Undergravel Filter for a reef tank

[WISaltwaterlove]

I was wondering how effective is a undergravel filter system for a Reef tank? Is it important enough to transfer everything over to another tanks and to put in an undergravel filter system? Please I need to know how important it really is and if anyone has any comments or suggestions regarding an Undergravel Filtration system for a Reef Tank!!!

[IslandCrow]

Look into what's being called a "Reverse Underground Filter". It's basically your standard underground filter, except you run it in reverse. Paul B is the guy here who's most famous for using one. He's successfully run a reef tank with it for something like 35 years. If you're interested in knowing more, I'd send him a PM. He also has a thread in either this forum or the New to the Hobby forum on his 35 year old reef tank where he's discussed it (though you'll have to work your way through a couple thousand posts).

As far as your traditional underground filter, I don't know of anyone who's successfully run a reef tank with one.

[Navyblue]

If you have liverocks they are not necessary at all, I'd imagine it to be a "nitrate factory" like the bioballs.

[jason2459]

RUGF is the way to go if you go the way of the UGF.

I got all my info from this guy and his setup. His tank is close to finishing up it's initial cycle....
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1673282


I've been going on 8 months with a RUGF and have had 0 nitrates since the 2nd or 3rd week in I can't remember, it's in my journal.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1673282


I can say this about them 100%, the various pods love it and gives them a safe place to multiply by the bazillions.

[WISaltwaterlove]

If you have liverocks they are not necessary at all, I'd imagine it to be a "nitrate factory" like the bioballs.

what do you mean by this? Are bioballs not good to use either? I need to know what to do cause I had a Brown Diatom bloom for the longest time....now I have alage (kinda fluffy) and I have some coraline alage growing as well. I just do not want my tank looking so darn ugly....lol. Plus I need to know are T5 Lights good or no and if so how long do you leave them on for?!? My biggest thing is I want the coraline to kick in and the other alage to leave....lol.

[michealprater]

undergravel filters and bioballs were thought to be useful years ago, they are no longer considered useful because of the amount of nitrates you produce. You have an algae problem because of high nitrates and nutrients. Regular water changes, a good protien skimmer, and 2lbs of live rock per gallon is a good rule of thumb.

[WISaltwaterlove]

I have ZERO NITRITE, ZERO AMMONIA, ZERO NITRATES!! My tank is perfect. Just wanna know if people feel that RUGF is the way to go and if it is benefical cause if so I am thinking about removing everything from this one tank I wanna do it to and reset it over.

[jason2459]

I have ZERO NITRITE, ZERO AMMONIA, ZERO NITRATES!! My tank is perfect. Just wanna know if people feel that RUGF is the way to go and if it is benefical cause if so I am thinking about removing everything from this one tank I wanna do it to and reset it over.

I will tell you this. People will not think it is the way to go. You'll have to make that decision on your own though. Check out that first link I posted above.

[WISaltwaterlove]

I am reading about it. I am trying to figure out if it is the way to go or not. I know you can get like a million and one people telling you all different things and you have to make a decision that way. I just wanna know how many people use RUGF and if they highly recommend it.

[jason2459]

I am reading about it. I am trying to figure out if it is the way to go or not. I know you can get like a million and one people telling you all different things and you have to make a decision that way. I just wanna know how many people use RUGF and if they highly recommend it.

Very very very few use it. Those that do will highly recommend it. As far as I know the only two people on this site running a RUGF is PaulB and I and I'm just a newbie.

[WISaltwaterlove]

Jason ~ How long have you bring using RUGF? Have you seen any difference? Have you noticed anything bad about it?? please may I get all insight you may have on this as I would like more info. I have done alot of reading online and in many books that say UGF is a huge plus but with RUGF is it a great thing to use with LR or no?? Also why type of substrate do you use with your RUGF???

[ChadTheSpike]

Here are my thoughts on the MANY filtration methods (UGF, RUGF, bio balls, plenums, berlin method, whatever...). They all accomplish their intended function of having surface area for bacteria to convert raw wastes into something more benign (something else needs to be in place to deal with the output of the method e.g., nitrates, and perhaps this is integral to the first method e.g., LR).

ALL can be used successfully (at one point or another I have had a succsessful system will all of the filtration methods I mentioned except plenums... and that is probably just because I didnt start a new tank when they were popular, otherwise I probably would have done one).

The largest difference between them is the time they and maintenance they require, and the amount of space they take up (IMO, of course). Just make sure you know what it requires before you implement it.

UGFs tend to become clogged with detritus which creates dead spots within the substrate that can lead to problems. I, personally, would limit the amount of other stuff (rock, decorations, etc.) to stuff that can be easily moved around during cleanings to make sure that all portions of the substrate are kept in good shape.

[michealprater]

I have ZERO NITRITE, ZERO AMMONIA, ZERO NITRATES!! My tank is perfect. Just wanna know if people feel that RUGF is the way to go and if it is benefical cause if so I am thinking about removing everything from this one tank I wanna do it to and reset it over.

If you have zero nitrates and your tank is perfect, why do you want to change what you are doing? Also, if you have nuisance algae, and zero nitrate what is it living off? The correct answer is your test kit is showing 0, it is because there are plenty of nitrates in the water and the algae is using them up to grow. Same thing with phosphates. Tanks that truly have 0 nitrates do not have algae, because it cannot live with out nutrients. Like he said^ you only need to seek 2 opinions. As for the other 250,000 of us, we dont use them. ;)

[Paul B]

I know you can get like a million and one people telling you all different things and you have to make a decision that way. I just wanna know how many people use RUGF and if they highly recommend it.


I don't know about a million and one but as Jason said, out of those million people, only two of them that I know will tell you that is the way to go and I am one of them.
My reef is running for 39 years with this system.
If you find a system that can last longer with almost no maintenance, go with it.

350 crabs, 400 snails, Toadstool leather, Green Polyps and much more ~~


Did you count all of these things?

[jason2459]

Jason ~ How long have you bring using RUGF? Have you seen any difference? Have you noticed anything bad about it?? please may I get all insight you may have on this as I would like more info. I have done alot of reading online and in many books that say UGF is a huge plus but with RUGF is it a great thing to use with LR or no?? Also why type of substrate do you use with your RUGF???

I don't know much about this and that's where PaulB comes in as he's been running the same system for 39 years now. I've just started up this current tank with a RUGF just over 8 months ago. All I know is there has been 0 maintanence to it. I think if I remeber right Paul has only cleaned out under his twice and the first time being after running for ~25years. Again, check out his thread as that info is in there. I have had 0 nitrates but that could be from any number of other factors as well like having lots of live rock, a refugium, and a skimmer. My phosphates have been very low up until a recent misshap and have been slowly going back down.

Biggest positive I know about so far is that along with the refugium where the pods can multiply I found that I have a quadrazillion (yes I counted every single one of them by hand) more pods of various types this time around with the RUGF then I did before with this same setup and just the refugium. I do have a pretty heavy bioload as well with all the fish I've seen them peck at one type of pod or another. Including a mated pair of mandarins and 3 wrasses.

[michealprater]

Just to add to that, any filtration that catches waste eventually just ensures all water passes through waste. Essentially filtering your water with poo, creating the aforementioned "nitrate factory". That is why it is highly recommended the filter floss and filter socks be rinse often. There is no way to rinse a UGF or bioballs often.

[michealprater]

The title says reef. I guess I should have asked what you plan to keep in your reef. SPS?

PaulB, do you keep SPS in your aquarium?

[jason2459]

Just to add to that, any filtration that catches waste eventually just ensures all water passes through waste. Essentially filtering your water with poo, creating the aforementioned "nitrate factory". That is why it is highly recommended the filter floss and filter socks be rinse often. There is no way to rinse a UGF or bioballs often.

There is a difference between UGF and RUGF. I don't know a thing about UGF.

[ChadTheSpike]

Yes, it is the direction of water flow through it.

UGF the water flows down

RUGF the water flows up

[Paul B]

Actually the RUGF that I designed in the 70s does not have the problems associated with regular UG filters. Michael, you are correct that a system that filters water will collect waste and we don't want that. I have extensive experience with UG filters and they were a horrible choice at first but they were all we had.
This RUGF is run very slow and the water if first filtered through a sponge, canister or something else that will remove much of the detritus before it goes through the gravel.
The flow must be very slow and the water must be clean.
I did a good cleaning on mine after running non stop for 25 years.
I did not have to take the tank down or empty it for that. I did however have to remove as many rocks as I could and put everything else on the other side of the tank. Then I stirred up the gravel and sucked out the detritus with a diatom filter.
This did take me an entire day. But that happens every 25 years.
In between that, every 6 or 8 months I just stir up where I can reach with a diatom filter.
My nitrates are below 5 and I have no algae except in an algae trough that I also designed.
I have mostly LPS corals but I also have 3 SPS that are growing nicely and doing fine.
Any system that can not be maintained will fail eventually, this system can be maintained indefinately

Here is one of my SPS, I only have 3 as I like LPS better

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh270/urchsearch/IMG_0429.jpg

[michealprater]

So it pushes detrius out? How does it trap waste? Or does it trap waste? If it doesnt trap waste how is it called filtration? I am not being a smart arse, these are genuine questions. I would like to learn.

Edited_PaulB, answered without seeing the questions. LOL

[Paul B]

Yes, it is the direction of water flow through it.

UGF the water flows down

RUGF the water flows up


Yes but with a regular UG filter, you can't clean the water before it goes through the gavel and it will clog badly. (personal experience)

[WISaltwaterlove]

I don't know about a million and one but as Jason said, out of those million people, only two of them that I know will tell you that is the way to go and I am one of them.
My reef is running for 39 years with this system.
If you find a system that can last longer with almost no maintenance, go with it.



Did you count all of these things?

Not all those crabs and snails are in one tank.....those are scattered throughout the 3 tanks we have which is a 55, 75 and 90. The tank I want to change is the 90 cause I would like to try something new as this one does not have a sump only a skimmer and canister filter. I would like to see the coraline alage grow better and faster....call me impatient lol. The alage that is in there that I call "FLUFFY" is so light and loose that I can wave my hand in front of it and it will blow away or fall off. It is not on my rocks only on the back and sides of the tank.

[jason2459]

BTW, Hi Paul. :wavehand:

:lol:

[michealprater]

WI,How are your alk, mag and calc levels? All three are needed for coralline growth.

Paul, thanks for the explaination.

[Paul B]

So it pushes detrius out? How does it trap waste? Or does it trap waste? If it doesnt trap waste how is it called filtration? I am not being a smart arse, these are genuine questions. I would like to learn.


Michael, those are valad questions and being almost no one uses this system I have to explain it often.
It does not push detritus out because there is very little detritus in it. The water is filtered before it gets pushed (very slowly) under and through the gravel. UG "filters" were called filters because when they were invented in the fiftees we used them as filters then we had to stir up the tank every few months to clean them.
In those days we did not have reefs and the dead coral skeletons we used were easy to remove. After we went to reefs, we did not want to do that any more so I developed this system after some years of experimentation.
I use a filter sponge on the intake and I rinse that sponge.
It is mistakenly called a filter like a protein skimmer is called a "protein" skimmer. It is really a foam fractionator. There are no proteins involved.
The reason no one uses UG filters any longer is the clogging I mentioned. The device is fine but the way we used it in salt water was flawed.

[jason2459]

Yes but with a regular UG filter, you can't clean the water before it goes through the gavel and it will clog badly. (personal experience)

I saw a place trying to sell a UGF prefilter. It was a big thin sheet of polyfiber to lay over the UGF. I couldn't imagine having to constantly change that out. :eek2:

[michealprater]

Paul, Always a pleasure getting insight from you. Thanks.

[ChadTheSpike]

Yes but with a regular UG filter, you can't clean the water before it goes through the gavel and it will clog badly. (personal experience)

I can second that! :) (also based on personal experience!)

[Paul B]

Thank you Michael.

Hello Jason, how is your RUGF doing?

I still have one large piece of dead coral skeleton in my tank left over from the beginning.
I just could not part with it.
I would love it if it were a live piece of SPS and at times it did look like it was live when it was covered with star polyps, but now it is just a plain piece of dead coral.
You can see it to the right below the fireclown.

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh270/urchsearch/Tank037.jpg

[WISaltwaterlove]

Ok I am going to give a heads up on what is in this 90 Gal tank so you all know. Protein Skimmer made for 120 gal, canister filter with a UV Sterilizer which I am not using at the moment (using canister filter but not the UV) the canister filter has bio balls, ceranmic noodles activated carbon and pre filter pads, 60 lbs of live sand, 40 lbs crushed coral, 85 - 90 lbs of live rock, 4 Hydoras, 1 flame angel, 1 koran angel, 1 blue/green chromis, 1 peppermint shrimp, 1 cleaner shrimp, 2 porecelain crabs, 2 pom-pom crabs, 2 emerald crabs, 1 shavers (painters) brush, 1 flame scallop, 1 gold banded coral shrimp, 100 snails, 125 or less crabs, 1 anenome, 1 250 watt heater. We feed our fish every other day with a 1/2 a cube of mysis shrimp. Chemicals we use are Reef calcium, reef builder in our refill water, Reef Calcium advantage that we use in our refill water every other time, reef complete, reef plus which these are all by Seachem. We have a RO/DI system which is a 6 stage unit. For testing our tanks we use API Master Testkit. We do gravel vacing and water changes every other week. The lighting fixture we have on the tank is a Nova Extreme T5 with lunars which is 430 watts with 8 bulbs (4 - blue atinic and 4 white). We use Instant Ocean Reef Crystals. We have airstones, heater and a recirculating pump in our 33 Gal garbage can that is brand new that we store our RO water in when we need it. Our lights stay on for 12 hours and then the lunars are running 12 hours as well.


Any and all help is appreciated to put us in the right direction.

[jason2459]

[QUOTE=Paul B;16920016]

Hello Jason, how is your RUGF doing?

[QUOTE]

Been doing great so far. I am having a problem fitting in the 25 year cleaning maintanance in my schedule. I'm book out at least 30 years right now.

Been playing with three new LPS corals and they seem to be doing really well. In the three weeks I've had them the blasto's have doubled in size and have three new heads on the duncan. Torch wasn't happy but he's perking up now that I have him in some moderate flow.

http://i40.*******.com/s42yqt.jpg

http://i40.*******.com/2u91enm.jpg

http://i43.*******.com/2crq5iw.jpg


Who really loves the RUGF are my mandarins and they would like to thank you personally Paul. Here they are posing for you.

http://i44.*******.com/2e0pz46.jpg

[jason2459]

.....


Any and all help is appreciated to put us in the right direction.

Honestly, if all you have is a little algae hanging around that you can easily blow away then I wouldn't change a thing.

[WISaltwaterlove]

PH ~ 8.2
Ammonia ~ 0
Nitrite ~ 0
Nitrate ~ 0
Salinity ~ 1.024
Calcium ~ 400ppm
KH ~ 7 dKh
GH ~ 7 gKh
Copper ~ 0
Temp ~ 78 degrees
Phosphates ~ 0
Dissolved Oxygen ~ 6ppm
Redox Potential ~ 350 millivolts


these are the test results. The alage is "yucky" well in my eyes but it seems like the Coraline Alage is very slowly coming and for me it is growing to slow. I want a goregous tank that I can be proud of.

Oh I also forgot to mention the glass tops are not on the top of the tank anymore but there is alot of water current.

[Paul B]

WISaltwaterLove, a half a cube of mysis does not seem enough for all of those fish along with those million crabs, snails and shrimp.
I would also eliminate that UV, canister filter (and everything in it) and most of those additives. You really just need calcium and nothing else.
It's your money and that stuff will not hurt, but none of it is needed. (Sorry Seachem)

Jason, my mandarin says hello. (picture is probably 10 years old)

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh270/urchsearch/CopyofGorgonians1005.jpg

[Paul B]

I want a goregous tank that I can be proud of.


My tank is not very gorgeous, but I am still proud of it.
I am going for health rather than gorgeousness although having both is nice.

[jason2459]

PH ~ 8.2
Ammonia ~ 0
Nitrite ~ 0
Nitrate ~ 0
Salinity ~ 1.024
Calcium ~ 400ppm
KH ~ 7 dKh
GH ~ 7 gKh
Copper ~ 0
Temp ~ 78 degrees
Phosphates ~ 0
Dissolved Oxygen ~ 6ppm
Redox Potential ~ 350 millivolts


these are the test results. The alage is "yucky" well in my eyes but it seems like the Coraline Alage is very slowly coming and for me it is growing to slow. I want a goregous tank that I can be proud of.

Oh I also forgot to mention the glass tops are not on the top of the tank anymore but there is alot of water current.

The Cap'n already has a good post for you in his log book thread.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16916438&postcount=145

[WISaltwaterlove]

Paul ~ Could you tell me if that is too many hydoras or no or what we are doing wrong. I would really like to know what your thoughts and input is on everything since you seem to be very knowledgable in this area.

[WISaltwaterlove]

Log book thread???? Ok I lost....lol

[jason2459]

Log book thread???? Ok I lost....lol

Post on growing coraline

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16916438&postcount=145

[Paul B]

Could you tell me if that is too many hydoras or no or what we are doing wrong.

I don't know, whats a hydoras?
I just about built everything in my tank and have not bought a pump or anything else in 20 years so I am not familiar with a lot of the things you can buy.

Also, what makes you think you are doing something wrong?

[WISaltwaterlove]

Hydoras are powerheads. this is what ours looks like http://www.marinedepot.com/Hydor_Koralia_Magnum_Circulation_Pump_Powerhead_Fixed_Flow_Aquarium_Powerheads-Hydor_USA-HD00621-FIPHFF-vi.html we have 4 of them in our tank. 2 facing the surface and 2 facing each other side to side.

[Paul B]

Oh those, Yes I know what they are.
You don't necesarilly have too much circulation but mushrooms and ricordias do not like too much circulation and leathers don't need too much.
If they are thriving, it's fine.
Mushrooms should be laying almost flat. You don't want them folding from circulation, if they are, move them or turn your hydroas so they don't blast right on them.
Do you have a picture of your tank? And how long has it been set up?
Your profile says you have been in the hobby for (I think) 15 years.
Is that true? Or was that fresh water? How long have you had corals in this tank?
What are you using for substrait?

[WISaltwaterlove]

60 lbs of live sand, 40 lbs crushed coral, 85 - 90 lbs of live rock. Yes 15 years experience but only 6 - 7 years being in saltwater off and on. The tank has been up and running for about 3 - 4 months now and pics I will post in a moment as I have to take a pic of the tank. So give me like 5 - 10 minutes to get them on here.

[Paul B]

I have been asked to explain how I think a RUGF should be set up.

I use dolomite which may not be available any longer so crushed coral can be used. I would use about an inch and a half to two inches of it over the UG filter plates.
You need some way to push about 50 gallons per hour under each plate. I bent the three tubes underwater so that they come up all at one side of the tank in the rear. These three tubes enter a plastic container just above the water. Water is pumped into the container by a powerhead. In my tank I pump about 150 GPH into the container so each tube gets about 50 GPH. If you have two tubes it would be less.
The powerhead has a sponge filter on the intake so the water is filtered before it goes under the gravel. This sponge is near the surface so I don't have to reach down into the tank to clean the thing. Thats it.
This green thing (which is an old HOB filter container) is the container that the three tubes come out of. The tube on the left is the feed to the thing.
You don't have to do it this way. You can put a small powerhead on each tube if you like. Any way that you can get the water to go down the tubes to the UG filter.

P,S. don't look at the fan hanging there, that is my chiller

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh270/urchsearch/UGF001.jpg

[Paul B]

The tank has been up and running for about 3 - 4 months now

If the tank has been running for that amount of time that explains a lot. That tank is not even cycled. Yes I know what it says on your test kits and it does not matter.
Cycling happens continousely and never really stops but it does slow down drastically after the correct bacteria occupy all of the available spaces.
This could take a year or more. For now you will have algae, diatoms, coraline, no coraline and possably ich.
Leave it alone and do just as you are doing.

[WISaltwaterlove]

this is the 90 gal tank and you will be able to see the "fuzzy" alage on the back side of the tank. This tank only has a couple of items in here.

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll275/Halfpricepets/2009411.jpg

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll275/Halfpricepets/2009414.jpg

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll275/Halfpricepets/2009415.jpg

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll275/Halfpricepets/2009416.jpg

[WISaltwaterlove]

I was wrong about how long it has been up and running. The LR was in there 3 - 4 months before we added anything so overall it has been like 7 - 8 months with everything in there.