is live rock and base rock the same thing???

[keeganpsp]

so pretty much thats it, im looking online for some cheap live rock and some people are selling it and calling it base rock and saying it will grow into live rock and then some people are saying that its base rock not live rock. could someone please help me out!?!?

[2Addicted]

base rock is live rock that dried out and no longer has any of the life in it.

[ChicagoReefOne]

terminology differs, place to place, person to person. Live rock is any rock that has been submerged for a significant amount of time to grow beneficial bacteria both on it and in it--thus there are different grades of quality related to age of the rock and what it's around, meaning what's grown on it. Classes of rock IME:

dry rock: all rock that is dried out, both previously live rock and never been in water rock.
base rock: not very showy live rock or recently submerged dry rock. Usually doesn't have good coraline growth or good shape. Mostly rubble.

[greech]

terminology differs, place to place, person to person. Live rock is any rock that has been submerged for a significant amount of time to grow beneficial bacteria both on it and in it--thus there are different grades of quality related to age of the rock and what it's around, meaning what's grown on it. Classes of rock IME:

dry rock: all rock that is dried out, both previously live rock and never been in water rock.
base rock: not very showy live rock or recently submerged dry rock. Usually doesn't have good coraline growth or good shape. Mostly rubble.

Agree that terminology differs but ^that has always been my understanding as well. Many people use base rock as foundation rocks for their more attractive live or dry rocks.

[Stuart60611]

terminology differs, place to place, person to person. Live rock is any rock that has been submerged for a significant amount of time to grow beneficial bacteria both on it and in it--thus there are different grades of quality related to age of the rock and what it's around, meaning what's grown on it. Classes of rock IME:

dry rock: all rock that is dried out, both previously live rock and never been in water rock.
base rock: not very showy live rock or recently submerged dry rock. Usually doesn't have good coraline growth or good shape. Mostly rubble.


I have to disagree a bit here. My experience with base rock (both Eco Rocks from BRS and Marco Rocks) is that it is perhaps the most attractive rock I have ever seen available in the hobby, live or base. Both Eco Rocks and Marco Rocks come in very cool and unusual shapes and sizes and consist of some of the most porous rocks available.

The biofiltration capacity of both live rock and base rock are equal. Neither is necessarily any better than the other. What makes a particular rock a better biofilter than another mostly has to do with how porous the rock is or how much surface area the rock has for bacteria to colonize. The more surface area (more porous) the better generally the rock acts as a biofilter.

The main difference between live rock and base rock is not their respective biofiltration capacity, but rather the diversity of life on the rock and therefore in the your system. Live rock has lots of different life, such as sponges, truncates, and many other organisms -- some of them desireable and some of them pests like unwanted worms, algae, and other pests. Base rock in the presence of live rock will become "live" in the sense that the organisms on the live rock will eventually migrate and inhabit the base rock making it "live". However, base rock alone will quickly become inhabited with bacteria without the presense of live rock and therefore become a great biofilter alone. Also, base rock will also get coraline algae growth on its own without live rock as long as you keep your calcium up and other parameters in line.

Base rock is a way better value generally than live rock. It starts out generally costing about 1/2 as much as live rock. Plus, it is sold dry so you get about 40% more rock per dollar because you are not paying for water weight. Likewise, if you are shiping, base rock is much cheaper to ship because you are not shiping water weight. Many people, including me, prefer base rock because it is often much more attractive, and you avoid introducing unwanted pests into the system.

[NoBigDeal]

Base rock can turn into live rock with time. Usually for this to happen, you have to mix the base rock with live rock so it can be seeded. Base rock will never be as pretty as live rock well...because its base rock. It's at the very bottom receiving little or no light thus little Coraline algae growth.

[Floowid]

Dry rock will become live rock after some time exposed to a saltwater environment. When a tank cycles is builds up the beneficial bacterial colonies that make your rock "live". Some people also refer to live rock as rock that has microfauna (pods). You will not get this from cycling base rock, and so people often add a few pieces of true direct-from-the-ocean live rock to seed this life.

[Stuart60611]

Base rock can turn into live rock with time. Usually for this to happen, you have to mix the base rock with live rock so it can be seeded. Base rock will never be as pretty as live rock well...because its base rock. It's at the very bottom receiving little or no light thus little Coraline algae growth.


Sure it will. If you place base rock so that it gets enough light, it will get just as much coraline algae growth as live rock. In fact, within several months, you will not even be able to tell based on color which rock is base and which is live.

[Stuart60611]

Dry rock will become live rock after some time exposed to a saltwater environment. When a tank cycles is builds up the beneficial bacterial colonies that make your rock "live". Some people also refer to live rock as rock that has microfauna (pods). You will not get this from cycling base rock, and so people often add a few pieces of true direct-from-the-ocean live rock to seed this life.


You can get pods and other fauna into the system in a variety of ways and do not need live rock to do so. A scoop of sand from an established system or adding some chaeto or other macro algae to the system are some of many ways to do so. Once introduced, this fauna will multiply and spread to the base rock and inhabit the base rock in the same way it does so on live rock.

[NoBigDeal]

Sure it will. If you place base rock so that it gets enough light, it will get just as much coraline algae growth as live rock. In fact, within several months, you will not even be able to tell based on color which rock is base and which is live.

And in that case, the base rock will become live rock won't it?

[Stuart60611]

And in that case, the base rock will become live rock won't it?


It may be merely an issue of terminology, but live rock is populated with lots of different organisms, including, without limitation, coraline algae. Base rock is populated with very few organisms, other than bacteria and some algae, whether coraline or otherwise. The distinction I guess is how "live" the rock is. As time progresses, whatever life is in the system that can populate rock will populate the base rock. This life can be introduced in a variety of ways whether through the use of some live rock or other means.

[keeganpsp]

so pretty much i can buy a ton of base rock and introduce say some brine shrimp of something like that even possibly a few pound of live rock and over time the base rock will turn into the live rock?

[Stuart60611]

so pretty much i can buy a ton of base rock and introduce say some brine shrimp of something like that even possibly a few pound of live rock and over time the base rock will turn into the live rock?


Yes, except for the brine shrimp. The introduction of brine shrimp will do nothing to change your rock. Yes, you can introduce 99% base rock and 1% live rock, and the base rock will eventually become live. Many people value biodiversity in their systems. To accomplish the greatest biodiversity, you can introduce small amounts of different live rock from different systems which will promote a wider variety of life in your system because each live rock will be populated with some different organisms. Likewise, many reefers like to take scoups of sand from different tanks to accomplish the same. However, when attempting to achieve biodiversity in this fashion, be careful for what you wish for. Live rock or sand may also contain a variety of bad organisms that you do not want in your system, such as hard to erradicate algae, other pests, and even parasites that can kill your fish or corals.

[fraggleRocks]

so pretty much i can buy a ton of base rock and introduce say some brine shrimp of something like that even possibly a few pound of live rock and over time the base rock will turn into the live rock?

If you add a few pieces of live rock thats covered in coraline and has a nice diversity of life in it/on it then yes, it will spead over time.


IMO its better to start with some super nice pieces of LR, about half of what you want total, then let it seed the rest. Be it base rock, dry rock, whatever for the other half. You get a better chance of getting a diverse amount of creatures.

I have a 90 that I started by adding all base rock, and only 4 nice sized pieces of premium live rock. its been over 1 year, and yes I have some nice coraline everywhere, and I thought I had very nice biodiversity. I have hundreds and hundreds of pods at night.

BUT

I just bought a second tank, already established,with a bare bottom, and a very nice sump with an established refugium with incredible biodiversity and macro algae.

the biodiverity on the rocks in that fuge is astonishing compared to the critters ive seen in the 90. It has bristleworms, 3 kinds of stars, a bunch of different snails, sponges, some kinds of worms, a few kinds of macro algae, and a mature DBS.

I want a fuge in my 90 now :D

Yes it will be cheaper to do just base rock and a few pieces of LR, but the difference over time is definetly there.

just my 2 cents.

[wilsonreefs]

Yes, except for the brine shrimp. The introduction of brine shrimp will do nothing to change your rock. Yes, you can introduce 99% base rock and 1% live rock, and the base rock will eventually become live. Many people value biodiversity in their systems. To accomplish the greatest biodiversity, you can introduce small amounts of different live rock from different systems which will promote a wider variety of life in your system because each live rock will be populated with some different organisms. Likewise, many reefers like to take scoups of sand from different tanks to accomplish the same. However, when attempting to achieve biodiversity in this fashion, be careful for what you wish for. Live rock or sand may also contain a variety of bad organisms that you do not want in your system, such as hard to erradicate algae, other pests, and even parasites that can kill your fish or corals.

I agree with Stuart. I did the very same thing as described above. A few scoops of sand from friends tanks YOU TRUST.... You have to be very careful of what you get . Just look at the tanks your getting your sand from, if a tank has hair algae, bubble algae, or mojano, or aiptasia, you will definately not want to share in that tanks problems.
On another note the post about the base rock being more porous having more surface area for beneficial bacteria is true, but there is a down side to all that porosity. In the event you have an outbreak of the above mentioned pests, they are almost impossible to get rid of in the more porous rocks without taking out and either letting them dry out or giving them a quick dip in acid.
Just another something to think about.
I do like the more porous rock though.
Carl

[Stuart60611]

If you add a few pieces of live rock thats covered in coraline and has a nice diversity of life in it/on it then yes, it will spead over time.


IMO its better to start with some super nice pieces of LR, about half of what you want total, then let it seed the rest. Be it base rock, dry rock, whatever for the other half. You get a better chance of getting a diverse amount of creatures.

I have a 90 that I started by adding all base rock, and only 4 nice sized pieces of premium live rock. its been over 1 year, and yes I have some nice coraline everywhere, and I thought I had very nice biodiversity. I have hundreds and hundreds of pods at night.

BUT

I just bought a second tank, already established,with a bare bottom, and a very nice sump with an established refugium with incredible biodiversity and macro algae.

the biodiverity on the rocks in that fuge is astonishing compared to the critters ive seen in the 90. It has bristleworms, 3 kinds of stars, a bunch of different snails, sponges, some kinds of worms, a few kinds of macro algae, and a mature DBS.

I want a fuge in my 90 now :D

Yes it will be cheaper to do just base rock and a few pieces of LR, but the difference over time is definetly there.

just my 2 cents.

I would point out that the amount of a particular species of fauna and other small life you see in your second tank probably has little to do with the fact that you started out with much more live rock in your second tank than your 90. Rather, as you seem to also understand, it has much more to do with the fact that the second tank has a fudge. The fudge operates as a safe haven for the fauna to feed and breed without predation from fish or other animals in the display. Therefore, this reservior of protected fauna in your second system is constantly feeding your second system's display new fauna, where your 90 does not have this resource. Even if you start out with a small number of particular fauna organisms, such as pods, worms, etc., they will multiply to as many in number as the system can support. Therefore, the fact that your 90 started with less number of a particular fauna organism, like a pod, (because it started out with less live rock housing pods) will not mean that it will not have as many pods as an identical system which started out with more pods (from more live rock). Both systems will ultimately maintain the same number of pods which will be determined based on resources available for the pods and not by how many pods the particular system started with.

[NoBigDeal]

I would point out that the amount of a particular species of fauna and other small life you see in your second tank probably has little to do with the fact that you started out with much more live rock in your second tank than your 90. Rather, as you seem to also understand, it has much more to do with the fact that the second tank has a fudge. The fudge operates as a safe haven for the fauna to feed and breed without predation from fish or other animals in the display. Therefore, this reservior of protected fauna in your second system is constantly feeding your second system's display new fauna, where your 90 does not have this resource. Even if you start out with a small number of particular fauna organisms, such as pods, worms, etc., they will multiply to as many in number as the system can support. Therefore, the fact that your 90 started with less number of a particular fauna organism, like a pod, (because it started out with less live rock housing pods) will not mean that it will not have as many pods as an identical system which started out with more pods (from more live rock). Both systems will ultimately maintain the same number of pods which will be determined based on resources available for the pods and not by how many pods the particular system started with.


I think what Fragglerocks was saying was that it's cheaper to start with more base rock than live rock and it takes much more effort to get the biodiversity going. And on the contrary, it's much easier and takes less effort to start out with an abundance of live rock to get the desired biodiversity.

[fraggleRocks]

I think what Fragglerocks was saying was that it's cheaper to start with more base rock than live rock and it takes much more effort to get the biodiversity going. And on the contrary, it's much easier and takes less effort to start out with an abundance of live rock to get the desired biodiversity.

yes. thanks.

Also about my pods, yeah I realize in the 90 that thier population would eventually grow over time. They lived in my sump primarily until I removed the sock filter, then they started really populating the DT. I dont have any stars or bristleworms, or even macro algae anywhere in the 90. There was never any in/on the few peices of live rock I introduced to the tank to begin with, so there are none there now to even populate over time. Once I dyi a 55 sump/fuge I plan on adding the DBS and donating a few nice pieces of LR from the new tank into the fuge of the 90. I realize it takes time, but if the organisim was never there to begin with, then I can wait all I want, you cant populate starting with zero :D

It would have been a more productive use of the waiting game if I would have just added many different pieces of LR from the begining, It would have been much more established by this point in time, had I done it then, than it is now.

[khaosinc]

I used all base rock in my tank, and new sand. A bit of sand from my old tank and a few pieces of LR, mostly ones with my surviving corals on them The rest went in the sump. it was a matter of months before everything was purple, and you couldn't tell the new from old. New frags and corals bring in biodiversity (not always good) and dispite all the abuse that tank has had, the system seems to be thriving.

this
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y228/Khaosinc/new%20tank/030-3.jpg
was this 13 months ago
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y228/Khaosinc/new%20tank/20090529_2310.jpg