Design Flaws?

[angela1]

**Go easy on me**

I'm embarking on my first major DIY setup since entering the hobby. Just sold my 92 corner for a 210. I've done tons of reading & have enlisted the engineering mindset of my husband.

Looking for folks to tell me:

What won't work
What can be improved
What we've done wrong
What we've forgotten


Attached is a rough sketch of the various projects.

Description:
210 Gallon reef tank on 1st floor, over a crawl space.
55 Gallon sump directly below the tank.
100 Gallon stock tank 20 feet away in the garage.
RODI unit in the laundry room (but will deliver water directly to garage).

Total vertical climb is about 6-7' when water travels from the tank sump to the crawl space to the garage and up to the stock tank.

Under tank sump:
Will house a refugium, filter socks & filter pads.

Stock tank:
Will house MRC-2 Skimmer
1/2 HP Seahorse by Lifeguard (commercial pump, self priming) to run both skimmer and return
Live rock (not sure how much I need)
Will use nested containers to function as baffles
Will conduct water changes from the stock tank
Will install ATO in the stock tank

Tank:
Installing a SeaSquid Wavemaker for two returns
Installing airstones on battery backup that will only kick in if power goes out.

Floor supports:
Two 16000 lb compression floor jacks in the crawl.


CONCERNS:
When the pump turns off or power goes out not sure my sump in the cabinet will support the overflow, guessing some will flow to pipes in the crawl but not make the climb to the stock tank.

There are baffles at the end of my sump but not sure this will be enough to make the water quiet as it travels 20' to the garage under the house. Suggestions?

Not sure what it'll take to regulate temperature. I have about 3 or 4 heaters laying around from previous tanks. Right now the lighting fixture has HO Power Compacts with only 6 working. I plan to change the lights in the coming weeks with a couple engineers & hobbyists.

We plan to use true union ball valves on the pvc so when we move in two years, as expected, it will be a fairly quick disconnect & easy to reuse. Are these worth the money?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts! This build begins in two days.

[angela1]

Here's an updated diagram of the new tank build. Hopefully it's more clear.

(I don't know how to edit a post, can someone tell me where to find that option?)

Thanks!

[nanonubey]

It should be on the post you want to edit.

[dogstar74]

I have a hard time seeing the hand drawn picture, but I know it's not a good idea to have any water bearing vessles in the crawl space. The ventilation is not good, and you could end up with warped floor boards, mold, and dry rot. Pipes going into the floor, and then out of the building are ok, but don't have anything in the crawl space. Besides, it would make servicing equiptment harder to get to and then your tank maintenance would suffer.

Also, What is the point of the sump and the LR container? One will suffice. Once you have the LR container that is being topped off, and if this has the skimmer, then really all you need in that container is a heater, and you have a sump with refugium in one container! How much room can a heater take up that you need a sump under the main tank? Or is this for a silent overflow? You can do a really long herbie overflow from the main tank to the LR container in the garage if you put the adjustment valve in the garage. Then have a full flow unrestricted backup. Then no sweat, you don't need the sump under the tank.

You have a just purchased a boat load of equiptment if you're setting up a 210. Don't short change yourself with the SCWD. Go with the Oceans motions. I suspect most of your flow will come from power heads in the main display, as it seems like a long pull for the pump to give good circulation. The SCWD is a waste of money. And you don't need to divide your return which will save you plumbing costs and headaches.

I like the ATO and the Fresh RO storage bin, however I would incorporate two bins. One that will auto fill from the RO/DI filter and then a smaller one that will auto top off the rock tank. But you need to fill the smaller tank manually. That way if the ATO gets stuck on, you'll only put about 5 days worth of fresh water into the system.

That's all I can think of at the moment.

Hope it all works out!
Aaron

[dogstar74]

How about this?

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o206/dogstar74/Flawsdiagram.jpg

[angela1]

Great, thanks for your help!

I'll look into the other wavemaker you suggested, thanks for your review of the SCWD.

We weren't sure we needed a sump under the tank but the more the better we thought in terms of total water volume since the stock tank is only 100 gal. One of the biggest problems is that the tank doesn't share a wall with the garage which is why we have to use the crawl space for the pipes (there's a kitchen in between the tank wall and the garage). So if I remove the sump in the tank cabinet I'm afraid water won't make the climb from sump to garage to the stock tank. Which means it would simply overflow in my living room, yes?

We will also look at making the ATO more fail safe.

Thanks for your suggestions!

[dogstar74]

The premise cannot be compromised with that water MUST flow down and the be pumped up to the top with one pump. No matter how many vessles you put into the system, it will flow to the lowest point. So the vessle at the bottom must be able to accomodate all the additional flow from the other vessles in the event of a power outage. Remember that pumps that push water one way with the power on, can also allow water to flow backwards through them when the power is shut off. So you have to anticipate water returning to the lowest point, or you will have an overflow.

Thanks for clearing up that the sump would be in the stand and not the crawl space. It's ok for pipes to run through a crawl space. But you don't want any open water.

Cheers,
Aaron

[dogstar74]

Please post a schematic of the floor levels that you are concerned with. In other words, please draw a picture of the levels of the floor such as garage, kitchen, and tank display room. Then we can come up with something that works.

[angela1]

Okay I've attempted to create a floor layout diagram. We were going to use check valves so that water is only able to flow one direction so we don't flood the living room in a power outage.

Stock Tank
25” High

Kitchen/LR Floor = level

Garage Floor= -18” floor height

Clearance in crawl for PVC = -9” to clear floor supports

[dogstar74]

Is this accurate?

I have drawn the garage floor -18" from the other floor levels.
The area under the kitchen and the LR is the crawl space. You would need to bring the pipes in the crawl space into the Garage, and that would require drilling through concrete I presume. If not then great!

I know the rock basin is 29" high, but if it's put on the floor of the garage it should be fine.

A word about check valves, they are not needed nor are they reliable. They will over a very short time get encrusted with calcarious life forms and algae and will not close and seal. But if my diagram is accurate at the home levels, then a check valve will not be necessary.

One other question, What type of overflow do you have in the display tank. Is it a box on the outside? A siphon overflow? or is the back or bottom of the tank drilled? That would help with the design as well.

You don't need a check valve because the Display tank can only drain to the bottom of the teeth of the overflow. So really in a 210 gallon tank, there will be at most 20 gallons that skims off the top when the power goes out. Your sump in the garage that houses the skimmer and LR should be down from the top enough to allow for that additional 20 gallons to inflow without overflowing the sump. Then no check valve will be necessary.

Here's the newest rendition. This is a side view. Top down floor plans don't do much in the way of helping decide flow of water.

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o206/dogstar74/Flawsdiagram2.jpg

Hope this helps.
Aaron

[angela1]

You're awesome :)

The layout you have is correct (and clear!). The tank itself is drilled and we were going to use a 55 gallon sump in the bottom.

No concrete to drill through in the garage; we have a clear shot from the crawl through the wall of the garage.

Should we just skip the sump and go straight to the stock tank outside? I only have it because I lucked out and found it (it was a custom sump out of another tank) and snagged it for $125. I don't have to use it.

Thanks for the word on check valves, didn't realize they wouldn't be necessary in this design.

[dogstar74]

I would say yes, skip the sump and just use the stock tank. Running a Herbie or Bean overflow will require at minimum 3 pipes run from the tank to the stock tank, and with 4 being the bean overflow. But if you tank is drilled already then you probably only have two holes drilled. Search for a herbie overflow and you'll know what I mean.

When building the herbie style overflow, put the valve close to the stock tank end of the pipe, this will ensure the full length of pipe is full of water, and will be much quieter than if you have air in the pipe. In fact it will be silent.

A trick you can use to go through the floor, is to cut the holes all together so that later you can finish cutting a square hole in the floor boards, and "patch" the hole with a Floor register that you can get at home depot for about $1.

Save the sump, you may find a place to put a refugium in the system later or something, but this plan you have now will get you going for the time being.

Cheers!
Aaron

[dogstar74]

Here's a simplified set up for the Herbie Overflow.

Be sure you drill a hole in the return pipe because like I said before, when the pump power is off, it will siphon back to the sump. The correct position is labeled on the drawing as the siphon break hole.

Here is the correct position of the Herbie overflow adjustment valve. Put the valve close to the sump end of the pipe like this.
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o206/dogstar74/Flawsdiagram3.jpg

If you incorrectly put the valve next to the display, then air will always be present through the entire pipe, and you will hear the turbulent water flowing and it will be very noisy.
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o206/dogstar74/FlawsDiagram4.jpg

I hope this simplifies things for you.
Aaron

[angela1]

We were looking for diagrams online of the Herbie system. Thanks for taking the time to help a girl out :) Maybe I'll know enough one day to pay it forward to someone else. Electricians are here today putting in a new circuit to support the new build. Plumbing under the house is scheduled for this afternoon. We're getting there!