DIY fuge for 10 gallon tank

[eamike261]

This might belong more in the Sump forum but I'd like input from other nano-tank owners.

My friend and I just recently got our first salt water tank set up so we don't know a ton about sumps/fuges but we feel like it would benefit our tank a lot. We'd like to keep at cheap as possible, not looking to make a crazy awesome sump system. We have been reading up a lot about modding our AC50 into a fuge, but I feel like we'd be better off leaving that as a filter and adding a 2.5 or 5.5 gallon fuge. It's going to be in our dorm room so we're a bit limited on space and it'd be best if it's not too ugly since it will be right next to our tank.

we can probably get the plexie glass, silicone caulk, and pvc pipe (which will be our return pipe because we have a small pump that will carry water to it) for a total of around 20$
we already have egg crate
2.5 gallon tank at petsmart is ~14$
5.5 gallon tank is around 12$ i think

Is it going to make a big difference in the biological happiness of our tank? If so, is the 5.5 going to be much better than the 2.5? We don't really want to pay 10-15$ just for the tank, is there a better alternative?

What should go in a limited fuge? Live sand, live rock, chaeto? Those seem to be the most common things, what else would be really helpful? Copepods?

[teddyzaper]

ill let someone else answer this i gotta go do some stuff but if its not answered when i get back ill post it up

[eamike261]

Sounds good to me, you can still answer anyway if you'd like. I like lots of input on things to help make the best decisions :lol2:

[bassplaya12]

bump

[KafudaFish]

A 10 would be cheaper and bigger is better.

How are you going to plumb it?

Is your display tank drilled? If not how are you going to drain down to the sump?

I have a suggestion or two on that since you are wanting cheap.

[bassplaya12]

not sure that's why we asked, no it is not drilled, not at all sure about how to drain...very open to suggestions

[KafudaFish]

This is odd having two posters with the same question.

Are you guys twins?

Well the easiest thing to do would be run the AC as you were and you could put a small pump in it to pump the water UP to your sump and allow that to drain back into the AC.

It would be a reverse display if that makes sense and your water level would be lower on the display instead of the sump so if you had an auto top off it would have to go there.

Anything 10 gallons and under has very thin glass and it is easy to crack when drilling so look at Wally World, Target, The Container Store, where ever and look for a plastic rigid container. It should cost you less than $10 and you put a bulkhead in it for it to drain instead.

Another option would be to do a side by side display with macro algae too and that could be on a reverse light schedule. It would be cheap and something to look at while drinking beer at 4 am. Depending on space you could do the 10s side by side or just front to back.

You could go online and buy a diamond hole saw for less than $10, put a bulkhead in each and connect with rigid PVC and a union so you can disconnect and move it.

Another option would be buy a larger tank and divide it into a display and sump. Basically an all in one deal.

Just different ideas on how to tackle the same issue.

[bassplaya12]

It's a shared tank. We're the two guys setting it up. I think the simplest idea would be to pump water out of our tank with a small pump we have on hand, into a plastic container which sits slightly higher than our tank. We then divide that in two ways and put macro and LR in one side and maybe carbon on the other and then just have it flow back into the tank by good old mr gravity. I think that was you're wally world idea..

This is odd having two posters with the same question.

Are you guys twins?

Well the easiest thing to do would be run the AC as you were and you could put a small pump in it to pump the water UP to your sump and allow that to drain back into the AC.

It would be a reverse display if that makes sense and your water level would be lower on the display instead of the sump so if you had an auto top off it would have to go there.

Anything 10 gallons and under has very thin glass and it is easy to crack when drilling so look at Wally World, Target, The Container Store, where ever and look for a plastic rigid container. It should cost you less than $10 and you put a bulkhead in it for it to drain instead.

Another option would be to do a side by side display with macro algae too and that could be on a reverse light schedule. It would be cheap and something to look at while drinking beer at 4 am. Depending on space you could do the 10s side by side or just front to back.

You could go online and buy a diamond hole saw for less than $10, put a bulkhead in each and connect with rigid PVC and a union so you can disconnect and move it.

Another option would be buy a larger tank and divide it into a display and sump. Basically an all in one deal.

Just different ideas on how to tackle the same issue.

[eamike261]

Yep we're building it together, but anyway we have an 80gph PH/pump that will carry water to it so the plan was to raise it up and let gravity return it. Why do we need to drill? if we split it off with plexie glass and silicone caulk couldnt we just use a pvc pipe on the opposite side from where the water enters?

Why do you suggest running it to/from the AC? does that make a difference?

[Jarred1]

the pump might not have enough power to pump water up more than 12". test how high the pump can pump water

[bassplaya12]

we will have to do that

[eamike261]

Haha that was the first thing I did, it seemed to work, its a slow rate though. But from what I understand, the slower the better for a fuge? As long as what is constantly being renewed through it.

[KafudaFish]

The suggestion for putting it in the AC was simply keeping it out of the tank and having one less piece of equipment in your display.
It could go in the tank too just it is up to you 2.

The same goes for the return: either in the display or back to the AC.
There are advantages to both such as one additional flow source but if you are having bubble issues (some don't like bubbles in their tanks) then by putting it in the filter it would allow for the bubbles to break before the water enters the tank if that makes sense.

Simple is always better.

Are you thinking of just having an overflow pipe like in an overflow box from the up sump drain down to your display?
If so I would test it several times by having the system running and then uplugging like you lost power and turning it back on to make sure the siphon starts again.
If it doesn't then drilling may have to occur.

There are the normal bulkheads that you see on everyone's tanks and there are others that look like a giant O ring and sit into the hole. I cannot think of the correct name but I will look for them if you need them. They can be used on a curved surface like a bucket too. They cost maybe $2.

Regardless of which way you go you have to remember to allow enough space in the display tank to collect all the drain water when your power goes off.

That is not too hard to get a ball park number with simple math and then play with it.

As far as flow rates some people go fast some slow of course it is up to you. Most people seem to have flow 1 - 3 x the amount so if your PH is pushing 30 gallons per hour up it probably is good.

To keep things even more simple you don't have to go in and plexiglass baffles etc.

Any bubbles being brought up will burst before it gets to the out pipe. Also watch how far in your pump tube sits in your sump. If it is several inches below and the power goes out that much water will drain back into your dispaly and could flood.

Other things: If you want/need some mechanical filtration you can take the foam insert that came with your ac and cut it in half or thirds like sliced bread so it is thin and you can stick it in the ac and simply remove it when you feed, replace with a clean one, wash the old one and let dry for the next time you feed.

You also have mesh bags of carbon and the little ceramic rods that can be used. You can make a slit and pour out the contents saving the bags. Then if you need to add carbon or any other chemical filtration you already have the bags. It will save you $5. You can go to the hardware store and buy plastic spring clips and clip on the side of your sump or the bags can go into your ac too but they will need to be rinsed because they will act as a mechanical filter.

Again there are many ways to do things in this hobby. How well things work is a different story though.

Hope I helped some and I hope that someone else can add to it and maybe their way would be better than mine.

[eamike261]

I might be misunderstanding how the return pipe can work. This picture should help you explain it to me.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=119860&stc=1&d=1279133638

So since the water level is higher where the PVC pipe begins, won't it automatically drain over to the display without any external force?

[nano_reefer2010]

Not sure if your open to the idea, but i'm also a college student and i just built a false wall in my tank. Tank is going to be very compact, and i have a rimless, so i wanted it to look clean. I was really generous with the fuge area, and even included plenty of room for a skimmer. Check it out http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1867417

Not sure if i missed it, but what size tank do you have?

[bassplaya12]

Our tank is already up and running so putting a false wall in would be hard at this point im thinking hah

[eamike261]

its a 10 gallon tank but yeah if it wasn't already set up that'd be a nice option

[KafudaFish]

I am looking for something that may explain things to you.

One issue though if it is a straight pipe is noise like a bathtub draining. This is why people will T the return pipe in order to control the air.

Also if the return pipe is submerged on both ends it may not drain correctly.

[bassplaya12]

would the general concept work though? we can figure something out to fix the straight pipe, like putting a tip on it that's flatter and wider so it disperses it more instead of just shooting it back in. or put a t on it with smaller holes that all drain the water

[eamike261]

I am looking for something that may explain things to you.

One issue though if it is a straight pipe is noise like a bathtub draining. This is why people will T the return pipe in order to control the air.

Also if the return pipe is submerged on both ends it may not drain correctly.

Yes please do see if you can find something. What if instead of using a PVC pipe we just used some wide tubing? Would that still be noisy?

What do you mean it may not drain correctly? As in it won't flow?

From what I understand when the water level rises to the begining of the PVC pipe it will start flowing into it and then when it gets a little higher doesn't gravity force it up over the rim of the fuge and back down into the display?

[bassplaya12]

or will it overflow everywhere?

[KafudaFish]

Ok found what I was looking for:

http://www.pnwmas.org/forums/showthread.php?t=570

What I meant about not flowing correctly is with no vent the water will not drain. Think about when you put a finger over a straw and lift out. Until air is introduced into it no draining.

I had a little DIY kalk holder with a piece of pipe coming out the side. When I first installed it I had the overflow pipe sticking below my sump level. I filled it up it would not drain. But if I lifted it out of the water it would each time so the solution was to have it above the water line.

Also the pipe was sitting horizontal and the water level would have to be above the pipe and then it would drain like a surge device if that makes sense.

Look over impur's build and it should do exactly what you are wanting to do WITHOUT having to drill.

On your drawing you can eliminate some of your baffles and better utilize the space. The only one doing any work is the fourth one that has the water going under and the one before the pipe that controls the water level.

You could remove 1,2 and 5 and get the same effect

[bassplaya12]

that gonna work the same though? our fuge/sump won't be below the display

[eamike261]

Also the pipe was sitting horizontal and the water level would have to be above the pipe and then it would drain like a surge device if that makes sense.


I don't understand but that sounds important, can you reexplain?


On your drawing you can eliminate some of your baffles and better utilize the space. The only one doing any work is the fourth one that has the water going under and the one before the pipe that controls the water level.

You could remove 1,2 and 5 and get the same effect

Yeah thats what i thought but when I look at other designs people always use those extra baffles, what is their puprose?

Also, do we want to replace a baffle with eggcreate, i've seen that too, I'm not sure what it's purpose is though.

[KafudaFish]

There had to be enough pressue on the pipe before it would flush and drain. It was a small diameter pipe though and maybe easier as the pipe diameter increases.

Baffles do a few things:

make compartments in the sump
set the water level
act as a bubble trap thus the over under over set of 3.

Your bottom baffles set the water level and the upper ones act as a bubble trap because the water is having to go under the baffle but the bubble gets to the second one, there is a slight decrease in water velocity and eventually the bubble will rise and pop at the surface between the two baffles. As the water drains from your sump to your display you may have bubbles again just like if the AC is running and the water is below the lip that sits in the tank.

In a traditional set up we want a constant water level for the skimmer and/or auto top off. If the water level changes the skimmer's performance is changed. Some skimmers do better than others in this regard.

But if you look at the last one water is spilling over it and you can have bubbles too.

Again take a look at impur's thread because he did pretty much what I think you are wanting to do.

[glazer]

Just a thought....

It doesn't get any more simple than this. Plastic fish tank (Kritter Keeper from Petco), a couple of bulkheads and a powerhead. Powerhead pumped it up and it drained right back into my HOB filter. Just sit the thing on a shelf or a level higher than the display tank and that's all there is to it. No baffles, no engineering.. takes like 20 minutes to set it up.

http://i904.photobucket.com/albums/ac249/bonsaireefs/overhead%20refugium/SanderP.jpg
http://i904.photobucket.com/albums/ac249/bonsaireefs/overhead%20refugium/overheadfuge.jpg

Few more pics here... http://s904.photobucket.com/albums/ac249/bonsaireefs/overhead%20refugium/
Sorry they are so small.. my originals got resized by accident..DOH


Steve

[thestratomaster]

That's actually a decent idea haha. How much is that critter keeper thing?

[eamike261]

So we really don't need any baffles? or anything?

We're planning to grow copepods in it though, if we just stick a our drain pipe wont it suck them in?

I still don't understand why you want chambers...why doesn't everyone just do it like Glazer?

[eamike261]

And before we go wasting money on pvc pipe, does the horizontal pipe on the U shaped piece in the water need to be above or below the horizontal part of the U shaped pipe on the outside of the tank? So the lowest point of the part in the water, and the lowest point in the part out of the water...does their height matter in order to make the siphon work?

[glazer]

thestratomaster... The critter keepers come in different sizes, not sure exactly on the cost. Small one around 8 and big one around 15? Doesn't have to be one of those though, you could use anything. I just wanted something plastic so I could drill it in a matter of minutes. A friend knew I wanted to set up a 'fuge so brought some sand, macros and rubble by at work. I had no place to put any of it so on the way home I picked up the CK and had the whole thing set up in like 15-20 minutes.


alright... now, you lost me on the U-shaped pipe thing? What are you trying to do? Are you going to set tanks side by side? Must have been something in a post I breezed through.

Steve

[eamike261]

Haha yes its from the previous post

http://www.pnwmas.org/forums/showthread.php?t=570

we're doing an above fuge like yours but we need a return pipe, and I was hoping to building something like this guy did, I'm just not sure what dimensions have to be correct in order for the to work properly. Yours is really nice cuz there just pores through the tubes, how did you drill that?

[glazer]

Oh geez, I'm going to stay out of that one.... I've seen multiple versions of the DIY pvc overflows and the tweaking seems to go on forever.
I've seen 4 packs of bulkheads online, like ebay or amazon for around six bucks. That and a 5 dollar hole saw, some 10 dollar plastic box from the container store or whatever and some plastic hose from the Depot and you are done.

Please, DO NOT take any offense... I'm not sure of how to say it but that PVC overflow you linked to... I could make that in five minutes. I have a cutter, cement and know what all the parts are and have been dealing with plumbing not just on tanks but in homes and businesses for over 30 years and I still wouldn't mess with it. You guys, from what I can tell are um, pretty new to plumbing from the sound of it? I understand the need for cheap, believe me... most of my life has revolved on doing things in the most cost effecient manner.... I've also learned that aggravation needs to be figured into the bottom line.

Steve

[KafudaFish]

I think Glazer's picutres are worth a thousand words to be honest and better describes what you are wanting to do than I have for the last several posts.

This is something that is simple and we are making it difficult including myself.
Simple solutions work better to be honest.

As far as parts go you are looking at around $20 in cost and a few beers to make it.

Can you do this without drilling? Yes.

Would there be less headache and less chance of something going wrong if you drilled? Yes.

It would cost about the same either way.

If you don't have a fish store around look at savko's site under bulkheads and they have everything you need for them. You can then run to HD or Lowes and buy some flexible tubing and a few O clamps to attach everything and let it drain back to the ac.

I know that cheap is better and I agree but in this hobby saving a few dollars is not always worth the headaches.

[bassplaya12]

I think glazer's way may be the easiest, is that the concensus here?

[eamike261]

I vote yes, its easiest. Can that fuge be used for anything another fuge could be used for? Specifically breeding pods?

[glazer]

Well heck... since it's been put to a vote, then um yeah, I'll say my way is the easiest!...lol

Not sure of your concerns or what you're getting at really... as far as function of a refugium it works the same way as any other configuration you would set up. Dunno, if you're worried you might not get much of a pod farm at higher elevations I can assure you that thing was crawling with "bugs". So much so that my wife liked to call it creepy.

Steve

[bassplaya12]

Sounds good. Do you think two bulkheads are necessary? Also in terms of lighting, it doesn't have to be anything special right?

[bassplaya12]

^^^

[glazer]

Sounds good. Do you think two bulkheads are necessary? Also in terms of lighting, it doesn't have to be anything special right?

You don't NEED two bulkheads... you can configure your inlet line about any way you want really. Clip the hose to the side of the tank, make "candy cane" configuration out of pvc to hook over the side... whatever. Just don't put you return line down into the tank... then it would be just like siphoning out a bucket when or if you lose power or the pump fails. I had both by bulkheads level with each other. Turn the power or the pump off and the only water than ran back into the tank was what was in the hose leading up to it.

Lighting... just need something with a daylight spectrum to it. I had the one in the picture lit with just a desk lamp and a 13 watt 6500K PC bulb from home depot. Grew macros like crazy.

Steve

[bassplaya12]

Yeah overflow was a concern of mine.

[Bonta]

Sorry for the off topic question but Glazer what skimmer is that in the plastic fish tank ?
Just a thought....

It doesn't get any more simple than this. Plastic fish tank (Kritter Keeper from Petco), a couple of bulkheads and a powerhead. Powerhead pumped it up and it drained right back into my HOB filter. Just sit the thing on a shelf or a level higher than the display tank and that's all there is to it. No baffles, no engineering.. takes like 20 minutes to set it up.

http://i904.photobucket.com/albums/ac249/bonsaireefs/overhead%20refugium/SanderP.jpg
http://i904.photobucket.com/albums/ac249/bonsaireefs/overhead%20refugium/overheadfuge.jpg

Few more pics here... http://s904.photobucket.com/albums/ac249/bonsaireefs/overhead%20refugium/
Sorry they are so small.. my originals got resized by accident..DOH


Steve

[glazer]

Sorry for the off topic question but Glazer what skimmer is that in the plastic fish tank ?

It's a Sanders Piccolo, awesome little skimmer. They are made in the UK and bit hard to get your hands on here. They show up on Ebay from time to time or the classifieds on NR, just sold that one there actually.

Steve

[eamike261]

You don't NEED two bulkheads... you can configure your inlet line about any way you want really. Clip the hose to the side of the tank, make "candy cane" configuration out of pvc to hook over the side... whatever. Just don't put you return line down into the tank... then it would be just like siphoning out a bucket when or if you lose power or the pump fails.

If we did that we would not need to drill/cut holes right? Could you make draw a quick illustration in Paint or something? I'm not sure if i completely understand

[glazer]

Sorry for the confusion.. reading what I wrote now I see where I didn't explain myself very well. I would definitely drill for a drain on the 'fuge. The supply line for the fuge from the display tank... you don't need to do a bulkhead for. Thus, not needing two, just one bulkhead... clear as mud right?

The line/hose that is going to be pumping UP to the 'fuge you could just hook the hose over the side of the 'fuge... or make like a lily pipe configuration out of pvc, the candy cane thing I spoke of... it would just "hook" over the edge of the 'fuge. Make sense now?
Just make it so that line from the display is not too far down into the refugium.. it will siphon if your pump is off and you could end up overflowing your display tank.

Steve

[ir_danno22]

have you started your build yet? i built one out of a 5.5 tank from petco for a 10 gallon setup (tank, stand and hood). it cost me quite a bit building it but it works pretty good. will post some pics in a bit.

[eamike261]

Sorry for the confusion.. reading what I wrote now I see where I didn't explain myself very well. I would definitely drill for a drain on the 'fuge. The supply line for the fuge from the display tank... you don't need to do a bulkhead for. Thus, not needing two, just one bulkhead... clear as mud right?

The line/hose that is going to be pumping UP to the 'fuge you could just hook the hose over the side of the 'fuge... or make like a lily pipe configuration out of pvc, the candy cane thing I spoke of... it would just "hook" over the edge of the 'fuge. Make sense now?

Lol yes clear as mud, I was planning on just sticking the end of the tube from the PH into the fuge, then we could just drill one spot for the bulkhead and let water overflow into that, and back down to the display. Simple enough I think. So we wouldn't need the lily pipe or pvc or anything for the part that will bring water to the fuge.


Just make it so that line from the display is not too far down into the refugium.. it will siphon if your pump is off and you could end up overflowing your display tank.

Oh okay right, I'm hoping that won't be an easy, the pump we're using is quite weak so the water level definitely won't even rise above the bulkhead.

have you started your build yet? i built one out of a 5.5 tank from petco for a 10 gallon setup (tank, stand and hood). it cost me quite a bit building it but it works pretty good. will post some pics in a bit.

Nope not yet, trying to figure out the absolute best way to do this before we begin.

[ir_danno22]

here you go. it was a pain to put together but i had to get away from the pvc. was easier to just buy an already made overflow. enjoy. sorry if the pics are huge. df

tank shot.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=2621&pictureid=18305

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=2621&pictureid=18307

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=2621&pictureid=18312

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=2621&pictureid=18311

[ir_danno22]

10 Gallon side. I got sick of the damsel kicking up sand so i swapped the sand for frag squares and tiled the bottom of the tank. it's impractical but looks cool.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=2621&pictureid=18325

CPR overflow in the back drains down to a 3" sewer pipe filled with rocks to act as a bubble trap.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=2621&pictureid=18314

The fuge area is just packed with chaeto so nothing big lives down there. this little setup ran me a pretty penny piecing together but it works well. there is a JBJ ATO connected to another aqualifter for top off water.

next venture is to connect this system to my aquacontroller thats on my other tank but thats another $300+.

[eamike261]

That definitely looks really good but the whole thing would be a bit pricier than the other option haha.

You don't NEED two bulkheads... you can configure your inlet line about any way you want really. Clip the hose to the side of the tank, make "candy cane" configuration out of pvc to hook over the side... whatever. Just don't put you return line down into the tank... then it would be just like siphoning out a bucket when or if you lose power or the pump fails. I had both by bulkheads level with each other. Turn the power or the pump off and the only water than ran back into the tank was what was in the hose leading up to it.

Lighting... just need something with a daylight spectrum to it. I had the one in the picture lit with just a desk lamp and a 13 watt 6500K PC bulb from home depot. Grew macros like crazy.

Steve

Is this all we need for the bulkhead or is something missing?
http://cgi.ebay.com/1-2-Aquarium-Bulkhead-Strainer-Suction-Screen-Threaded-/200392337320?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2ea85067a8

And if so is this that missing part?
http://cgi.ebay.com/1-2-AQUARIUM-STANDARD-SLIP-X-SLIP-BULKHEAD-FITTING-/380246883071?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item58887afaff

If we bought only the first link, how would it connect to the whole? We'd have to silicone in it. I'm confused :hmm5:

[glazer]

Part number one you linked to is nothing more than a strainer that fits into Part number two.

I think I have run out of ways to describe it... so, uh, once more with the picture I guess.

http://i904.photobucket.com/albums/ac249/bonsaireefs/overhead%20refugium/fugoverflow.jpg

Steve

[bassplaya12]

We found a suitable container for our fuge. It's a little 1.5g acrylic aquarium