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View Full Version : Follow the Tang's Trip to the Hospital-Live or Die Take the Poll!!


DaFishHead
04/12/2010, 03:32 PM
Alright people. My poor, poor, poor tang. I have no idea how it happen. But it did. My powder has ICH!!!!! Look at my poor baby!!!

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=2027&pictureid=13676

So it is time to set up the hospital tank...
Never done this before...
Here is my plan...

First I got my Hospital tank Ready...
I am using a 55G tank with 20G of water in it
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=2027&pictureid=13679

Double checked the amount of water in the tank...
48" x 12" x 8" / 231 =~20G
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=2027&pictureid=13682

I dosed the tank with Copper
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=2027&pictureid=13680

Tested the copper at .15 milligrams/liter using this test....
And I would not recommend this test. It is very hard to read.
Anyone recommend a better one?
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=2027&pictureid=13681

Then DA TRAP was set!!!
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=2027&pictureid=13677

I used fishing line and a old frag plug to help set the trap
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=2027&pictureid=13678

The next day I caught the little guy....
And a flame angle at the same time!!
HA!!
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=2027&pictureid=13683

Day one......3:00 PM on 4-12-2010 The tang is in Da Hospital
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=2027&pictureid=13685


The directions on the copper say that I should keep the tang in the hospital for 14 days.
That does not seem long enough because Ich can live longer than that. We shall see what people's feedback is.


Now you take the poll....Will the Tang make it

AMDphenomx4
04/12/2010, 04:08 PM
Personally, I had my powder blue and it had a little ich, less than yours, and feeding it helped it recover well. I kept it in the main tank which like yours, still has ich, and it recovered fine. Yours, aslong as you keep it well fed and unstressed, looks like it will be fine.

DaFishHead
04/12/2010, 04:19 PM
Personally, I had my powder blue and it had a little ich, less than yours, and feeding it helped it recover well. I kept it in the main tank which like yours, still has ich, and it recovered fine. Yours, aslong as you keep it well fed and unstressed, looks like it will be fine.


FALSE!!!!

Or so I have read.
I hear the only true way to get rid of ich is to QT the fish. However usually Ich is in every tank and when a fish is stressed it will get the ich.
With that said I hope I am wrong because I would love to see fish make it.

Untamed12
04/12/2010, 04:33 PM
Well...the flip side is that my achilles tang has ich all the time. (Of course, it varies in severity from time to time, but never disappears completely)

I've done nothing in particular to treat it, or the tank...and it has been over three years now.

Yes...I'm very sure it is ich. There are many other fish in the tank and the only other one that sometimes shows sign of it is my Atlantic Blue.

So it is my personal experience that ich is not necessarily an automatic death sentence if untreated.

What has been said already is that if you "cure" your tang in the HT, he will just become re-"infected" when you return him to your DT.

Recty
04/12/2010, 04:37 PM
Unless the tang is doing HORRIBLE, I would leave it in for three weeks with the copper treatment and then leave it in quarantine for a couple weeks to see if it shows signs of any other problems.

Untamed12
04/12/2010, 04:40 PM
I would guess that the parasites that the ABT is carrying are goners within a short time of the transfer into the medicated HT. There would NOT be an established population of parasites living in the HT, so 14 days seems more than enough time to ensure that the ABT is parasite free.

DaFishHead
04/12/2010, 04:42 PM
what has been said already is that if you "cure" your tang in the ht, he will just become re-"infected" when you return him to your dt.



doh!!!

DaFishHead
04/12/2010, 05:27 PM
I'm sure that if I can get rid of the ich that is on him he will not get re-infected. If I leave him out of the tank for a while, 90 days, it will break the ich cycle on the tang.

Untamed12
04/12/2010, 05:32 PM
I'm sure that if I can get rid of the ich that is on him he will not get re-infected. If I leave him out of the tank for a while, 90 days, it will break the ich cycle on the tang.

Sorry....it doesn't work that way.

While you may see the parasites on your PBT, the other fish will serve as hosts enough to keep the parasite alive and well in your tank. You just happen to see them on the PBT because that particular fish is more susceptible to the parasite.

The ONLY way to remove the parasite from your display (assuming you can't medicate the reef), is to have NO fish in the tank for an extended period of time.

lougotzz
04/12/2010, 05:38 PM
I'm sure that if I can get rid of the ich that is on him he will not get re-infected. If I leave him out of the tank for a while, 90 days, it will break the ich cycle on the tang.

You're confused.

The ich is a free swimming parasite, that will find other fish in the display to use as a host to survive. If you arn't treating your entire tank and keeping the tank fallow for 8 weeks, this is basically all for nothing unfortunatly.

sikk50
04/12/2010, 05:43 PM
It doesn't look bad, but I'm a pesimist and voted no. Sorry

lougotzz
04/12/2010, 06:46 PM
It doesn't look bad, but I'm a pesimist and voted no. Sorry

Yeah I think putting the tang through copper treatment is what is going to do him in.

shorty53538
04/12/2010, 07:43 PM
Sorry....it doesn't work that way.

While you may see the parasites on your PBT, the other fish will serve as hosts enough to keep the parasite alive and well in your tank. You just happen to see them on the PBT because that particular fish is more susceptible to the parasite.

The ONLY way to remove the parasite from your display (assuming you can't medicate the reef), is to have NO fish in the tank for an extended period of time.

I agree with this 100% you have to leave the tank fishless for the extended amount of time in order for the parasite to completly be gone....

Raf1985
04/12/2010, 08:28 PM
i had the same problem, my first tank had a fish with ich and it never went away. every fish i put in afterwards (butterflies and tangs) would get ich. I started a new tank now and I'm hoping that if I quarantine each fish and put them through hypo, I will never get an outbreak. Correct me if I'm wrong.

DaFishHead
04/12/2010, 09:12 PM
I know that tangs are more likely to get ich. That is the only fish in my tank that has displayed signs of it. I know that it is in my tank. However if the fish (perc clowns, wrasses, gobees and angles) don't get stressed it is possible that they will never show signs of it. Correct?

I had a hypo tang in my fist tank that had ich off and on for a year and it always pulled through. This tank is the tank I am going to be with for a long time. Will Ich always come back as strong as it was before?

The ich is not really bad in my tank so I was not going to treat all of the other fish. Maybe I should pull all of my fish and treat them before I go forward? I guess there is no good answer.

DaFishHead
04/12/2010, 09:14 PM
It doesn't look bad, but I'm a pesimist and voted no. Sorry

HA!!!
That motivates me to make sure he lives!
I love a challenge.

Besides, it is a beautiful fish and no one wants to see him go.

lougotzz
04/12/2010, 09:27 PM
The point is simple, if you treat this tang, but don't treat your tank, the PBT is just going to get ick again. Just because you don't see white spot on your fish doesn't mean it doesnt have ick. Or ick isn't in the tank. If you want to get rid of it, you need to treat all the fish in the tank, and run your tank fishless for 8 weeks.

FWIW, ive seen several tanks with ick with no ill effects from it. A healthy fish will fight it off or build an immunity against it. A lot of people see a white spot and just flip out then they end up stressing the fish and it dies as they try to treat it. I'm part of this group.

AMDphenomx4
04/13/2010, 02:49 PM
FALSE!!!!

Or so I have read.
I hear the only true way to get rid of ich is to QT the fish. However usually Ich is in every tank and when a fish is stressed it will get the ich.
With that said I hope I am wrong because I would love to see fish make it.

Whats false? I said that my tank like his has ich in it.

Ynotme4886
04/13/2010, 03:54 PM
I had to leave my tank Without fish for 12 weeks to get the ich bug out when I had it.

Was a pain to get it out. Tried 6 weeks fallow the 1st time and failed. Tried 8 weeks the 2nd time and had the same results. 12 weeks without fish did the trick for me and havent had it back since.

On the bright side while I had no fish in the tank I worked a bit on aquascaping and my corals so when it was time for fish everything was in place and looked nice.

DaFishHead
04/13/2010, 07:35 PM
I had to leave my tank Without fish for 12 weeks to get the ich bug out when I had it.

Was a pain to get it out. Tried 6 weeks fallow the 1st time and failed. Tried 8 weeks the 2nd time and had the same results. 12 weeks without fish did the trick for me and havent had it back since.

On the bright side while I had no fish in the tank I worked a bit on aquascaping and my corals so when it was time for fish everything was in place and looked nice.

I think that I will have to do this. Did you give all of your fish a copper treatment?

DAY TWO- The tang is doing well and is eating. He does not even look like the copper is hurting him. Infact I think I saw him smile at me!!

DaFishHead
04/14/2010, 05:13 AM
Day Three.

Woke up today and found the poor guy laying sideways on the bottom of the hospital floor.:thumbdown:thumbdown
As I am posting this the results of the polls were 6 voted he would live and 7 voted he would die.

The seven were right. The poor little guy will be flushed.

Things I would have done different.
1. treated all of my fish before I put them into my tank.
2. I would not have just left this guy in my tank. For what ever reason he had a outbreak of ich and I felt most comfortable doing damage control to protect the rest of my fish.
3. Had this happened again, I might have moved the tang to the hospital tank but not added copper right away. this might have given him a little less stress.


What I will do now.
1. I will remove all of my fish from my main tank. I will put them into a new tank with no copper for a period of time. I will read up on treatment before I put them back in my main tank.

Thanks for the comments on this thread. I hate to lose a beautiful fish like this.

REEF ON!!!

RBU1
04/14/2010, 06:00 AM
Make sure when you remove fish they are going in a tank that is already cycled...

duastina
04/14/2010, 07:12 AM
A fellow reefer I know went through 3 PBT before he got a show size one they always got ich then he got a UV sterilizer and he said it was his fish life insurance

DaFishHead
04/14/2010, 07:28 AM
Make sure when you remove fish they are going in a tank that is already cycled...

yep will do

DaFishHead
04/14/2010, 07:29 AM
A fellow reefer I know went through 3 PBT before he got a show size one they always got ich then he got a UV sterilizer and he said it was his fish life insurance

What do people think about UV on your tanks?
I have never used one. What are the pros and cons?

DaFishHead
04/14/2010, 07:30 AM
By the way.....I love that people are still taking the poll and saying that the fish will live after he has died!!

Love it

mike_dani
04/14/2010, 07:35 AM
Ok so I will make some folks mad with this post and some not this is my experience and what works for me so here it goes....

I have a 300 gallon tank, in it I have 13 tangs among other fish 20 total; yellow, atl blue, achiles, blonde naso, scopas, sailfin, kole, tomini, purple, powder blue and brown and a orange shoulder.

Now if there is one thing I know about tangs is when they get stressed they will break out in Ich. The stress could be as simple as a 5 year old tapping on the glass or me moving a frag. I have in the past done the hospital tank for up to 6 months with all fish not just one or two but all. I have used all sorts of treatments and although the fish looked great when done I have lost one or two afterwards due to the environment and then ich come back.

What I have concluded is this, Tangs are just common carriers of Ich it will come and go with them it is just a fact of Tang ownership. What I have found to be the best practice is this, keep your water stable like you have the most expensive SPS out there. If you dont have or wont make the time to do this QUIT KILLING THE FISH. I have also found that an ANTIBIOTIC called Metronidazole works great. Yes I know Ich is a Parasite and I am talking about an antibiotic, the only thing I can think of is it will bolster the immune system of the fish helping them out.

I use 500MG (1 tablet) of Metronidazole for every 20 gallons of water (not tank volume) for me it works out to 12 tablets. If I see any of my Tangs come down with it the in goes 12 tablets and the next day all signs are gone. I go to my vet and have her order me a 500 tablet bottle its like 52.00. I also feed my Tangs a wide variety of foods, this too is very important to their health. I feed frozen foods for all fish high quality Nori clean organic Spinach and live brine shrimp that I add garlic oils and vitamins to once a week.

NO blasting here I am only trying to give my .02 we are trying our best to replicate the most powerful body of water and sometimes mother nature is much smarter than us. Good luck on treating your fish

DaFishHead
04/14/2010, 07:44 AM
QUIT KILLING THE FISH.

Does not sound like blasting to me......:rolleyes:


I use 500MG (1 tablet) of Metronidazole for every 20 gallons of water (not tank volume) for me it works out to 12 tablets. If I see any of my Tangs come down with it the in goes 12 tablets and the next day all signs are gone. I go to my vet and have her order me a 500 tablet bottle its like 52.00. I also feed my Tangs a wide variety of foods, this too is very important to their health. I feed frozen foods for all fish high quality Nori clean organic Spinach and live brine shrimp that I add garlic oils and vitamins to once a week.



Do you have a corals in your tank or fish only. Is Metronidazole reef safe?
Thanks for the post. Did you take the poll? I am trying to raise my tang from the dead.....Please take the poll and tell us that you have FAITH!!

:D

mike_dani
04/14/2010, 09:10 AM
Does not sound like blasting to me......:rolleyes:


Do you have a corals in your tank or fish only. Is Metronidazole reef safe?
Thanks for the post. Did you take the poll? I am trying to raise my tang from the dead.....Please take the poll and tell us that you have FAITH!!

:D

Not directed at you just the hobby in general, to many new reefers will kill numerous fish until they figure it out. I have no issues learning from your mistakes, I sure did 20 years ago and still do today. The problem I have is most fish are wild caught and some people do not use forums like these to do any research prior to adding or owning reef related live stock. I have been to too many LFS a hear them give the worst advice ever and people think this is the place to learn.



Here is the 300 setup before my glass cracked
http://i597.photobucket.com/albums/tt56/mike_dani/300%20display%20tank/300Setup.jpg

Here is my current setup waiting on a replacement tank
http://i597.photobucket.com/albums/tt56/mike_dani/300%20display%20tank/The_Lagoon.jpg

And here are some of the live stock I have
http://i597.photobucket.com/albums/tt56/mike_dani/300%20display%20tank/Sunset_MontiandPink_Tipped_Orange_D.jpg
http://i597.photobucket.com/albums/tt56/mike_dani/300%20display%20tank/Colonies.jpg
http://i597.photobucket.com/albums/tt56/mike_dani/300%20display%20tank/Frag_Rack_Left.jpg
http://i597.photobucket.com/albums/tt56/mike_dani/300%20display%20tank/Frag_Rack_Middle.jpg
http://i597.photobucket.com/albums/tt56/mike_dani/300%20display%20tank/Frag_Rack_Right.jpg
http://i597.photobucket.com/albums/tt56/mike_dani/300%20display%20tank/photo1.jpg

As you can see I have a little of everything LPS SPS Softies Clams and Anemones, none of them have ever shown a adverse reaction to the Metro.

duastina
04/14/2010, 09:17 AM
How did your glass crack? BTW beautiful stuff!

mike_dani
04/14/2010, 09:37 AM
while moving the tank into the house we had to turn it on its side because it is 36" wide with a coast to coast external overflow that is 5" wide so it would not fit through the front door at 41" total. There was a small spot that had not been polished and had a bur in the edge so when the load shifted there was a pressure point added to the glass and it started as a chip. After filling and adding all the rock sand and water it cracked and started to leak.

duastina
04/14/2010, 09:49 AM
OMG that bites! I was scared when you said your big tank cracked, my stand is leaning slightly and I was hoping that was not the cause, I know how thick that glass is, I thought it would take a lot to make it crack!

Untamed12
04/14/2010, 11:58 AM
Day Three.

Woke up today and found the poor guy laying sideways on the bottom of the hospital floor.:thumbdown:thumbdown

Things I would have done different.
1. treated all of my fish before I put them into my tank.
2. I would not have just left this guy in my tank. For what ever reason he had a outbreak of ich and I felt most comfortable doing damage control to protect the rest of my fish.
3. Had this happened again, I might have moved the tang to the hospital tank but not added copper right away. this might have given him a little less stress.


What I will do now.
1. I will remove all of my fish from my main tank. I will put them into a new tank with no copper for a period of time. I will read up on treatment before I put them back in my main tank.

Thanks for the comments on this thread. I hate to lose a beautiful fish like this.

REEF ON!!!

Sorry to hear you lost him, but I commend you for documenting the attempt for others to benefit from.

It sounds like you understand what is required to rid your tank of the parasite.

To your point #2.... We'll never know what might have happened had you left him be. While he may have died from ich, he may also have died from the stress of capture, QT and treatment in a possibly uncycled HT. I'm not sure that removal of that particular fish would do a lot to protect the others. Ich is still there, and the other fish seem to have no problem with it so far. They aren't likely to have problems unless they get stressed for some other reason. It could be argued that having one fish that gets more easily attacked might contribute to a heathier population of parasite...

As I mentioned earlier, I have an achilles tang that has ich problems. It is a pretty good comparison to your PBT. I did nothing...still have the achilles..and I still have ich.

What do people think about UV on your tanks?
I have never used one. What are the pros and cons?

While it is expected that certain levels of UV can kill the parasite in its free-swimming stage...UV use alone won't make any significant difference in parasite population in the tank.

DaFishHead
04/14/2010, 03:40 PM
Not directed at you just the hobby in general, to many new reefers will kill numerous fish until they figure it out. I have no issues learning from your mistakes, I sure did 20 years ago and still do today. The problem I have is most fish are wild caught and some people do not use forums like these to do any research prior to adding or owning reef related live stock. I have been to too many LFS a hear them give the worst advice ever and people think this is the place to learn.

Agreed and it drives me nuts too!

lougotzz
04/14/2010, 04:04 PM
By the way.....I love that people are still taking the poll and saying that the fish will live after he has died!!

Love it

When did it die? Sorry to hear that.

Toddrtrex
04/14/2010, 04:16 PM
What (( if any )) bio-filtration did you have for that QT? It could have very well died from an ammonia spike -- didn't see anything in the way of filtration in that one pic.

TampaReefer79
04/14/2010, 05:36 PM
A fellow reefer I know went through 3 PBT before he got a show size one they always got ich then he got a UV sterilizer and he said it was his fish life insurance

The UV sterilizer won't take care of the ich.

To the OP - I'm sorry I saw this so late. As I was reading the thread, I was hoping you took the fish out of the copper and put him back in your display. As everyone was telling you, treating just the tang was pointless. You either needed to treat them all, or don't bother treating any. And treating a pbt with copper is not the way to go.

DaFishHead
04/14/2010, 07:33 PM
What (( if any )) bio-filtration did you have for that QT? It could have very well died from an ammonia spike -- didn't see anything in the way of filtration in that one pic.

Skimmer

Toddrtrex
04/14/2010, 08:09 PM
Skimmer

Just the skimmer? Need some sort of bio-filtration, be it a sponge that was seeded from the main tank, or some live rock -- but something is needed to process the ammonia.