Bioballs

[TaijiBreeder]

Hi everyone, I'm about to set up a fish only tank (no corals or invertebrates or anything), and had planned a wet dry filter. When I went to the store to purchase everything needed, the employee very, very strongly recommended I don't use a wet dry filter, and instead look into something called "Zeolyth" (he said some are good and some bad), that are in rocks, and are always held underwater in the sump (with an extra pump running water over them). His claim was that wet/dry sumps are good for about 6 months, but then nitrates start building up like mad and the whole tank is at risk.

Any thoughts?

[James404]

You can use a wet/dry but take the bio balls out, they become nitrate factories, look into doing a refugium with live rock, sand and maybe some chaeto.

[j tavares]

wet dry filters produce nitrate thats what they are supposed to do less harmful then nitrite or worse NH3, water changes weekly and refugium can lower nitates but live rock in a sump submerged and in the tank with skimming and water movement as well as carbon is really in the long run your best bet. Good Luck!

[IslandCrow]

The Zeovit method is really for achieving ultra low nutrient levels, which is going to be mainly a benefit for those keeping corals, especially stony corals. I'm certainly no expert on Zeovit, nor have I used it before, but I don't see it being necessary for your plans. I'm sure the store owner is well meaning, but I definitely do not agree with him in this case. He may also be trying to exploit you of course, as selling you on that method is going to be a potential constant cash flow for him. I'd certainly look it up and do a little research to see if it's something your interested in. Also be sure to take into account how much renewing the supplies is going to cost you and if it's worth that cost.

For a fish only tank, a wet/dry with bioballs is fine, but I'd still recommend live rock and a good protein skimmer. If you were planning on getting live rock already, the cost difference probably isn't that much. If not, it's going to be a bit more significant, but even though nitrates are not a particular concern for saltwater fish, keeping your nitrates low is going to help with other issues, such as algae problems and the health of your invertebrates (snails, crabs, etc.).

[Allmost]

Do not use those rocks. they are not Zeovit rocks, they are Zeo liths, Zeo vit uses special zeo liths.

I want to make the point about wet dry and nitrate factory clear again.

wet dry system, does the same as live rocks do, except one thing.

they both convert nh4 to no2 and no2 to no3. VERY efficiently. BUT, Live rock has the ability to convert no3 to nitrogen gas. Wet Dry filter does not have that.

ways to lower no3 : Growing cheato in Fuge (really effective.)
Live rock.
DSB ( many different designs out there)
Skimming
GAC


nitrates are important in any type of water ! if you are lucky, and have trace elements, it will cause algae untill it balances itself out ! algae is not bad, it just doenst look good :)

no3 will stress fish, and make them eat less. eating less = weaker fish, and a weak fish can not fight parasites and diseases.

[Michael]

the wet dry and bio balls for a fish only is my recommendation, the filtration will be fantastic with this set up, if you were considering corals id try my hardest to talk you out of this, as its fish only id strongly recommend you do go along this route, get your hand in the tank daily to remove film algae and definately go with the wet dry and bio balls, superb biological filteration for this type of aquaria ime

[cloak]

I see plenty of threads where people are using a quality skimmer in connection with a refuge/chaeto and are still having issues with nitrates. Bioballs are not the problem IMO, it's the aquarist husbandry that's to blame. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that you can't have a successful reef tank with a fully functional wet/dry system. No doubt whatsoever!

Have a nice day. :)

[Stuart60611]

Check out page 1 of the below thread. I think it will help you understand the issue with bioballs.

Bottom line: If you use rock and a sandbed as a means of filtration, then the use of bioballs is likely counter-productive, whether in a wet dry filter or otherwise.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1818967&highlight=trends

[Michael]

30 years of experience using ladies plastic hair curlers which are identical to bio balls except a slighty different shape is enough for me, the crap about them spoken by many new aquarists dont fool me, for a fish only bio balls are fine, for a reef, forget it, but the op is talking fish only.

[Stuart60611]

30 years of experience using ladies plastic hair curlers which are identical to bio balls except a slighty different shape is enough for me, the crap about them spoken by many new aquarists dont fool me, for a fish only bio balls are fine, for a reef, forget it, but the op is talking fish only.

Bioballs are fine for fish only tanks. However, they are absolutely very counterproductive for fowlrs or fish only with live (or base) rock for all the reasons described in the thread I posted above. Somehow, I think I would have to follow Randy's view on this stated in his published article since he is considered here on this forum as perhaps the most knowlegeable person on reef chemistry and the like.

[Michael]

Bioballs are fine for fish only tanks. However, they are absolutely very counterproductive for fowlrs or fish only with live (or base) rock for all the reasons described in the thread I posted above. Somehow, I think I would have to follow Randy's view on this stated in his published article since he is considered here on this forum as perhaps the most knowlegeable person on reef chemistry and the like.

id never suggest randys thoughts and experiences were wrong , ever, im just saying too much crap is posted about the negative and not the positive about this subject, those of us who have used them or the equivelent of them know they are very efficient in biological filtration in a wet dry, theres no doubt through experienced reefers findings they cant remove nitrate as well as other media, but theres no media i can think of which can do a better job as a biological filteration media by converting ammonia and nitrite and hold as many colonys per square inch, they are as good as any and web site hype isnt fair on them imo.

[IslandCrow]

Michael is absolutely correct that bioballs are very efficient at converting ammonia and nitrite. They're not going to export nitrates like you can do with live rock, but that's not a direct concern for a fish only tank. Personally, I think I'd still go with live rock and a good skimmer, but a wet/dry filter is a perfectly viable option.

[thekeyofb]

I personally use live rock in my tank, bio balls in my wet/dry filter with PO4 reactor, Carbon reactor and UV sterilizer. I have a reef aquarium and it runs fine. The thing about bio balls if you use them is to remember that they have to be cleaned, just like any other filter media. If you swap them out a little at a time and clean them, also do your water changes and other filter cleaning and changes, then there in nothing wrong with using bio-balls.

The problem that everyone has with bio-balls is that they don't clean them and swap them out like they are suppose to do. Then they blame the bio-balls for the nutrient spikes. Bio-balls are just like any other filter media. They require cleaning and swapping out from time to time. So, when you remove your filter pads and clean them, you need to take maybe 25% or 50% of your bio balls and clean them as well.

Please don't listen to the negativity about the bio balls. When treated properly, they do a great job. Now if you don't want to spend the extra time it takes to run bio balls, then I would suggest live rock in a sump with a refugium. Just know that the bio balls aren't the problem. People that refuse to maintain them properly are the problem.

IMO

[cloak]

FWIW, you can swap the bioballs with those small plastic ping pong balls in a wet/dry and still get the same results. You'll loose some surface area, which I don't think would be of a concern, but it will take the accumulation of detritus right out of the equation.

:)

[Stuart60611]

The problem of using bioballs with rock has nothing to do with issues of gunk geting trapped in the bioballs and keeping the bioballs clean. As Randy has pointed out in his article, it has to do with physics and namely diffusion. Because the bioballs cannot convert nitrate to nitrogen gas like rock, the excess nitrate given off by the bioballs has to diffuse to the rock to get converted to nitrogen gas which ultimately slows down the waste conversion process. In contrast and in the abscense of bioballs, the rock breaks down the ammonia to nitrite, the nitrite to nitrate, and the nitrate to nitrogen gas all in immediate proximity. When you use bioballs with rock, the biological filter is less effecient because the bioballs very efficiently break down waste to nitrate, but there is long lag until the nitrate diffuses to the rock to be broken down to nitrogen gas. As such, you obtain excess concentrations of nitrate in the system because all the nitrate given off by the bioballs cannot diffuse to the rock fast enough to be broken down. This lag is even more pronounced in most systems which use both a wet dry filter and rock because the rock is in the display and the bioballs are in the sump, and therefore the nitrate given off by the bioballs has to diffuse all the way from the sump to the display to be broken down to nitrogen gas.The gunk that may accumulate in the bioballs in not the cause of the excess nitrate.

[thekeyofb]

I agree Stuart....the science does not lie. Live Rock CAN become less efficient with the use of bio-balls. However, it has everything to do with the detritus and gunk being trapped in the bio-balls. It's a very simple case of casue and effect.

When the bio-balls are not taken out of the system, cleaned and swapped out like they should be, they put out more and more nitrates (that's the cause). At this point, the Live Rock can't convert them to nitrogen gas fast enough to be efficient (that's the effect).

As stated before, I use them in my system and I have used them since I first started my system. My reef tank is thriving. So, the solution (if you choose to use bio-balls) is to clean and swap them out just like any other filter media.

[Stuart60611]

I agree Stuart....the science does not lie. Live Rock CAN become less efficient with the use of bio-balls. However, it has everything to do with the detritus and gunk being trapped in the bio-balls. It's a very simple case of casue and effect.

When the bio-balls are not taken out of the system, cleaned and swapped out like they should be, they put out more and more nitrates (that's the cause). At this point, the Live Rock can't convert them to nitrogen gas fast enough to be efficient (that's the effect).

As stated before, I use them in my system and I have used them since I first started my system. My reef tank is thriving. So, the solution (if you choose to use bio-balls) is to clean and swap them out just like any other filter media.

Again, with all due respect, I completely disagree. Keeping the bioballs clean has absolutely nothing to do with them puting out more or less nitrate. Any organics which accumulate on dirty bioballs is broken down by the bioballs ultimately the same way as any other organics. The problem is that the bioballs stop with converting waste to nitrate which has to travel and be absorbed by the rock before it can be broken down to nitrogen gas. The use of bioballs and rock will result is a large amount of excess nitrate in the system which otherwise would not occur. Now, you can break down the excess nitrate anyway, but the biological filter would be more efficient, meaning fully process more waste at a faster pace, if the system only had rock and not bioballs and rock.

[Stuart60611]

In addition, many will argue that the accumulation of nitrate in a system using both bioballs and rock is of no consequence when the system only houses fish b/c fish do not have any known health problems living with excess nitrate. However, in a fish only system usually consisting of large carnivores whom you have to feed lots of food create lots of waste. Moreover, systems that house large carnivores usually cannot maintain a clean up crew because the fish will eat the clean up crew. In this context, accumulation of excess nitrate can be a real problem because the display winds up being overrun with algae fed by the excess nitrate. Excess nitrate will not likely harm your fish, but it will result in a very ugly algae infested display.

[thekeyofb]

Respectfully, that is why this discussion has gone on for a very long time. This is not the first or the last time people will agree or disagree on the use or non use of bio-balls. All I can share is my experience and I can suggest that everyone does his/her own research.

When I first started my system, I had a lot of people telling me not to use the bio-balls and some arguing for the use of bio-balls. I went with the bio-balls and they have worked for me. They are a lot of extra work and in my next system, I may not use them. However, I can't say how much more efficient my Live Rock would be with or without me maintaining my bio-balls. As I stated before, my system is running fine.

So, what I can say is that my system has been running for years with no problems. The only animal that I ever loss was a yellow tang (that I think was already dying when I purchased him). I guess the moral of this thread is to listen to all legitiment arguments, do your research and come up with a system that works for you. However, what you shouldn't listen to is anyone saying that running bio-balls on a reef tank is not possible. That's just not true and I'm living proof.

[Stuart60611]

Respectfully, that is why this discussion has gone on for a very long time. This is not the first or the last time people will agree or disagree on the use or non use of bio-balls. All I can share is my experience and I can suggest that everyone does his/her own research.

When I first started my system, I had a lot of people telling me not to use the bio-balls and some arguing for the use of bio-balls. I went with the bio-balls and they have worked for me. They are a lot of extra work and in my next system, I may not use them. However, I can't say how much more efficient my Live Rock would be with or without me maintaining my bio-balls. As I stated before, my system is running fine.

So, what I can say is that my system has been running for years with no problems. The only animal that I ever loss was a yellow tang (that I think was already dying when I purchased him). I guess the moral of this thread is to listen to all legitiment arguments, do your research and come up with a system that works for you. However, what you shouldn't listen to is anyone saying that running bio-balls on a reef tank is not possible. That's just not true and I'm living proof.

Well, as I indicated above, the excess nitrate can be broken down anyway, and the use of both bioballs and rock will not result in the system being incapeable of adequately maintaining livestock. Rather, I am simply pointing out that the use of bioballs and rock is a far less efficient biological filter than rock alone. You can travel to a destination using different routes and end up at the same place. However, one cannot deny that one route may be shorter than another. Running your system with a less efficient biological filter can work, but it is not optimal.

[thekeyofb]

Again...we agree. Access nitrates will cause ugly algea blooms and I would even argue that access nitrates will cause your water clarity to be a problem as well. However, it doesn't matter if it's a FO, FOWLR or REEF system, the proper maintinence has to be done to remove access nutrients period. I don't know of any filtration system that doesn't require regular maintinence. If there is a such system, I need that information because I would run out and purchase it now. LOL

[thekeyofb]

Well stated Stuart....I just can't say whether or not my filtration system is less efficient. Let me use your own example: If we are both traveling to a destination and we take different routes to get there...(and we arrive at the same time), who's to say your route or my route is less efficient? What would be the control? What can you base that statement?

I mean, if I took all of my bio-balls out of my system tonight, I would still have a very successful reef tanks I would still have the same readings when I test, my water quality would still be good. So, ????? I don't know. All I can say is that we both arrived at the same place and at the same time.

[Stuart60611]

Well stated Stuart....I just can't say whether or not my filtration system is less efficient. Let me use your own example: If we are both traveling to a destination and we take different routes to get there...(and we arrive at the same time), who's to say your route or my route is less efficient? What would be the control? What can you base that statement?

I mean, if I took all of my bio-balls out of my system tonight, I would still have a very successful reef tanks I would still have the same readings when I test, my water quality would still be good. So, ????? I don't know. All I can say is that we both arrived at the same place and at the same time.


I guess I would say that we would not arrive at the same time. Yes, we both would get to the destination, but you would arrive later. :o Put another way, it may take you more gas to get there than me which is not a problem as long as you have enough gas in your car as you point out. I suggest that if you have enough rock in your system to handle your bioload and you now took out your bioballs, your system would process waste more effectively and allow you to feed more heavily and even stock heavier while still maintaining good parameters. A more efficient biological filter means the system can handle more waste which allows for more livestock and healthier livestock b/c you can feed closer to as much as your animals need as opposed to being constrained to feed as much as your system can handle. Also, puting aside replenishment of trace elements, a more effecient biological filter allows for less frequent water changes.

[thekeyofb]

OK......point taken. (not agreed upon) However, point taken. LOL

[Stuart60611]

OK......point taken. (not agreed upon) However, point taken. LOL

Very funny.

[tivoklr]

OK, well, I've got bio balls, in a wet dry, with rock in a 75 gal reef tank.

I can see detritus on the bio balls, they're very visible. Should I take them out and rinse in sw? If I were to ditch them and go with rock, do you put rock in the "dry" part of the filter too?

Conversely, I think the wet/dry part of my system might be a great place to grow cheeto...

[Stuart60611]

OK, well, I've got bio balls, in a wet dry, with rock in a 75 gal reef tank.

I can see detritus on the bio balls, they're very visible. Should I take them out and rinse in sw? If I were to ditch them and go with rock, do you put rock in the "dry" part of the filter too?

Conversely, I think the wet/dry part of my system might be a great place to grow cheeto...

Well, your question has multiple facets. As a general matter, yes you should periodically clean your bioballs of any traped detrus b/c you want your bioballs breaking down waste in the water column and not expending bacterial resources on trapped gunk. You should only clean them wth tank water so as not to kill the bacteria on them and do so quickly to minimize disrupting the bacteria as much as possible. As to removing the bioballs, whatever you do you should only remove them gradually in several increments so as to disrupt your system's biological filter as little as possible and allow your system to adjust. Whether you should (or even can) remove the bioballs will depend on whether you have enough rock in the system to handle your bioload on its own. As to how to use the former area of where the bioballs resided, you can put rock, chateo or other things in that space depending on what you are trying to accomplish and what the space allows for.

[thekeyofb]

I agree 100%...

[tivoklr]

TY, and sorry to threadjack.

[TaijiBreeder]

Wow, lots of replies in a short time, thank you everyone! The tank will only have fish in it (no corals or live rocks or whatever). I had planned on a sponge filter over the bioballs, water trickling into the bioballs, then from there the water going through a protein skimmer, then a UV light to kill parasites and everything, and finally pumped back up to the tanks (with another sponge filter protecting the pump from anything getting sucked in, just in case something was still there). So, I know this will require regular water changes, cleaning bioballs sponges skimmer etc, but would that be enough?

[cloak]

If anything, loose everything and see what you might need right of the bat first.

It's all you...

;)

[TaijiBreeder]

lose everything? As in, my fish all die? This will be done in a university, we're studying the embryos and fry, decided to add on salt water species (I've only been working with freshwater until now, never done anything with salt before). So, I don't think they would appreciate me just killing off everything they buy and then asking for more € to buy new ones :o

[thekeyofb]

TaijiBreeder.......your setup (for a fish only tank) is fine. However, I would encourage you to consider using Live Rock as well. While it's not a requirement for a fish only tank. I can tell you from experience that it really does aid in the health of your animals as well as the water quality of your entire system. I know it can be a high cost item, but here is what you can do about that....

Buy a bunch of "base rock or dead rock", set that up in your tank. Then, buy a very small amount of "live rock" and set it in your tank. Over time, the "dead rock" will become live. You will save money that way.

[Palting]

I have to marvel at the passion you all have for your own particular theory and philosophy. It's quite entertaining, like a boxing match between intellectuals, with an occasional jab from the peanut gallery! :)

TaijiBreeder, what you have described is the classic wet dry filter set-up, with the skimmer and UV filter as accessories. Yes, with proper maintenance, that will be enough.

I googled Zeolite/Zeolythe, your fish store recommendation, and found some interesting things. The only aquarium appropriate item I found was that it is used as an chemical adsorbent in ponds. It certainly is NOT a replacement for either bioballs or liverock. I would stop listening to whoever told you to use Zeolythe.

I also googled TAIJI, and also found very interesting things. Taiji can pertain to the Japanese island notorious for killing dolphins. It can also mean ultimate, or infinity, or yin/yang, or a form of art.

So, TaijiBreeder, do you intend to breed dolphins, or intend to have the "ultimate" breeding tank? I am curius as to your username.

[TaijiBreeder]

Thanks for the replies, it's good to hear this will be ok. And it's nice to know the Zeolythe is useless.

With the live (and, to start with, dead) rocks, can I put that in the sump or does it have to be in the tank?

And as far as the name, no, I'm not breeding dolphins or having the ultimate tank or anything :D. Not killing dolphins either! Taiji is short for Taijiquan, a Chinese martial art I practice (most people know it as "tai chi"). Most of my online names have "Taiji" in them somewhere. And, since I'm trying to set up a breeding tank, I just combined the two. No real deep meaning there.

Sorry for the late reply, went to the countryside for the weekend and had no internet access.

[thekeyofb]

If it were me, I would focus on placing the live (dead) rock inside the main tank and aquascaping it. If you choose to place it in your sump tank only, just make sure that the rock is covered by water at all times.

Too many times, people make the mistake of placing live rock in their sumps/wetdry systems and instead of the rock being completely covered by water, it's trickled over by water as if the rock is bio-balls. That's a big mistake and will lead to your tank cycling over and over again due to die off of the rock.

[Tuscaquatics]

You need mechanical filtration like a sponge before the wet/dry. This will prevent the detritus everyone is worried about. And the protein skimmer really should come first. Anything that makes it through the mechanical filtration will get trapped in the wet/dry. This stuff should be skimmed out before the water hits the bioballs.

You really want only clean, detritus-free water hitting your biological filtration like a wet/dry or fuge.