PDA

View Full Version : Who has had ich and........


RBU1
05/04/2010, 03:41 AM
Who has had ich and just let nature take its course? I am really just curious to see how many people have had ich in their tanks and have done nothing about it. I would like to hear what the outcome was. When I had my 75 gallon set up I never QT'd anything. My yellow tang had ich but it would come and go and it never seemed to bother the fish. All I did was keep feeding well and kept the water quality as good as possible. The fish went thru a tank breakdown and move and still did fine in its new home. So lets hear the stories from those that had ich and did nothing about it.....

flameangel9
05/04/2010, 06:10 AM
I have a 180 reef and won't think of tearing it apart and chasing sick fish around only to stuff them into tight quarters in hopes of them getting better.
Its run its course. No ick has been seen in some time. I kept up on water changes and feed heavy when when it happened. I've done this on more than one tank without losses.

RBU1
05/04/2010, 06:29 AM
Yeah well I am starting to think like you....Getting real frustrated with this hobby...I have been treating and QTing all my fish with Prazi Pro and Cuprmaine....No fish has been in QT for less than 6-7 weeks and Friday I moved my male crosshatch over from the 125 to the 300 main tank after being in QT since March 4th....And yesterday I noticed he has ich on him.....I give up....I will still continue to QT everything but I am done with giving a crap. I guess nature wins!!!!!

swifty
05/04/2010, 07:21 AM
i also have a 180 reef with several tangs they all get a touch of ick from time to time and other than garlic i do all things as normal and it seems to run its course

glaukos
05/04/2010, 01:08 PM
in my old 75 i never qtned anything and everything went ok
no loses
they got ick from time to time but after the first time which was the worst
the following where easy
total of 10 fishes

in my 125 though things where not so good
my fisrt 7-8 fish got through it but for 6-7 months EVERY fish i bought got ick and died
the same time the old ones had NOT even a single spot

RBU1
05/04/2010, 01:22 PM
I spoke to a person this morning that I trust in this hobby. I explained to him how I thought I was doing everything right and to still get ich just really frustrates the heck out of me....He feels that because I have been Qting the fish and getting them stronger they stand a good chance of fighting it off.....I can tell you I am not tearing that 300 down again to remove all the fish for a THIRD time!!!!!! From now on whatever happens, happens....I will still QT but don't think I will treat unless they need it. During my other QT periods I was treating everything with Cuprmaine and PraziPro.

khaosinc
05/04/2010, 01:25 PM
I tried so hard when I first set up my tank..... ended up with it anyway. I couldn't tear down my tank at this point if I wanted to, but everyone has made it so far.

dun2run
05/04/2010, 02:11 PM
I just had the same problem. Tank had ich, took fish out for 2 months, treated new fish with cupramine, everything looked great in QT. After the blue hippo went in, TA DAAAAA! After a few days there it was again. But she is fat and healthy as can be. And I to, am definitely not pulling all the rock out of my tank again. Way more stress than its worth.

One more thing, the blue tang will have only 2-3 spots on her every other day, but they will be in different places. Its almost like I wont see the same spot everyday so I guess she is fighting it off.??

glaukos
05/04/2010, 05:10 PM
did you put the blue hippo to the DT without treatment?

your old fish that were QTned showed any signs of ick?

shawna1972
05/04/2010, 08:38 PM
Ok well I have to chime in from my own exp. when I first started I had Ich show up 3 times back then I had no idea what a Qt was nor that one was needed. I tried several methods of treating the fish in fear of stressing them out to get them out of my 125.

Hypo first choice........Great choice if you have exp doing hypo but for me I lost the fish bringing the salinity up to fast.

Reef safe meds hahahaha joke.......Tried kick ich,lifeguard,chem marins stop parasite ect..

and finally fed really well,kept up on water changes,tried garlic soaked foods,beta gluten,ginger root mixed,vitaminc everything I could throw at it...

All these methods I lost every fish (10) in all. Will I ever go back to not using a Qt....Never! It was the saddest thing watching these fish die one by one! I finally talked to someone a few years back regarding a qt tank and since then I have not seen Ich in my tank! My fish are healthy and I never have to worry about them getting stressed and coming down with Ich.
If it were not for the Qt tank I would have quit the hobby!
I personally think taking a fish out and putting them in qt is way less stress than fighting the parasite! and I personally think its our responsibility to treat this fish when they have parasites. This is just MO, not attacking anyone :) Everyone has their own way of doing things and Im just giving my exp from having not treated fish with Ich

As Far as the fish having Ich after 8 weeks in cupramine ? Are you sure the cupramine didnt fall below the correct level? or that you didnt contaminate the Qt with your display water "If Ich was present in your display?" Very odd!
And yes that would get me really upset but I dont know if Id say screw the Qt ? Anyhow sorry about your luck,This hobby is not easy and it sucks when you try to do the best thing and have to think about leaving the fish because what a pain the the a$$ it is to start over but personally me I would tear my 180 apart in a sec if it ever got back into my display. Again that's just MO but good luck whatever you decide to do.:)

Jdbrine
05/04/2010, 10:31 PM
Ok well I have to chime in from my own exp. when I first started I had Ich show up 3 times back then I had no idea what a Qt was nor that one was needed. I tried several methods of treating the fish in fear of stressing them out to get them out of my 125.

Hypo first choice........Great choice if you have exp doing hypo but for me I lost the fish bringing the salinity up to fast.

Reef safe meds hahahaha joke.......Tried kick ich,lifeguard,chem marins stop parasite ect..

and finally fed really well,kept up on water changes,tried garlic soaked foods,beta gluten,ginger root mixed,vitaminc everything I could throw at it...

All these methods I lost every fish (10) in all. Will I ever go back to not using a Qt....Never! It was the saddest thing watching these fish die one by one! I finally talked to someone a few years back regarding a qt tank and since then I have not seen Ich in my tank! My fish are healthy and I never have to worry about them getting stressed and coming down with Ich.
If it were not for the Qt tank I would have quit the hobby!
I personally think taking a fish out and putting them in qt is way less stress than fighting the parasite! and I personally think its our responsibility to treat this fish when they have parasites. This is just MO, not attacking anyone :) Everyone has their own way of doing things and Im just giving my exp from having not treated fish with Ich

As Far as the fish having Ich after 8 weeks in cupramine ? Are you sure the cupramine didnt fall below the correct level? or that you didnt contaminate the Qt with your display water "If Ich was present in your display?" Very odd!
And yes that would get me really upset but I dont know if Id say screw the Qt ? Anyhow sorry about your luck,This hobby is not easy and it sucks when you try to do the best thing and have to think about leaving the fish because what a pain the the a$$ it is to start over but personally me I would tear my 180 apart in a sec if it ever got back into my display. Again that's just MO but good luck whatever you decide to do.:)

+1..... I agree 100%

Monster00101
05/04/2010, 10:42 PM
I never qtd anything and then i qtd my trigger and tang at the same time. (from the lfs) After 6 weeks i put my trigger in my display tank and the next day my tang had ich he died a couple days later and the trigger has never had a problem or anything else in the tank. Is there a chance of ich in my display? its been 3 months and nothing.

RBU1
05/05/2010, 03:52 AM
shawna, I used to agree with you 100% but I am now to the point of saying screw it.....I never saw a spot on any of the fish I had in QT and most of them were in QT for at least 8 weeks treated with Cuprmaine for 4 of the 8. Don't get me wrong I am still going to QT but I am not treating with anything unless I see a need. I figure maybe the only thing I will get out of QT is making the fish strong enough to be able to fight off ich if that is indeed whats in my main tank. In my 300 I have a hybrid blue angel, 2 black and white clowns, multi colored pygmy angel, coris wrasse and the male crosshatch. Every fish has been thru a QT with Cupramine maintained at .5 for 4 weeks and a prazipro treatment and have been in QT for at least 8 weeks. I was anal about my QT method and made sure nothing I used on my QT came near my main tank. Every fish, except the crosshatch, has been in that main tank for at least 2 months and I never saw a spot of anything on a single fish. I add the crosshatch last Friday and he has something all over his head and a couple spots on his body.....I will post some pictures later today....It is extremly frustrating to say the least. Will I be breaking down the 300 for a third time to remove fish NO WAY!!!!!! This time I am letting nature take its course and if I get to frustrated again I will be selling my system and calling it quit's....

khaosinc
05/05/2010, 04:12 AM
that was my problem as well. When I set my first tank up I was pretty new and used to fresh water tanks. When it failed and I ordered my current tank and had my other one torn down, all my fish were treated, and everything else was fishless for ages. No trouble with the new tank until I think I cross contaminated it when I was QTing a couple of tangs.

I physically can't tear down my tank anymore, so I'm hoping for the best. Everything has looked good and pulled through so far but I've gotten lucky.

disciple
05/05/2010, 05:20 AM
My pair of clowns got ich when I set up my tank 2 years ago. I was advised by an awesome LFS owner to drop the salinity level to about 1.020 and just let the tank and fish fight the infection. I do believe I treated their food with garlic. The ich went away and haven't seen it since.

RBU1
05/05/2010, 08:19 AM
My pair of clowns got ich when I set up my tank 2 years ago. I was advised by an awesome LFS owner to drop the salinity level to about 1.020 and just let the tank and fish fight the infection. I do believe I treated their food with garlic. The ich went away and haven't seen it since.

I might try this....I was under the impression that lowering the salinity aids in how the fish move oxygen across the gills. Not sure if I have that right but thats what I think. So a lower salinity helps with oxygen and might help with stress.. The only thing I am unsure about is how low can I go with inverts and corals. I might slowly lower things and keep an eye on how the inverts and corals react. I am still up in the air on this....

shawna1972
05/05/2010, 09:15 AM
shawna, I used to agree with you 100% but I am now to the point of saying screw it.....I never saw a spot on any of the fish I had in QT and most of them were in QT for at least 8 weeks treated with Cuprmaine for 4 of the 8. Don't get me wrong I am still going to QT but I am not treating with anything unless I see a need. I figure maybe the only thing I will get out of QT is making the fish strong enough to be able to fight off ich if that is indeed whats in my main tank. In my 300 I have a hybrid blue angel, 2 black and white clowns, multi colored pygmy angel, coris wrasse and the male crosshatch. Every fish has been thru a QT with Cupramine maintained at .5 for 4 weeks and a prazipro treatment and have been in QT for at least 8 weeks. I was anal about my QT method and made sure nothing I used on my QT came near my main tank. Every fish, except the crosshatch, has been in that main tank for at least 2 months and I never saw a spot of anything on a single fish. I add the crosshatch last Friday and he has something all over his head and a couple spots on his body.....I will post some pictures later today....It is extremly frustrating to say the least. Will I be breaking down the 300 for a third time to remove fish NO WAY!!!!!! This time I am letting nature take its course and if I get to frustrated again I will be selling my system and calling it quit's....


First let me say I agree 100% with you also and it is (Frustrating) and you did everything you should have not to bring disease or parasites into the display and it really sucks when this happens! I personally would be devestated!
I currently have a long nosed butterfly in Qt at the moment with Prazi for black Ich "Cant remember the correct name) but anyhow I did a really stupid mistake and (may) Have to tear my 180 apart sometime soon?
I was acclimating my butterfly on the ledge of my 180, its in wall so I have a ledge and I was using the drip method well it over filled enough to let the water run out over the top and the water got over my ledge and into my sump undereath "Which goes into my display" was it enough water to do any harm???????? Dont know!
Point being, I like you,tried to do everything by the book and It took one STUPID mistake on my part! I am so mad and at the same time can only blame myself! So time being I am watching the fish in my display for signs and trying to keep the Long nosed butterfly healthy!
Seems like you did everything correct and no cross contamination so Im stumped! as I only keep my my fish in cupramine for 2 weeks and Prazi for 2 weeks and all fish are Ich free. 4 weeks of Prazi should have been more than enough time. This maybe a dumb question but are you sure it's Ich?

RBU1
05/05/2010, 09:49 AM
No such thing as a dumb question....I willpost some pictures. I would say I am almost certain.

WDLV
05/05/2010, 09:53 AM
Ok well I have to chime in from my own exp. when I first started I had Ich show up 3 times back then I had no idea what a Qt was nor that one was needed. I tried several methods of treating the fish in fear of stressing them out to get them out of my 125.

Hypo first choice........Great choice if you have exp doing hypo but for me I lost the fish bringing the salinity up to fast.

Reef safe meds hahahaha joke.......Tried kick ich,lifeguard,chem marins stop parasite ect..

and finally fed really well,kept up on water changes,tried garlic soaked foods,beta gluten,ginger root mixed,vitaminc everything I could throw at it...

All these methods I lost every fish (10) in all. Will I ever go back to not using a Qt....Never! It was the saddest thing watching these fish die one by one! I finally talked to someone a few years back regarding a qt tank and since then I have not seen Ich in my tank! My fish are healthy and I never have to worry about them getting stressed and coming down with Ich.
If it were not for the Qt tank I would have quit the hobby!
I personally think taking a fish out and putting them in qt is way less stress than fighting the parasite! and I personally think its our responsibility to treat this fish when they have parasites. This is just MO, not attacking anyone :) Everyone has their own way of doing things and Im just giving my exp from having not treated fish with Ich

As Far as the fish having Ich after 8 weeks in cupramine ? Are you sure the cupramine didnt fall below the correct level? or that you didnt contaminate the Qt with your display water "If Ich was present in your display?" Very odd!
And yes that would get me really upset but I dont know if Id say screw the Qt ? Anyhow sorry about your luck,This hobby is not easy and it sucks when you try to do the best thing and have to think about leaving the fish because what a pain the the a$$ it is to start over but personally me I would tear my 180 apart in a sec if it ever got back into my display. Again that's just MO but good luck whatever you decide to do.:)

+1 more.

If I were more of a coral-holic I might feel differently but for me corals are more for decoration than anything else. Some of my fish are so rare that I would crash the system and lose every coral in it before I would even consider letting them die. I don't know your methods and will not claim to have read every line in this thread but if you're not quarrantining everything wet you will always run a greater risk of introducing a pathogen.

There is something to be said for doing everything you can to boost a fish's immune system and provide a stress free environment but this is IMO something that should be done hand in hand with proper quarrantine. The world's public aquariums don't utilize these procedures for nothing.

fishychris
05/05/2010, 10:26 AM
Very interesting to hear everyone's stories. I agree that most of the time you just have to let nature take its course. I do qt but that's it. It's been about 3 years since I have used cupramine (http://allmypetsupplies.com/p-532-cupramine.aspx) and prazipro (http://allmypetsupplies.com/p-1101-prazipro.aspx). And that was a really BAD case of ich and I had lost 5 already. Other than that, nature is the way to go.

Kungpaoshizi
05/05/2010, 10:42 AM
Elevating temp to 86 works wonders...
I think it's, 86 ich can't attach to fish and 89 ich dies (eggs too)
Otherwise I've heard hypo salinity works as well.
I would consider both methods "natural" /shrug
I'm sure there's places in the ocean you could find both of those scenarios

RBU1
05/05/2010, 10:51 AM
OK here are my most recent pictures of the crosshatch in my main tank. The first shot showing his head. He has some indentations that from a fellow RC members thoughts its wounds from rubbing his head on the PVC while in QT. But the other white spots you see I think with great certainty are ich....

THe second photo I took when I got home from work yesterday....The white patch I have no idea what it could be...My assumption is an injury from the rock in the tank...But the way my luck is going who knows!!!!!

http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj149/rbu1/Fish%20Tanks/crosshatchich.jpg

http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj149/rbu1/Fish%20Tanks/Crosshatchspot.jpg

WDLV
05/05/2010, 10:51 AM
Elevating temp to 86 works wonders...
I think it's, 86 ich can't attach to fish and 89 ich dies (eggs too)
Otherwise I've heard hypo salinity works as well.
I would consider both methods "natural" /shrug
I'm sure there's places in the ocean you could find both of those scenarios

Now that's news to me. Got any links?

RBU1
05/05/2010, 10:54 AM
Here is a pic of my hybrid blue angel that went thru 10 weeks of QT.....4 weeks of Cuprmaine at .5 and 2 PraziPro treatments....

He has been in the main tank for about 2 months and has not had a spot on him. He did have some white patches on his fins when I put him in the main tank but fellow reefers felt they were scares from the flukes.....

http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj149/rbu1/Fish%20Tanks/photo3.jpg

WDLV
05/05/2010, 10:55 AM
At this point in the game I would leave it for a couple days and see how it goes. Go with some medicated foods and if there's any change for the worse it'll be time to make a decision.

Kungpaoshizi
05/05/2010, 11:29 AM
this is what I followed after finding the same generalities in other write-ups..
http://www.thepufferforum.com/forum/library/hospital/fwich/
I didn't follow the salt dosing, just the temp, and kept it at 86 for a total of 15 days I think it was?
This was when I was in the mid brackish region, so it was FW ich and I'm sure the salt had something to do with it, but it seems the tempature/lifecycle breakdown remains true.
I would imagine raising temps may be the best for a reef/fish tank?
But I guess it would depend upon how well the inhabitants handle 86 degrees.
Anyone know if corals etc can handle 86 for a 2 week period?

RBU1
05/05/2010, 11:34 AM
I would not want to add any more stress to the situation. Its bad enough on the crosshatch that I am in the 78 degree range. They are a deepwater fish and ideally would prefer a cooler temp. My plan is to feed well and keep my water quality good. Try to keep things as good as possible and hope for the best.

WDLV
05/05/2010, 11:41 AM
I don't think what will work for FW ick will necessairly work (reliably) with SW ick. They are two different diseases that look the same while they are attached to the fish.

RBU1
05/05/2010, 04:02 PM
Home from work....Maybe a little improvement from yesterday....still eating rather aggressive.....Hopefully a positive sign no other fish showing any spots.

Monster00101
05/05/2010, 04:09 PM
The temp change wont work on saltwater ich. But it works great on freshwater.

Ninjapotamus
05/05/2010, 04:47 PM
2 yellow tangs/blue hippo/powderblue/powderbrown tangs all had signs of ich. put them all in quarentene and treated with cupramine. it seemed to help the ich but the fish got sick and stopped eating. didnt totally eliminate the ich either. powder brown stopped eating and just up and died.

decided it wasnt worth it and put them all in a newly setup 110 gallon display tank. Did frequent water changes and also ran UV/micron filtration. 5 months later all tangs are fat and healthy. blue hippo tang has a spot of ich once in a while but then it goes away. others appear to be clean.

Untamed12
05/05/2010, 05:22 PM
Getting back to the origin of this thread....

I add myself to the list of people whose fish have ich...all the time...and live with it. It seems that my achilles and ABT are the only ones to show symptoms, which they show to various degrees all the time. My yellow tang, Nasos, clowns, foxface, wrasse, blue throat trigger and goby seem completely immune to it.

It has been like that for over three years now. I hear that it might burn itself out, but that hasn't happened yet.

So...I'm of the opinion that ich is not an automatic death sentence for any fish. It may not be the right course of action for everyone or every fish..but it seems to have been correct for me and my fish.

ptr13
05/05/2010, 06:39 PM
I really feel that tangs are ick magnets,I have taken the approach of not qt the rest of my tank,only the ones that are breathing heavily and need special attention. I am just using hypo on the other fishes that are really covered with white spots but the rest of my display,been feeding them ocean nutrition seaweed with garlic,they love it. My tangs and wrasses go crazy at least three times a day on each sheet by 3 inch by 2 inch on a veggie clip. I am also discovering that my salinity was a bit high,another reason they were stressed,bought a refractometer today and discovered it was at .030,wow. So I had to lower it slowly to .027 and my goal is to reach .024 and .025 by next week,asked vivid aquarium about it and they stated that it may be a contributing factor and a good reason too that salinity should be lower so I could save on salt on a big system at 305 gallon total water volume. I also felt that everything was not in place in this latest upgrade from a 125 to a 225,my biological filtration was not up to par so I hope to fix the problem with a 58 gallon I turned into a plenum/refugium to stabilize the whole tank. I hope that ick will go away and I have a few more weeks left on its cycle which is 8 weeks,giving it two just to make sure no one else gets sick because ick will be still on the rocks and sand. So far the blue,sailfin and yellow tang are recovering with less spots everyday,gladly that wrasses are not ick magnets,also running uv sterilizer to cut the cycle down of the disease and hoping that increasing water quality will help cure everyone.

marc price
05/05/2010, 11:59 PM
+1 more.

If I were more of a coral-holic I might feel differently but for me corals are more for decoration than anything else. Some of my fish are so rare that I would crash the system and lose every coral in it before I would even consider letting them die. I don't know your methods and will not claim to have read every line in this thread but if you're not quarrantining everything wet you will always run a greater risk of introducing a pathogen.

There is something to be said for doing everything you can to boost a fish's immune system and provide a stress free environment but this is IMO something that should be done hand in hand with proper quarrantine. The world's public aquariums don't utilize these procedures for nothing.

Well said Walt!

marc price
05/06/2010, 12:14 AM
It has been like that for over three years now. I hear that it might burn itself out, but that hasn't happened yet.

I'm curious, have you not added any fish, inverts and live foods for a year during the three year period?
Afaik, the theory is that it weakens to the point of the life cycle breaking down if no other strain of ich is present for a period of roughly ten months after the outbreak. Again i haven't read of long term studies putting it to the test, and certainly aren't about to call one case conclusive prof one way or the other.

RBU1
05/06/2010, 08:23 AM
+1 more.

If I were more of a coral-holic I might feel differently but for me corals are more for decoration than anything else. Some of my fish are so rare that I would crash the system and lose every coral in it before I would even consider letting them die. I don't know your methods and will not claim to have read every line in this thread but if you're not quarrantining everything wet you will always run a greater risk of introducing a pathogen.

There is something to be said for doing everything you can to boost a fish's immune system and provide a stress free environment but this is IMO something that should be done hand in hand with proper quarrantine. The world's public aquariums don't utilize these procedures for nothing.

Yes it was well said....However you know Marc, I have been following the QT process and treatment process to a "T".....So I was doing a "proper" QT and still have an issue....Maybe there is something underlying we are missing.....Who knows....Nature does some mysterious things...I know you feel strongly about ich is not always present you have to introduce it. Well maybe there is a way ich is always present....WHO KNOWS.....at this point I give up!!!! I will let nature take its course, and as mentioned before I will continue to QT fish but will not treat. My hope is to built up the strength of the fish while in QT to help them fight off what might be in my main tank.

WDLV
05/06/2010, 08:45 AM
I get your frustration. No one process is perfect and there is always the possibility of something slipping by. Particularly with regard to those paracites that can attach to the gills of the fish and lie more or less dormant or those that live in the gut. I personally do not use meds unless absolutely necessary but I almost always have new introductions go through hypo as part of their quarrantine.
All in all you sound like you're doing everything you can. The only other thing I will say (because I didn't see it posted anywhere) was that quarrantine is not a set 30,60 or 90 days. If your fish show signs of a disease they need to be essentially re-quarrantined for the entire duration starting the day that they are without symptoms. A lot of people do not have the determination to do that. I am sometimes one of them but I have also had fish in quarrantine for 6 to 12 months. A. nigripes is just such an example.

I really don't think ick is always present. Its life cycle has been shown not to live more than 50-some days. So, at 60 days you should be in the clear. Particularly if you have been treating with cupramine. The problem we have is that we as hobbyists have a different definition of what it means to be ick free. We're only looking at the exterior of the fish because we generally don't have the equipment or the know how to look at the fish's gills.

I personally have not had to deal with an "outbreak" in about 2-3 years, but most of my animals have been in separate systems that entire time. You don't have that luxury.

I've rambled on long enough. The point was supposed to be that I think you're doing the best you can and to tell you to just stick with whatever your plan of action happens to be. We're usually in the most danger when we make rash decisions that are off course with our game plans.


Good luck!

RBU1
05/06/2010, 08:58 AM
Thanks Walt.
I understand and will do my best to stick with my plan. Even though my main tank is now infected and the thought will always be in the back of my head, I guess I just have to live with it and hope my fish can fight thru it.

sedor
05/06/2010, 09:08 AM
I have let nature take its course with ich a few times and it always works! I'm not going to give my .02 on the matter because it seems like many others have taken care of that, but I have been advocating not treating ich for some time and I still feel strongly about it.

RBU1
05/06/2010, 09:15 AM
I have let nature take its course with ich a few times and it always works! I'm not going to give my .02 on the matter because it seems like many others have taken care of that, but I have been advocating not treating ich for some time and I still feel strongly about it.

I hope your right Sedor......I will keep everyone posted.....

ddcengineering
05/06/2010, 10:22 AM
I have had Ich in my aquarium before. and do not have a problem with it any longer. My philosophy was fish wont get sick if their immune system is up, and stress is down. so when i feed, i had a few drops of garlic juice, it encourages eating and garlic also improves the immune system. healthy fish are happy fish.

RegalAngel
05/06/2010, 11:18 AM
I have had Ich in my aquarium before. and do not have a problem with it any longer. My philosophy was fish wont get sick if their immune system is up, and stress is down. so when i feed, i had a few drops of garlic juice, it encourages eating and garlic also improves the immune system. healthy fish are happy fish.

Unfortunately, this is NOT a virus but a parasite for which no immunity exists.
It might help the fish survive longer for them to be very healthy but the parasites will multiply and soon the fishes will be overwhelmed by many parasites.

Fast action is necessary to avoid a catastrophe in these cases to keep Ich in check, otherwise the fish will not survive. Treatment is the answer, and there are many available to kill Ich, and some are reef safe.

marc price
05/06/2010, 11:26 AM
Hey vodka guy, be careful with that 0.02% in China, Estonia, Poland, Norway, Sweden and Puerto Rico (for drivers 18-20 years old).

Alright, enough kidding (yourselves ??), i've been at this sport a very long time. I've researched, read scientific papers spoke at length more than once to renownd DVM's with public aquaria, have worked with large scale installation and maintenance outfits so have seen and or experienced all of the scenarios many times over, i know how they go and quite frankly debating the topic with internet personas i know nothing or little of bores me.

You people and i'm not directing this at Bill, who want to assert survival of the fittest tactics and think you're on to something then for all of our sakes establish guidelines and be very specific of all details of your systems and practices - i.e., include vital information such as: LxWxH, size of display tank, % of open swimming space, total # of gallons, numbers, size and species of fish along with dates of purchase/release into your display tank, inverts present and their numbers, plus number of tank set ups in the household and frequency of new fish, introductions of live food sources e.g. lv brine shrimp, clams, mussels etc., dates and frequency (i'm sure i missed a few). "Maybe", then we can get a baseline pattern of your success and failures. That is if you've enough years of long term success to back up any of your claims. And please spare me the rational, because i disagree doesn't mean i don't get it, i'd like to see this move up a level.
And again well i can't promise i'll participate further, at least we'll be getting somewhere past the he said she said therefor it must be mentality.

RBU1
05/06/2010, 11:42 AM
Unfortunately, this is NOT a virus but a parasite for which no immunity exists.
It might help the fish survive longer for them to be very healthy but the parasites will multiply and soon the fishes will be overwhelmed by many parasites.

Fast action is necessary to avoid a catastrophe in these cases to keep Ich in check, otherwise the fish will not survive. Treatment is the answer, and there are many available to kill Ich, and some are reef safe.


You lost all credibility to me when you said there are reef safe treatments that work....

RBU1
05/06/2010, 11:49 AM
Hey vodka guy, be careful with that 0.02% in China, Estonia, Poland, Norway, Sweden and Puerto Rico (for drivers 18-20 years old).

Alright, enough kidding (yourselves ??), i've been at this sport a very long time. I've researched, read scientific papers spoke at length more than once to renownd DVM's with public aquaria, have worked with large scale installation and maintenance outfits so have seen and or experienced all of the scenarios many times over, i know how they go and quite frankly debating the topic with internet personas i know nothing or little of bores me.

You people and i'm not directing this at Bill, who want to assert survival of the fittest tactics and think you're on to something then for all of our sakes establish guidelines and be very specific of all details of your systems and practices - i.e., include vital information such as: LxWxH, size of display tank, % of open swimming space, total # of gallons, numbers, size and species of fish along with dates of purchase/release into your display tank, inverts present and their numbers, plus number of tank set ups in the household and frequency of new fish, introductions of live food sources e.g. lv brine shrimp, clams, mussels etc., dates and frequency (i'm sure i missed a few). "Maybe", then we can get a baseline pattern of your success and failures. That is if you've enough years of long term success to back up any of your claims. And please spare me the rational, because i disagree doesn't mean i don't get it, i'd like to see this move up a level.
And again well i can't promise i'll participate further, at least we'll be getting somewhere past the he said she said therefor it must be mentality.

Hi Marc,,,

Marc and I have had several discussions about QT and proper procudures. Marc is also aware of how I feel right now knowing my current situation. Call me the guinnea pig.....But I now know my main tank has ich....Even after doing "the right" thing and QTing all my fish.....That being said I will see what happens if I do nothing but keep my water quality good and feed a good diet......

ddcengineering
05/06/2010, 03:41 PM
ich never leaves, they incubate on fish, and are either in the water column or on the rockwork. i found that as soon as i added garlic juice to my food, the ich went away, and none of my fish ever got it again. i had it for months then started the garlic and never had it again. hope this helps.

ohh and about them being a parasite is true, but as a heatly fish the parasite will less likely attach than to a sick fish.

when a fish is stressed or sick parasites, diseases and such, will "attack" the fish.. keep your fish healthy

stancfii
05/16/2010, 08:30 PM
I tried the "feed well and let nature take its course" method and it did not work for me. As soon as I saw a couple spots on my Kole tang, I started increasing the feedings and soaking the food in garlic. I kept this up for two weeks and finally decided to break down the tank today and qt all fish after losing two and the others in severe distress. The LFS was not open today, so I got some Instant Ocean Lifeguard from Petco just to do something. I will let the DT sit fallow for 2-3 months and use "sterile technique" to qt all current and future fish/coral/inverts.

RBU1
05/17/2010, 04:52 AM
Well my update is so far so good. The only fish in the tank that had spots was the crosshatch. He has since lost all spots and is eating and acting like normal. Hopefully in time the ich will work its way out of te system or the fish will stay healthy enought to continue to fight it off. My female in QT, as of yesterday, is now at full strenght Cuprmaine and will stay that way for 4 weeks. Then I will introduce her to the tank and see what happens.

RBU1
05/17/2010, 05:49 AM
Some recent shots...

http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj149/rbu1/Fish%20Tanks/Crosshatch5-17-10.jpg

http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj149/rbu1/Fish%20Tanks/crosshatch-5-17-10.jpg

http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj149/rbu1/Fish%20Tanks/Angel.jpg

http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj149/rbu1/Fish%20Tanks/Tank1.jpg

Ryno368
05/17/2010, 01:53 PM
hey RBU just a thought, but if your DT has ick already why are you givving the female crosshatch in QT cupramine if i may ask. The reason i say this is because if she goes thru 8 weeks of QT with treatment and not ick then you introduce her to an enviroment with ick AKA your DT then she will have a chance to contract the ick and the cupramine treatment was for no reason.

i retract this whole statement if you are treating with cupramine for any other reason besides ick which i am not aware of it.

i recently had an ick outbreak and instead of breaking down the tank so to speak. I moved all my corals and inverts to a QT tank and used hypo in my DT to combat ick. It has been 4 weeks now and no signs of ick. i will run the DT at hypo for 4 more weeks to be sure the ick is depleted. Also started feeding with garlic everyday.

just my .02 i guess

Ryno368
05/17/2010, 01:54 PM
i forgot to ask where you got the pair of crosshatches and how much did they cost?

RBU1
05/17/2010, 02:20 PM
Ryno...

I understand that QTing a fish and then putting them in a tank with ich could be a waste of time. However.....There are other things that a fish could also have.....Like velvet or a different strain of ich. My thought and thoughts of other people are to still QT and treat all my fish for the reason stated above along with making the fish stronger to hopefully fight off the parasite in the main tank. I paid $300.00 for the female she is real small 3" range and $400.00 for the male he is in the 6" range.

Untamed12
05/17/2010, 05:54 PM
Getting back to the origin of this thread....

I add myself to the list of people whose fish have ich...all the time...and live with it. It seems that my achilles and ABT are the only ones to show symptoms, which they show to various degrees all the time. My yellow tang, Nasos, clowns, foxface, wrasse, blue throat trigger and goby seem completely immune to it.

It has been like that for over three years now. I hear that it might burn itself out, but that hasn't happened yet.

So...I'm of the opinion that ich is not an automatic death sentence for any fish. It may not be the right course of action for everyone or every fish..but it seems to have been correct for me and my fish.

UPDATE: For no reason that I can figure...my achilles has suddenly developed a massive ich outbreak. He is listless...has not eaten for four days. I've FW dipped him twice to see if I could relieve him, but to no effect. So...I may lose him. No other fish in the tank seem affected in any way at the moment.

So...Maybe it will take over three years, but it looks like ich might claim my achilles tang. We'll know in a few days, I suppose.

RBU1
05/17/2010, 06:59 PM
Well did the tank temp change drastically? Any stress in the tank? In my opinion FW dips do more harm then good. They are stressing the fish out even more causing more harm. The time it takes for ich to die in FW is longer than the fish can survive. I wish you the best of luck. It sucks when fish get this crap...

Untamed12
05/17/2010, 11:13 PM
Well did the tank temp change drastically? Any stress in the tank? In my opinion FW dips do more harm then good. They are stressing the fish out even more causing more harm. The time it takes for ich to die in FW is longer than the fish can survive. I wish you the best of luck. It sucks when fish get this crap...

The timer of my halides stuck on, leaving the lights on for 24hrs straight. The tank temp got quite high. That event happened over two weeks ago, though.

The only other thing is that I noticed that my salinity was lower than I like to keep it.

Neither of those two events seemed to have caused any other problems in the tank, but they may have contributed to stress on the fish or somehow changed the population of parasites in the tank.

Neither of those two events is anything that really hasn't happened before and the achilles has never had as much trouble as now. So, they could be nothing more that coincidence.

Gogandantess
05/17/2010, 11:40 PM
UPDATE: For no reason that I can figure...my achilles has suddenly developed a massive ich outbreak. He is listless...has not eaten for four days. I've FW dipped him twice to see if I could relieve him, but to no effect. So...I may lose him. No other fish in the tank seem affected in any way at the moment.

So...Maybe it will take over three years, but it looks like ich might claim my achilles tang. We'll know in a few days, I suppose.

Why don't you put it in QT and treat with copper. That's the fastest relief IMO. Just don't let it die helplessly.

Ryno368
05/18/2010, 12:08 AM
untamed

the salinity dropping would not stress the fish, just food for thought but, the temp increase could

Untamed12
05/18/2010, 09:34 AM
Why don't you put it in QT and treat with copper. That's the fastest relief IMO. Just don't let it die helplessly.

I'm working on that now...

RBU1
05/18/2010, 09:39 AM
Copper is not the fastest...Copper only kills ich in the free floating stage. As long as the ich is attached to the fish it will do nothing. I would research a formalin dip. I am not positive on the formalin so reaseach it a little.

WDLV
05/18/2010, 09:47 AM
Formalin is great for amyloodinium and brooklynella but does little or nothing for ick.

For ick I like copper in conjunction with hypo-salinity (1.009) using a properly calibrated refractometer.

RBU1
05/18/2010, 09:48 AM
Formalin is great for amyloodinium and brooklynella but does little or nothing for ick.

For ick I like copper in conjunction with hypo-salinity (1.009) using a properly calibrated refractometer.

Thats interesting. I was always told never to mix hypo and copper.

So there is really nothing you can do as a quick relief for a fish with ick. I was told FW dips do nothing either...

WDLV
05/18/2010, 10:52 AM
Haha. I didn't talk to the people who said not to do hypo with copper.

The other thing I think is important to do is to switch tanks every day and re-dose. That way the "spores" are removed along with the water that you change out.

Just make sure it's ick and not amyloodinium they look similar. Amyloo is like ick on steroids.

RBU1
05/18/2010, 10:57 AM
The quick research I just did tells me Formalin will work for ich. HUM!!!!

Formaldehype is most effective at ridding fish of common parasitic protozoan Black Spot, Clownfish, and White Spot marine ich infestations, as well as flukes, lice, and fungal diseases that both fresh and saltwater fishes can contract. Although a toxic chemical that is hazardous in its pure form, by purchasing and using a standard over-the-counter "formalin" product, typically a 37% solution of formaldehype diluted with water (compare prices), it's rather easy to treat ich diseased fish

WDLV
05/18/2010, 11:12 AM
Thinking I could treat ick with formalin cost me a ~$1000 pair of latezonatus clowns.
If that's the route you want to go, I wish you the best of luck.

Try reading this. It's from a relatively well known and trusted source.

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm

RBU1
05/18/2010, 11:22 AM
Thinking I could treat ick with formalin cost me a ~$1000 pair of latezonatus clowns.
If that's the route you want to go, I wish you the best of luck.


You must have done something wrong....Just kidding..

I am not splitting hairs with you. If you read my post you understand my frustrations with the QT process....and my take on things going forward.

WDLV
05/18/2010, 11:39 AM
I get your frustrasion. I don't know you from Adam. So I don't know how dilligent or anal you have been. I have kept fish in quarrantine for anywhere from one to twelve months... some probably longer before adding them into a shared system. When I have laxed or did something stupid (albeit seemingly harmless) like adding reef water to my quarrantine tanks instead of newly mixed water, using the same syphon hose for cleaning multiple tanks without a thorough rinsing or moving other system components (like decor) without rinsing, I have noted problems. I have been very dilligent and anal in the last 18-24 months and have had no outbreaks in my systems... even after re-introduction of previously infected specimens.

I would like to see you succeed because you followed my advise to a T as a couple other reefers have done but I still don't know you from Adam and don't know if you have or believe you have done everything i would suggest. I don't have all the answers. This is just what has worked for me.

Equally, I do not take it personally if you decide to go a route that you deem to be a new frontier for you. I'm just advising you against those that have caused me money and grey hairs.

RBU1
05/18/2010, 01:00 PM
I get your frustrasion. I don't know you from Adam. So I don't know how dilligent or anal you have been. I have kept fish in quarrantine for anywhere from one to twelve months... some probably longer before adding them into a shared system. When I have laxed or did something stupid (albeit seemingly harmless) like adding reef water to my quarrantine tanks instead of newly mixed water, using the same syphon hose for cleaning multiple tanks without a thorough rinsing or moving other system components (like decor) without rinsing, I have noted problems. I have been very dilligent and anal in the last 18-24 months and have had no outbreaks in my systems... even after re-introduction of previously infected specimens.

I would like to see you succeed because you followed my advise to a T as a couple other reefers have done but I still don't know you from Adam and don't know if you have or believe you have done everything i would suggest. I don't have all the answers. This is just what has worked for me.

Equally, I do not take it personally if you decide to go a route that you deem to be a new frontier for you. I'm just advising you against those that have caused me money and grey hairs.


I have been anal myself. I just hope the ich in my main tank works it self out somehow. I only saw about 10 spots at most on the crosshatch and none on any of the other fish......Just have to hope for the best this time....

WDLV
05/18/2010, 01:04 PM
Just have to hope for the best this time....

Good luck!

RBU1
05/18/2010, 01:06 PM
Thanks

Blitzburggirl
05/18/2010, 02:42 PM
man.. what a mess... I read not to mix copper and hypo because it's more difficult to monitort the copper and it can cause fluctuations in other parameters. I won't pretend to know anything more about it than that.

In my opinion, ich is going to exist in the average reef tank. Meaning the person that likes to pick up a coral or a fish, or a snail every so often. And doesn't thoroughly QT everything. Very few people I know QT every snail. And even fewer every coral. And the one point in which everyone thinks they do QT, and most don't effectively QT is that they QT multiple animals, from multiple sources (not just suppliers/LFS's, but collecters, and areas of the world) together. Or even more foolish... they may QT one animal for a month, then add another, and for weeks later add the initial animal to the display. Geeze. Nowhere is this more rampant than here on RC with all these elaborate builds.

That said. I built my 180 and ran for 2 months fallow with LR out of another reefers tank (that I'd known for about 2 years.) I then bought a group of fish from another reefer that had been in his 125 for 2-3 years together. He hadn't added any other fish in 2 years. They were all healthy when I got them from him. Out of the group, a 6 inch regal tang came down with what I thought was ich. In over 10 years of reef keeping I had never had a sick fish. I tried what many of you are suggesting, feeding, ride it out... etc. Well, it got to the point where the fish was suffering, and I didn't have the means to QT a 6" tang. So I found another reefer that did, and offered to give her the fish. I tore my tank down (180) to get this fish out, and still stressed him out to the point where he died in the 5 gallon bucket on the 1.5 hour drive to her house :( None of the others have exhibited signs of any disease since September 2009.

I have only added 3 other fish since that group, and that was in Dec. They came, again, from a reefer I knew, with a healthy tank. I didn't QT them and added them to my display. 5 months later, no issues. I'm keeping my fingers crossed!!!

I have one fish in a pseudo QT right now. It is in a 12 gallon nano, that was a fully functioning reef for nearly 2 years. I remove most corals. This fish is delicate (CBB) and is being trained to eat prepared foods. I left the LR and sand in the tank, along with a few zoas and polyps. The fish has been in QT 3 weeks now, and will likely stay there for another 2-3 months. Why? I wanted the benefit of the biological filtration of the LR and LS. Given that the fish is undergoing food training, I needed a robust system that is stable as much food is being added. Also, I can do fairly large frequent water changes without shocking the system. I wanted to provide a lower stress environment than a stark QT tank. I think fish can discern plastic rocks from real rocks LOL The tank is small enough that I can catch the fish easily if it needs to be medicated. I can observe proclivity to eat polyps easily.

All this, and I'm obviously in this subforum for a reason right LOL

The tail of my copperband looks a bit odd to me. It's not ich, but I can't identify it as anything else. Kind of like a mother of pearl look on his white. For all I know, it's normal. Anyway, just thought I'd share my opinion of QT. Faced with my regal's case of ich again, I think I'll let him fight it out in the tank. Not stress the sick fish and all others by attempting to catch him. But I do QT all incoming animals for which I don't know their history.

RBU1
05/19/2010, 09:30 AM
So Blitz,

Your tank had ich and you did nothing and they have been fine for how long?

Your mother of pearl look sounds bacterial to me. Keep up the water quality and diet,,,

ezhoops
08/22/2010, 05:52 PM
what is everyone's thoughts on cleaner shrimp and cleaner wrasse, do they have any factor in the ich equation?

thanks

Gogandantess
08/22/2010, 11:38 PM
^ I think they help assist the infected fish in cleaning them but not necessarily getting rid of the ich. It's more of a quick relief to the fish IMO.

aquaph8
08/22/2010, 11:49 PM
When I first started the hobby I knew nothing of QT. All I knew was that I couldn't treat my fish cause of my corals so I didn't. Let just say the hardy survived, at least until something else went wrong that stressed em. I tried cleaner shrimp, wrasses and every miracle reef safe crap on the market. I lost most fish in the first month and had a few fish that seemed to fight it off with just being fed well. 10 years later, I now QT everything, fish and corals and very rarely lose anything unless I get big headed and try something I know I shouldn't. Me and Powder blue's dont get along.

Aqua Commander
08/23/2010, 02:22 AM
ich sucks.

formalin dips tend to work, but i've found that the infected fish need to be removed from the main tank to a tank with no substrate and treated there.

in a reef that is super difficult...when i see ich in a reef i'll feed them rinsed pe mysis, cilantro, turn on the uv, and pray!!

nanchil
08/23/2010, 08:22 AM
I always soak the food in garlic and feed and I guess that helps to prevent ich.

fishyness
08/23/2010, 09:09 AM
I have 2 hospital tanks going right now due to ich. Doing hypo in both, my flame angel wasn't doing very good last night. No stress here tearing down 2 reef tanks in a week.

I tried the "do nothing" and lost fish.

aquaph8
08/23/2010, 09:28 AM
The doing nothing thing may seem to work for some but it always comes back to haunt you later. No one's tank is perfect forever. All it takes is one stressful event or one wrong fish addition to cause problems and/or fish loss. IMO you should be feed garlic and selcon to keep your fish healthy but its not an ich cure.

JSeymour
08/23/2010, 10:46 AM
I was just logging on to start a post about how I'm about to up my quaranteen procedure, and saw this post. Thought I'd just add my newest experience.

My yellow longnose, a fish I was able to keep and watch at my work for over a month, brought him home, and has been in the tank for about a month. Not one spot of ich this entire time. A few days ago, I decided I needed a couple more snails. Went to the store, grabbed a couple snails from one of our coral display tanks(no fish, and I personally quaranteened and treated every coral that went into this tank, no rb, nudis, etc.) and just threw them in my tank. Now my butterfly is in a hospital tank, starting hypo treatment. I'm almost baffled. My guess is that the small amount of water on the end of the hose used to refill the tanks after water changes, had ich in it from one of the fish tanks. Now it's in my tank. Quaranteen EVERYTHING, even if it seems you shouldn't have to.

So my question to other quaranteeners, how long do nonfish introductions need to be quaranteened for ich? I know for fish, 8 weeks, but a snail, cucumber, shrimp, etc? How do you quaranteen organisms that need an established liverock system to feed like linka stars? I don't plan on getting one, but 8 weeks in a sterile environment, I would think they would starve.

aquaph8
08/23/2010, 11:14 AM
Jason, I know what you mean. I don't qt snails, etc...... I think its good practice if you have the means cause anything wet can bring Ich but I just don't have the space or an understanding enough wife to take it that far. Its really hard not to think the fish was carrying it along but you never know.

JSeymour
08/23/2010, 12:03 PM
It could have been just festering in the gills I guess, but not seeing one spot or blemish from a spot for two months in full strength saltwater, with a tank transfer inbetween, I think the chances of that are very low.

I'm pretty sure it was the snails, which should have been "clean".

Live and learn.

One more quaranteen tank, ugh. I need a rack.

sea of cortez
08/23/2010, 08:22 PM
I tried the ride it out approach but after 1 of my potters died I started treating with Garlic in the food and in the water, that did seem to help a little then I added No ich also. It didnt seem to hurt my corals (the feather dusters and RBT would shrink up right after a treatment) but I swear that stuff seemed to make the out break worst. I used the whole 64 oz as directed during that time I lost another potter, a flame, 3 blue tangs, mated pair of neon gobies, 1 chromis, 1 clown gobie, 3 twin spot gobies, another neon gobie (this is the the one I should have QT'D he had one spot on him the day after I put him in the display, one spot and one month was all it took to kill all these fish)
I learned my lesson in the last week I have set up 2 QT's that are ready to be used as hospital tanks for the rest of the fish and QT's after

deep_sea_Dennis
08/24/2010, 01:53 PM
I think I have tried every solution to fighting ich even some snake oil.......from 20 years experience the best advice I can give is to QT EVERYTHING I bought some snails added them right to a tank that had the same fish for 5 years never had ich or no signs of any disease about a week later a massive ich outbreak....I know snails cant have ich themselves but some must have been stuck to their shells I had to tear down the tank after I started loosing fish I let it set empty for 6 months. I prefer hypo to copper but hypo must be down very carefully I hypo for 8 to 10 weeks then bring back to 1.023 over a course of 2 weeks with a saltwater drip I now QT EVERYTHING snails, shrimps crabs even plants and corals and not have had ich or disease for years....

Stuart60611
08/24/2010, 02:56 PM
I just posted this in another thread, but the quinine based drugs, and particularly chloroquine phosphate, are also an alternatives to deal with crypt. There are some problems and benefits from using the quinine drugs, but I do believe that they have been proven effective and are used at the hobby and public aquaria level regularly and with success. Dr. Michael Stafford, consulting veterinarian for the American National Fish and Wildlife Zooquarium, recommends this treatment and expressly states that treating cryptocaryon with copper and formalin is "outdated". The Marine Fish Health and Feeding Handbook (2008) (pg. 146-147). Also, Rich Terrell of the Pittsburgh Zoo & PPG successfully uses this treatment. Id. Moreover, Bob Goemann and Bob Fenner of wetwebmedia, two very respected people in the hobby, tout this as the prefered treatment for cryptocaryon. Below is a link to a thread that I started to investigate a rather unconventional use of chlroquine phosphate, but within the thread are links to a variety of useful information concerning using this drug to treat crypt.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=1891371 (http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1891371)

SaltwaterAdict
09/29/2010, 04:54 PM
RBU more than half those medications shouldn't be on the market to begin with. I'm a believer on letting nature take it's course. If you do have anything extremely wrong which you shouldn't if you have good water quality and feeding healthy foods, then you can treat the DT with copper of course if it's a fish only and I think that's what you have. People usually panic and go to extremes like your doing. IMO, if your fish shows some type of sign take him out of the DT and treat him in the QT. It would make your life so much easier if you bought a fish, put him in the tank, and let it be!! Think about it. :idea: I know you buy very nice expensive fish, but treating them with all these harmful medications isn't the best course of action. Yes, certain medications do more harm than good, especially considering, like copper, it's very hard to get the accurate dose and very easily you can overdose! I hate looking at fish in QT tanks anyhow. They're small and it's not natural. Let um' swim and do their thing...good luck man!

SaltwaterAdict
09/29/2010, 05:02 PM
The doing nothing thing may seem to work for some but it always comes back to haunt you later. No one's tank is perfect forever. All it takes is one stressful event or one wrong fish addition to cause problems and/or fish loss. IMO you should be feed garlic and selcon to keep your fish healthy but its not an ich cure.

That's silly to say. For example check out these tank, dude never QT tanks and I'm sure they have some more insight than you.

http://www.youtube.com/user/stuartbertram#p/a/u/1/u0vJsX9GuXM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLRubZGWXiY

Do you think these guys have time to sit around for weeks and weeks to QT fish...didn't think so! ;)

I've talked to both personally..

RBU1
09/29/2010, 05:02 PM
No FOWLR for me....I am going to see what happens with the black tang. Hopefully I can just let him be and see what happens. Hopefully he stays clean.

http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj149/rbu1/Fish%20Tanks/June2010tankshot.jpg

SaltwaterAdict
09/29/2010, 05:09 PM
Thats interesting. I was always told never to mix hypo and copper.

So there is really nothing you can do as a quick relief for a fish with ick. I was told FW dips do nothing either...

Agreed, to much shock to the fish and will most likely die. IMO

If you drop the salinity slightly then it shouldn't be a problem.

SaltwaterAdict
09/29/2010, 05:12 PM
Thinking I could treat ick with formalin cost me a ~$1000 pair of latezonatus clowns.
If that's the route you want to go, I wish you the best of luck.

Try reading this. It's from a relatively well known and trusted source.

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm

Why would you buy fish that expensive in the first place. That's ridiculous! :fun2:

SaltwaterAdict
09/29/2010, 05:17 PM
RBU I think you're weakening your fishes immune system if you keep treating them how you've been. Maybe an experienced person could treat their fish with, copper/formalin, but even then so many things can go wrong. I see all these threads you have and think you should sit back and enjoy your fish tank my man! :p

SaltwaterAdict
09/29/2010, 05:20 PM
No FOWLR for me....I am going to see what happens with the black tang. Hopefully I can just let him be and see what happens. Hopefully he stays clean.

http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj149/rbu1/Fish%20Tanks/June2010tankshot.jpg

That's good to hear! :bounce1:

Damn that tank looks awesome! How big is that baby, 500g!? It looks like an 8ft tank! Very nice. I'm upgrading soon, can't wait. Acrylic or glass?

SaltwaterAdict
09/29/2010, 11:30 PM
No FOWLR for me....I am going to see what happens with the black tang. Hopefully I can just let him be and see what happens. Hopefully he stays clean.

http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj149/rbu1/Fish%20Tanks/June2010tankshot.jpg

If you put him in your DT and he shows some signs of ich don't panick and I guarantee he will be fine. I've seen my powderblue and blue hippo have spots of ich, but I feed them good and it will quickly go away within a few days. Good water quality and healthy feeding goes a long way. Try soaking your foods; nori, flakes, mysis in garlic/selcon. This will help boost there immunity and you'll see a complete reversal. Best of luck!:)

SaltwaterAdict
09/30/2010, 07:38 AM
I spoke to a person this morning that I trust in this hobby. I explained to him how I thought I was doing everything right and to still get ich just really frustrates the heck out of me....He feels that because I have been Qting the fish and getting them stronger they stand a good chance of fighting it off.....I can tell you I am not tearing that 300 down again to remove all the fish for a THIRD time!!!!!! From now on whatever happens, happens....I will still QT but don't think I will treat unless they need it. During my other QT periods I was treating everything with Cuprmaine and PraziPro.

Good for you! :)

SaltwaterAdict
09/30/2010, 07:46 AM
OK here are my most recent pictures of the crosshatch in my main tank. The first shot showing his head. He has some indentations that from a fellow RC members thoughts its wounds from rubbing his head on the PVC while in QT. But the other white spots you see I think with great certainty are ich....

THe second photo I took when I got home from work yesterday....The white patch I have no idea what it could be...My assumption is an injury from the rock in the tank...But the way my luck is going who knows!!!!!

http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj149/rbu1/Fish%20Tanks/crosshatchich.jpg

http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj149/rbu1/Fish%20Tanks/Crosshatchspot.jpg

Very common for trigger fish and I wouldn't lose sleep over it. ;)

SaltwaterAdict
09/30/2010, 08:06 AM
Dimensions on this 300 gallon beauty? Did you make the stand yourself? Very appealing.

steelhead77
09/30/2010, 11:22 PM
OK! I am so glad to have found this thread. Finally some like minded individuals with some sanity on this subject. Here's my Purple Tang:

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/steelhead77/3526844642/" title="Prince_Ich2 by steelhead77, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3402/3526844642_841f746b6a.jpg" width="500" height="343" alt="Prince_Ich2" /></a>

This pic was taken almost two years ago and he is still going strong today. I did not treat him or the tank with anything other than UV. At the time I had about 6 other fish in the tank. None of those fish came down with ich and I have been thru 2 tank upgrades since this pic was taken. I have since added about another 9 fish and none have come down with ich. I have never QT'd a fish as I believe this creates more stress for the fish and feel it's better to get them in a stress free environment as quickly as possible. I think that my tank is either completely ich free or my fish have built up immunity due to good water params and good feeding. I strongly believe it is wrong to tell newbies in this hobby that they need to tear down their tank and chase a sick fish around so that they can stick it in a QT tank 1/4-1/3 the size of the DT. My feeling is that as long as the fish is still eating and swimming as normal, leave it alone and see what happens. You cannot believe the flaming I have received for taking this position.

ArtemisGoldfish
10/01/2010, 02:29 AM
Shawna won the thread.

You people and i'm not directing this at Bill, who want to assert survival of the fittest tactics and think you're on to something then for all of our sakes establish guidelines and be very specific of all details of your systems and practices - i.e., include vital information such as: LxWxH, size of display tank, % of open swimming space, total # of gallons, numbers, size and species of fish along with dates of purchase/release into your display tank, inverts present and their numbers, plus number of tank set ups in the household and frequency of new fish, introductions of live food sources e.g. lv brine shrimp, clams, mussels etc., dates and frequency (i'm sure i missed a few). "Maybe", then we can get a baseline pattern of your success and failures. That is if you've enough years of long term success to back up any of your claims. And please spare me the rational, because i disagree doesn't mean i don't get it, i'd like to see this move up a level.
And again well i can't promise i'll participate further, at least we'll be getting somewhere past the he said she said therefor it must be mentality.

One of the best things I've read in this entire sub-forum. A pint to you for that one. Hopefully people can identify with this for both scientific and ethical validity.


what is everyone's thoughts on cleaner shrimp and cleaner wrasse, do they have any factor in the ich equation?

It's physically impossible for either to remove the parasite from the fish as they burrow into (and sometimes past) the epithealial layers meaning that a shrimp would have to puncture the fish. Same with the wrasse and you would also subject the wrasse to Crypto.


RBU- The fallow approach is 99.9% effect in all but laboratory conditions. If we go past the possibility of user related error then you are the unlucky recipient of a genetic abnormality in your reef tank.

I still assert the point that everything you are going to put in your tank must be quarantined.

reefWW96
10/01/2010, 05:01 AM
Hi, when i started my tank up about 8 months ago. I was getting ich like crazy. my yellow tang i bought had brought it in. i took him out, quarintined him and put him back inthe display and he was fine. so, about 4 weeks later. all the fish in my main tank has ich. (sixline, yellow tang, tomato clown) I bought a chiller, and that seemed to help with the temperature fluctuations. but i also started feeding the nori algae daily instead of weekly. The tang never got ich again. The sixline still had some and I couldnt get rid of it. I bought Dr G's antiparasite food and that did it. That was all around 5 months ago. currently, i have a yellow tang, sixline wrasse, ocellaris clown,banana wrasse, mandarin, and longnose hawkfish. All are doing fine and none have ich. I believe that diet is much more than half of a fishes immune system.

Stuart60611
10/01/2010, 09:02 AM
I think a distinction needs to be made between quarantining fish before they are added to the display and removing fish from the display to quarantine once the fish in the display shows signs of ich or another parasite. As to the prior, I feel that there can be no reasonable debate on the subject because all recognized authorities recommend quarantine. I just posted this in a another thread, but I thought it important to add here also (since this thread has so many views) for those who may not see it in the other thread.

Let me put this way. Name a single recognized authority or cite to a single published article or book which does not strongly recommend quarantine of every fish. You cannot because they do not exist.

Conversely, I can cite to more recognized authoriites, articles, and books which all unanimously recommend the quarantine of every fish than can be posted in a single message on RC.

Likewise, name a single public aquarium or zoo which does not quarantine every fish. You cannot because they all do.

What does this demonstrate? It demonstrates that every recognized authority in this hobby recommend the quarantine of every fish. For those who disagree, I guess you know more than every recognized authority, published article, book, public aquarium, or zoo in the world.

Moreover, I strongly suggest that those who are recommending to others not to quarantine seriously consider the ramifications of their advice. It is one thing if you choose to knowingly take a risk and not quarantine your fish. It is another matter when you advise someone else not to quarantine their fish, particularlly when you do so in a misleading way like stating that experience has shown that quarantine is more detrimental to fish than not quarantining or that quarantine is too difficult or costly to accomplish. The distinction here is you are causing a less experienced hobbyiest to risk the very lives of their pets under false pretenses, particulally when all (and not just some) of the authoritative data points to quarantining fish. I find such behavior immoral and wrong.

map95003
10/01/2010, 12:23 PM
I do believe in QT'ing before adding livestock to your main tank. However, from my experience, even if you QT all fish you could still introduce ich to your tank if you DON'T QT all snails, crabs, shrimps, corals...pods. It's not that these creatures carry ich, but the water they are in may have ich.

I've QT'd my fish in the beginning and still ended up with ich, probably from snails/crabs I've added that I didn't QT....so (and I know I'm gonna get a lot of heat for this), I decided since I don't have the means of QT'ing everything, it doesn't make much sence to just QT just fish....so I stopped doing that. It's been over a yr since I had ich in my tank (knocking on wood), I feed well and try to use garlic every once in a while.

Stuart60611
10/01/2010, 12:43 PM
I've QT'd my fish in the beginning and still ended up with ich, probably from snails/crabs I've added that I didn't QT....so (and I know I'm gonna get a lot of heat for this), I decided since I don't have the means of QT'ing everything, it doesn't make much sence to just QT just fish....so I stopped doing that.

Not at all a good idea. Although it is possible to introduce ich to your display by failing to quarantine non-fish items, the chances are not very high that you will do so. However, the chances are very high that if you introduce a fish to your display infected with ich that all of your fish in your display will get infected with the parasite. If you are not going to quarantine non-fish items, a great way to greatly reduce the chances of introducing ich from non-fish items is to dip corals. As to non-fish inverts or macro, you can first rinse them real well in saltwater outside the display and then place them in a container in your sump for a while. This way many parasites will get washed off and any remaining parasites will have to find their way from your sump to your display and attach to a fish. Difficult task for the free swimming stage of ich to accomplish in 72 hours and not get killed by the return pump. No certainties in this hobby, and all we are left with is reducing risk.

aquaph8
10/01/2010, 12:55 PM
That's silly to say. For example check out these tank, dude never QT tanks and I'm sure they have some more insight than you.

http://www.youtube.com/user/stuartbertram#p/a/u/1/u0vJsX9GuXM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLRubZGWXiY

Do you think these guys have time to sit around for weeks and weeks to QT fish...didn't think so! ;)

I've talked to both personally..

I don't care what those guys think. I just stated what I think. Take it or leave it. Keep doing what works for others and Ill do what works for me. I'm sure I could go find some pics of nice tanks with owners that QT all their fish but what would I be proving.

sfboarders
10/01/2010, 03:18 PM
I gave up on treating ich. I've done hypo and quinine sulphate QT before putting my fish in the DT and they still got ich. Most likely the ich was transferred from some inverts or corals. When I introduced my purple tang the ich came back and was noticeable on my blue hippo and purple tang. It comes and goes like the ich normal lifecycle. Both the fish and eat and swim fine so I just let it be.