Best option to keep Calcium Up?

[Dustin1300]

I'm wanting everyones' opinions on this as I previously would just add calcium additives. I'm not looking for something to put into my new tanks/sump that will keep calcium levels up in a more automated and steady fashion. Previously I did not keep very much SPS but have just gotten a tank going that I am looking to build much better than my previous (My first tank!). Anyways, this system is up and just moved over inhabitants/corals from my other system. Am moving in about a year and will plan on buying a 180+ Gallon System so please keep that in mind on recommendations!

My steps thus far:
- Increased water volume from 55 to 75
- Addition of a SUMP
- Replacement of my Coralife SS 125 (Purchased a Super Reef Octopus 3000)

My next action to address before adding SPS corals is going to be getting some type of equipment in to dose my tank with calcium. Currently it has some various softies and LPS corals that I plan on keeping in 1/3 of the tank where flow is not as high. (GOT RID OF MUSHROOMS AND SOLD TO SOME LOCALS)

Anyways, below are some of the options that I've considered. Please comment and provide opinions on what route I should go....I don't plan on making this purchase until later this month because I've spent quite a bit upgrading the system the past month.

- Midwest Aquatic 7x15 The Sulfur DeNITRIFIER up to 250g (http://premiumaquatics.com/store/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=PA&Product_Code=MA-SD715&Category_Code=denitrate)- $339.95
- Korallin BioDenitrator S-1502 w/ Eheim 1048 Pump (http://premiumaquatics.com/store/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=PA&Product_Code=M3-S-1502-BD&Category_Code=denitrate)- $359.95
- KORALLIN C-1502 PACKAGE DEAL and Tank (http://premiumaquatics.com/store/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=PA&Product_Code=M3-C-1502PDT&Category_Code=CRpackage) - $599.99
- GEO 618 Calcium Reactor Economy Package with Tank (http://premiumaquatics.com/store/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=PA&Product_Code=PA-GEO618ED&Category_Code=CRpackage) - $694.51
- 2-part Doser (Not sure whether this compares to the other options listed above but I've seen great results with it)
- Possible a DIY Reactor?!?

Thanks for your help and hope to see one pop up on the selling forum so I can save a little moola. :dance:

[Navyblue]

The denitrifiers are not calcium reactors.

Best option? I guess there is none. Do what works for you. Kalk dosing, 2 parts, calcium reactors, none of them are new, do a search and you'll find the pro and cons of each.

[Dustin1300]

I'm thinking of 2 part dosing as it seems like a simple solution and relatively inexpensive. I've known a local reefer that does so and seems to have good success. Based on this I'm thinking I'm going to go with that option. Below is what I'm looking to purchase:

- 2 Part Calcium, Alk, Magnesium (http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/store/products/calcium-alkalinity-magnesium/two-part-calcium-and-alkalinity-solution/two-part-calcium-and-alkalinity-total-package-large-1.html)

I guess I would then want to automate things so it was more consistent.....The two part media will be cheap but the dosers are expensive as I already knew:

- Reef Doser (http://premiumaquatics.com/store/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=PA&Product_Code=AM-70115&Category_Code=Dosers)

Anyone know of a doser that is reliable and more inexpensive than the one I just mentioned? I'm going to put out a WTB and look on the forums but am looking to a good/inexpensive doser! Gravity feeding will not work either as it will not work with the system. I can tuck three jugs on side of sump and dose through pump....Thanks again for all your help RCers!

[NYCBOB]

i dose kalkwasser. very easy and best to do at night.

[Dustin1300]

I've seen that mentioned....Is this also true of the two part too? I think after doing some further research that the LiterMeter III would be the best option with two remote pumps so I can dose the alk, calcium, and magnesium.

[DiscusHeckel]

I use RHF's two-part with excellent results. I connected the containers holding (baked) bicarbonate of soda and calcium chloride to individual peri pumps (2ml/minute). Pumps are also connected to individual digital timers. I could have bought a GHL independent dosing unit, but my peri pumps are of superior quality.

I dose the bicarbonate solution during the night (in three stages to ensure that pH will not rise too high. I dose the calcium solution in the morning and about 2.5 hours after the last dose of bicarbonate of soda.

Thanks

[James77]

Anyone know of a doser that is reliable and more inexpensive than the one I just mentioned? I'm going to put out a WTB and look on the forums but am looking to a good/inexpensive doser! Gravity feeding will not work either as it will not work with the system. I can tuck three jugs on side of sump and dose through pump....Thanks again for all your help RCers!


I'd avoid the doser you linked to. BulkReefSupply sells a couple different dosers, all are great- plus they also sell all the two part ingredients.

http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/store/products/pumps-and-plumbing/dosing-pumps-and-auto-top-off-systems


Profilux makes a stand alone doser that comes in 2-4 dosers per unit. It is more expensive- but not much more than the one you linked, plus the quality is top notch.

http://bwiplumbing.com/index.php/ghl-profilux/dosing-pumps.html

The LM is an excellent dosing system as well, but pretty pricy. They work great against long runs and high head, so if you wanted your jugs on another floor- they'd be best. You only really need two dosers, as the magnesium does not get dosed too often.

[jmoney]

the sro 3000 is also way to big for your system, i use esv b-ionic 2 part, and mag dosed through brs dosers on digital timers, pretty simple, I check maybe every two months to see if I need to refill anything

[Dustin1300]

:uzi:the sro 3000 is also way to big for your system, i use esv b-ionic 2 part, and mag dosed through brs dosers on digital timers, pretty simple, I check maybe every two months to see if I need to refill anything

The SRO 3000 is being used as I plan on upgrading the system to a 180+ next spring. Buying the 1000/2000 would have been a waste of money should I have went that route....

[neoalchemist74]

I say DIY reactor, w/Ph controller and kalk for top off. Look for a glassblowing shop in your area, study the best cal reactors and make a drawing w/ what you want. Go to a beer brewing supply store and get a co2 bottle and cellinoid. Look for a Precision Marine Ph controller on line used ,cheap! I have a Milwaukee controller I' like to get rid of but I'm sure your not going to drive to Denver.

[Dustin1300]

I would like to ultimately use the LiterMeter III with remote pumps but until then why can I not just purchase three Aqua Lifter pumps and buy timers for each and run for a few minutes each night? This would provide everthing I need for now and can use a more granular approach once I get money to purchase the LiterMeter? Anyone happen to do this?

[neoalchemist74]

you should try just kalkwasser w/afloat valve first to see if your evaporation rate doesn't
come close just keep an eye on your ph and if it gets to high then switch to ro/di water.

[sjm817]

Take a read here for some good background info:
How to Select a Calcium and Alkalinity Supplementation Scheme
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/feb2003/chem.htm

IMO, Kalk ATO is the best place to start. You need topoff anyway, and it is very simple and inexpensive to add to the system. If Kalk can not meet the tanks demands, then you can add a ca rx or 2 part to make up the balance.

[Dustin1300]

Right now I'm using a GAP ATO System (http://premiumaquatics.com/store/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=PA&Product_Code=GAP-LC&Category_Code=Dosers) that is keeping the water topped off in my return section of the sump.

The problem with running the kalk would be that I need something that will push the mix up from my basement which would be nearly a 10 foot climb up to my tank. I'm then unsure of how that would work even if I did get a pump as I would not want a pump pressurized all the time. I could use an extra salt bucket and mix kalk in it and then have a digital timer that would only pressurize to the pump for a certain amount of time each night. That would only be topped off should the tank be low on water.

Any suggestions on a pump that would work with that set up?

[sjm817]

Are you changing the ATO setup? What distance are you pumping now?

[Navyblue]

You could pump top off water through a container filled with kalk which then overflow into your sump in a similar fashion to Tunze kalk doser.

[Dustin1300]

Are you changing the ATO setup? What distance are you pumping now?

Right now the RO/DI system stays on and is down in my basement. The water then travels in tube about 8-10 feet up to my GAP ATO system in the sump return section. That is how it is currently configured. Any good ideas on what I could set up that would feed the limewater to the tank.

****Thanks for the link to the pros/cons. Not yet had a chance to read every word but helped explain a lot of things and believe that kalk would be my best bet at this point. :thumbsup:

[sjm817]

Direct RO/DI topoff has its disadvantages. The potential for a big problem with an unlimited supply of topoff is one of them. The other is you are making water at very small increments which will use up your DI quickly. RODI is better made in large batches.

Pumping topoff 10' is not an insurmountable problem. A decent peristaltic pump will do it as will a decent size water pump. Most submersibles have a 12' max head. You dont need a lot of GPH.

[Dustin1300]

With limited space under my tank I think the best option would be pumping the kalk up to the sump in place already. I could then set up a container (Instant Ocean Bucket) in basement that would mix the kalk and then could have a pump in it to pump upstairs.

That being said....My design would be as follows:

Set up a container in basement that would be topped off by RODI water using my GAP controller. I could then hook the LiterMeter III up and run the draw line from the container's lime water (where settling has not happened). Then from the existing line I could tie into the LiterMeter's feed line. From what I've seen this is the best pump for the job per manufacturer specs:

This incredible lift enables the LiterMeter III™ to pump over 60 feet above itself at a flow rate of over 250 ml/min. It can also draw up from 25 feet below.

[Dustin1300]

Direct RO/DI topoff has its disadvantages. The potential for a big problem with an unlimited supply of topoff is one of them. The other is you are making water at very small increments which will use up your DI quickly. RODI is better made in large batches.

Pumping topoff 10' is not an insurmountable problem. A decent peristaltic pump will do it as will a decent size water pump. Most submersibles have a 12' max head. You dont need a lot of GPH.

With what your saying I could do it better in batches by using a timer for the GAP top off system. This could then create RO/DI twice a week in my container and I could manually mix the kalk into the container and have the LiterMeter III pump off the limewater like I earlier explained.

[sjm817]

If you have a basement topoff container, use a big one. I have a basement sump and use a 44G Brute. It lasts about 2 weeks. The LMIII will push that from the basement no problem.

[Dustin1300]

I could go that route as it would go through the 5 gallon bucket too quickly. I've got the space too so it would not be a problem. I'll plan on dropping by Lowes to see what choices I have as it would be a much better option. With the size of my tank I would think that the 44G Brute would last nearly a month. The whole point of this is to make it automated...Why not go with a bigger storage container:) Thanks for the input as it has been very helpful. Should I need to dose tank with two part later I could pick up two more remote pumps for the LiterMeter III!

I guess that is another thing to check off the list. Other piece of equipment I need to look for is a PH monitor!

[Dustin1300]

Scott,

Since you've got a 44 Gallon Brute set up how do you have yours set up? I was just thinking of running a pump in the bottom to stir it up for a little bit once I first add the kalk. Then once it is stirred will let it settle until the next time I need to get a batch going. I see many DIY reactors that just seem a bit of overkill.

Thanks again:)

[sjm817]

My sump sits on a bench with the 44G Brute next to it. From the bottom or the Brute to the top of the sump is ~ 5'. I use a Reef Fanatic dual float switch for the topoff controller and 2 Aqualifters back to back for the topoff pump. I need to use 2 because one wont pump 5'. The Reef Fanatic is plugged into my ACIII controller as an extra fail safe. If the pH goes above 8.35, it shuts off the topoff and sends me an email. When I mix up a batch of Kalk, I just give it a good stir with a length of PVC.

For you, you could use the smaller 30G Brute if you want. The LMIII could go either in the basement or in the stand, whatever works out better,

[Dustin1300]

I'm thinking just go ahead and get the 44 gallon brute so I have the extra volume as I plan on upgrading to a larger tank once I buy my next house next spring/summer. The LMIII will work best upstairs just in case I end up using two part in addition to the kalk. That way the external pumps can easily be linked without modifications. Would like to get an ACIII down the road to or the junior so I have something that e-mails me on the phone:) I'm an electronics freak (Engineer for VoIP telephony) so I'd love to have the data to evaluate my system over a long period of time. Would be something like evaluation a PerfMon from a server;)

[Dustin1300]

As far as Kalk it seems that BRS has a great price on the kalk (http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/store/products/calcium-alkalinity-magnesium/kalkwasser-calcium-hydroxide/5-gallons-bulk-kalkwasser-calcium-hydroxide-for-aquariums.html). Has anyone used this in the past? Have you been really satisfied with the quality of it?

Thanks again RCers!

[jdieck]

On supplementation I would say that at the end it almost becomes a matter of personal preference and convenience. Cost wise there seems to be what looks like a significant gap between using aquarium commercial products and using non-aquarium products.

A) Two part supplements:
If you are into saving as much as you can, nothing will beat using non-aquarium products like Ms Wages Kalk or DIY two (three) part solution using Magflake, Dow Flake and Baking Soda. Just note that although cost is a pro, there is a con in the form of increased risk and less convenience.
So far these product have proven reliable but not a single manufacturer is or will be willing to assure any quality control in those products and given the manufacturing process there is always a good chance of getting Ammonia in the flake products. Ms Wages has in occasion leaves some unidentified brownish residue.
Also; and this is true for all two parts, there seems to be, judging by the posts in the chemistry forum for a higher difficulty in maintaining stable levels and higher chance of over or under dosing.
Commercial aquarium two part supplements will reduce the risk of contamination but will increase the cost.
Finally two part supplements may affect the ionic balance between sodium, chloride and sulfate if used for a long time without proper water changes.

B) Kalk dripping:
This can be one of the cheapest ways of supplementing if using a simple drip jug using a food Kalk like Ms Wages.
Addition of a reactor, dose pump and top off plus timers will increase the initial investment.
Unfortunately Kalk addition has a limitation. As it replaces the evaporation, the maximum amount of calcium and alkalinity to be added is limited by the amount of daily evaporation in the tank (see chart below). In my experience, although Kalk can cope with the consumption of a lightly loaded or softies tank, I yet have not seen an sps loaded tank that do not require a second form of supplementation.
http://reef.diesyst.com/pics/Evaporation.gif

C) Calcium Reactor:
A properly set up reactor is by far the most convenient of the supplementation methods and the one that might have the highest capacity for addition.
Although on a per unit of alkalinity the reactor media is the cheapest of the supplements, the initial cost of the reactor and peripherals makes the overall system more expensive for small to medium size systems.
In addition to the initial cost, a calcium reactor usually will require more experience to achieve the proper set up and trouble free operation.

Which one to use??
There are basically two factors that affect the decision, convenience and cost.
convenience wise if addition every two or three days is not an issue and the system is relatively small (a nano) a two part commercial or DIY additive will be convenient (if not basically the only alternative), as the tank gets larger and consumption increase, preparing the supplements and having to dose daily can turn into an undesirable chore so automation starts to get into the picture which now starts increasing the cost of two part or kalk addition but increasing the convenience for the aquarist.

Cost wise there are two factors that define the overall operational cost, the size of the system and the daily consumption

Although precise definition of costs is extremely difficult given the different products, sources equipment and peripherals designs and their costs below there is a chart that shows the approximate average annual cost for different supplementation methods for a 55 gallon system. Again the break even points between the methods can swing significantly depending on specific media and equipment sources and the "fanciness" of the set ups.
http://reef.diesyst.com/pics/cost55.gif
Note that the least costly option will be to get some Ms Wages Kalk and drip a kalk mix using a basically zero cost plastic jug and an air hose (Green line). At about a consumption of 2 dKh per day the required evaporation (around 1.75% of tank volume) may start limiting the amount of supplementation that can be added. So in that case changing to the next less costly alternative, the manual addition of a DIY supplement, will be required (blue line).
Automating the addition of two part (Orange line) will increase it cost but not as high as what the cost would be by automating the lime addition using a Kalk reactor (Purple line). Note that Kalk could be automated without the use of a reactor (line not shown), the cost of this automation will be very similar if not cheaper than the automation of a two part dosing system so if not using a Kalk reactor, automating Kalk addition will be cheaper than automating two part addition.
In either of the Kalk cases at about 2 dKh of consumption another supplementation method shall be considered, in this case the automation of the two part addition.
Finally in this case cost wise a calcium reactor will be the most expensive alternative and if elected might be for the added convenience and why not a bit for the love of aquarium toys :D
So for a 55 gal system potentially dripping Kalk, manual addition or automating a DIY are good alternatives
Now if we increase the size of the system to say 120 gallons the comparison may look a bit different.
http://reef.diesyst.com/pics/cost120.gif
For a system this size automation is almost granted so no comparison is made with dripping Kalk or manual DIY additions but rather comparing automated Kalk reservoir, automated DIY two part, automated Kalk reactor and automated calcium reactor.
First thing to notice that a Randy style Kalk reservoir with a doser pump and top off will be the lowest cost alternative up to the level were evaporation does not allow for higher addition.
If there is no room for a Kalk reservoir the automating two part solution is the alternative but note that it become more expensive than a Kalk reactor at a consumption of only 0.9 dKh which is an unusually low consumption so in this case a Kalk reactor seems to be the logical alternative.
Finally if this is a heavy loaded system and the consumption exceeds 2 dKh per day the alternative will be the calcium reactor.
So for a system this size with light to medium consumption automation of a Kalk reservoir or a Kalk reactor will be the alternative and for a heavy loaded system a properly sized calcium reactor is granted and will not be a luxury.

[James77]

jdieck,

In the 2nd cost example- the 120 gallon- do you know what the cost it figures the DIY 2-part at? It seems rather high. A couple 5 gallon buckets from BRS of soda ash and calcium would cost half of the $350 annual cost the chart is quoting at 3 dkh/day- and it would leave you with plenty extra leftover. Thats of course assuming my quick math had no flaws :).

[biecacka]

i dose kalk thru a 5 gallon jug that drips into sump and also serves as an ATO. works for me. btw cheap as it gets
corey

[jdieck]

jdieck,

In the 2nd cost example- the 120 gallon- do you know what the cost it figures the DIY 2-part at? It seems rather high. A couple 5 gallon buckets from BRS of soda ash and calcium would cost half of the $350 annual cost the chart is quoting at 3 dkh/day- and it would leave you with plenty extra leftover. Thats of course assuming my quick math had no flaws :).

At the time I made the calculation:

Cost of DIY CaCl enough for 1 gal supplement = $4.16 (Now it is around $3.50)
Cost of DIY Sodium Carbonate for 1 gal supplement = $4.16 (Now it is around $3.50)
Shipping and handling = $2.61

Total supplement (DIY 1) per gallon of two part = $10.93
Consumption = 71.40 ml to increase 1 dKh in 1 gal
Cost per dKh per gallon = 0.2062 cents
Cost per dKh in 120 gallons = 24.75 cents
Cost per year per dKh in 120 gallons = $90.32 USD

The calculation also assumes that the system is automated with dual dosing pump at an initial cost of $360.00 amortized over 5 years for a per year equipment cost of $72.00

So the total assumption for 3 dKh per day of consumption comes to 72+90.32x3= $392.46

In any case and as I mention in the previous post, the precise definition of costs is extremely difficult given the different products, sources equipment, price changes over time, volume purchase vs retail and peripherals designs and their costs so do not take the precise cost calculation at heart and use the charts more for reference in learning the variables involved in comparing one method to the other because the intersection points will move to the left or right depending in your particular circumstances.
Once familiar with the differences you will be in a better position to make your own cost/benfit comparison in more detail.

Enjoy!
Jose

[sjm817]

Sounds like a good plan. The ACjr doesn't have an Ethernet port/web server. You need the ACIII or the new Apex.

[Dustin1300]

jdiek,

Thanks for the pros/cons and breakdown of pricing. At this point I think I'm still going to stick with the kalk and see how happy I am with it. (As well as my coral) I have no SPS at the moment and it would still be a relatively new adventure for me so my tank does not demand a ton of calcium. In the future I could see that a calcium reactor would be the best bet but right now I don't really have the space under the stand.

[Dustin1300]

Sounds like a good plan. The ACjr doesn't have an Ethernet port/web server. You need the ACIII or the new Apex.

I've not yet done a lot of research on the controllers but I've just recently started putting the investments needed to be serious about the hobby. :lolspin:

Buying the controller would most likely not come until the end of the summer but for now I can get the kalk/LiterMeter III/Brute. Once I get them in place I'll start picking up a good amount of SPS frags. I've got a local reefer that has a good selection of SPS frags for a very good price:) They also look ten times better than any LFS has around here! Closest place to me now with good coral is Premium Aquatics!

Anyways, I believe I've gotten all the information I need at this point and have a good plan of how I will supplement the coral with the alk/calcium they need. In the past I just would manually add the supplements but the new plans will help to keep them more stable and AUTOMATED.

Thanks everyone for your input as it has been greatly appreciated.