Help with sump/micor bubbles/drain/bubble trap

[djaz0503]

here's a pic of my bubble machine.....aka sump. I'm having a terribly hard time stopping the micro bubbles that are being sucked up and blown back into the DT. The bubbles are a result of the drain, which I have tried probably 10 different modifications to reduce the flushin/burping when the water reaches the sump. The sump was built for me by one of my LFS and I think the bubble trap baffles are not spaced far enough apart, only about 5/8 inch between each baffle, and its allowing the bubbles to flow right through and get sucked up by the return pump. The next big problem is I can't get the sump out without removing the entire DT and lifting the sump out of the stand. I'm not sure what would be the easiest/best thing to do to control the bubbles.

1. Drain the sump and remove the current bubble trap baffles and respace them and resilicone.

2. Add 2 baffles at the left of the sump creating a bubble trap at the beginning of the sump.

40 gallon breeder, 1" hole in the overflow, 1" stand pipe with strainer and an airline inserted inside to stop the sucking noise, 1" drain with reverse durso. 20 gallon long sump, Blue Line 40 HD-X return pump.


Here's a pic of the sump.

[Eric Williams]

Try putting a 100 micron filter sock on the drain pipe that comes into your sump. I have a similar problem with mine with the micro bubbles and the socks solved the issue. The down side to the filter socks is that they need to be removed and cleaned every two or three days. The good part is that you will be amazed at how much stuff they take out of the water. To clean mine I rinse them out in the sink and then run them through the washing machine twice. The first cycle with bleach, NO SOAP OR DETERGENT, and then one cycle to rinse them. I have about six socks and just change them out as they get clogded up.
Hope this helps.

[djaz0503]

how do the filter socks attach to the drain pipe?

[Saltyllama]

metal hanger? :)

[karaandnick]

could also be your skimmer putting bubbles in the water, in this case you can put a sock on the exit pipe of your skimmer. Also I don't know how long you have had it running but sometimes after a few weeks they will develop a slime coat and this will cut down on bubbles. For me I had to add a piece of non dense foam in between 2 of the 3 bubble traps that you have on the right side.

[djaz0503]

It's not the skimmer for sure. The tank has been running for about 3-4 weeks and has started building up a slime coat but it hasn't effected the bubbles. Adding foam restricts the flow to the pump too much and forces me to reduce the flow going back into the tank as well as doesn't help control the bubbles.

[djaz0503]

anybody else????

[losthere]

Try slowing the flow through the sump by throttling back your return. The bubbles are moving very fast through the sump. Due to the high flow they are being pushed through rather than having enough time to float to the top.
Also by slowing the flow through the sump the skimmer will work more efficiently due to longer dwell time. HTH

[rbredding]

your problem is that you have a drain section.. but the water comes down from the tank, fills the drain section and has to go OVER a baffle to get to the next section... when it goes up and over, it takes with it everything on the surface of the drainage section (like the bubbles caused from the free fall of water down the drain)

if you want to go a LONG way towards fixing the problem, take out the baffle on the left side of the picture (silicone and all) and raise it about 1 inch off the bottom of the sump.

that will let the water flow under the baffle, while the bubbles raise to the top of the drain section, (without any way to get into the return)

just doing that alone will eliminate probably 90% of your problem.. a foam block at the bottom of the drainage section that will catch the remaining bubbles and let only clear water through.....

the rest will raise to the top and dissipate or be caught by the bubble trap..

[losthere]

your problem is that you have a drain section.. but the water comes down from the tank, fills the drain section and has to go OVER a baffle to get to the next section... when it goes up and over, it takes with it everything on the surface of the drainage section (like the bubbles caused from the free fall of water down the drain)

if you want to go a LONG way towards fixing the problem, take out the baffle on the left side of the picture (silicone and all) and raise it about 1 inch off the bottom of the sump.

that will let the water flow under the baffle, while the bubbles raise to the top of the drain section, (without any way to get into the return)

just doing that alone will eliminate probably 90% of your problem.. a foam block at the bottom of the drainage section that will catch the remaining bubbles and let only clear water through.....

the rest will raise to the top and dissipate or be caught by the bubble trap..

He has a bubble trap that is above the water line before the return pump. It makes no sense to have a bubble trap before the skimmer since the skimmer will just create more micro bubbles.
My sump just has one bubble trap after the simmer and before the return pump, and I have no problems with micro bubbles.
IMO I would just remove the first trap, and try to reduce the flow through the sump.

[rbredding]

He has a bubble trap that is above the water line before the return pump. It makes no sense to have a bubble trap before the skimmer since the skimmer will just create more micro bubbles.
My sump just has one bubble trap after the simmer and before the return pump, and I have no problems with micro bubbles.
IMO I would just remove the first trap, and try to reduce the flow through the sump.

I wasn't entering into a debate as to what might work.


I was telling him something to change that I know will work..

I've got a similarly sized sump and the exact same return pump.
I don't care if he fixes it or not, I was just letting him know how to fix it if he wants to..

the manufacturer of the BL pumps doesn't recommend "valving down" the pump so that's not an option...

fact of the matter is that it's really too much pump for the sump (over 900gph @5' rise)..
without replacing the pump, do what I suggested and you'll eliminate the microbubbles..

[Rekonn]

Change your plumbing to a Herbie style setup - no bubbles from the drain at all that way.

[djaz0503]

rbredding

Your idea seems very logical and I had thought of that as well. In addition to raising the first baffle, I was also thinking of adding a 4th baffle to the bubble trap making it over, under, over, under.....what do you think?

I chose the BL 40x pump for a reason. That being because with the amount of flow in combination with the SCWD I won't need to use any powerheads in the DT. Plus, as you noticed I don't have a refugium in the sump, this way I don't have to reduce the flow, the ultimate plan is to have a satelite refugium next to the DT.

[rbredding]

Djaz..

I think that would work very well... the combination of those two features should eliminate your issues..

I understand your desire for a "high flow" sump, I've got the same designs, but I'm also running powerheads in my DT..

I also have a remote (isolated) refugium that sits higher than the sump and is fed directly from the drainage system. Flow into the 'fuge is controlled by a 3/4" gate valve so that I can completely cut off supply, drainage from the 'fuge is via 1.5" bulkhead that drains directly into the 2nd compartment of my sump...

Here is an older picture when I first setup the system.. now I'm running an external skimmer..

[djaz0503]

Raising the baffle didn't work, it actually made the bubbles flow through the sump faster. I'm soooooo frustrated with this whole situation I'm about to pack it all up and be done with this tank.

Will the Herbie method work on a my set up? I'll have to take the whole setup down, but does anyone think it will be worth the trouble?

[rbredding]

Did you use the foam block ? (insert a coarse foam block at the first baffle) it will strain the bubbles and raise the level of water in the first chamber slightly..
A fine foam block will probably clog too quickly, get a couple blocks so that you can swap them out and have a clean one on the ready (I do this about every 10 days to 2 weeks). I turn off the return pump and let everything drain down into the sump, then replace the block with a clean(ed) one.. then start everything back up.. if you remove the foam block while the pump is running, all the detritus that is caught in it will fall out and run through your sump, and then into your display..

if you need to, cut it down so it's a snug fit across the entire length of the bottom..

:)

[djaz0503]

yepp tried that and it didn't help much at all. I actually took the first baffle out again to see what would happen without it in there and that doesn't help either.

So correct me if I'm wrong, the overflow/standpipe/drain should slow down if I throttle back the return pump? Why, when I do that does the slower flow seem to create just as much bubbles?

[hillscp]

I can guarantee you that the Herbie method will solve your problems. I know first hand as I went through the exact problems you are facing.

Just use both holes in your overflow for drains, one main and one emergency. Run your return up over the side. There are plenty of examples on this site.

Check ou this video for the basics.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Pv3u0Sa1tk&feature=player_embedded

[rbredding]

? it could possibly come from your plumbing that leaves the sump and connects to the intake of the return pump..

any salt creep on the fittings between the sump and return pump? (that would be a dead giveaway)?

you can always try another foam block at the bubble trap to see if that helps.. (first "over")

[Drewbaby]

The way the bubble traps are supposed to work by having the water go over-under-over it forces the bubbles to com to the surface during the over stages, but in the pic you posted it looks as if the water is about 1" above the over baffles and they may be too short to get the bubbles all the way to the surface. Again as others have stated it may be due to the large amount of turnover you have through your sump. I have a pump that is too big fort entire setup, but can't scale it back enough to completly eliminate my bubbles because my sump is one of those prebuilt acrylic ones with no room to add bubble traps. I wish I had a glass tank for a sump but I'm in the same boat you are with having to remove the display in order to get the old sump out.

Try adjusting the current bubble trap. Maybe add another step like you stated and see how it works. I would even try adding another bubble trap at the drain side of the sump in an over-under-over pattern. It can't hurt and it's alot better than having to tear everything apart including the display

[hillscp]

Here are my drains. I have two mains. There is around 1200 GPH flowing through there and they are throttled back. See any bubbles? The splashing sound is from the skimmer return. It sounds louder than it is when the microphone is 12" away.

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The best way to design a system is to design it without flaws rather than design fixes for the flaws after the fact. Sponges and filter socks might stop the bubbles but they will add to your maintenance chores for ever and ever and ever. I have that same blueline pump plus a little giant (two pumps). You will not be able to run it full throttle without micro bubbles and gurgling as long as you are injecting air into the drain.

[BrokenSpoke]

^^^^^^^^^ Nice job on the flow through the sump. Now, how did you do it?

[djaz0503]

the BlueLine pump and current return plumbing will be converted into a closed loop system. Use a smaller pump such as a Quiet One 3000 as the new return pump, this will slow the flow going down the drain reducing the amount of bubbles entering the sump as well as reduce the flow through the sump which will potentially reduce the chance of microbubbles going back into the DT.

Does this sound right???

[williamh]

can you see the micro bubble travel from the overflow side? How old is the skimmer? Willaim

[djaz0503]

skimmer is off, too much flow in sump

[williamh]

ok, sorry. did you get the problem solved then?

[djaz0503]

New Idea.....

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

the BlueLine pump and current return plumbing will be converted into a closed loop system. Use a smaller pump such as a Quiet One 3000 as the new return pump, this will slow the flow going down the drain reducing the amount of bubbles entering the sump as well as reduce the flow through the sump which will potentially reduce the chance of microbubbles going back into the DT.

Does this sound right???

[Saltyllama]

Quiet1 3000 is not a small pump. What size is the DT and sump again? On my 90 DT with 22g fuge/sump I run a quiet1 1200. Had a 2200 before and decided to slow it down more.

[rbredding]

quiet1 isn't a QUIET pump either..


if you've got it on hand.. use it.. if you're gonna go buy one.. look at the new marineland utility pumps.. (they even have a dial on them that you can throttle down the flow if its still too fast. they also have a 3 year warranty and are very inexpensive - for your application should cost around $70)

[Skins]

I came up with this solution. http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1837045&highlight=reverse+durso At the time of this thread I just had everything temporarily fitted to test the system. I have since installed it permanently. Zero bubbles/gurgling.

[jb61264]

my sump is a 55 and has the same basic design as yours...my flow through the sump is VERY high (I use a Mag 18 to return to my 75 display)...however, the water from my display comes into my sump where yours is returning to the display AND I have my skimmer in that section. I return from the middle section and "T" off my return to the third section (on the left) which for me is a refugium. I can definitely see how you are having bubble issues...also, I would imagine you may have issues with your skimmer sitting in a section of the sump where there is a changing water level.

I think the best way to get rid of your frustration is to re-do your sump...I don't think you're really gaining anything by having that little bit of live rock rubble in your overflow area...if anything it will collect debris in there over time...a filter sock is good but I would just relocate that live rock to your display tank.