Confusion. The role of 'bioballs' in retaining high nitrates

[dgreaney]

Ok all, A simple question. Maybe.

Cycling a 220 Live Rock based tank, just finished 3 months. Ammonia / nitrites are great, nitrates are bouncing between 25 and 100+. Mostly between 50 and 100. This pattern has remained the last month, with a couple good days of ~25.

In reading opinions (and we all know what they are like), there seems to be a repeated position that bioballs in a wet dry filter somehow 'keep nitrates high' and removing bioballs somehow facilitates nitrates dropping.

I believe (as do others) that the bioballs will assist when my bioload increases (someday, if the nitrates ever drop).

I cant grasp the science of bioballs retaining nitrates. Even if they do nothing to remove nitrates, they are not adding to the system. I'm looking for some science here. Any thoughts?

[Fishamatank]

The problem with bio balls is that they collect stuff. They are fine in a FO tank, but you really have to keep them clean to keep nitrates down.

[thegrun]

Bio balls also have no capacity to denitrify water like live rock does. The small holes in live rock allow anaerobic bacteria to colonize, this bacteria has the ability to break down nitrates into nitrogen gas, bio balls do not have pours so have no denitrifying ability.

[hottuna]

There's one lfs owner I know who says all that stuff about bioballs being a nitrate factory is bunk..he uses them on many of his reefs and f/o tanks with good results...
he uses large wads of prefilter material to keep the particulates from clogging the media...maybe thats why his nitrates are in control...

[dgreaney]

Fishamatank, i agree with your position, but they only catch whats in the tank anyway. Removing the bioballs doesnt keep the stuff they catch out of the tank.

thegrun, i agree with the role of live rock in denitrication. I'm trying to figure out why bioballs are rumored to add to a nitrate problem.

[thegrun]

There's one lfs owner I know who says all that stuff about bioballs being a nitrate factory is bunk..he uses them on many of his reefs and f/o tanks with good results...
he uses large wads of prefilter material to keep the particulates from clogging the media...maybe thats why his nitrates are in control...

Well, this board is full of people who removed their bio balls and saw a drop in nitrates. Many years ago they were the cutting edge and I used them myself (although I always fought nitrates, go figure). I would never put them in a tank I own now.

[aquaman67]

There are two types of bacteria.

Aerobic and anaerobic.

The conversion of ammonia to nitrates is performed by nitrifying bacteria. The primary stage of nitrification, the oxidation of ammonium (NH4+) is performed by bacteria such as the Nitrosomonas species, which converts ammonia to nitrites (NO2-). Other bacterial species, such as the Nitrobacter, are responsible for the oxidation of the nitrites into nitrates (NO3-). It is important for the nitrites to be converted to nitrates because accumulated nitrites are toxic.

Denitrification is the reduction of nitrates back into the largely inert nitrogen gas (N2), completing the nitrogen cycle. This process is performed by bacterial species such as Pseudomonas and Clostridium in anaerobic conditions. They use the nitrate as an electron acceptor in the place of oxygen during respiration.

So bio balls create nitrate and stop. Anaerobic bacteria convert nitrate to nitrogen gas.

So, yes, bio balls are nitrate factories. That's what they are made to do, house aerobic bacteria.

[Fishamatank]

Fishamatank, i agree with your position, but they only catch whats in the tank anyway. Removing the bioballs doesnt keep the stuff they catch out of the tank.


Yes, but it keeps the stuff from settling and decomposing in one place. If it is free floating it can be removed by the skimmer or eaten in the fuge and will be removed during water changes.

[alexiap9625]

I have seen several tanks with bio balls working effectively, especially in stores.
why do stores use them? for marketing, they want everyone to think they are good.
can you use them effectively? yes if you want to create extra work for yourself.
to use them effectively you constantly need to pull out about 30% of the bio balls, about once a week and wash them in the dishwasher or sink, rinse really good before you put them back, you will see a decrease in nitrates, with this along with about a 20% water change about once a week. More work then it is worth, get rid of the bio balls and put some chato with a light above it and you will see way better results, tested both methods and the chato is the route i would go with.

[TitusvileSurfer]

I have seen several tanks with bio balls working effectively, especially in stores.
why do stores use them? for marketing, they want everyone to think they are good.
can you use them effectively? yes if you want to create extra work for yourself.
to use them effectively you constantly need to pull out about 30% of the bio balls, about once a week and wash them in the dishwasher or sink, rinse really good before you put them back, you will see a decrease in nitrates, with this along with about a 20% water change about once a week. More work then it is worth, get rid of the bio balls and put some chato with a light above it and you will see way better results, tested both methods and the chato is the route i would go with.

If you only pull 30% of your bioballs, it would be hard to pull the other 60% later. You say 30%, I assume, because the dishwasher and sink kill all of the good bacteria on the 30%. Without this bacteria your cleaned bioballs can't do their job. Think a little bit. Why not use your water change H2O for cleaning your bioballs? You could clean them all at once an not decimate your bacteria populations. I think once a week is a little over zealous, but you don't want them to get caked with garbage either. The point is, if you aren't lazy bioballs can help you. If you are lazy you create a nutrient sink. Just don't be lazy.

[dgreaney]

Aquaman, im struggling with your logic. You're suggesting that bioballs 'create nitrate then stop'. Nitrates are created from nitrites (which is a good thing). Bioballs dont create any more nitrate than would be created from nitrite to nitrate conversion on live rock or any other media. That afct that they are (maybe) more efficient isnnt a bad thing, but that dosnt explain 'extra' nitrates. The limiting part of my system is eliminating my nitrates in the denitrification step. The arguement you present, that bioballs somehow create more nitrate than other systems, is exactly what i dont agree with (which started this thread).

Fishamatank, i see what your saying. I honestly dont see any real loading on the bioballls, but that makes sense if the ball are harboring a bioload.

All I appreciate your input. And i cant argue with the results that everyone says they have had removing their bioballs, but I still dont understand the mechanics of the system other than bioloading of the balls creating a reservoir of nitrating material.

[jwd]

liverock has the bacteria to break down the nitrates though is the point aquaman was making it seems...... bio balls do not...... which is why a tank with bio balls would have more nitrates than a tank w/o...... nothing is getting rid of the nitrates.......

[blennymower]

Just my 2 cents, I'm no biologist but I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night.



So bio balls create nitrate and stop. Anaerobic bacteria convert nitrate to nitrogen gas.

So, yes, bio balls are nitrate factories. That's what they are made to do, house aerobic bacteria.

Bioballs create nitrate just like any other surface in a tank (rocks, pumps, sand, glass, etc.) Bacteria, as far as I know, dont discriminate between settling on plastic, glass, sand, or rock.


liverock has the bacteria to break down the nitrates though is the point aquaman was making it seems...... bio balls do not...... which is why a tank with bio balls would have more nitrates than a tank w/o...... nothing is getting rid of the nitrates.......

Liverock doesn't have anything other than what's available in the tank (or what already colonized it)whatever bacteria that gets on the surface of a rock, will get on the plastic surface of a bioball.

I might be wrong, but Live rock can't process nitrate into nitrogen unless the rock is really porous and creates anoxic areas like those in deep sandbeds.



I noticed that this hobby is filled with a lot of absolutes that are sometimes misleading and are perpetuated in these sorts of threads, things that make bioballs sound like spawns of the devil.

I can understand that in some circumstances bioballs can create issues, just as if it were live rock it would do the same. I have bioballs in the section right after my skimmer to reduce microbubbles from going to my pump and it does a great job. And guess what? No nitrates! or phosphates.

This idea that they're Nitrate factories regardless of how you use them is a myth.

[greenbean36191]

Aquaman's point is by design, even frequently cleaned bioballs are nitrate factories. They produce exactly the same amount of nitrate as liverock does, but liverock also breaks down most of the nitrate it produces, whereas bioballs release it all back into the water.

Ammonia taken up by bacteria on your liverock is broken down into nitrite and then nitrate. Then, because there are hypoxic or anoxic areas within the liverock, that nitrate can be broken down to N2 gas without leaving the rock and becoming available to algae.

With bioballs ammonia can be broken down all the way to nitrate, but after that there are no anaerobic bacteria to break it down further. All of the nitrate produced by the bioballs is released into the water and has to be broken down elsewhere.

[brycerb]

A petstore also can't keep enough live rock in each tank to fully show the fish they want to sell. They usually have some, but the bulk of thier filtering is done with bioballs, and water changes. They are not good for the long run. A fish store wants fish in and out as quick as possible, you want to keep them for life. Big difference in goals, think about it. :reading:

[blennymower]

Aquaman's point is by design, even frequently cleaned bioballs are nitrate factories. They produce exactly the same amount of nitrate as liverock does, but liverock also breaks down most of the nitrate it produces, whereas bioballs release it all back into the water.

Ammonia taken up by bacteria on your liverock is broken down into nitrite and then nitrate. Then, because there are hypoxic or anoxic areas within the liverock, that nitrate can be broken down to N2 gas without leaving the rock and becoming available to algae.

With bioballs ammonia can be broken down all the way to nitrate, but after that there are no anaerobic bacteria to break it down further. All of the nitrate produced by the bioballs is released into the water and has to be broken down elsewhere.

I don't want to argue the biology, since a fly probably knows more about it than I do, but I disagree with some of the basic assumptions in your (and most of everyone else's) arguement. In a closed system with X amount of live stock, Y amount of waste is created along with the by products such as nitrate. Given that bacteria live off the waste, we're going to have Z amount of bacteria population(assuming a stable tank with little deviation from normal husbandry) living on the surfaces inside the tank.

Therefore, how does the addition of further surface area, i.e bioballs, increase nitrate given that we have the same amount of live stock, waste, and hence bacteria population that lives of the waste that comes from the livestock?

[dgreaney]

But Greenbean's point makes logical sense. IF the live rock 'turnkeys' ammonia to nitrite to nitrate in one stop, you would never see the nitrate. Bioballs on the other hand simply facilitae the bacteria through the nitrate step.

If true you would expect a very short nitrite cycle and longer nitrate cycle (the live rock becomes the limiting factor to reduce te nitrates generated by bioballs). So bioballs (assuming again they ae not serving as nutrient sumps that actually are adding to the nitrates) may lenghten nitrate portion of cycle. It may or may not lenghten overall cycle time.

That would explain why 'nitrates drop' without bioballs. The live rock is the limiting factor for nitrite to nitrate portion of cycle, and nitrites would then rise.

Gotta laugh. Still not sure it means bioballs are bad.

[noahm]

Aquaman, greenbean, etc. area all correct. It is the type of surface/environment that allows LR to process the nitrates further. On a bioball, you get a monoculture of aerobic bacteria. On LR, there are micro-environments on and inside the pores of LR that allow for the full complement of bacterial colonization and thus more complete nitrate processing. There is nothing to really argue. There are some artificial media that are able to create the variable micro-environments more effectively, but bioballs are not one of them. All types of media including LR can be detritus traps and must be kept from clogging up, but this is a separate issue.

Is LR alone capable of processing nitrates fully in most aquariums? Not usually, but it is more effective than bioballs. To say bioballs are 'bad', is a misconception. They are just not as complete a form of biofiltration, and have been the underlying source of problems in many aquaria because they are often sold as such.

[whorulz1147]

If you have no livestock in the tank, why don't you take out the bioballs and see if the nitrate reading drops? If it doesn't, put the bioballs back in and carry on with your cycle... Consider it an experiment for the good of your tank and a good piece of supporting evidence for the bioball/ no bioball debate. I've always wondered about this myself...

-al-

[blennymower]

Bottomline is, there are absolutes out there that are wrong, half wrong, one-third wrong, quater wrong, and correct.

The bioball "nitrate factory" thought in my opinion is at the very least not 100% correct. I hope we can at least agree on that.:hammer:

Anyways I've made my objections and hopefully it contributed something.




Cheers

[29reef]

Well bioballs have been around for over two decades and you guys want to debate the science of why you think bioballs work. Ha! Show me a tank that uses bioballs that sit in a sump and have water over them and I'll show you a tank with nitrates! Simple as that the science has been explained in this thread already and many others. For those who believe they work as a effective bacteria home; do you use them? I doubt it... They are best used in a sling shot and used as ammo IMO.

[greenbean36191]

Therefore, how does the addition of further surface area, i.e bioballs, increase nitrate given that we have the same amount of live stock, waste, and hence bacteria population that lives of the waste that comes from the livestock?
It doesn't increase the amount of nitrate made. It increases the amount of nitrate made as a final product and released into the system. See my initial post. Whether it's being processed by LR or bioballs you get the same amount of nitrate from a set amount of ammonia. The difference is what happens to that nitrate after it's produced.

With bioballs, ALL of the nitrate goes back into the water to be broken down elsewhere or taken up by algae. Nitrate is the end product of bioball filtration. The reaction looks like ammonia-> nitrite-> nitrate.

With LR, at least some of the nitrate produced is processed within the rock itself before it ever enters the water column. It leaves the rock as nitrogen. The nitrate is only a transient species, not the end product.

On bioballs the full reaction looks like ammonia-> nitrite-> nitrate.
On liverock the reaction looks like ammonia-> nitrite-> nitrate-> nitrogen gas.

[Agathos]

Adding bioballs will not give you more nitrate AS LONG as you ALSO have LS to help with the next step (conversion to nitrogen gas). Adding bioballs will actually just help to make the first conversion (from ammonium and nitrite to nitrate) go FASTER. Assuming you have enough anaerobic bacteria (on LS) the next step will go automatically.

So in a system with adequate LS to convert any nitrate formed into gaseous nitrogen, adding bioballs will help to QUICKER reduce concentrations of ammonium and nitrite. IF this boost of the first pathway creates more nitrate than what your population of anaerobic bacteria can handle, this will cause accumulation of nitrate. BUT the alternative would still have been higher concentration of ammonium and/or nitrite, which is worse.

Conclusion: In a tank with sufficient anaerobic bacteria, adding bioballs will only do good (by converting ammonium and nitrite to less toxic nitrate).

BUT: if you remove LS and replace it with bioballs, you reduce the tanks capacity to convert nitrate. And if you remove TOO MUCH LS you might end up with a system where the production of nitrogen waste is higher than what the anaerobic bacteria can handle, causing an accumulation of nitrate.

[njfish77]

i would like to put a small maybe 1 or 2 inch layer of bioballs in my bubble trap. Its about 7" inches by 3" inches. I have both returns and my skimmer flowing into their which i guess with tht amount of flow it would keep them clean. Anyone think theyll collect anything and ill have a problem?

[aquaman67]

Liverock doesn't have anything other than what's available in the tank (or what already colonized it)whatever bacteria that gets on the surface of a rock, will get on the plastic surface of a bioball.


Why don't bio balls look like ice cubes?

The key is Surface Area.

More surface area, more bacteria.

[Anemonebuff]

i would like to put a small maybe 1 or 2 inch layer of bioballs in my bubble trap. Its about 7" inches by 3" inches. I have both returns and my skimmer flowing into their which i guess with tht amount of flow it would keep them clean. Anyone think theyll collect anything and ill have a problem?

Just rinse them every once and a while. The flow will not keep them clean, the O2 rich water will just help the aerobic bacteria thrive. I would not worry that much about it though.

[PowermanKW]

I think the key point is being missed here.

A W/D uses a return pump to move water. That water is cycled many times an hour over the bioballs capturing a lot of food for bacteria. Since you have to keep the balls clean, then you put floss to catch more stuff. The tank water is processed all through the filter catching most of the food in the tank.

Bacteria colonize this since it is such an abundant food source. The food is in the filter, not in the tank.

Bacteria do not care if they live on a grain of sand, a piece of glass, a filter, or a rock... or heck just floating in water. The size of the population will depend on the amount of food. The amount of food you input into your tank will determine the size of your colony.

So... in a W/D the water is passed through the filter and bacteria process the waste in the oxygen rich area to nitrates as has already been pointed out. Very efficiently as a matter of fact. Those nitrates enter the water column as has been pointed out. However, the aerobic bacteria live in the filter not in the tank

The difference is that in a live rock based tank.... the food is in the tank... or it is removed from the system by the skimmer. Therefore the bacteria live in the tank. That bacteria colonize the pores of the LR. That oxygen loving bacteria in the live rock strips the water of oxygen and produces nitrates. Nitrates are further consumed deeper in the rock pores by the anaerobic bacteria in the oxygen depleted zones.

Bio balls completely severs this relationship of aerobic and anaerobic bacteria. The live rock you do have in a bio ball filtered system will not produce anaerobic zones because the bacteria colony does not live there.

How do you think a nitrate coil reduces nitrates. You think just passing a bit of water through a long tube just makes them magically disappear. No... aerobic bacteria feed off nitrite and strip the water of oxygen so anaerobic bacteria later in the coil can consume the nitrates. Bio balls don't do that.

[blennymower]

It doesn't increase the amount of nitrate made. It increases the amount of nitrate made as a final product

Why do you assume that this nitrate isn't processed by anaerobic bacteria in the tank? Nitrate produced by other bacteria like those on the surface of live rock, glass, pumps, etc., are but not those created by bacteria on bioballs?


and released into the system. See my initial post.

Whether it's being processed by LR or bioballs you get the same amount of nitrate from a set amount of ammonia.

Correct, I made this point. We'll have the same nitrate, but somehow anaerobic bacteria in the tank won't process it anymore because its coming from bioballs?


The difference is what happens to that nitrate after it's produced.

With bioballs, ALL of the nitrate goes back into the water to be broken down elsewhere or taken up by algae. Nitrate is the end product of bioball filtration. The reaction looks like ammonia-> nitrite-> nitrate.

Again, the only thing I have a problem with here is your basic assumption. Why do we assume that nitrate produced by bacteria on rock surface is processed into nitrogen but not nitrate produced elsewhere in the tank. Are the bacteria's on the rock surface linked to anaerobic bacteria so that nitrate in the surface of the rock goes straight to the inside as opposed to being taken by flow and eventually getting processed by anaerobic bacteria?




With LR, at least some of the nitrate produced is processed within the rock itself before it ever enters the water column. It leaves the rock as nitrogen. The nitrate is only a transient species, not the end product.

On bioballs the full reaction looks like ammonia-> nitrite-> nitrate. So then the nitrate from bacteria ON BIOBALLS never makes it to anaerobic bacteria in the tank to process into nitrogen gas?
On liverock the reaction looks like ammonia-> nitrite-> nitrate-> nitrogen gas.





Why don't bio balls look like ice cubes?

The key is Surface Area.

More surface area, more bacteria.


Where do the additional bacteria come from then if the waste from livestock is the same?? Sorry but bacteria aren't going to increase in population just because there's more surface area. They might space out, but not increase if the food source is the same.

[LifeAquatic]

Heres my two cents.

Bio Balls are designed for use in Fish only tanks. They were created to immitate live rock. They provide a bacteria surface that converts nitrite to nitrate but thats it. They do not remove nitrates! You have to keep up on frequent water changes to remove the nitrates.

Live rock does pretty much the same as bioballs except it also removes nitrate. There are low oxygen areas on the rock that foster bacteria that convert nitrate to gas and then out of the tank. There are no low oxygen areas on Bio Balls.

There is no need to use Bio Balls and Live rock together. The prefered method is live rock... but it depends what type of tank you have.

Fish Only tank with no live rock = Bio Balls
Reef tank lots of live rock= No Bio Balls

Lets re cap.. Bio Balls are designed to create Nitrate. Thats their job. So yes they are considered a Nitrate factory. Live rock removes nitrate. Having them both in your system is counter productive.

Fell free to chime in and question me. = )

[blennymower]

Heres my two cents.

Bio Balls are designed for use in Fish only tanks. They were created to immitate live rock. They provide a bacteria surface that converts nitrite to nitrate but thats it. They do not remove nitrates! You have to keep up on frequent water changes to remove the nitrates. I don't think anyone here is saying they remove nitrates

Live rock does pretty much the same as bioballs except it also removes nitrate. There are low oxygen areas on the rock that foster bacteria that convert nitrate to gas and then out of the tank. There are no low oxygen areas on Bio Balls.

There is no need to use Bio Balls and Live rock together. The prefered method is live rock... but it depends what type of tank you have.

Fish Only tank with no live rock = Bio Balls
Reef tank lots of live rock= No Bio Balls

Lets re cap.. Bio Balls are designed to create Nitrate. Thats their job. So yes they are considered a Nitrate factory. Live rock removes nitrate. Having them both in your system is counter productive.

Bioballs are designed and marketed as instruments that expand surface area to accommodate bacteria that remove ammonia and nitrite. They're not designed to create nitrate; that's like saying, jet engines are designed to release carbon emissions and pollute the earth.

You are making points that people here are continually making, yet don't answer any of the questions I have submitted. (see the questions I have left on my replies and quotes of others)

Fell free to chime in and question me. = )

[bsagecko]

Ok just a couple thoughts...

bioballs were orginially made to enhance the movement of ammonia to nitrates...they do this through a huge amount of surface area and the fact that they work in an aerobic environment via what is known as a "wet/dry" system....

Now in most ppls more modern systems the use of protein skimmers, refugiums, and the like have made bioballs a some what "old" technology....as previously mentioned in this thread bioballs have an end product of nitrates. Liverock on the other hand has the potential to take nitrates and convert them into nitrogen gas....

So yes having liverock that is extremely porous allows for nitrogen gas to be the end product instead of nitrates which reduces the potential for nitrate related problems....

However, typically when ppl refer to bioballs as a negative thing in their system it is because they do not use them properly.....

The proper use would entail heavy mechanical filteration before the water hits the bioballs...also having heavy chemical filteration after the bioballs.....In addition your DT would typically have about 1~2lbs of liverock per gallon of water....and equivalent sandbeds....using this type of system bioballs were and still are extremely effective at taking ammonia and nitrites down to nitrates which then can be introduced to those "anaerobic" bacteria that live in your liverock to be reduced to nitrogen gas...however it is important to note that during the height of the bioball use ppl typically did a 10~20% water change thus reducing the level of toxic materials such as nitrates in the system on a weekly basis....also it is important to note that in their height of use, aquarium systems typically were allowed to have 0~20 ppm of nitrates in the water at any given time and this was not considered to be a real big problem...

BUT in today's systems with the better designs of protein skimmers, better ideas about refugium use, and the fact that people what to do less water changes, less maintenance, and people want less nitrates, the use of bioballs has been frowned upon...

In the end, bioballs can be used effectively if used correctly...but it is usually alot easier to use filter socks, high powered/capacity protein skimmers, reactors, tons more liverock, RDSB, refugiums, ATS, and the like to replace bioballs and some of the potential problems thereof.... Also the fact that protein skimmers also pull out a large amount of organic compounds before they are even able to start breaking down play an important part in the discontinued popularity of bioballs among the newer generation of hobbyists...

hope this helps

[PowermanKW]

Again, the only thing I have a problem with here is your basic assumption. Why do we assume that nitrate produced by bacteria on rock surface is processed into nitrogen but not nitrate produced elsewhere in the tank. Are the bacteria's on the rock surface linked to anaerobic bacteria so that nitrate in the surface of the rock goes straight to the inside as opposed to being taken by flow and eventually getting processed by anaerobic bacteria?

The point is, that in the live rock tank, waste will fall on rock and sand, and the aerobic bacteria will process it. They also consume oxygen and CREATE more low oxygen areas for anaerobic bacteria to colonize. It is the relationship and position of the two that are the difference.

In a bio ball tank, nitrates are released to the water column. Then those nitrates have to float around for a while and somehow make their way to low oxygen areas of the rock or sand bed. Sure they might eventually make it, but in the mean time fish are still getting fed and pooping, the bio balls are still breaking down waste to nitrates, and the nitrate CONCENTRATION in the water column increases. At some point a balance will be met. Aerobic bacteria will break down waste, and anaerobic bacteria will consume nitrates and the concentration will not rise further.

But at what concentration??? 20ppm...50ppm...100ppm??? Fine if you are a FO tank.... not so great for those that want a reef tank and don't like doing 30% water changes weekly. Then again, the concentration will eventually fall once the tank is overgrown in GHA.

[LifeAquatic]

Bioballs are designed and marketed as instruments that expand surface area to accommodate bacteria that remove ammonia and nitrite. They're not designed to create nitrate; that's like saying, jet engines are designed to release carbon emissions and pollute the earth.

Well how do you remove Ammonia and Nitrite? Through the process of Nitrafication. Bio Balls foster the bacteria that does this job. The bacteria grown on Bio Balls converts nitrite into Nitrate. So yes, they do create nitrate. And no, unlike Live Rock Bio balls will never remove nitrate. So if your bio balls hold the bacteria that creates nitrate essentially you are creating a nitrate factory. Unless you remove the nitrate... "water changes" the nitrate will just keep rising. So tell me how that isnt a "nitrate Factory"? Dont clean bio balls, other wise you just lose your bacteria that creates Nitrate. Then your left to cycle again. Makes sense right?

[LifeAquatic]

+1 for Powermans response.

[LifeAquatic]

This post is kind of ironic in a sense. Bio Balls were created to host bacteria colonies that convert nitirite into nitrate. So IMO they are nitrate factories.

[Amp2020]

Here's my two cents.

Live rock has diverse population of growth that can consume solid waste before the bacteria has a chance. Breaking it down and reducing its amount. Equals less waste to be converted to Nitrates and less Nitrates means the denitrifing bacteria that's available will have a better chance of removing all of it. Bio balls have only bacteria that are very efficient at converting the full amount of ammonia and waste straight to Nitrates.

If the live rock and bio balls were producing the same amount of Nitrates from the same amount of waste. Then why would the live rock not be able to break the Nitrates down with the use of bio balls? Detritus isn't the only source of ammonia and nitrites. So if the fish are making free floating ammonia that is not in close proximity to the live rock. Why would the live rock only be able to break it down if the bio balls were removed? What evidence is there that aerobic and anaerobic bacteria have to be on the same rock to work together? I thought they both lived in different environments and couldn't survive in the same conditions.

[greenbean36191]

Why do you assume that this nitrate isn't processed by anaerobic bacteria in the tank? Nitrate produced by other bacteria like those on the surface of live rock, glass, pumps, etc., are but not those created by bacteria on bioballs?
No one is making this assumption!

Denitrifying bacteria would be perfectly happy to process the nitrate produced by bioballs. It just has to get to them first, and the only way for that to happen when the nitrate is produced by bioballs is via diffusion through the water column. It HAS to increase the concentration in the water column to get to where the bacteria can process it. Of course making it available to the denitrifying bacteria in this way also makes it available to algae. That's the issue.

In liverock, where the nitrifying and denitrifying bacteria are adjacent to each other, nitrate can diffuse to the denitrifying bacteria without increasing the concentration in the overlying water column.

[fstar25]

i dont want to get into the debate because the facts regarding the "missing link" about conversion to nitrogen gas have already been made. i will just say that i bought in from the start and 3 1/2 months in with refugium replacing bioballs with 4 fish and twice daily feedings and i have 0 amm, 0 nitrates and 0 nitrites. good luck all

[PowermanKW]

Here's my two cents.

Live rock has diverse population of growth that can consume solid waste before the bacteria has a chance. Breaking it down and reducing its amount. Equals less waste to be converted to Nitrates and less Nitrates means the denitrifing bacteria that's available will have a better chance of removing all of it. Bio balls have only bacteria that are very efficient at converting the full amount of ammonia and waste straight to Nitrates.

I would disagree, all waste is food for something else down the chain. At the end you still have "X" amount of waste produced by "X" amount of bio load which is then broke down to core components by bacteria.

If the live rock and bio balls were producing the same amount of Nitrates from the same amount of waste. Then why would the live rock not be able to break the Nitrates down with the use of bio balls? Detritus isn't the only source of ammonia and nitrites. So if the fish are making free floating ammonia that is not in close proximity to the live rock. Why would the live rock only be able to break it down if the bio balls were removed? What evidence is there that aerobic and anaerobic bacteria have to be on the same rock to work together? I thought they both lived in different environments and couldn't survive in the same conditions.

That is the whole point. Anerobic bacteria live in low oxygen environments. Not a lot of that in a tank on it's own. And then the nitrates have to be diffused through media to reach it by osmosis. Aerobic bacteria consume oxygen and produce nitrate, ideal conditions for anaerobic bacteria = greater nitrate reduction.