Help me figure out where I am in cycle! (tests)

[Rskillz]

Hey guys, so I'm on the sixth day of cycling and I just ran my first tests. My setup is a 72 gallon bowfront with a 29 gallon sump. I used 20 lbs of live rock and 50 lbs of dead rock in setup, along with two bags of Carib-sea arag-alive.

I dosed bio-spira in the beginning, as well as Seachem Stability, which is now about to run it's course. I know these aren't magic, but I felt I'd use whatever tools available.

So, here are my numbers.

Ammonia - 1
Nitrite - 5
Nitrate - 20
Ph 8
Salinity - 1.023

Any ideas how it's going? Any of these numbers seem weird/fast/behind for the sixth day in my setup?

Thanks guys!

[MCCOOL]

Looks like you're in the middle of cycling to me, all those numbers look normal. you should see those nitrites and the ammonia go away in the next week or two.

[Rskillz]

awesome, it would be cool to see those numbers drop soon.

Any more input? :spin1:

[Greenmaster]

For future reference Nitrate usually gets listed after nitrite. Just because of the way the cycle works... Ammonia --> Nitrite --> Nitrate once cycled ammonia/nitrite will be almost unreadable on a test and nitrate (in most set-ups) will continue to rise.



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My 320g tank build http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=1840581
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[Rskillz]

Ok thanks green, what do those numbers tell you?

[Greenmaster]

It tells me that you have quite a load of ammonia production for your cycle and your tank is converting the ammonia to nitrite faster then the nitrite to nitrate... so I would guess about 5-10 days you will be done your cycle.

[Rskillz]

It tells me that you have quite a load of ammonia production for your cycle and your tank is converting the ammonia to nitrite faster then the nitrite to nitrate... so I would guess about 5-10 days you will be done your cycle.

Cool, I've noticed ZERO difference in the tank other than it becoming clearer and the dead rock gaining some color.

[Rskillz]

This is how it's looking atm...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v485/Rskillz/DSC00124.jpg

[Greenmaster]

Looks nice I like the rockwork I can't wait till I get my tank. All these people with nice tanks and all I got is a stand...



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My 320g tank build http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1840581
If you don't like what you are looking at you are looking at it the wrong way.

[Rskillz]

Numbers today:

Ph 7.8
Ammonia .5
Nitrite 5
Nitrate 10

hmmmmm, I know, I'm a nerd. Should probably only test once every few days.

Any thoughts?

[csmfish]

I was gonna say that you can not tell whats happening on one test as the results may go up or down on the next test. Seeing as how the number are going down, your ammonia, that should drop to 0 shortly and the nitrites are going to hang for quite a while now, maybe 2/3 more weeks if the nitrite's do not go any higher.

Check the perams on Monday and see where they are at.

[Rskillz]

Thanks csm, nitrites need to be gone before cycle is over right?

[Greenmaster]

Yes nitrites need to be gone... When I cycled with my first tank I was testing 2-3 times a day and made a chart... (also a nerd) :-D

[Lannyrx7]

yes. amm 0, nitrites 0, nitrates <20-40 (preferably <5 but reality is harsh). Once you see the nitrates start falling and they get below 20-40 you are safe for clean up crew, certain soft corals, and hardy fish. Just take it slow so that your biological filter can keep up with your additions.

Everytime you add something your tank goes through a mini cycle and has to "catch up" to accomidate the new member, so if it's a big fish wait a couple weeks to add something. Small fish, wait til the next week. Your clean up crew should also be added slowly a few members at a time (not a fan of big reef packages). If you add multiple fish you'll normally see a small jump in ammonia and it will go away as the biological filter catches back up.

[Rskillz]

Yea, I'm a nerd, and I'm impatient. That DOES NOT mean I will put anything in it before it's done cycling (I did notice a tiny white starfish hitchiker today haha). Our plan is to add cleanup crew first (maybe a emerald crab, pom-pom crab, couple of shrimp, and 5-10 snails). Then our hope is to add a pair of clowns, a lawnmower blenny, and a few softies. We will take our time, but these rocks are starting to get a bit boring to look at.

You KNOW it's bad when you get excited about finding a 1/16th of inch starfish.

[Greenmaster]

ROFL I remember that... I'm getting excited just to have my tank on order

[Rskillz]

lol yea, I've been following your build thread Green, looks epic!

So, let's just say, for illustration purposes that the cycle completes in ten days.

Add the clean up crew....

wait one week

Add two clowns...

wait one week

Add a lawnmower Blenny and a few frags?

Or is that jumping the gun? I think I will still dose Stability to help the ammonia/nitrate levels.

[Greenmaster]

sounds okay... if you don't mind wasting a few test kits you could test every day after you add. As soon as it has stabilized then you can add the next phase. The chemistry is more important then time.

[Rskillz]

Yea, test kits are cheap. The API I have was like 18 bucks. I know they aren't perfect, but they are pretty good. I want a sick digital one, but I can't afford it.:worried2:

[Greenmaster]

I say the drops are the best kits the digital need to be calibrated... and then re-calibrated.

[Rskillz]

Today...

Ammonia - < .25
Nitrite - 2
Nitrate - 10
Ph 8
Salinity - 1.023

[Greenmaster]

Right on should be done by Wednesday maybe sooner... what are you using to cycle? Are you adding stuff daily or did you do the shrimp thing?

[Rskillz]

I use Seachem Stability and initially Bio-spira as supplements, but I started with live rock and sand. I threw in some frozen food just to spike the ammonia too

[Greenmaster]

I would throw some more food in to keep the ammonia production up... and to make sure that it is your bio filter that is getting stronger and not just your ammonia source disappearing.

[Slim_jim989]

I would wait on that lawnmower blennie as those things need some alge they dont call them lawnmower for nothing lol

[Rskillz]

Day 9

How's it coming along? These API test kits have a weird coloring for Nitrite, where do you guys think that color matches up? Ammonia is weird too, or am I just color blind?

Please tell me this will be over soon! (Starting to think Bio-spira and Stability are snake oil)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v485/Rskillz/DSC00144.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v485/Rskillz/DSC00145.jpg

[Greenmaster]

PH 8.2 or 8.0 hard to tell with the shading
Ammonia is 0.25
Nitrite is 0.25-0.5
Nitrate is 10-15...
or close too it.... when was the last time you put food in to keep the cycle going?



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[reefinmike]

I would recomend adding the cleanup crew after the fish. inverts are more sensative to ammonia, nitrites and nitrates than fish are.

[travis32]

I know this is a pain when people tell you that every choice you make has consequences, but, well, every choice does have consequences.

Lawnmower blenny are great hardy fish... Not great as a first addition. It was mine, and he's shrunken quite a bit and wouldn't eat anything I fed the tank. Now that he's starving and IMO very close to death (gills were puffed wide open barely moving, and he barely moveD) I found a food to reinvigorate him --- 2 months after having purchased him.

I wold hold off on a lawnmower until you have some nice algae cycles. In reading on lawnmowers online, some don't take to aquarium life and simply won't eat.

Lastly. IMHO I would not add clowns as my first fish. Very pretty and active fish, also a member of the damsel family-- note the word dam.. (that's just my reference to them.) They can be territorial and agressive. Especially if they're the first fish and claim the whole tank as their real estate. Imagine then, having other fish added after they've claimed the tank as theirs? Territorial wars.. ;)

I'm making clowns close to my last addition. I want a dwarf angel, but am waiting for my tank to be 6-8 months old for them as they require lots of vegetation to nip at. (to have the best chances of not having them nip at corals).

So, my tank is just over 3 months old, I only have 3 fish, and will satisfy my thirst for livestock through coral purchases in the meantime. I have a stocking list of at least 3 more fish for me, but none I'll be getting for another 3 - 4 months.

[Rskillz]

Thanks for the advice on stocking. How would a sailfin tang do first or early on?

[Rskillz]

Whoa, so I came home today and did a water test, and nitrites are almost gone! So is ammonia! Does this mean the cycle might be coming to a close? :bounce1: That would be pretty amazing! Also, PH is 7.8, how do you raise PH? I know it needs to be about 8.2 right?

What do you guys think?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v485/Rskillz/DSC00147.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v485/Rskillz/DSC00146.jpg

[Greenmaster]

Too much CO2 in the water drops PH, but there are possibly other things that could be doing it too. Bacteria consumes O2 and releases CO2 (you might want to get more oxygenation)... now I know I have asked this many times but did you only feed the tank once? because you may not be finished yet... you should feed the same amount that you would feed the stock you are going to put in... (I don't think your going to through the fish in feed once and forget about it.) Like if you want to put in one fish first feed as though the fish is in there already in there. That's just my opinion.

[Rskillz]

Yea, I only threw in food once to spike the ammonia. You're saying that I should do that again to make sure the tank can handle it and the cycle is done? And if the tank is done, the ammonia won't spike and nitrates won't show back up? Is that what you're saying?

[Greenmaster]

what I am saying is if you don't put in something that daily adds ammonia then you will need to add it daily because fish add it daily. Or add something that will release for a couple of day's then add again and keep the ammonia additions coming until your fish comes and starts producing it... you are trying to create a balance of ammonia consuming bacteria with the amount of ammonia your addition will add. If there is no ammonia for the bacteria to consume then the bacteria will die... Ammonia should get to an undetectable level even though you are still adding food. (that's why cycles can take a long time.)


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If you don't like what you are looking at you are looking at it the wrong way.

[Rskillz]

Hmmmm. I sort of see what you are saying, but forgive me for being a noob. Couldn't I just add a couple of fish or inverts to accomplish the same goals? Are you saying that you are worried the tank is not even cycled so it would be best to add fish to make sure it IS done before adding livestock? Or are you simply saying keep adding waste to get the filters in habit and keep them alive and well UNTIL I add livestock?

Sorry, first I've heard of this. I always though you just waited until nitrite and ammonia zero'd out, then you can slowly add.

[Greenmaster]

You can "cycle" a tank with fish... the point of a cycle is to get the bacteria growth to a point that they can handle the fish you are going to add... I'm going to give you some confusing numbers.


okay lets say 1 fish adds 10 Ammonia "points" a day
you "shocked" your tank by adding lets say 30 "points"
the first day your bacteria grew to take care of 1 "points" 29 left
second day it got to 2 "points" 27 left
third 3 "points" 24 left
fourth 4 "points" 20 left
fifth 5 "points" 15 left
sixth 6 "points" 9 left
seventh 7 "points" 2 are left
on the eight day there isn't enough ammonia left in the system to keep growing so they actually start to decrease your ammonia "point" rating is at 6.8 and will decrease slowly till all the bacteria starves to death. (as the bacteria dies it releases ammonia thus making it a drop slower then it rises when it has food.)
So if we say you get your fish a few days later and your system drops to 5 "points" when you add the 10 "point" fish you will have steadily increasing ammonia levels until your bacteria reaches and then passes the amount that your fish produce.
That maybe didn't make sense... if it didn't let me know and I will try explaining another way.


__________________
My 320g tank build http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1840581
If you don't like what you are looking at you are looking at it the wrong way.

[Greenmaster]

Your ammonia should slowly build until it peaks then slowly goes down. Because you only added once it went up when you added but didn't continue to rise. But because you didn't test early we don't know exactly how it started.


__________________
My 320g tank build http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1840581
If you don't like what you are looking at you are looking at it the wrong way.

[Rskillz]

my first ammonia test at the LFS was off the charts a day or two after setup.

[Greenmaster]

well I would add a little food just to make sure it has enough buffer there to support a fish... or as I said your fish might get a little stress in the beginning as it finishes the cycle.



__________________
My 320g tank build http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1840581
If you don't like what you are looking at you are looking at it the wrong way.

[Lannyrx7]

As previously stated with the lawnmower and the clowns. While I'm not saying it's bad advice, I will say that I don't completely agree.

If you buy the clowns small, which most TR ones will be, they don't setup a territory for a while. So as a first addition small TR clowns are good.

LM Blennies are hit and miss on food. Make sure it eats whatever you're planning on feeding before you buy it. Mine eats anything that happens to float by and is nice and plump.

The tang.. well add him last or close to last being they will be somewhat aggressive.

I'll give you the exact stocking order my tank went through (not done yet):
10 hermit crabs (these guys are super hardy)
1 week later,
2 small tr clowns
1 week later,
2 skunk cleaner shrimp
1 week later,
1 med peppermint shrimp
1 small lm blenny
2 weeks later,
5 astreas and 5 ceriths
couple days later,
a small yellow tang
2 weeks later,
4 turbo snails
1 week later,
a chalk bass
1 month later,
a banded sleeper goby (this is the one I have to worry about with food, he loves PE mysis though)

lots of coral frags in there after the yellow tang, it's been a while since I added a fish/invert since I've been focusing on the "reef" aspect. The hermit crabs fight eachother for pieces of food sometimes. Other than that, no aggression issues at all besides the goby and the bass, but they never do anything to eachother. Sometimes they will stare eachother down then swim their seperate ways. The tang chases other fish but seems to be more of a playful chase.