PDA

View Full Version : Wrasse having a bad response to prazi?


LukFox
04/16/2010, 10:35 AM
Okay a little history. I got a 1m/2f trio of McCosker's flasher wrasses a little over a month ago. They eat everything, look great, but the male has always breathed faster than either girls, and I was a little worried. It never got worse or better over the course of the month. I gave him a 2 minute freshwater dip a couple weeks ago and nothing fell off.

Knowing that some flukes are too small to see, I decided to get them into treatment just in case. The dip actually made him very reclusive and breathe rapidly for about 24 hours. I figured it was the stress (he got his mouth caught in the net when I went to remove him, and getting him free without hurting him was a 5 process) or maybe flukes I couldn't see.

They are in a 33 gallon long tank that for the last week has only been filled to the 20g mark because I didn't want to make 2 trips to the LFS for more RO water (previously I was using treated tap, but I had to switch for the cupramine treatment). I figured 20g would be enough anyway, and I've done it this way twice previously with perfect results.

By Sunday they were in full cupramine treatment, and all was well. On Wednesday I dosed prazipro, and the male started going downhill... He was still mostly fine on Wednesday after the prazi dose, he ate with the girls and everything, but on Thursday he only came out to quickly change hiding spots. Didn't eat. Today he didn't come out to eat either, but I saw him change his hiding spot. Physically he looks totally fine: No film, no ragged fins, clear eyes, alert to my presence, but he is breathing rapidly and is very reclusive. The girls are fine.

The QT is cycled, but I can't really test for ammonia at this point because of the cupramine. I didn't harm the filters though, and they are well established and have been running with fish for about 3 months. They are two aquaclear filters rated for 30 gallons each.

I'm confused and afraid for him :(. Should I discontinue the prazi treatment or let it run its course and see if he recovers?

Recty
04/16/2010, 01:58 PM
Wrasses seem to have a harder time with copper than most.

I had a couple small wrasses at one point, I put them through a 5 minute low salinity formalin dip to kill off the flukes, I didnt try to copper them.

It's been a while, but I think I did it twice or three times because I really didnt want to get disease into my main tank or flukes and supposedly the formalin helps even with ich on the fish... although I've heard differing theories on that.

Regardless, if he is doing really badly I'd stop the copper treatment. There are two school of thought on it though, either he lives through it or not, if the copper kills him you wont get ich/flukes in the tank through him, or if he lives through the copper you wont get ich/flukes in your tank either. Personally, I'd rather the fish live and try some other type of treatment like multiple FW dips or formalin.

LukFox
04/16/2010, 02:09 PM
He seemed to be doing just fine with the copper though. ): I started adding copper on Friday (4/9), and it wasn't until I added the prazi on Wednesday (4/14) that he started acting all weird... Could it still be the copper?

LukFox
04/16/2010, 03:33 PM
Well this is just awesome... Now my larger female is rapidly breathing, and she's swimming around with her head slightly tilted downward. Is she in the late stages of an internal parasite problem or could this be from the meds, too? D: She was totally awesome before. Maybe prazi made the parasites act up?? Though metro is what is advised for internal parasites... Don't know why prazi would irritate internal ones. Help. :worried:

My small female is still showing no problems... *knock on wood* The male actually looks a -little- better. Not as nervous, and maybe the breathing rate even slowed down. He's leaning/sitting upright in some PVC instead of laying on his side now.

LukFox
04/16/2010, 03:54 PM
They are all terrified of the camera, but I caught her out and took a couple videos to show the tilt. The tilt is actually much worse than I thought it was when I made the previous post.

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb279/Tikall_Fire/th_MVI_7596.jpg (http://s208.photobucket.com/albums/bb279/Tikall_Fire/?action=view&current=MVI_7596.flv)

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb279/Tikall_Fire/th_MVI_7597.jpg (http://s208.photobucket.com/albums/bb279/Tikall_Fire/?action=view&current=MVI_7597.flv)

LukFox
04/16/2010, 05:31 PM
Okay umm. Well I am beginning to think that maybe it really is the copper, and maybe the copper test kit is off and it is too high. The weird way the big female is swimming could be due to copper, right? I read it can affect the nervous system...

I am going to put them in an aerated bucket of clean DT water and see what happens I guess. :hmm5: Maybe I'll use a sterilite tub. I have a spare 41 quart, so that's bigger and has more surface area.

Recty
04/16/2010, 05:51 PM
I'd get them out the "bad" water fast, I think. It isnt going to hurt. You might have to treat again later but at least you're keeping them alive that way.

EDIT - Well I watched the video, it doesnt look that bad to me. But you know your fish better than me.

LukFox
04/16/2010, 05:55 PM
Exactly, I wish I had done it sooner. I wasn't sure if I was fighting something that the meds would help or the meds itself, but I'm thinking the female's sudden change in condition is likely from the copper now. They're all in the 41 quart now. Hopefully there will be a positive change. If so, I'll clean out the QT and put them back, and just skip copper. If this doesn't break them out into disease I probably shouldn't worry about them carrying anything.

Compared to the way they usually swim, it is a big change for her. :( She usually swims smoother than that, too. She also refused food for the first time this afternoon.

Recty
04/16/2010, 06:09 PM
I hope it works out for you. I've seen fish start losing their color after copper treatment, a guy up here had quite a few angels that got a copper overdose and they paled pretty quickly, the next day they were pale and he had dosed way too much copper when we tested it.

I'm not saying you over dosed, but it's possible and definitely losing color seems to be an indication they at the very least are not happy with the water.

LukFox
04/16/2010, 06:33 PM
Ah they didn't pale out, though, but by the time I fished them out the female was wearing her stress/sleeping colors. Hopefully this all ends well. Thanks, Recty!

I should look into a different copper test brand. I'm using an API test right now, and although it isn't old it is a bit hard to read. What brand did you use?

Recty
04/16/2010, 09:13 PM
I use Seachem's test kit with Seachem's copper product (Cupramine) and have good results. It specifically says it's made for that type of copper so I figure why not use it.

I havent found a copper test kit I like though, but Seachem's isnt bad once you get used to it.

jjk_reef00
04/16/2010, 09:59 PM
I'm afraid of over dosing copper. I try to use qt tanks that are 55 gallons or less if possible. That way I use 5 gallon buckets to measure how much water I add back into the qt tank while I'm doing my water changes. Then I dose cupramine to the proper amount.

I also remove rock and anything else that I think could absorb the copper. If you do all your water changes like this it is very unlikely you will overdose copper. That is just my opinion.

Also I have used prazi a few times and ever time I do it the fish seem very lethargic. Especially fish that like highly oxygenated water such as tangs. I still put at least 1 air stone in the qt when I treat prazi.

LukFox
04/17/2010, 09:36 AM
Looks like copper was just a bad choice for these guys. When the male started going downhill, they were still at the starting dose that the bottle says to use on day 1 and then redose 48 hours later. No other copper added. But all of the symptoms match copper poisoning, so it's nice to know that that's taken care of with a simple cleaning out. Phew! Thanks a million, Recty, for suggesting copper sensitivity.

Today I have three active, eating wrasses! The male has returned to his "normal" rapid breathing level that he has had since his arrival, and the girls breathe normally. If a new prazi treatment doesn't kick the male's breathing, maybe his breathing rate is just normally higher...

jjk_reef00, prazi has even affected my fish's eagerness to eat aggressively and they turn into pickers over the course of treatment. At least prazi wasn't the issue here, and I can safely use it. :)

Recty
04/17/2010, 03:29 PM
No problem, I like to help ;)

You could go with the "transfer" method to treat ich... if you dont know what it is, I'll explain real quick

Have two tanks set up... one with fish, one without. We will call the first tank Tank #1 and the second Tank #2.

After two days, move your fish from Tank #1 to Tank #2. Immediately drain tank #1, bleach it and clean it GOOD, including all equipment like powerheads or filters. Let it dry or whatever, rinse it out good, then set it up again. Two days later, move the fish from Tank #2 to Tank #1 and repeat the cleaning process on Tank #2.

After 14 days of this, your fish should be ich free. The ich that hatches off the fish and hits the ground has to sit for a couple days before it swims back up to reattach to the fish. If you never let them get to the point where they swim, the fish will never be reinfected. You need to do this for 2 or 3 weeks (I'd personally do 3) and by that point all the ich has hatched off the wrasses and you're home free. It's definitely more labor intensive than the other methods of treating for ich, but it doesnt require low salinity or copper which wrasses are notoriously poor in dealing with.

jjk_reef00
04/17/2010, 04:58 PM
LukFox I'm glad your fish are doing better!

Recty that is a very cool technique. Sorry to hijack but I saw you had an Achilies tang in your old FOWLR. Did you treat that with copper?

LukFox
04/17/2010, 05:02 PM
Yeeahhh that method has always seemed so laborious... Maybe I'll have to. Part of me just wants to be lazy and add them to the DT hoping they don't have anything, but I've even gone through the trouble of QTing non-fish items so that would kind of stink if they introduced something lol.

If I used plastic tubs for this, would the tubs retain bleach? They'd be MUCH easier to keep cleaning out.

Recty
04/17/2010, 05:18 PM
I dont think they would retain bleach... but if you're worried, just use a dechlorinator like Prime.

I never really thought about using tubs for it but that would work a lot easier than a glass tank.

Recty
04/17/2010, 05:19 PM
LukFox I'm glad your fish are doing better!

Recty that is a very cool technique. Sorry to hijack but I saw you had an Achilies tang in your old FOWLR. Did you treat that with copper?

Yep, I treated him with copper, he came through it just fine. I ended up getting rid of him because he was a jerk to some other fish I liked, but while I had him he seemed plenty healthy after the copper treatment.

LukFox
04/17/2010, 05:49 PM
I dont think they would retain bleach... but if you're worried, just use a dechlorinator like Prime.

I never really thought about using tubs for it but that would work a lot easier than a glass tank.

Sounds good :)!

Recty
04/17/2010, 06:57 PM
Not that it's really any of my business, but are you female? I just saw your signature and it says "alexa" which is a friend of mine's name who is female, I cant say I've ever heard of a dude with that name.

LukFox
04/17/2010, 07:30 PM
Haha yes I am. I added the sig there because I tend to get called Luke with this username. :lol:

Recty
04/17/2010, 10:12 PM
I would have made my directions a lot simpler had I known you were a girl.

Just kidding ;) I wont mention it again.

Keep us posted on the health of the wrasse. I'd be interested to hear how the transfer method works if you end up going that way, I've heard of the method but never actually seen anyone do it.

LukFox
04/17/2010, 10:21 PM
Will do. :D Hopefully his rapid breathing goes away with the treatment!

Recty
04/18/2010, 12:31 AM
Depending on how these wrasses handle freshwater dips, it might not be a bad idea to freshwater dip them for a couple minutes between each tank transfer.

LukFox
04/18/2010, 03:06 AM
The male handled his dip really poorly (he seems to handle everything poorly, blah), but the girls seem much more resilient so I could try it out for them.

LukFox
04/18/2010, 03:07 AM
The male handled his dip really poorly (he seems to handle everything poorly, blah), but the girls seem much more resilient so I could try it out for them.

LukFox
04/18/2010, 03:08 AM
The male handled his dip really poorly (he seems to handle everything poorly, blah), but the girls seem much more resilient so I could try it out for them.

LukFox
04/18/2010, 03:09 AM
The male handled his dip really poorly (he seems to handle everything poorly, blah), but the girls seem much more resilient so I could try it out for them.

LukFox
04/18/2010, 03:10 AM
The male handled his dip really poorly (he seems to handle everything poorly, blah), but the girls seem much more resilient so I could try it out for them.

LukFox
04/18/2010, 03:11 AM
The male handled his dip really poorly (he seems to handle everything poorly, blah), but the girls seem much more resilient so I could try it out for them.

Recty
04/18/2010, 02:33 PM
It probably isnt necessary, if only because of the fact that whatever the male is carrying, if he is carrying anything, will just get back on the females anyway.

Up to you of course, but if you're not going to dip them all there probably isnt a lot of point to it since they are sharing the same water.

LukFox
04/18/2010, 03:56 PM
Holy crap my browser was freaking out last night. :| I didn't even know I posted 100 times. Augh at least I only messed up my own thread.

True true... I may try dipping him once more in that case to see how he handles it.

Recty
04/18/2010, 04:49 PM
What is weird is I looked at this thread this morning and it only had 26 replies, the last one being yours and there wasnt a duplicate 5 times...

Now, it shows you posted 5 times last night but I didnt see them when I checked earlier.

Recty
04/18/2010, 11:09 PM
What's really weird is this is the 34th post in this thread but the forum shows this thread has only 28...

Decide if/how you're going to treat the wrasses yet?

LukFox
04/18/2010, 11:20 PM
It's like I broke the server lol. I'm going to put them through a week of prazi (started it today), then start the transfer method. :)

LargeAngels
04/19/2010, 06:58 AM
I don't think the Cupramine had anything to do with your wrasses issues. If that was the case you should have seen it much earlier. More likely it was the affect or Prazi killing flukes or internal parasites.

Recty
04/19/2010, 10:46 AM
I don't think the Cupramine had anything to do with your wrasses issues. If that was the case you should have seen it much earlier. More likely it was the affect or Prazi killing flukes or internal parasites. At this point it's just conjecture, but I can easily see a wrasse being able to handle being in cupramine for a couple days and then slowly showing signs of stress. You build up to the dose, the wrasses body is fighting off the copper like it should and then it starts losing the fight.

Anyway, just because it didnt immediately freak out doesnt mean it wasnt the cupramine. In fact, if it was Prazi killing flukes or internal parasites, when she put the wrasses in non coppered water they wouldnt have recovered as fast as they did.

LargeAngels
04/19/2010, 11:04 AM
There is a possibility it was the Cupramine, but it may also have been the water quality. I didn't see anywhere about the water quality. I just have never seen any bad reactions to Cupramine in any fish, even copper sensitive fish. I treat every fish I get with Cupramine and still have yet to see a bad reaction. I have seen some fish be a little reclusive and slow down on eating after Prazi and it is probably what JHemdal describes as the flukes leaving holes in the fish's skin after being killed.

Recty
04/19/2010, 12:11 PM
There is a possibility it was the Cupramine, but it may also have been the water quality. I didn't see anywhere about the water quality. I just have never seen any bad reactions to Cupramine in any fish, even copper sensitive fish. I treat every fish I get with Cupramine and still have yet to see a bad reaction. I have seen some fish be a little reclusive and slow down on eating after Prazi and it is probably what JHemdal describes as the flukes leaving holes in the fish's skin after being killed.

Like I said, it's all conjecture at this point ;) It could be a number of things, but the fact that it cleared right up after being put in "good" water makes me not blame fluke holes, unless she put the wrasses into not only "good" water but also "magic" water that heals holes instantly.

It could have been poor water quality and it could have been cupramine, hard to say. I'd personally blame the cupramine since she's QT'd fish before and knows how to keep water quality up.

I treated a wrasse, a checkerboard wrasse I believe, with cupramine once and noticed it go downhill within a couple days. I had a purple tang in the same QT and it was perfect but the checkerboard started really having problems... I blame the cupramine only because the other fish in the tank was fine, water quality was fine and nothing else had changed besides me adding cupramine.

LukFox
04/19/2010, 05:09 PM
I doubt water quality was a problem, though I admittedly did not test it when things were getting weird. Even so, I didn't do anything to harm the filters or dump in a whole bunch of food to rot.

Months back when I first started using cupramine, I know I overdosed a pygmy angel because I misread the test. She very obviously lost balance until the effects wore off some hours later in clean water. The female wrasse's dip in her swimming reminds me of a very low grade of what the angel had. This time I do not believed I overdosed, but I think it is possible they grew sensitive to it.

Whatever it was, they're in prazi now and afterward they will be given the transfer treatment, too. :) Covering all the bases. Today all of the wrasses are still swimming around fine and eating eagerly.

LukFox
04/21/2010, 04:54 PM
Well the male has crossed from "might have flukes" to "has flukes." I was looking at pictures of McCosker's flashers yesterday, and I noticed they all had a straight edged tail. Mine has had a jagged tail for as long as I can remember. It is such a perfect jag (like <a href="http://z.about.com/d/rubberstamping/1/G/g/0/-/-/scissors2sm.jpg">this</a>) that I thought it was totally normal and just more fancy finnage. I took a macro shot of it to see what it looks like up close, and well, there's my "ragged tail" symptom. Coupled with the breathing, I'm glad he's in prazi now.

Considering the clean water cured their condition so quickly, I still doubt they were bleeding out. However it could have easily compounded the stress of copper and be why the fw dip stressed him out so much.

They've been in prazi for 3 days in the most recent treatment now. All fish are still eating and are active. The only thing is earlier this morning, the male nearly had a heart attack when I fixed some eggcrate that fell over. He hid for several hours... He does this every time my hands go in the water. I wonder if being neurotic is a symptom of anything. :/

Recty
04/21/2010, 07:43 PM
That's good to hear that at least you know they have flukes... so I dont know how much you've used Prazi but usually people seem to dose for a week, do a big water change and then dose again. I've done that on a couple occasions and it seems to work very well.

LukFox
04/21/2010, 08:12 PM
Yeah I've dosed butterflies with it before. Hopefully things look up soon. The transfer method will be postponed a week to get the full prazi run.