New guy with lots of questions

[panda bb]

Hey guys and gals, my names Dane, I live in Ocean Springs, MS. I am 25 and I am new to RC, had the owner of a nice fish store in Mobile tell me about the site and thought I would check it out since I am about to convert my 72 bow front to salt water.

It is currently freshwater with about 10 Parrot fish and some Cichlids of different kinds. It is being filtered by 2 AquaClear 110 HOB filters, I have about 80 lbs of crushed coral, Hydor Koralia 4, and I just bought my WavePoint T5 HO 4 bulb light last week and will be getting a RO-DI machine thing this weekend.

When I convert to salt I will be ditching the crushed coral for live sand, I've heard a lot of bad stories about CC and just like the look of sand in a marine tank. I would also like a different filtration system, not sure how well the aquaclear's will do in a marine tank eventhough I am moving 1000gph with them.

does anyone have any suggestions to what kind of filtration system I should use or are the two HOB filters good for a FOWLR setup? Links would be greatly appreciated.

also since I have installed the WavePoint T5 light, I can not keep my water clear, what is the trick to this?

sorry for the long intro and I would post pics but I know you guys dont wanna see my freshwater setup :hmm4:

[amr952]

You do not really need to run a filtration system on a saltwater tank if you have enough live rock and a live sand bed. The rock and sand as well as a clean up crew handle most of this for you.

If you can afford it you should strive to get a skimmer which will help a lot with particulates in the water.

Do you plan to have a sump?

[Uncle Salty 05]

You do not really need to run a filtration system on a saltwater tank if you have enough live rock and a live sand bed.


?

You're kidding right?

You definitely want to get a skimmer and if you are going sumpless you are going to want to buy new media for those Aquaclear 110s.
You need mechanical filtration in a SW tank just as much if not more so than in a FW system.

[dcombs44]

Some people use filters with salt tanks, but the preferred method of filtration is:

1) Live Rock
2) A good protein skimmer
3) Refugium with Macro-Algae

Filters with filter pads, bio-wheels, etc. can lead to nitrate issues if the pads are not cleaned multiple times a week.

[Allmost]

I say invest in a sump, cause then you can do anything you wish with it down the road. u wil have room and open options on skimmer,s reactors, fuge, ....

[Allmost]

You're kidding right?

You definitely want to get a skimmer and if you are going sumpless you are going to want to buy new media for those Aquaclear 110s.
You need mechanical filtration in a SW tank just as much if not more so than in a FW system.

mechanical filteration ??!!!

it depends right ? I knwo your side of argument.
but with no mechanical, u let the creatures take care of detritus and those will be used as food for fish and corals.

where in a mechanical filter they will get trapped and die and degrade water quality.

I use no mechanical filteration except skimmer.

[amr952]

You're kidding right?

You definitely want to get a skimmer and if you are going sumpless you are going to want to buy new media for those Aquaclear 110s.
You need mechanical filtration in a SW tank just as much if not more so than in a FW system.

No, I am not kidding.

Plenty of people run with just a skimmer and a refugium :)

[Uncle Salty 05]

Some people use filters with salt tanks, but the preferred method of filtration is:

1) Live Rock
2) A good protein skimmer
3) Refugium with Macro-Algae

Filters with filter pads, bio-wheels, etc. can lead to nitrate issues if the pads are not cleaned multiple times a week.

The three items mentioned above are all great but if you don't use a filter sock (impossible without a sump) or a pad or foam block for mechanical filtration you will have a detritus/algae farm in no time.
As long as they are rinsed in RO every 10 days or so they do not have time to become biological.

[dcombs44]

No, I am not kidding.

Plenty of people run with just a skimmer and a refugium :)

Agreed. There are many people that use filter socks and/or small filters to mechanically filter, but lots and lots of people use only biological filtration and protein skimming.

All of my tanks prior to this one had no mechanical filtration. This one does because I'm not using a protein skimmer.

[dcombs44]

The three items mentioned above are all great but if you don't use a filter sock (impossible without a sump) or a pad or foam block for mechanical filtration you will have a detritus/algae farm in no time.
As long as they are rinsed in RO every 10 days or so they do not have time to become biological.

There is no basis for this really. Regular water changes will remove far more than a filter sock will. I'm not saying that they are detrimental, but they are by no means required for success.

My last 55 gallon tank was 5 years old with no mechanical filtration, and a busted skimmer. I never had algae problems until I stopped making water changes.

[Uncle Salty 05]

I guess I am just old school, but I would never advise a noob to go without mechanical filtration.

I think I am beginning to understand all the threads warning not to touch your sand bed or your tank will crash.

[panda bb]

wow, touchy subject I see lol...I am wanting to do a sump actually, I saw a 3 section one that I liked yesterday on the web...just dont know how it all works, if someone can send me a link to a good diagram or something I will be able to figure it out.

Since I am about to drain my tank when I sell these Parrots, now's the best time to drill the tank and get it ready for a new filtration system.

this is the setup that I would like to do, just wonder how noisy it is, I am living on the second floor of a 1 bedroom apt lol.

http://www.aquariumlife.net/images/dougs_wet_sump.jpg

[Allmost]

I guess I am just old school, but I would never advise a noob to go without mechanical filtration.

I think I am beginning to understand all the threads warning not to touch your sand bed or your tank will crash.

so you mean u have no gas build up, no sulfure build up in your Sand bed ?

sand bed is totaly dead ?

[Uncle Salty 05]

so you mean u have no gas build up, no sulfure build up in your Sand bed ?

sand bed is totaly dead ?

No, I mean my sand bed is kept clean with mechanical fitration and regular stirring (even under the rocks at least yearly).
I have never smelled sulfur dioxide.

[dcombs44]

EDIT: Nevermind. Beat me to it.

[amr952]

Here is a link to may different sumps and it also describes how they work in general.

http://www.melevsreef.com/allmysumps.html

[Jstdv8]

I don't use any mechanical filtration, 90 gallon tank with 140 lbs of live rock and a deep sandbed. good to go.

[Uncle Salty 05]

I don't use any mechanical filtration, 90 gallon tank with 140 lbs of live rock and a deep sandbed. good to go.

Just out of curiosity, how long has your tank been up and running and how deep is your sand bed?

My tank is going on year 16 and my sand bed is approx. 4" deep.

[panda bb]

I think once I get the 80 lbs of sand in my tank I should have about 4" of sand so it sounds like I should be good there. I want to eventually put about 100 lbs of live rock in there but it will take time to get there.

I am not going to overload this tank with livestock. I've always wanted a lion fish, clown fish and yellow tang...seahorses and star fish...dont know how well that combo goes together though...always wanted a shark and living on the beach they are easy to come by but I know the introduction of a wild animal to a tank can bring all sorts of problems so I might not do the shark thing.

so does anyone else have a problem with the T5 HO lights making the water super algaefied (new word?)

What is the importance of RO-DI water? I've always heard if you don't use RO-DI you will have nothing but problems and its so much harder to take care of, but I know several people that use just regular tap water and they have no problems, are they just the lucky ones or would tap water work?

[amr952]

I think once I get the 80 lbs of sand in my tank I should have about 4" of sand so it sounds like I should be good there. I want to eventually put about 100 lbs of live rock in there but it will take time to get there.

I am not going to overload this tank with livestock. I've always wanted a lion fish, clown fish and yellow tang...seahorses and star fish...dont know how well that combo goes together though...always wanted a shark and living on the beach they are easy to come by but I know the introduction of a wild animal to a tank can bring all sorts of problems so I might not do the shark thing.

so does anyone else have a problem with the T5 HO lights making the water super algaefied (new word?)

What is the importance of RO-DI water? I've always heard if you don't use RO-DI you will have nothing but problems and its so much harder to take care of, but I know several people that use just regular tap water and they have no problems, are they just the lucky ones or would tap water work?

If you use tap water it is most likely just luck. One day you might get some contaminants in your water or maybe you never will. City water will usually have Chlorine in it so you will have to de-chlorinate the water and could have any other range of things in the water. If you have copper pipes in your house that could be deadly for a reef tank but an RO/DI unit will remove the copper along with many other things from you water.

Tap water may work fine for a while but that one time you get something in your tank you are going to wish you used RO/DI water.

[panda bb]

hey amr952 awesome link that helps me out a ton!

[sslak]

1. Sump
2. A good skimmer (doesn't have to be expensive, just has to work well!)
3. Refugium with macroalgae

That is the heart of a very solid system, you can get by without these things but I highly recommend starting with these three simple things. You can add other things like carbon or GFO media reactors as you gain experience.

Keep it simple in the beginning.

[Jstdv8]

Just out of curiosity, how long has your tank been up and running and how deep is your sand bed?

My tank is going on year 16 and my sand bed is approx. 4" deep.

8 months and 4" of sand. I do a 10 percent water change every Sunday.
I have a sump/fuge with macro alge screen (turf scrubber) i ahve a skimmer in there too but i turned it off a few months ago after the screen grew in a little.

[panda bb]

ok heres my tank as it sits now, sorry about the crappy iphone pics, ordered my 4G iphone yesterday

http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u139/daneisthegreatest/tank.jpg

http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u139/daneisthegreatest/tank2.jpg

http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u139/daneisthegreatest/tank3.jpg

http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u139/daneisthegreatest/tank4.jpg

http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u139/daneisthegreatest/tank5.jpg

I bought the tank used a year ago and the stained glass overlays were already on it and I Love It! but I know thats not gonna look good with the salt water tank so I will probably be pulling the overlays and painting the back blue and will also be painting the rails and stand black...I would love to make a canopy for the tank, it just dont look complete to me without one...

[Jstdv8]

I read a couple of the non RO/DI horror stories before I started and that was enough for me to go get one first thing.

[Jstdv8]

stained glass is pretty cool looking. I don't know how it would go with saltwater but i wouldnt neccesarily trash the idea until you try it :)

[panda bb]

so I've been bored today so I've done some research and planning and thought I would run it by everybody...I am thinking about 30 gallon tank, maybe a little bigger...and I think I have everything planned as far as the sump goes (please let me know if you see something wrong with my plans...

http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u139/daneisthegreatest/sump.jpg

so does the water from the DT gravity feed the sump, should I do an overflow box on the tank or just drill and put a bulkhead, how far down should i drill the tank for the sending and return line...am I just going to need to drill 2 holes or will I need more for any reason? I am hoping to run 1000gph, is that going to be too much for my 72 gallon or is that a good round number?

[robs.mark]

Your going to want an overflow box to properly skim the surface of the water otherwise you going to get a lot of surface scum. I have a powerhead aiming at the surface of the water also to assist with this.. It also helps keep you pH up.

You seem to have got it together pretty well, good to see your not taking shortcuts like many sw virgins do! will cost you more in the long run!

My advice to you would be to buy good quality fresh live rock, a good skimmer (check out the bubble magus range, i run a NAC6A there cheap and very effective) plenty of flow also, The k4 and return pumps imo wont be enough, add another k4 or a tunze 6045.

Good luck and were always here to help!

[robs.mark]

one more thing, make sure you decide what skimmer you want before you fit the bubble traps in your sump as different skimmer require different water levels...

[Jstdv8]

+1 on the alst post. also you might consider adding a bubble trap on both sections in your sump instead of just on the return. easy to make and no downsides to it

[Ethan_W]

so I've been bored today so I've done some research and planning and thought I would run it by everybody...I am thinking about 30 gallon tank, maybe a little bigger...and I think I have everything planned as far as the sump goes (please let me know if you see something wrong with my plans...

http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u139/daneisthegreatest/sump.jpg

so does the water from the DT gravity feed the sump, should I do an overflow box on the tank or just drill and put a bulkhead, how far down should i drill the tank for the sending and return line...am I just going to need to drill 2 holes or will I need more for any reason? I am hoping to run 1000gph, is that going to be too much for my 72 gallon or is that a good round number?

imo i would put the skimmer in the first compartment, then the bubble trap with the refugium being in the middle and finally the return in the last compartment. if you put the skimmer in the first area i think it helps get rid of the majority of the micro bubbles after going through a first set of baffles so you really dont need 2 bubble traps. and never put your refugium where the return is, you can get sand in your pump which can cause malfunctions further down the road

[Ethan_W]

I think once I get the 80 lbs of sand in my tank I should have about 4" of sand so it sounds like I should be good there. I want to eventually put about 100 lbs of live rock in there but it will take time to get there.

I am not going to overload this tank with livestock. I've always wanted a lion fish, clown fish and yellow tang...seahorses and star fish...dont know how well that combo goes together though...always wanted a shark and living on the beach they are easy to come by but I know the introduction of a wild animal to a tank can bring all sorts of problems so I might not do the shark thing.

so does anyone else have a problem with the T5 HO lights making the water super algaefied (new word?)

What is the importance of RO-DI water? I've always heard if you don't use RO-DI you will have nothing but problems and its so much harder to take care of, but I know several people that use just regular tap water and they have no problems, are they just the lucky ones or would tap water work?

dont go with a lionfish. they are predatory fish who will most likely eat some if not all of its tank mates. everyone thinks about getting a lionfish when they decide to go salt, but its not worth the risk. theres a lot of controversy on here about putting any tangs in anything less than a 75g tank (many argue they need even bigger). i think you will be ok with a yellow tang, just start him small, dont get any other tangs, and make sure it has plenty of swimming room (dont overcrowd with rock).

stay AWAY from sharks. you will get a lot of flak from people for putting a shark in a tank that small. plus you cant house any other fish really. also sea horses dont typically do well with other fish. they are very non-aggressive eaters and sometimes require particular care with feeding even when alone.

dont get more than 2 clowns, and only if they are the same species. never mix. it is fun to see them pair up. and ALWAYS do research about fish you intend to purchase. search the web, talk to the people at your local fish store(LFS), etc. i learned that the hard way and wasted money :( but good luck

[amr952]

Your sump design looks great to me but I think that I would change one thing. On the line bringing in water from you display tank I would put a ball valve on it and run about 1/4-1/2 of the water into the refugium and the rest into the skimmer section. It seems like a lot of the pros around recommend a slower rate through the refugium to give the Chaeto and DSB time to work. Also like said above definitely get an overflow box.

Here is where I got mine: http://www.glass-holes.com/700-gph-Overflow-complete-kit-gh700kit.htm

On that site there are a few other sizes if you prefer a different one.

[panda bb]

so would the 700gph be good for 72 gallon? and I think I will do that idea amr952 running half into the refugium and bypassing half to the skimmer section.

I just sold everything in my tank to a lady in Louisiana for $200 (fish, rocks, CC, plants, center decoration) so it looks like I will be ordering my skimmer...I guess I will start a build thread in the DIY section.

[Jstdv8]

Lions are not aggressive fish, they are very docile, but they will certainly eat anything they can fit in thier mouth. They make a good tankmate for just about anything that is bigger than them as they only eat meat (not corals) and they are not territorial at all.
Messy poopers though

[cewoodall3]

Start out with a sump - you will be happy you did it. Once you get a bunch of pods growing in your fuge your fish will love you for it.

[Ethan_W]

so would the 700gph be good for 72 gallon? and I think I will do that idea amr952 running half into the refugium and bypassing half to the skimmer section.

I just sold everything in my tank to a lady in Louisiana for $200 (fish, rocks, CC, plants, center decoration) so it looks like I will be ordering my skimmer...I guess I will start a build thread in the DIY section.

700gph total flow rate? not if you want corals. i would throw 2 koralia 4's in there, that should add some nice circulation. i thought my fish might be stressed out by a lot of flow in the tank, but turned out they love it, and so do the corals.

[panda bb]

I found a guy selling a brand new sump on craigslist for a decent price, it appears to be a Berlin, not sure what model number or anything, he said its like 40-45 gallons does anyone have any input about me using this? pros/cons

https://mail.google.com/mail/?attid=0.1&disp=emb&view=att&th=1294ed623a0c3fe3

[panda bb]

dunno why the pic didnt load, but here is the sump i found for the cheap...what are the pros/cons of running this, would i be able to have a refugium in this sump

http://www.sealifesystems.com/images/BRS200-%20copy1.JPG

[guitar510]

I'm no expert so take my answers with a grain of salt...but I agree with ethan...protein skimmer first, refugium second. This way, pods (food for some fish) have the best chance of getting from the fuge to back to the DT without having to pass through the skimmer section first.

So...for the sump above, the left section would need to house the return line and the skimmer, the middle would need to house the refugium and the right the return pump. It's hard to tell but with those dimensions you may struggle to find a skimmer that fits...especially if you keep the filter sock. I can't really tell what's going on in the left chamber though...so it may work.

[guitar510]

melev is the king of sumps so spend some time here...

http://www.melevsreef.com/allmysumps.html

[Palting]

That sump is designed for the Berlin system: ie, Live rock plus skimmer. The central compartment is designed to hold a big skimmer. You can use the central compartment as a refugium instead, and use a HOB skimmer on the DT.

[lisafoster]

I have run without a sump for 19 months I have no room in my stand. I have a good skimmer do 20% water changes weekly.I have probably at least 175 pounds live rock. And I usually never disclose this I top off with tap water every week. I do not have one spec of algae anywhere I never have. I think where I live my tap water seems to work. So this would nnot work for everyone although I have talked to reefers who use tap but would never admit it ;)Really deep sand beds are not necessaary some people saty they are old school some people swear by them. I am 4 inches in some areas 2 in others. Buy two of the koralia evolutions 1400.Buy dry rock at marco rocks seed it with a piece of live rock.Check out the octopus skimmers they are great

[RalphEWJ]

I don't know if anyone has yet mentioned this, but make sure if you're going to drill that your tank isn't tempered glass. Lots of bows are made from tempered.

Ralph

[panda bb]

If I get that sump above (the berlin system one) would it be possible to run a HOB skimmer in the refugium section? would that cause any problems?

and only the bottom panel is tempered on my tank so I should be good.

[Uncle Salty 05]

If I get that sump above (the berlin system one) would it be possible to run a HOB skimmer in the refugium section? would that cause any problems?

and only the bottom panel is tempered on my tank so I should be good.

If you have pods living in your fuge they will probably wind up in your collection cup of your skimmer.

[Palting]

If I get that sump above (the berlin system one) would it be possible to run a HOB skimmer in the refugium section? would that cause any problems?

and only the bottom panel is tempered on my tank so I should be good.

I thought of doing that myself with my set up. But, having the skimmer oump in the same section I believe will draw up not only the pods, but also the sand/substrate and ultimately destroy the skimmer pump as well as negate the advantages of the refugium. I finally just decided to leave the refugium be, and put my skimmer as aHOB on the DT.

If your HOB skimmer can fit in that last section of the sump, it may work. The only problem I see is that the skiimer may return a lot of bubbles to your return pump area.

[RalphEWJ]

If you can make it fit, the first section would be a good place for the skimmer.
It's already likely to be bubbly due to the drains coming in. You may have to modify the cover though.

Ralph