Need help with C declivis ich treatment

[LobsterOfJustice]

Hey all,

So my declivis butterfly just cant shake his ich. I QTd in copper for two weeks, introduced him to the display, and he came down with ich. Must have caught it from one of my other fish despite showing no symptoms. He lived with it for about 2 months, just a few spots here and there, but eventually got a little worse and I decided to pull him and treat. Problem is, he doesnt eat under copper. He ate poorly under the initial QT, and this second time I pulled him he pretty much went off food entirely. I didnt keep him under the full two weeks because after about 10 days I couldnt take any more of him fasting. He ate immediately once back in the display, but sure enough, more ich spots once he's in the display. Same thing happened over time... slowly got worse so I pulled him last night. And again, he immediately refuses food while in QT under copper. It's the weirdest thing - in the display he goes nuts for nori, shrimp rubber banded to a rock, and fresh clams, and will gladly eat mysis, brine, etc from the water column as well. As soon as he gets in QT - no interest in anything.

So I guess I'm just looking for ideas. Does anyone think he would take another treatment better - like methylene blue, formalin, hypo etc? Any other ideas?

[NexDog]

Don't understand the point of treating a fish for a pathogen that is simply going to attack it the minute it re-enters the main system. There's a reason he can't shake the Ich and thats....well because you have Ich in your display.

"If it's worth doing, it's worth doing right."

And that is removing all your fish and eradicating the parasite and then quarantining correctly so Ich doesn't enter the system. Even then it can get in if copper isn't administered correctly or your strain of cryto is resistant to hypo (they are surfacing).

However, if you have a large system with lots of fish (not sure how many fish you have) then removing all is going to be hard. First capturing and then housing for 2 months while the DT goes fallow. So you're left with only one path and that is making the DT stable as possible so the fish don't stress. That means great parameters and no agression. And you'll also only be able to keep certain fish as some are obviously sensitive to life in a crowded glass box. Maybe your Declivis is one of those.

So no point in trying to eradicate the infestation on the fish if it will catch it again. You can try - with hypo (and i've had 100% success with hypo), but it's 6 weeks out the DT for the fish so I hope it eats. Hypo shouldn't affect its appetite though like copper does on most fish.

I guess if I was in your situation I would try the hypo, cure the fish, put it back in and crosss my fingers.

[euod]

Are you keeping your tank at lower temp. ? These guys tend to stress out at higher temp.

[flameangel88]

You may have a problem from the start because Declivis shouldn't take long to wean into prepared food. My experiences with Cupramine is poor with 14 days treat and one time even 23 days was not long enough. I usually go minimum 30 days. If you go the hypo route I would go the extra distance and with 8 weeks.

Was any of your other fish picking on the Declivis while in the DT?

[LobsterOfJustice]

I'm keeping the tank 74-76. I'd like to get it a little cooler.

The devlivis receives no harassment while in the DT. Up until this point I've always been a proponent of healthy, well fed, low stress fish can fight off ich and its not a problem...

[LargeAngels]

Don't understand the point of treating a fish for a pathogen that is simply going to attack it the minute it re-enters the main system. There's a reason he can't shake the Ich and thats....well because you have Ich in your display.

I agree. If you aren't going to treat the whole system there is no point and if the declivis keeps getting worse in the tank then move him to another tank or sell him.

[LobsterOfJustice]

Is an ich free tank really feasable? I feel like even if I remove all fish and treat, ich is bound to come in again at some point down the road even with good qt. I guess in theory its the right thing to do but just seems unlikely to work long term.

I'll do it if I have to. Just seems excessive when only one fish is showing symptoms.

[LargeAngels]

Is an ich free tank possible? Yes. Is it hard? No.

There are fish who will develop an immunity to ich. The rest of your fish may be fine living with ich in the tank (as long as nothing major happens), but it seems that the declevis may not be.

[Jacob D]

I would take the approach of getting him otherwise healthy first. Take him off meds, get him eating, leave him in the QT for a while by himself to de-stress. More than likely the ich will clear up, to an extent. Then you can decide if you want to try and cure him of it, erradicate it from your tank, or... just live with it and make sure to keep your fish fed well and water quality in good shape.

I was running an ich free tank for some time, but I have never had much success with tangs in QT and finally just decided to add a couple to my tank without QT'ing them. I'm sure I have it in my tank now, but I never see any signs of infected fish.

[jmaneyapanda]

Is an ich free tank possible? Yes. Is it hard? No.

There are fish who will develop an immunity to ich. The rest of your fish may be fine living with ich in the tank (as long as nothing major happens), but it seems that the declevis may not be.

Ive heard the term "immunity to ick" used so often, and I must confess, I object to it a little bit. "Ick" is a protozoan parasite. An "immunity" to it is not something I can easily comprehend. It would be like saying your dog is "immune" to fleas. Certainly fish may be able to resist or fend of an infestation due to their healthy immune system, but does this imply that they will never catch it again? IMO, absolutely not. They can and may be just as susceptible to it and any other point, for a number of reasons.

[LargeAngels]

Ive heard the term "immunity to ick" used so often, and I must confess, I object to it a little bit. "Ick" is a protozoan parasite. An "immunity" to it is not something I can easily comprehend. It would be like saying your dog is "immune" to fleas. Certainly fish may be able to resist or fend of an infestation due to their healthy immune system, but does this imply that they will never catch it again? IMO, absolutely not. They can and may be just as susceptible to it and any other point, for a number of reasons.

Yeah, you are right. "Resist" or "Fend off" are better terms.

[NexDog]

I am pretty sure I don't have Ich in my DT. I have always used hypo as my QT method but I just used Cupramine on 5 Royal Grammas so hoping I dosed correctly (test kits suck). I like hypo as it's easy to maintain (you can't overdose it) and you can run skimmer and UV. I lost a group of Royal Grammas in hypo a few years ago and heard a few other tales of them not doing well in hypo hence the switch to copper this time around. Big plusses for Cupramine are short length of cycle (for us impatient reefers) and that copper kills velvet too. But some delicate fish don't eat with copper.

So an ich free tank is very possible if you kill the parasite before it reaches your tank. QT is harsh though and I rarely do a cycle without losing a fish. Last year I started adding fish again after a few years break. The first cycle I did a male Clarki, Niger trigger, 1 heniochus and 3 diamond gobies and the heni and gobies didn't make it. The gobies came from a crap vendor though and I didn't have sand in the QT but still, those were the losses. After that I got a pair of foxfaces and a pair of Potters and teh Potters didn't make it (pretty sure Prazi killed them). I then did a pair of Emps, bird wrasse and bluejaw trig and they all made it (except the older Emp probably killed the smaller one in the DT and the Niger probably killed the bluejaw) and the bird wrasse was seen a few times over a few months but never looked great (popeye both eyes from QT) and I haven't seen it for 2 months so I'm sure it's dead.

So what's that, 3 QT cycles, 14 fish of which 5 survived and 6 died in QT. 21 fish, 10 survived, 8 died in QT including the new RG batch. So yea, it's hard. More fish would survive if I acclimatise and put in the DT straight away but how many would die from disease? Maybe none, maybe all. That's the risk.

[LobsterOfJustice]

How do you all feel about removing corals and other inverts from the display and treating it (and the rock) with hypo? Will there be too much dieoff? Removing corals and housing them separate for 8 weeks is more feasable than removing the fish and housing them separate for 8 weeks.

[stunreefer]

If your livestock lots of life on it (sponge and such) I wouldn't do it.

[Big E]

How do you all feel about removing corals and other inverts from the display and treating it (and the rock) with hypo? Will there be too much dieoff? Removing corals and housing them separate for 8 weeks is more feasable than removing the fish and housing them separate for 8 weeks.

That's how I did it a few years back & it was easier. I split the rock up between the two tanks. I would do it again the same way. It's the easiest option & I could care less about life on the rock. It takes a few months for pods & worms to repopulate a tank. Coralline will handle the hypo.

[LargeAngels]

Will there be too much dieoff?

Virtually all inverts will die. So the next questions will be do you care and can your system handle the ammonia spike when everything dies? It can be done, but only if there are not many inverts in the rock/sand and if your system can handle the ammonia spike. If your system can't handle the ammonia spike then the fish will be worse off and possibly die.

[kinlayan]

Besides curing the ich out right what steps can you take to reduce the amount of parasites in the water
1. water changes
2. ozone treatment in reactor
3. micron filtration-cold sterilization
4. uv sterilization
5. feed immune enhancing foods-garlic, beta glucan etc

if you do all 5 of these you may reduce the population to a sufficient level where while the ich remains latent , the immune systems of the fish are able to cope with it and it wont be lethal unless conditions worsen these 5 steps might still be better than hypo which isnt a guaranteed fix for never getting ich again in a system

cryptocaryon is really a fatal disease of captivity in that it rarely causes mortality to fish in the wild as it is a light infestation and only in captivity does it reach epidemic proportions

[RBU1]

Well I recently started a thread in the disease forum pertaining to ich in a system. I don't want to go into the full story.....But lets just say I followed QT protocall to a "T" and even left my tank fallow for 12 weeks...As soon as I put my crosshatch trigger in the main tank he has something on him.......Unless there is something else that looks like ich im thinking thats what he has. All fish in my main tank have been thru 4 weeks of cuprmine at .5 and at least 1 dose of prazipro. So who knows.....Right now I am not sure what I think about this parasite. I taking the let them fight it off approach......Breaking down the 300 gallon tank again for a third time is no longer an option!!!!!

[michealprater]

This seems fairly simple to me. As long as the fish is eating aggressively in the dt, he is obviously better off there than in the qt. If the fish doesnt eat he is a goner for sure. If he is eating he has a chance to "fight off" ich. To me, in a full blown reef with ich, unfortunately you will have to accept the fact that ich will be there. Going fallow is something people throw out there like it is a simple solution. The reality is it is a major pain in the you know what with a large full blown reef tank. I have to laugh because 90% of the people that suggest going fallow have never did it with a large full blown reef, so how could they know how much trouble it is. I have ich in my display and have yet to lose a fish to it because I get them eating really well in QT, then when I add them to the DT they continue to eat well, they get ich, it gets worse, then they slowly fight it off. How do they do it, I dont know, but it happens right before my eyes. My only explanation is they eat very well. There is a cleaner wrasse in there, but we wont start that debate. My most recent additon is a PBT that was fat and eating like a pig. He still is. He got a few ich spots and then it got really bad. I thought I may have my first loss, but it kept eating, received lots of attention from the cleaner, and now is almost ich free(at least to the human eye). I may be wrong, but if it were my fish, I would put him in the display and feed heavy, FWIW.

[LobsterOfJustice]

This seems fairly simple to me. As long as the fish is eating aggressively in the dt, he is obviously better off there than in the qt. If the fish doesnt eat he is a goner for sure. If he is eating he has a chance to "fight off" ich. To me, in a full blown reef with ich, unfortunately you will have to accept the fact that ich will be there. Going fallow is something people throw out there like it is a simple solution. The reality is it is a major pain in the you know what with a large full blown reef tank. I have to laugh because 90% of the people that suggest going fallow have never did it with a large full blown reef, so how could they know how much trouble it is. I have ich in my display and have yet to lose a fish to it because I get them eating really well in QT, then when I add them to the DT they continue to eat well, they get ich, it gets worse, then they slowly fight it off. How do they do it, I dont know, but it happens right before my eyes. My only explanation is they eat very well. There is a cleaner wrasse in there, but we wont start that debate. My most recent additon is a PBT that was fat and eating like a pig. He still is. He got a few ich spots and then it got really bad. I thought I may have my first loss, but it kept eating, received lots of attention from the cleaner, and now is almost ich free(at least to the human eye). I may be wrong, but if it were my fish, I would put him in the display and feed heavy, FWIW.

This is what I had been doing - waited for months for him to fight it off, feeding ultra heavy (at the expense of my sps corals, most of which have died)... and it just didnt get better. I do appreciate an alternate to going fallow though.

[LobsterOfJustice]

Update: I removed all corals and inverts from my 180 and have been running FOWLR all summer. I lowered the salinity and ran at 1.009 for three weeks, I lost 6 anthias and a candy hogfish. I decided to start bringing my salinity back up because 1) I was losing more fish to the treatment than the disease 2) all fish appeared healthy and 3) I do not intend on quarantining all new rock, corals, and inverts fishless for 8 weeks while I'm restocking my tank, so ich is likely to be reintroduced anyway. I have been raising the salinity by topping off brackish water for about two weeks... and the declivis is getting spotty again. I have literally destroyed my tank for this fish, lost half my stocklist, spend $300 on new rock, gave all inverts and corals to friends... and he still has ich.

[NexDog]

That is what happens when you don't hypo for 6 weeks.

I bet you wish you had just caught the fish and set up a $50 QT now. :D

[LobsterOfJustice]

I treated him with cupramine for a full treatment before putting him in the tank. But I didnt QT all inverts fishless for 8 weeks, so it was in the display anyway and he caught it in there. If you read the OP you'll see I removed him and treated him a few times but he kept re-catching it, and also he won't eat in QT.

[Recty]

I'm not sure what to tell you. If you wont treat the fish in the manner to need to in order to get rid of ich, you're always going to have it present in your system.

If that one fish seems particularly susceptible to ich and you're not willing to do what it takes to get rid of ich once and for all (I understand you've had some hardships along the way) then maybe it's time to think of selling him to someone else.

If I was me with the fish and I did all this work to fix ich and then cut my treatment short and he ends up with ich I'd be irritated, I have a hard time believing you went to all this trouble and then just decided to only treat for 3 weeks and then raise salinity again.

Anyway, to each his own but if I were you I'd just get rid of the fish.

[Big E]

I agree with Recty...........you were only half way through the treatment. The anthias & hog are collateral damage, it sucks, but that's the price you pay now for not QT'ing all your fish from day one.

I lost a couple of anthias also........but it was worth it to save my prized fish & clear up the problem.

I don't see why you stopped now........all new additions from this day forward will be affected in the same way the Declevis was. You take your lumps now versus having more problems later.

Other than losing some fish how did you destroy your tank? When I was done I put my corals back with the fish & didn't lose a single coral. Why did you have to spend $300 on new rock?

[LobsterOfJustice]

I stopped now because losing 8 fish to save one is ridiculous. I began losing corals due to housing them in a less than perfect setup (I don't happen to have a spare display tank with metal halides, a calcium reactor, auto topoff, temperature controller, etc laying around) so I gave them to my friends to hold indefinitely, and all the rock in the treated tank is dead and covered in brown slime.

I am going to continue raising the salinity of the tank, once the tank is back up at 1.025 I will swap out the rock, in the process I will catch and remove the declivis. I can house and treat him in a 30g... then decide what to do with him from there.

I could lower the salinity again, but who knows how many more fish I'd lose (if I lost my leopard wrasse eating flakes and pellets I'd probably just take the tank down - I've also still got 3 anthias left), and ich is sure to be reintroduced anyway as I can't QT all incoming corals fishless for 2 months (see clause above about no spare second display tank sitting around).

[Big E]

I understand your frustrations...........I'm not sure why you lost 8 fish to hypo? Although I agree that anthias don't handle it well & thats most of your losses.

I swapped all the essential equipment to the tank with the corals except the skimmer because with no fish it's not needed. I did have an empty 180 laying around, but since I sold it I always keep a 100g rubbermaid around for emergencies.

I still wouldn't bother replacing the rock.....maybe add a few new pieces, but I'd just scrub it up some & it will come back fine.

Good Luck