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dg3147
05/22/2010, 08:20 PM
So, my tank has been running for about 9 months and, despite excellent growth of all corals, I am not too happy about coral coloration. I hope that Vodka dosing may be beneficial. Here are my current parameters:

PO4 0 (I run GFO and a refugium, but still get ample algae growth daily, so clearly there is plenty of PO4 in circulation still).
N03 10 (API test) and 25 by Salifert
Kh 9.4

This is the recipe I plan on following (as in Reef Keeping mag here, http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-08/nftt/index.php):

1. Test your system’s NO3 and PO4 levels. Do not dose if you do not know this! We recommend good test kits that have some low level of sensitivity. This will be important later on to determining a maintenance dose regimen. During the initial dosing test often and adjust dosing parameters as needed as each tank’s requirement will be different. Dosing accuracy is of the utmost importance. A graduated measurement tool such as a syringe will come in handy. A journal of additions and test kit measurements is recommended.
2. Estimate your Net Water Volume (NWV) of your system. (Aquarium volume + sump + refugium + reactor volumes) – (live rock displacement). It can be difficult to accurately measure the amount of water being displaced by the live rock. If unsure of the volume of live rock we suggest taking 30% off your display tank’s Gross Water Volume. For vodka dosing there is absolutely no harm in underestimating the Net Water Volume and is recommended.

As an example, let us assume that your setup contains 100 Net Gallons.
3. The starting dosage is 0.1ml of vodka per 25 gallons (~100 liters) NWV daily continued for three days. For 100 Net Gallons, your dosage would be 0.4ml daily during this period. It has been suggested to cut the daily dosage in half and dose twice daily for more consistency.
4. Days 4-7, double the daily dosage to 0.2ml of vodka per 25 gallons NWV. Your example dosage would be 0.8ml daily during this period.
5. Each subsequent week add an additional 0.5ml of vodka regardless of aquaria volume. At this point your example dosage during week two would be 1.3ml daily. If you do not see nutrient levels decrease during this week, the following week add an additional 0.5ml for a daily dosage of 1.8ml daily.
6. When your NO3 and PO4 levels start to drop maintain the current dose. For example, if you were on week two when NO3 start to fall on 100 Net Water Volume you would add 1.3mL daily at this time for the continuing weeks until the NO3 becomes undetectable.
7. When your NO3 and PO4 levels drop near undetectable with your test kits cut your current dose in half. This will be your starting maintenance dose (if the levels drop during week 2 then the dose after reaching undetectable levels would be 0.65ml daily [1.3ml divide by 2]).
8. Continue to test for NO3 and PO4. If levels become detectable in the future increase your daily dose by 0.1ml increments per week until the levels start to decrease. If you maintain that dose the levels will eventually drop back to undetectable. This would become your new maintenance dose.

Throughout your dosing, observe your livestock daily to look for any signs of stress. If stress of any sort is noticed stop dosing, or at a minimum cut back by reducing your dose in half. If for some reason you cannot remember if you’ve added for that day skip it. It is better to accidentally miss a dose than add twice as much (a journal will keep this from occurring). Never double the dose for missing a prior day!

Here are the before photos:

FTS
<a href="http://s774.photobucket.com/albums/yy22/david_gutkin/Pre-Vodka%20March%202010/?action=view&current=IMG_0390.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i774.photobucket.com/albums/yy22/david_gutkin/Pre-Vodka%20March%202010/IMG_0390.jpg" border="0" alt="FTS"></a>

Some of the target sps corals
<a href="http://s774.photobucket.com/albums/yy22/david_gutkin/Pre-Vodka%20March%202010/?action=view&current=IMG_0391.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i774.photobucket.com/albums/yy22/david_gutkin/Pre-Vodka%20March%202010/IMG_0391.jpg" border="0" alt="Key corals"></a>

Close up of the target corals (ignore the bit of RTN on the green staghorn --it got hit by some misdirected strong flow one day). The green stag is doing well, with a deep green. Notice the dull brown/purple color to the "pink" Birdsnest and the brown coloration of the "bubble gum" sps (cannot remeber name of this one). Both are growing rapidly otherwise.
<a href="http://s774.photobucket.com/albums/yy22/david_gutkin/Pre-Vodka%20March%202010/?action=view&current=IMG_0392.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i774.photobucket.com/albums/yy22/david_gutkin/Pre-Vodka%20March%202010/IMG_0392.jpg" border="0" alt="More key Corals"></a>

dg3147
07/06/2010, 04:57 PM
So, I've been dosing for 1.5 months now. I made it up to 3mL/day; though, at around 1.5 mL/day I noticed some decreased extension of my acan polyps. Despite the recommendation to cut back or cease at that point, I still proceeded forward for another few weeks.

The following was noted:
1) The Acans, Mushrooms, and Favia all had decreased extension --though otherwise have been fine.
2) SPS corals all seem to like it, with significant growth increase.
3) STN was noted on one of the sps (though, it may be unrelated to vodka dosing as this is something I struggled with several months prior as well).
4) Birds nest in middle appears much more pink.
5) Macroalgae in fuge has halted growth.

About a week ago a backed off the Vodka for 2 reasons:
1) I clearly should have done that at first sign of acans not extending polyps.
2) Phosphat = 0
3) NO3 = 2.5
(salifert test kits)

I took 2 days off of Vodka dosing and now dose 0.75 mL/day (I plan on resuming scheduled vodka increases once all corals recover).

And the pics from today...


FTS:
<a href="http://s774.photobucket.com/albums/yy22/david_gutkin/?action=view&current=IMG_0434.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i774.photobucket.com/albums/yy22/david_gutkin/IMG_0434.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

Polyps on acan retracted a bit, but otherwise well appearing:
<a href="http://s774.photobucket.com/albums/yy22/david_gutkin/?action=view&current=IMG_0436.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i774.photobucket.com/albums/yy22/david_gutkin/IMG_0436.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

Pinker Birdsnest and the SPS growing rapidly next to it. The SPS on the left is supposed to be "Bubble Gum" colored and I am hoping vodka dosing restores the color. It's growing very fast though with excellent polyp extension:
<a href="http://s774.photobucket.com/albums/yy22/david_gutkin/?action=view&current=IMG_0435.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i774.photobucket.com/albums/yy22/david_gutkin/IMG_0435.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

I am still running GFO and Carbon.

Nate R
08/04/2010, 04:50 PM
updates?

dg3147
08/04/2010, 05:20 PM
So, about 4 weeks ago I weaned off the Vodka and switched to NP reducing pellets. Prior to the switch, my N03 dropped nicely to 2.5-5 and P04 remained 0. However, my LPS starting looking pretty beat up about 2-3 weeks into the vodka dosing. All the other corals really brightened up about 20% and growth increased about the same. The ones that seemed to respond best were the montiporas which really became brighter and grew fast.

Since stopping the vodka, my colors appear to be the same; though, montipora growth appears to have slowed.

This week, I began adding Prodobio Reef Booster, Sr, Mb, and iodine in addition to the MB7/NP pellets.

I will see if I have time to add some photos in a few...

dg3147
08/04/2010, 05:29 PM
FTS:
<a href="http://s774.photobucket.com/albums/yy22/david_gutkin/NP%20pellet%20update%20and%20FTS/?action=view&current=IMG_0446.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i774.photobucket.com/albums/yy22/david_gutkin/NP%20pellet%20update%20and%20FTS/IMG_0446.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

Left left tank shot:
<a href="http://s774.photobucket.com/albums/yy22/david_gutkin/NP%20pellet%20update%20and%20FTS/?action=view&current=IMG_0444.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i774.photobucket.com/albums/yy22/david_gutkin/NP%20pellet%20update%20and%20FTS/IMG_0444.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

Right:
<a href="http://s774.photobucket.com/albums/yy22/david_gutkin/NP%20pellet%20update%20and%20FTS/?action=view&current=IMG_0445.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i774.photobucket.com/albums/yy22/david_gutkin/NP%20pellet%20update%20and%20FTS/IMG_0445.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

And the target "pink" bird's nest and sps. There is, at last, some pink to it now! (not sure if you can appreciate it in the photos, but it's pretty dramatic).
<a href="http://s774.photobucket.com/albums/yy22/david_gutkin/NP%20pellet%20update%20and%20FTS/?action=view&current=IMG_0443.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i774.photobucket.com/albums/yy22/david_gutkin/NP%20pellet%20update%20and%20FTS/IMG_0443.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

dg3147
08/04/2010, 05:37 PM
And here's a side by side comparison:

Before:
<a href="http://s774.photobucket.com/albums/yy22/david_gutkin/Pre-Vodka%20March%202010/?action=view&current=IMG_0392.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i774.photobucket.com/albums/yy22/david_gutkin/Pre-Vodka%20March%202010/IMG_0392.jpg" border="0" alt="More key Corals"></a>


08/2010 (3 months on vodka and a few weeks on Pellets --with some transiton between):
<a href="http://s774.photobucket.com/albums/yy22/david_gutkin/NP%20pellet%20update%20and%20FTS/?action=view&current=IMG_0447.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i774.photobucket.com/albums/yy22/david_gutkin/NP%20pellet%20update%20and%20FTS/IMG_0447.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

The photos don't do it justice --it's really much brighter in coloration now.

Arizonah13
08/04/2010, 06:38 PM
Wow! That is some good growth. Thank you for documenting it! Also, is that a sun coral (or some type of NPS coral) on the left of your tank? Its gorgeous!!

Genetics
08/04/2010, 06:57 PM
Looks like the corals really had a transformation there in coloration! Keep us posted on how the BP / prodibio/ MB7 additions go.

dg3147
08/05/2010, 12:58 AM
Wow! That is some good growth. Thank you for documenting it! Also, is that a sun coral (or some type of NPS coral) on the left of your tank? Its gorgeous!!

It's Jumbo Dendrophyllia, I think I bought them from "Unique Corals" online. I've now had both those and Sun Corals and I really like these quite a bit. They are pretty much open all day and night --making feeding them easier.

You can see some unopened sun coral on the lower left aspct of the arch --these are doing fair, but feeding them is problematic without overfeedin gthe tank.

thanks for the kind words everyone!

Arizonah13
08/05/2010, 05:48 PM
It's Jumbo Dendrophyllia, I think I bought them from "Unique Corals" online. I've now had both those and Sun Corals and I really like these quite a bit. They are pretty much open all day and night --making feeding them easier.

You can see some unopened sun coral on the lower left aspct of the arch --these are doing fair, but feeding them is problematic without overfeedin gthe tank.

thanks for the kind words everyone!

Thank you for clarifying the name! I'm off to google them now. :)

P.S. I love the big beast in your avatar. :)

dg3147
08/14/2010, 02:11 PM
here are the latest updates (using my Droid Camera vs my crumby point-and-shoot-super-expensive-not-sure-what-settings-to-use Cannon Elph):

Right Side:
<a href="http://s774.photobucket.com/albums/yy22/david_gutkin/?action=view&current=11f6c42a.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i774.photobucket.com/albums/yy22/david_gutkin/11f6c42a.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

Left Side:
<a href="http://s774.photobucket.com/albums/yy22/david_gutkin/?action=view&current=a6b06371.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i774.photobucket.com/albums/yy22/david_gutkin/a6b06371.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

And the target coral:
<a href="http://s774.photobucket.com/albums/yy22/david_gutkin/?action=view&current=7b8c6d8f.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i774.photobucket.com/albums/yy22/david_gutkin/7b8c6d8f.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

wickedfish
08/14/2010, 02:42 PM
Your tank looks pimp, Nice everything, my pink stag also got pinker with the vodka dosing alot pinker it was brownish pink but 3 weeks after fuzzy bright pink like never before my large colony of an ugly millepora also colored up others stayed the same but all grew. Good updates man.

CUZ
08/14/2010, 02:43 PM
so in your opinion pellets over the vodka?

dg3147
08/14/2010, 02:59 PM
I only ran vodka for 4-6 weeks and then changed over to NP bio pellets for about 6 weeks, with some overlap in between; so, I'm not sure I am entitled to an opinion on this. But, here are my conclusions:

1) I am VERY glad I began dosing --the results were truly amazing.
2) N03 went much lower during the process. PO4 were always low.
3) I also began adding Prodobio reefbooster once per week (for last 3 weeks only) and have always dosed MB7 since beginning dosing...this muddies the water on my conclusion. With that said, my corals seem to love to Reefbooster (and my wallet hates it).
4) I push a lot of flow through my pellets and run in a great reactor that provides even flow. I had better results when I used the maximum recommended dose of pellets (the package gives a wide range of 50-200mL of pellets/100 liters).
5) Dosing vodka daily was a bit of a pain.
6) You cannot get a buzz from the pellets. :frog:

In summary: If the results hold steady over the next few months, Pellets will be the winner.

ingtar_shinowa
08/14/2010, 03:06 PM
nice thread i like your tank too

ingtar_shinowa
08/14/2010, 03:08 PM
Also im surprised by the growth you are getting with the same lights i have... i think i need to stay on top of my dosing or at LEAST get Kalk going

Topbloke72
08/14/2010, 05:14 PM
Which Nextreef reactor and pump are you using?

Thanks

1sirjustis
08/14/2010, 05:27 PM
no kidding look at the pic b4 vodka, and then after! MUCH clearer!!!!!!!! do the BP have a rep for clearing up the watercolumn???

dg3147
08/15/2010, 09:56 AM
no kidding look at the pic b4 vodka, and then after! MUCH clearer!!!!!!!! do the BP have a rep for clearing up the watercolumn???

My water has always been fairly clear, not sure i noticed a difference. It sort of depends on how much gunk my Diamond Goby is tossing up that day. But "people" say it does clear the water a bit. For sure, I have heard this about vodka as well.

dg3147
08/15/2010, 09:59 AM
Which Nextreef reactor and pump are you using?

Thanks

I am using the SMR1 Nextreef Reactor, powered by a Tunze Silence 1073.02 pump dialed back just slightly.

dg3147
08/15/2010, 10:01 AM
Also im surprised by the growth you are getting with the same lights i have... i think i need to stay on top of my dosing or at LEAST get Kalk going

I've been dosing kalk the whole time, so far no problems maintaining Ca levels. I've heard case reports of biopellets reducing pH. I imagine it might help a little in this regard. I have not checked my pH yet.

dg3147
08/15/2010, 10:01 AM
Also im surprised by the growth you are getting with the same lights i have... i think i need to stay on top of my dosing or at LEAST get Kalk going

Truly the best light color combo ever.

ingtar_shinowa
08/15/2010, 10:06 AM
I agree! though i have a white in mine i wish was another ATI blue plus

dg3147
08/18/2010, 03:55 PM
Today's parameters (Salifert test kits):
NO3 0-0.2 (undetectable)
PO4 0 (undetectable)
Ca 440
pH 8.4
kH 6.4 *****this is odd; it has been rock steady at 8.4-9.4 since feb 2010**** (I gotta read up on how to fix it).

Colors all look decent. My chaeto in the refuge still seems to grow pretty fast. Tank glass still needs cleaning every couple days.

builderguy
08/19/2010, 12:39 PM
Today's parameters (Salifert test kits):
NO3 0-0.2 (undetectable)
PO4 0 (undetectable)
Ca 440
pH 8.4
kH 6.4 *****this is odd; it has been rock steady at 8.4-9.4 since feb 2010**** (I gotta read up on how to fix it).

Colors all look decent. My chaeto in the refuge still seems to grow pretty fast. Tank glass still needs cleaning every couple days.

I seem to remember reading in one of the pellet threads that kh can drop...

DustinB
08/19/2010, 02:50 PM
Just thought I'd add this in there because I'm almost in the same boat as you were a month or 2 ago, but I'm still vodka dosing.

I did notice some of my softies not fully expanding anymore after a few weeks. I did notice my water was very clear, even more clear than it had been with a reactor full of carbon. I started feeding Rod's food a few times a week and after about a week the softies started fully extending again.

I don't know if it was the food compensating for ultra clean nutrient free water or if it was just the corals finally getting used to higher intensity light from the clear water. I am still dosing vodka and I'm sticking at 2.3mL now, currently at 2ppm nitrate and slowly dropping, 0 phosphates.

I wanted to switch to a pellet reactor but vodka is cheaper. You're right, dosing it is a pain to keep from forgetting. I think I'm just going to buy a BRS doser for the vodka though.

As for growth and color, I am starting to see a noticeable increase in growth and mild color enhancement, but I'm still not at 0 yet.

The only negative effect I've really had so far is a mild cyano outbreak in some areas of the sand.

dg3147
08/27/2010, 01:25 PM
For sure my corals are browning up since running the NP reducing pellets and ceasing vodka. My pellets are certainly "working", since my PO4 and NO4 are now undetectable.

I thought perhaps my nutrients were too low, so I've been doing Prodobio Reef Booster for a month and this week I also starting adding AA's every coupled days.

I am really thinking about adding Vodka again (a small dose in addition to the pellets). I think Vodka may do sometihing unknown in addition to drive down NO3 levels. It must increase a specific strain of bacteria different from the pellets.

thoughts?