-safe'' ich med with the question that is worded something like : "Has anyone ever tried Dr. VooDoo's Miracle Reef-Safe Parasite Cure". There will be a dozen posts, by knowledgeable forum members, advising against using the stuff. Then, one member will say he used the stuff and it worked. The original poster then has the answer he was looking for, tries it, and it doesn't work. At this point, assuming his fish are still alive and healthy enough to be saved he (hopefully) comes back and tries one of the three methods that do work . Unfortunately, IME & IMO, many of these folks just don't come back and leave the hobby discouraged and frustrated. Accounts pf long-term success are very, very rare. There are people on this forum, like those who write the ich stickies, who really are experts at identifying and treating ich. I'm sure they would love to be able to write a new sticky about a reef-safe ich cure; but there just isn't one. If there was, the entire hobby would be buzzing about it (we aren't) and the writers-hobbyists would have books and magazine articles talking about it (they aren't).

enjetek
12/23/2011, 02:15 PM
1 - cupramine can be used in a fowlr tank with some inverts (my hermit crabs have not died)
2 - do NOT use hypo AND cupramine
3 - do not use cupramine with a uv sterilizer

you need to treat them for at least 4-6 weeks to be sure the parasite is killed. even at 4 i would be worried of it coming back so just be ready if it does...

MrTuskfish
12/23/2011, 03:55 PM
The biggest problem with Cupramine, or any copper, in a DT is keeping the copper at the proper level. LR & substrate will absorb (and release) enough to make precise Cu testing impossible. The releasing of copper can also continue well past the treatment period; not good for corals or inverts. A QT/HT is a vital piece of equipment, there isn't a decent substitute.

Roggio
12/25/2011, 09:22 PM
Pay the price? Kinda harsh...

I QT EVERYTHING, my fish spend time in copper then take a 15 minute fresh water bath before they make it into my tank. I also dip all corals.

I had a natural disaster at my home and way forced to slam 125 gallons worth of fish into a 65 for the time being. A week ago my power went out and my temp and ph dropped a few points. I think this mixed with the stress of overcrowding caused my Powder Blue to break out with ICH. I think one of my clowns had a blotch on his tail but, it could have been a micro bubble. After talking to a friend I purchased "Kick-Ich" from the LFS at a huge mark-up.

http://i1236.photobucket.com/albums/ff449/blatzphemy/kickick.jpg

It's been 3 days and my Powder Blue looks 100x better. The ICH hasn't spread and all is well. I turned off my skimmer like the directions said and plan on following the regiment. The marks on my Powder Blue appear to be marks from healing not ICH.

I will continue to update unlike the original author. So far so good!

MrTuskfish
12/26/2011, 11:21 AM
I hope this works for you. its very common for ich to almost disappear, then re-group and come back in huge numbers. This product has been around a long time and it seems to (sometimes) work a little at "controlling' it for a while. Usually, I don't think it does much at all and I've never heard of anyone saying they have eliminated (as opposed to "managed") ich long-term.
BTW, I don't think my "pay the price" comment was harsh at all. I doubt that you could find a decent book on our hobby that doesn't consider a QT/HT a required piece of equipment, not just something nice to have. The vast majority of threads on the disease section of our forum could have been prevented with a proper Qt regimen.

ClowningRob
12/26/2011, 10:06 PM
First of all, and I know you don't want to hear this, but you must capture and remove all you fish and put them into a quarantine tank. You can net them during feeding time possibly. I have a 135 gallon tank with live rock and I also have a 75 gallon tank set-up with some live rock and filter padding in the wet-dry filter. If you follow these steps exactly as described it should cure your fish too. First of all, I took all the fish out of the main 135 gallon tank and placed them into the 75 gallon tank and I had most of my live rock in the 135 gallon tank. Then I added cupramine to the 75 gallon tank until the concentration reached 0.35 ppm or mg/l and this is key, you must keep it at this level for 31 days which will kill off all phases of the ich parasite (you can't have any corals or inverts in the same tank with copper medicines as they will die from this). And it is imperative that you have an accurate Copper test kit, I was using a Salifert test kit which to me seems the easiest to read. Within a few days all the fish were eating like normal and I had to change 25% of the water in the 75 gallon tank about once a week while adding more cupramine to maintain the 0.35 ppm copper level. This level of copper is high enough to kill the parasite but not high enough to kill your fish, I believe once the copper level gets up to 0.50 ppm than it hurts the fish. You must keep the copper at this level for the whole 31 days. Meanwhile since there is no fish host in the main display tank with the live rock the ich will die off there as well ( I waited for at least 6 weeks before putting my fish back in the main tank).

Roggio
12/27/2011, 01:03 AM
I'm thinking you may be right. the Ich has died down a lot but has spread to my sailfin and a few other tangs. If I put my fish in fresh saltwater that I've let cure(24hrs) will it kill them? Does the Ich really die off in your DT? I'm worried about transferring the live rock to my 150.

Ugh, I was so hopeful... Suggested places to buy copper? and a test kit?

hvacman250
12/27/2011, 07:56 AM
The only thing that will TOTALLY eradicate (not control as most labels say) is copper (CopperSafe or Cupramine), hypo-salinity (1.009 on the nose), and tank transfer (which can be expensive id you have a large hospital tank)

Read all the stickies in this forum and you will understand Ich alot more.

Ich cannot survive without a fish host, so it WILL die if left in a fishless system. 8 weeks gets 99%, 9 is better, I am currently trying my best to go 10 weeks for extra insurance.

ClowningRob
12/27/2011, 08:36 AM
You can order both the cupramine and the Salifert copper test kit from "That Fish Place" in Lancaster, Pa. As far as using a freshly cured tank, in my case with the 75 gallon tank it was an established aquarium with the beneficial bacteria in my filter pads and I think that you will need a source of beneficial bacteria to control your ammonia and nitrite levels, you may have to sacrifice some of your live rock or use filter pads from your main display tank in the filter of your quarantine tank or possibly use AmQuel+ in your quarantine tank to control the ammonia, nitrite and nitrate levels. By the way, if you are using an established aquarium for quarantining, the cupramine does not seem to affect the beneficial bacteria which is why you want to use a smaller established aquarium for quarantining purposes.

MrTuskfish
12/27/2011, 01:44 PM
You can't use any of the ammonia neutralizers (Prime, Amquel, etc.) with Cupramine; they form deadly compounds. Nitrate isn't a problem for fish, I don't even test for it in a QT. Unless you have a filter sponge or pad seeded and ready; I'd plan on managing ammonia in the QT with a lot of WCs; so have a fair amount of new water made & aerating. A brute container works well. When this PITA is over; QT all new fish and never face this job again. There are some fish that don't tolerate copper at all, a fish list would help.