All advice welcome - Finally preparing for my reef tank

[AnayaReef]

Hello everyone!

I have been (patiently) waiting to start my reef tank for years (about 15). I have kept freshwater throughout these years and successfully bred show quality Betta Splendids for several years.

So here are my stats. I have the following tanks at my disposal:

55 gallon (48Lx21Hx12W)
30 Breeder (30x18x12)
20 High (24x16x12) - currently housing my tropical freshwater 'family'
20 Long (30x13x12) (have 2 of these, but have my geckos in one)
more standard 10 gallon tanks than I could count....
I have no proper lighting yet, more about that later...

My goals - To have a gorgeous reef tank that can successfully house a pair of Green Mandarin Dragonets (fell in love with the fish 13 years ago and have been planning this ever since-they are my ultimate goal - everythign revolves around them), pair of small percula clowns (loved them even before Nemo), a pair of sea horses (no idea what kind, but would like to try my hand at breeding them...maybe...maybe not, lol), a starfish of some kind, maybe a crab if I can and some kind of corals...no idea what kind of corals I want or should get (would love input). Anything beyond that is just icing.

I have no stand currently, will be building that based on how I decide to set this up. I am blessed with a VERY handy husband...I'm not too shabby myself ;)

I have been reading and doing a lot of research (my head is still spinning). Based on the fish I want, I understand I cannot have anemones and some kinds of corals (anything that will eat slower fish). I understand I cannot have aggressive fish, no biggie for me. I understand that the Mandarin is a very particular eater and I must have a solid pod population to feed him (refugium will help with that) in a well established tank. No worries, I have waited 13 years to get them, I can wait another 6 mo- 1yr to let my tank establish before buying them. Any other input on keeping Mandarins?

Lighting - I am planning on investing in and making custom LED lighting for at least my display tank and possibly my refugium as well. Again, handy husband will come in...well, handy. lol Any feedback on LEDs? I know they are still relatively new to the hobby...

Part of my problem is, I am not sure which tanks to use for everything.

It makes sense to use the largest for my display (55) with a shallow sand bed (any input on what the most economical, yet good sand I can get?), lots of live rock (will probably cure right in the system since it will be a new setup), and some strategically placed powerheads to prevent dead spots but so they aren't too forceful (for the sea horses). Thoughts on this setup?

I was thinking the 20L and 30B for my Sump and Refugium because that would nearly double the water in the system...but I am struggling with a plan for a stand to house both of those. I truly wanted the regugium above the DT so I could pull in the water into the display via overflow and not a pump. That would prevent damage to the pods by not going through a powerhead. But I'm not sure if that is feesible....perhaps it is - does anyone else have a stand where they have their refugium above their display? I was thinking I could use the 20L for this, using a deep sandbed and alternate lighting (what lighting is most commonly used for a refugium tank?). I have also thought about making my Refugium setup as an alternate display within my stand...what is your experience with refugiums being 'pretty' enough for a secondary display??

Then use the 30B under the display as a sump and would contain the skimmer and whatever other filtration (that part is still undecided as to what I will use - suggestions welcome).

Then I will be using one of my many 10 gallons for a QT tank setup outside the system for when I start adding livestock...eventually, lol.

So I am still reading, still learning, still being patient. I'm taking my time because I want to do it right and I want to only do it once if possible. My first goals are to decide my setup and filtration so I can build my stand, build my lighting and then start the long process of building my reef so I can get my mandarins.

I have found this forum extremely helpful and look forward to any and all feedback and advice any of you may have. Thanks!!

~Rhonni:lol2:

PS......I have a full R/O unit with a Deionizer...:)

[Tilmo2180]

Sounds to me like you have it all under control. Generally horses are kept in tanks all to themselves. You could plumb 2 tanks together though. I would also recommend getting a larger tank as your display, or at least one with more depth. I have found that the best reef tanks are not much tall as they are deep (front to back). Sounds to me like you have done a lot of research already though.

[AnayaReef]

Sounds to me like you have it all under control. Generally horses are kept in tanks all to themselves. You could plumb 2 tanks together though.

What about keeping the horses in the fuge? I hadn't considered that until you mentioned this...

[cloak]

What's the difference between a freshwater tank and a saltwater tank?

Salt.

;)

[AnayaReef]

What's the difference between a freshwater tank and a saltwater tank?

Salt.

;)

So you're saying I can just add some salt to my freshwater tank and all will be good? Hee hee....don't think my freshwater family would like that much!!! :lmao:

[Sisterlimonpot]

I agree to start off with a larger tank however with your plan of just 4 relatively small fish, a 55 will be fine, but just so you know this hobby is addictive and you'll want more than just 2 mandarins and 2 clowns. ;)

The above tank refugium is somewhat of a rare thing. I was in your shoes about 2 years ago and only found one other person that has done it, however I have a 20 gallon refugium above my 72 that houses all my chaeto and hermit crabs. and under the tank the is a 15 gallon sump that houses all the equiplment.

The plumbing is the same as a normal under tank sump/fuge with the exception that you have to have a second pump in the display to push the water in the above tank and then allow gravity to drain the water back to the display. So in essence you have have 2 separate system working together.

And yes you can use that refugium as a tank for your sea horses if you want and make it a second display. It's all up to you.

[AnayaReef]

... but just so you know this hobby is addictive and you'll want more than just 2 mandarins and 2 clowns. ;)

Tell me about it, I know the addiction all too well...I started off with one Betta Splenden once upon a time and wound up with hundreds because the addiction took over (see the website in my profile...total addict).

This is where my husband comes in, he is my 'balancer'...keeps me in check (or tries). I was going to start with a nano reef (20 gallon long) but then read that the mandarin's need a larger established tank...so I found the 55 at a yard sale. That with 30b sump (also a yard sale find) + 20L fuge should give them the water space they need to thrive. If I thought I could get by with a larger tank....I would...however seeing as I have to rely on hubby to build my stand and lighting...I have to try to stay within some reasonable size...reasonable in his eyes at least!

I have never really been as interested in the fish of a saltwater as I have the reef creatures/corals. The only fish I have ever been captivated by are listed in my wants. I truly think that the mandarin's special needs will keep me from going to crazy...it is all about them. :) I am truly in love with that fish.

... I have a 20 gallon refugium above my 72 that houses all my chaeto and hermit crabs. and under the tank the is a 15 gallon sump that houses all the equiplment.

How do you have that housed? Did you build a custom stand? Do you have pics? Is your fuge a DSB? If so, how does that work with the crabs?

The plumbing is the same as a normal under tank sump/fuge with the exception that you have to have a second pump in the display to push the water in the above tank and then allow gravity to drain the water back to the display. So in essence you have have 2 separate system working together.

I was thinking about having the main tank overflow to the sump and the sump would then pump fresh filtered water into the fuge, which would overflow gently into the display...would that work? Or have the sump split off and pump some back to the DT and some to the Fuge, which would then overflow into the DT...

And yes you can use that refugium as a tank for your sea horses if you want and make it a second display. It's all up to you.

I would prefer to have the horses in the main display if at all possible since I won't have it very fish heavy and the fuge will supply food...i might need to do some more reading (I have time, they will probably be my last purchase due to their cost!). If I wind up not being able to, I will arrange the fuge with some live rock and horse friendly algae that will still benefit well as a fuge. The alternate lighting schedule in the fuge would be a downside to having the horses in there.

So much to ponder and plan for...I am now contemplating a corner custom stand that would give me additional storage underneath. Unfortunately the corner I am looking at isn't long enough on one side to put a QT tank next to the display without interfering with the display itself....*sigh*....so much to figure out! :spin1:

Thank goodness for this forum and all of it's helpful members! :lol2:

[Sisterlimonpot]

How do you have that housed? Did you build a custom stand? Do you have pics? Is your fuge a DSB? If so, how does that work with the crabs?I had to build a cabinet around the tank and screw the cabinet into the wall (just like your kitchen cabinet). I have pics somewhere, I have to find some. and post them

I was thinking about having the main tank overflow to the sump and the sump would then pump fresh filtered water into the fuge, which would overflow gently into the display...would that work? Or have the sump split off and pump some back to the DT and some to the Fuge, which would then overflow into the DT...

That would work fine as well just make sure your pump can handle the head pressure. I was going to do that as well, the only thing that was stopping me is I wanted "dirty" water to the fuge so that the chaeto can be fed. But I don't think that it matters too much. how you do it. your way eliminates the use of 2 pumps.

I'm not too familiar with horses, they never intrigued me. So I can't say if they can be in the display with others or not. I just go off of the word of others when it comes to that.

[jchase1970]

Make your fuge a display fuge that you can sit beside your main tank. I love planted display fuges. I think they look as nice as a reef tank, if fact I consider it a reef in it's self just a part most people don't model. Horses seem do do real well in them too.

Do you have room to sit the 55 and 30 sided by side seems they are about the same height. A planted fuge to look nice needs to be tall enough the plants don't touch the top of the water and fold over. of course you can just trim them up too.

[AnayaReef]

Do you have room to sit the 55 and 30 sided by side seems they are about the same height. A planted fuge to look nice needs to be tall enough the plants don't touch the top of the water and fold over. of course you can just trim them up too.

You know...I just might! I have been going over my office today deciding what I can move where and I think I have freed up my long wall (in my mind anyway)...which means when I build my custom stand, I could plan for that, side by side. That is a good idea and would be easier than mounting one above it. I could build a small lift to actually make both tanks the same height... Maybe have the fuge an inch higher and plumb them so the fuge overflows slowly into the DT...I could make a custom hood that covers both tanks...hmmm....the wheels are turning now :spin1:. I could build a separator so that I could still have an alternate lighting schedule for both...but then, I might want to keep the fuge in something that I can close at night so the lights don't bother my daughter (sleeps across the hall!)....oh all of the things to consider! :fun4: LOL I think I'm going to go sketch out plans now.... when I come up with a final layout plan, I'll post it. Of course, more ideas and suggestions still welcome!!

[mthomp]

as far as mandarins go. 2 is going to be too many in a 55gal tank. you will be surprised at how quickly they can desimate a population of pods. starfish are over rated and the really cool ones almost never survive aka linkas. you can have anenomes, just be sure to let your tank fully mature, like 6 months, id wait at least that long before a mandarin as well.

[AnayaReef]

as far as mandarins go. 2 is going to be too many in a 55gal tank. you will be surprised at how quickly they can desimate a population of pods.

Is a pair too many even with a 30 gallon Fuge tank hooked into my 55 gallon (along with at least a 20g sump...looking for a larger one now)? I was hoping to keep a pair if possible.

starfish are over rated and the really cool ones almost never survive aka linkas.

Why don't they survive? I'm not even sure what kinds are out there, i just thought they might be neat.

you can have anenomes, just be sure to let your tank fully mature, like 6 months, id wait at least that long before a mandarin as well.

I plan on waiting at least that long for the mandarins, definitely. I want my fuge fully matured as well as a well established display.

So you are saying if I wait 6 months I can still have an anemone and it won't eat my mandarins? Why is that?

Thanks! :bigeyes:

[mthomp]

I am not saying it is impossible, but they are hard to care for and it may not be the only living thing in your tank that will feast on pods I think most people recomend at least a 75gal for just 1. just do some reasearch and ask around some. As far as the anenome goes, i am not saying it wont eat a fish that carelessly wander into it, but typically between you and your clown feeding it, it most likely wont be overly interested in a healthy fish.

[AnayaReef]

I am not saying it is impossible, but they are hard to care for and it may not be the only living thing in your tank that will feast on pods I think most people recomend at least a 75gal for just 1. just do some reasearch and ask around some. As far as the anenome goes, i am not saying it wont eat a fish that carelessly wander into it, but typically between you and your clown feeding it, it most likely wont be overly interested in a healthy fish.

I will definitely keep that in mind, I would like a pair but the fish is my main concern and if only keeping one is better overall, that is what I will do. If I could possibly train them to eat foods I provide, that would increase the ability to house 2, wouldn't it?

I would love to have an anemone for my clowns. I will have to research some more on them. :rollface:

[mthomp]

yeah you can sometimes train them and ORA is about to come out with some already trained, but you almost have to spot feed them. and training them is not easy.

[AnayaReef]

yeah you can sometimes train them and ORA is about to come out with some already trained, but you almost have to spot feed them. and training them is not easy.

I just read that they are coming out with some farm raised ones, that is exciting!!

I will probably try to spot feed them when I eventually get them, I will probably spend every waking moment oogling them....:spin1:...I've waited a long time to finally get them :lol2:

[mthomp]

hahaha I do that now the sadest part of my day is lights out. I have only been in this hobby for 3 months now and i am amazed with my tank everytime i look up at it.

best advice i can honestly give you is to take your sweet time, and research every single thing you add, from livestock to equipment. Also do not buy into everything your salesman tells you.

[bluestarfish]

Interesting Mandarin thread.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1820955&highlight=mandarin

[Sisterlimonpot]

You know, mandarins have been bread in captivity, and those ones eat frozen food, I'm not sure how available they are right now but if you can get a hold of those they will be fine in a 55.

MOFIB (http://www.marinebreeder.org/) is a great site to visit
edit: just read bluestarfish link and that's a great thread as well.

[AnayaReef]

Interesting Mandarin thread.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1820955&highlight=mandarin

Thanks, I read that this morning. I'm subscribed now so I can keep up :)

Also, back to teaching them to eat prepared foods, I used to teach my Bettas to jump out of their tanks and take pellets out of my fingers :) Yeah, I had a lot of time on my hands....:spin1:

[mthomp]

i have taught more then 1 fish how to roll over and play dead.

[Sisterlimonpot]

It took about a year before my mandarin started to eat frozen mysis shrimp. It still doesn't eat 100% of the time, he still likes the live food but at least he developed a palate for frozen.

[super stooge]

as far as the sea horses in the display are concerned, they are generally kept in a species only tank or fish with similar needs (such as pipefish). i cant offer first hand experience on the matter but from what i know there may be a problem with the horses being out competed for food by the clowns (and any other fish that you inevitably wont be able to resist :D ). also the lower flow will limit the corals that you can keep.

congratulations on taking the step to make your tank and good luck with your set up.

heres a lil bit of mandarin eye candy to tie you over until you get yours :D http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LTus19Ezas

[j.p. harrington]

ok i read you post and skimmed through the responses. as i seen another say they are now captive breeding the mandarin that eat frozen foods. ORA comes to mind in my area but they arent releasing them until they fully eat frozen 100% of the time.

your display should be fine but you may want to consider going with a 75 as it is a good bit wider and allows for more aquascaping possibilitys than the 55 this is what i did.

the idea with the fuge above the tank is very common with the sump pumping water up to it and then gravity feeding out of fuge back into the sump.

as for the sea horses i would not reccomend them in the display as they can handle much flow. i would consider putting them in your fuge but they would take away from your pod population.


with that said i have my fuge and sump in the same tank under my display but i have a open bottom stand that allows for easy acces and expandabilty at any time here a pic

i would also like to mention the i have a DSB in both my display and fuge.

http://img688.imageshack.us/img688/3301/newsump.jpg

the lighting used on it is just the clip on type lights you can get at lowes or home depot with the reflector taken off the bulb is a 6500k CF flood type bulb a bunch of people use this and it grows macro just fine

i just started my tank but have done years and years of reading just about every night im addicted. so even though i dont have the hands on experience i have the knowledge i am in no way saying this is how to or how not to do this.

[j.p. harrington]

i would also like to add to my above post that flow in the display is key to keeping dead spots out most people these days are turning thee displays over 65X per hour.

and forgot to mention that i also run a emperor 400 in the fuge to help with filtration as i feed it raw water from the display which some say is a no no but ive got a CUC in there so i dont worry

[cloak]

So you're saying I can just add some salt to my freshwater tank and all will be good? Hee hee....don't think my freshwater family would like that much!!! :lmao:

Your husbandry will determine.

Sounds like you already mucked it up...

[AnayaReef]

I'm still in the planning stages, I need to have everything figured out in advance before I start...I am trying to design my stand and have to get everything figured out in advance. Been doing endless reading :reading: and researching and it seems like everything I learn leads to 5 more questions...sigh :spin2:

*Planned setup-
55 gallon display with shallow sand bed and lots of liverock. I will have to make an external overflow system as my husband refuses to let me drill any tanks (wierdo). Will overflow into my 20 gallon long sump (below tank) where it will be skimmed and whatever else, then pumped back up to my display as well as to my fuge (30 gallon breeder). Fuge will be a secondary display and have a DSB, some live rock, lots of plants/macro algae (TBD) and a pair of small seahorses (eventually...down the road). It will probably wind up sitting next to my display, potentially elevated slightly so it can simply overflow into my display. That is the plan.... So here is my questions for today, really need your feedback...

1. What filtration should I use in my system aside from a skimmer? I know some people use canisters, and who knows what else. In my planning I need some advice as to what other filtration I need, if any. I am hoping the skimmer, liverock and plants in the fuge is all I need BUT I want a healthy reef, so if I need something else, please advise. I'm trying to design my sump and just need to know what I should get for it and how to put it all together. Want to do it right from the beginning...

2. Questions for my Fuge... I am starting this entire system from scratch and want to build it to get a strong population of pods as well as great filtration for the system.

2a. What kind of flow should I have in my fuge? I understand it should not be as high as my DT. How do I get the right flow and still prevent dead spots. I want to prevent the dreaded 'D' word....

2b. I plan on pumping water into the fuge from my sump, after it has been skimmed. Is this good or should I have a supply of pre-skimmed water going into the fuge from the display or is the post-skimmed water good?

Ok, I think that is enough to keep you busy answering today :) Thanks everyone! :wavehand:

[thebkramer]

Have you taken a look at jason2459 thread? He has a pair of mandarins, beautiful too. He even has video of them doing their kissing dance :) They are my fav too!!!
Here is a link I think the mandarins start here!

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1673282&page=23

[AnayaReef]

Have you taken a look at jason2459 thread? He has a pair of mandarins, beautiful too. He even has video of them doing their kissing dance :) They are my fav too!!!
Here is a link I think the mandarins start here!

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1673282&page=23

Thanks, I had not seen that thread. I started on page 23 then decided to go back to the beginning. I am on page 11 now...wow.

I now might have my husband talked into getting me a 75 gallon and will then use my 55 gallon as a sump/refugium combo...more fuge than sump....looking for feedback on that idea and some setup ideas. I will house the entire thing under the display and build custom doors so I can have the fuge portion of the sump as a secondary display. Need to determine the best setup though so I can get the right flow in the fuge for good filtration and pod population. All feedback is greatly appreciated....in the meantime, I'll be reading some more...while I watch Star Wars...lol :strooper:

[mihamlet]

LEDs....big initial investment....solid technology IMO, can payoff if you intend to stay in the hobby long enough, should last very long time.

[AnayaReef]

LEDs....big initial investment....solid technology IMO, can payoff if you intend to stay in the hobby long enough, should last very long time.

Thanks. My plsan is to have my tank for a very long time...which is why I am researching an planning so much. I want a good, solid system from day 1. :)

[AnayaReef]

Well update today, I got a killer deal on a 75 gallon setup. Picked it up today and here is a list of my equipment I have to play with as I begin to build:

75 gallon tank, not drilled
Overflow box (haven't looked at it close enough to tell you what model)
55 gallon tank I will make into Sump/Fuge with DSB and lots of rock & Macro algae
Coralife Super Skimmer 220 with pump (not sure the pump is submersible?!)
Cascade 1500 canister filter
Gamma UV Sterilizer 25 Watt
PondMag 950 pump (doesn't look submersible...not sure how I'll use it)
T5 lights 8x48", multiple controls (Still want to eventually build my own LED unit)
2x Maxi-Jet 1200
200 watt heater
AquaClear 100 power filter (not sure if I'll use this on this tank)
30+ pounds of formerly live rock. He kept it in saltwater but has not had lights or flow on for a few months. Not much alive on it at this point, I threw it in a 20gallon to see what it does for now.
Had a bunch of black sand, but after carefully scraping it out into a bucket, my husband thought he was doing me a favor by dumping it out back for me...oops!

Well that is my update, my next step is to start designing my 55 gallon sump/fuge based on my filtration devices....just not sure how to put them all together at this point!!

[Sisterlimonpot]

All the way to page 2 and still no pictures???? :D

[AnayaReef]

All the way to page 2 and still no pictures???? :D

LOL!! I am still in the planning stages, no stand build, tanks are sitting empty..supplies strewn about the room!!! Here, I have a pic of the 'not-so-live' rock I have jam packed into a 20gal long... :) Hoping it comes back to life after being neglected for a few months in his tank.

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs613.snc3/32282_401499926985_518216985_4801642_2510660_n.jpg

Anyone have any advice on how I should hook all of my filters up and in what order, and why? Thanks!

[mthomp]

put some flow in that tank.

[AnayaReef]

put some flow in that tank.

Thanks, I did after this picture was taken. I have 2 Maxi 1200's, one on each side as well as the hang on back filter. Thanks for watching out for me though!!