Just bought a pair of Orange Spotted Filefish on DD. Now what?!? [Archive]

small alien

07/19/2010, 11:20 AM

Hi. I have read about these fish a lot and they've been at the top of my wish list for a while. DD has had pairs eating mysis and brine several times recently but I've missed them. Well, today, I ordered a pair.

I have my 75 in my signature. Do we think they'll do okay in that community of fish bioload not withstanding? If I need to remove someone, who would that be?

I have a 30 gallon cube that is not set up. Would they be better off in there alone? DD says 50 gallons.

I have a 10 gallon established QT. Could I keep them in there for a little while so I can make sure they're eating and get there new home established?

Please don't give me too much trouble for not knowing exactly where these fish will end up. I am confident I can care for them and this was not an impulse buy. But I do have some decisions to make and I'd appreciate input. They'll be here Wednesday!!!

THANKS!

edwing206

07/19/2010, 01:05 PM

I'd put them in a tank by themselves. From the reading I've done they are slow eaters and will be outcompeted for food. Also make sure that you have a strong skimmer, because you will be feeding these guys a lot.

Also pot pics please! :D
-Luis

small alien

07/19/2010, 01:20 PM

namxas

07/19/2010, 01:42 PM

the real key is to make sure you get them eating for you, even tho they're sold as such. to that end, i'd at LEAST start them out in a QT to get them conditioned and fattened-up. THEN, you might give them a shot with low-key tankmates.

that being said, our pair is alone in a species setup just for them. we have given thoughts of trying them with our SH, but Renee worked so hard weaning them, i honestly don't think she wants to risk it.

JM .02...

zachfishman

07/19/2010, 02:09 PM

Although captive fish do not always attain maximum size, orange-spotted filefish still get quite large. If you don't put them in your 75 now, they'll need the space eventually (and them some).

small alien

07/19/2010, 02:54 PM

Thanks Greg. Do you think a 10g QT would be okay for them. Said their sizes were 2 3/4 and 3 inches respectively. How often do you guys feed yours? What size tank are they in?

Thanks, Zach. My Japanese wife would agree, there's no such thing as too much nori! I saw max size 5 inches. Does that sound right? Do we feel that's too big for the 30g cube?

Thanks!

zachfishman

07/19/2010, 06:08 PM

So long as we're talking about this filefish (http://www.fishbase.org/summary/speciessummary.php?id=1082), I've seen them at the full reported 8" max for the species on several occasions diving.

SMOOTHIE

07/19/2010, 11:19 PM

Thanks, Luis. I do feed my main tank a lot because of my dragonets and pipefish. I don't believe they will be out-competed for food. Have you heard it suggested they need more feedings than pipes and dragonets? I feed 2 times per day, 3 on weekends. I turn off the flow for about 1/2 hour so there is a lot of time to eat.

I will post pics!

Google the article Matt Pederson did for Coral Magazine. There is an interesting and proven for him idea on mashing gel based foods onto/into dead sps branches to entice them into feeding prepped foods. As fasr as feedings go---as much as they will take at a time. Salt is cheap for water changes compared to the experience of success with these guys

namxas

07/20/2010, 01:49 AM

a 10 would likely be OK for QT purposes as long as you keep up with WC's.
i don't think this fish will get anywhere near that in captivity...i think 5"-6" is about max. i'm sure it's a nutritional issue, as it is with most fish.

if both fish are eating right away, just fatten them up a bit. i haven't heard of any of the weaned DD fish backsliding.

we feed ours pellets once a day and mixed mysis & BS+ in the evening as well as some shaved salmon flesh every so often (all feedings are small amounts over the course of an hour or so). i should mention that our fish hunt and eat pods thruout the day as well.

HTH

jmaneyapanda

07/20/2010, 07:13 AM

So long as we're talking about this filefish (http://www.fishbase.org/summary/speciessummary.php?id=1082), I've seen them at the full reported 8" max for the species on several occasions diving.

This is why common names are dumb in this trade. He is reffering to Oxymonacanthus longirostris.

kaimarkhirst

07/20/2010, 07:14 AM

Well, congrats on your purchase and welcome to the wonderful world of impossible to keep species!!!!! Heres how ive kept mine for the last 4 months or so... I wont relay the obviousness of how hard they are to keep, just tell you how i keep mine....

1. I feed 2 times daily with a mix of cockles, mysis, krill and brine shrimp with added vitamin b supplements. They are also grazers from coral polyps such as gorgonians, acros, even anemone mucus and foods from their mouth. Picture to back that up..

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=2632&pictureid=18351

2. Dont worry about aggressive tankmates theyll hold their own unless you have a clown trigger, or queen angel, or some other bad tempered fish alike.. Fin nippers be careful with. Any such stress will kill them...

3. Your tank. Too much stocking for feeding purposes as it takes them a while to start feeding and by the time they start eating, the food will mostly be gone.... Dunno what to take out, just something needs to give... I planned my tank down to the last coral and fish, this purchase is not an impulse one, but its a rushed one.

4. Your tank surroundings need to provide a safe refuge at night as the sress of nighttime can kill him unless he has a stable territory to refuge in. I keep 2 sea fans and a small forest of gorgonians and acros where he dives into when the dusk lighting comes on... Make sure that he has or finds a similar refuge for him in your tank....

5. Your tank params have to be bulletproof. Any significant change in the waste either leaking back to your tank from the skimmer, or overstocking will kill him. I keep bluespotted ribbontail rays and i would put this filefish at the top of the difficult species list with them... Make sure your skimmer is on top form, and your tank is clean... If youve got uv, run it unless youve got a good zooplankton ratio in your tank. I dont and run a uv to keep the tank clean with my ozonizer.

Once you get past the 2 month stage, youve pretty much cracked it...

Theres not much else I can say but good luck!!!

zachfishman

07/20/2010, 07:22 AM

This is why common names are dumb in this trade. He is reffering to Oxymonacanthus longirostris.

Aha, I was wondering about that. good luck, I hear that leatherjackets are near-impossible to keep unless you have a massive SPS system to feed them.

namxas

07/20/2010, 09:26 AM

This is why common names are dumb in this trade. He is reffering to Oxymonacanthus longirostris.

+1000

Renee and i live in the world of scorpionfish, and they're NEVER properly ID'd...even the lions, which should be EZ are always wrong.

small alien

07/20/2010, 10:19 AM

Thanks, Greg. Sorry for the use of the misleading common name. As a horticulturist, I should know better.

I will put them in the 10 g QT when they come tomorrow. I've got mysis, cyclops, roe and brine to try. DD said they were eating all 4 of those foods.

Greg, what size tank do you have yours in? Are there coral polyps in there they nibble on?

Thanks for taking the time, Kaimark.

"3. Your tank. Too much stocking for feeding purposes as it takes them a while to start feeding and by the time they start eating, the food will mostly be gone.... Dunno what to take out, just something needs to give... I planned my tank down to the last coral and fish, this purchase is not an impulse one, but its a rushed one."

I guess you're right to a point, it is rushed because they were available. But I'm not totally sure what else I would do to prepare that I'm not doing now. I truly don't think they'll be outcompeted for food but I could be wrong. I have lots of slow eaters in there and make sure even they get their share. Does anyone else have a suggestion for if and what I need to remove from my stock list in my sig? My basic analysis mentally and visually tells me there is room for these fish in there, but I will say just barely.

Are we suggesting these fish need cleaner water than most SW fish? Params are always 0's across. Little in the way of nuisance algae, etc., so I think my water is pretty good. Maybe not "SPS clean" but it's a clean tank.

Thanks so much for the input. I am truly excited about these fish. They are beyond amazing and I am really optimistic and hopeful that I will be able to keep them for many years.

namxas

07/20/2010, 04:36 PM

since the fish have been weaned, there are no corals in the tank, but there is a decent amount of branchy LR so there are lots of hunting/hiding places, altho the female seems to like the Koralia as a night time roost. this is the only tank we have a PH in, BTW, which is there to help keep the food items suspended in the water column.

the tank is a 20 gal acrylic with a HOB filter, the Koralia, and a "slow" airline. lighting is a small commercial LED fixture. there is a bit of HA growing in the tank, which we leave since it harbors the pods the fish snack on thruout the day. we try to run the tank in the 75*F - 77*F range.

small alien

07/20/2010, 06:07 PM

Thanks, Greg. Really appreciate that info. By slow airline, you mean an airpump connected to an airstone for oxygenation?

How often do you do water changes on the 20 and how much water do you change?

Thanks a bunch.

small alien

07/20/2010, 10:55 PM

Okay, so, I'm pretty much driving my wife nuts talking about these fish. :hmm4: I have actually never seen a specimen in person. To me, this is hands down the most fascinating looking small SW fish I have ever seen. It looks like it evolved on Mars. :bigeyes:

Just put some extra decor (plastic plants) in the QT to help make them feel comfortable. Also am going to add a little more LR so there are some swim throughs. And there are a couple pieces of pvc in there. About 1 inch of well established sand bed. And a peppermint shrimp for Aptasia control. Sound cool?

Tomorrow's the day. :celeb1: Wish us luck!

aquaph8

07/20/2010, 11:11 PM

Good luck

namxas

07/21/2010, 01:16 AM

we change out about 5-10 gals a month. we actually had to change more while the fish we weaning and before we got a handle on how much to feed them, as one of the things these fish will do is go off their feed if the water quality drops.

we don't use airstones, but we drop a piece of opne-ended rigid tubing into the tank and dial the bubble back a bit to help with circulation/surface turbulance in the rear corner.

good luck with your fish...they're very cool critters.

here's some eye candy while you wait:

http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll73/hixphotobucket/Our%20Fish/osff700.jpg
http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll73/hixphotobucket/Our%20Fish/orangeclose700.jpg
http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll73/hixphotobucket/Our%20Fish/osffround.jpg

uhuru

07/21/2010, 08:28 AM

Congratulations on the OSFF pair! Mine has been in a 20g QT tank with a group of greedy cardinals for several months, and does ok in terms of food competition. They are slow eaters and a lot of the food falls to the ground (I use NLS pellets softened up in tank water). I like keeping the tank BB because mine will clean up the bottom afterwards. I do a 25% w/c every 2 wks but used to to it once or twice a week when I was getting him to eat pellets. Just really watch out for nutrient levels if you have a sand bed that gets overloaded with decomposing food! I am moving mine to a planted tank soon as I figure all that food that falls to the ground will feed the plants.

small alien

07/21/2010, 09:35 AM

Thanks all! I'll post some pics when they get here. :spin3:

namxas

07/21/2010, 01:18 PM

We can't wait to see them!

BTW, if you run with substrate, get a few Nassarius snails to help clean up any excess food (1 snail/10 gals is a good start, then adjust as needed).

small alien

07/22/2010, 10:01 AM

Both arrived alive along with a lovely little pearly jaw.

Here are the pair in the acclimation bucket.
http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn4/smallalien/inthebucket.jpg

The male is smaller and a bit skinnier. Both have reasonable body weight but they're not fat by any means.

Both have shown interest in food but it's a bit hard to tell if they're eating any for sure. Saw the male take and then spit out a piece of brine shrimp. Have tried mysis, roe, cyclops and brine so far. Will try some more roe shortly.

Here are a couple more shots. I'm not much of a photographer but so it goes.

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn4/smallalien/pair2.jpg

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn4/smallalien/pair1.jpg

namxas

07/22/2010, 01:46 PM

Nice! They have a decent amount of weight on them, which is huge. Keep the updates coming...

small alien

07/22/2010, 11:12 PM

Both fish confirmed eating Nutramar ova prawn roe! I am super stoked!!!

It's been about 24 hours since they went into the tank. The female has been eating but haven't seen the male eat until this evening. Then he really went for it.

I feed some mysis. They were interested but it was PE and pretty big. I think they took some bites but it wasn't obvious and I couldn't watch forever.

Feed some spirulina brine. As far as I could see, they mostly spit it out. But maybe they were eating the good part and spitting out mostly the "shell".

Finally, feed some prawn roe which I figured to be the most likely to be eaten (and why I saved it until last) and they both went for it.

I put some in and then turned off the flow. The were both eating. Then turned the flow back on. They were both taking individual eggs out of the water column with the flow on. They were both eating just like any planktivore. I mean, their feeding abilities seemed more than adequate to take food from the water column on the fly. As anyone who's seen Matt's 'eating flake food' video can attest. Really quite amazing.

And to think that it has something to do with human training. With human/nature interaction in a rather profound way. If you think about a fish labeled an "obligate coralivore" taking plankton from the water column, that is really something.

I'll post some more pictures soon and report if they take more foods.

Yeah!!!!!!!!!!:spin1:

seahorsedreams

07/23/2010, 07:52 AM

Mine hated spirulina brine. They like them with just the added vitamins.

uhuru

07/23/2010, 08:39 AM

Very nice. Those two are in REALLY good condition compared to how I got mine. Mine put on the most weight when I got him on pellets.

seahorsedreams

07/23/2010, 08:51 AM

There were a couple there were on DD yesterday... those looked rather skinny.

namxas

07/23/2010, 09:06 AM

Very nice. Those two are in REALLY good condition compared to how I got mine. Mine put on the most weight when I got him on pellets.

Agreed...it's painful to see them like this, which is how we got ours:

http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll73/hixphotobucket/Our%20Fish/orangespotcheckingitout700.jpg

small alien

07/23/2010, 09:35 AM

Fed roe before I left for work this morning and they really chowed down.

I'll try a few NLS pellets when I get home. Hopefully, they'll go for it!

They are very mellow fish. I did a small 1 gallon water change last night and they didn't even flinch when I dipped a container in the tank. They just kept right on eating through the entire process. woo and hoo. :celeb1:

uhuru

07/23/2010, 11:19 AM

For the NLS pellets, soak it in the same water as the roe for a while, and whatever else they like to eat already. The pellets are good at soaking up other flavors. It also softens them up making them more palatable. I would even let them soak in the fridge overnight to get them eating it.

I'm setting up a refrigerated auto feeder this weekend that will be dosing Ova to the fish on an hourly basis. It is pretty cool that these obligate corallivores can catch food from the water column isn't it?

small alien

07/23/2010, 11:22 AM

Good tip, Uhuru. Thanks. I will try the soaked pellets this afternoon when I get home. They are very agile hunters it appears. I feel like "omnivore" is a reasonable classification for this fish.

small alien

07/23/2010, 11:23 AM

Would love to see a pic of that refrigerated doser when it's up and running.

seahorsedreams

07/23/2010, 04:56 PM

What size tank are we all using for an adult pair? Mine are still in the training tank.... next month it'll be a year O.O

Sheol

07/23/2010, 05:29 PM

Wow, considering their reputation, a lot of people are actually trying these. I have mixed emotions about that, but maybe new info from people trying to keep them will help in the future.

Matthew

seahorsedreams

07/23/2010, 05:42 PM

The influx is more from DD that have already been conditioned (hopefully) and trained to eat frozen. I wouldn't agree with it if they weren't already trained. That's the hardest part in keeping them, IMO.

small alien

07/23/2010, 08:13 PM

both ate small nls pellets soaked in roe juice!!! I think if I soaked it longer, they'd get even more in. I have to say, these fish have that feeling of "I want to live!" I'm sure you all know what I mean. They are simply very vigorous eaters and I am so happy.

Let's hope things keep going in the right direction. :D

CorkPullerPHL

07/24/2010, 07:40 AM

Great news. Good luck!

small alien

07/24/2010, 12:07 PM

Thanks CorkPuller.

Fed the pellets soaked in roe juice again this morning. And I smooshed up the pellets. That really did the trick. Once those small pieces were flying around in there, they really went nuts for them. It just blows my mind. The only other fish I have who will touch pellets are captive bred or damsels. So far, this has been one of the easiest fishes to feed I've ever had which just so flies in the face of standard ideas about this fish as of pretty recently it seems. I feel almost guilty having such an easy go of it having read about the really hard work of others to train this fish. I wonder how much work it was for DD to train them and how they did it.

I am not getting too sure of myself or the fish, just really feeling awesome about the progress so far. I dare say in 3 days they have both added body weight. Not much. But that's my gut impression. Wheeeeeeeeee!!! :dance:

small alien

07/24/2010, 12:09 PM

I'll try to take some more pictures later today. I know everybody loves pictures. I do.

small alien

07/24/2010, 01:52 PM

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn4/smallalien/filefish/IMGP1908_resize.jpg

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn4/smallalien/filefish/IMGP1903_resize.jpg

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn4/smallalien/filefish/IMGP1910_resize.jpg

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn4/smallalien/filefish/IMGP1909_resize.jpg

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn4/smallalien/filefish/IMGP1913_resize.jpg

small alien

07/24/2010, 02:00 PM

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn4/smallalien/filefish/IMGP1905_resize.jpg

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn4/smallalien/filefish/IMGP1906_resize.jpg

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn4/smallalien/filefish/IMGP1904_resize.jpg

small alien

07/24/2010, 02:03 PM

video

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn4/smallalien/filefish/th_IMGP1899.jpg (http://s300.photobucket.com/albums/nn4/smallalien/filefish/?action=view&current=IMGP1899.mp4)

snorvich

07/24/2010, 02:29 PM

Gorgeous! And it looks like you are having great luck with them!

por2stylz

07/25/2010, 12:26 AM

they eat polyps of acropora buy acro frags and mash food like mysis into the holes they will nip and the acros by instinct and get their nutrition from food u stuffed in the skeleton of it

namxas

07/25/2010, 09:56 AM

they eat polyps of acropora buy acro frags and mash food like mysis into the holes they will nip and the acros by instinct and get their nutrition from food u stuffed in the skeleton of it

We're talking about fish that are already weaned here...no need for that. Small alien was fortunate enuff to get a pair that was pre-weaned, altho Renee had to go that route in the weaning process. To be honest, the fish get a much more varied diet now.

Wow, considering their reputation, a lot of people are actually trying these. I have mixed emotions about that, but maybe new info from people trying to keep them will help in the future.

I agree...these fish are kinda like where SH were a few years back...we saw them go from "hard to keep" to "special needs, but doable" fish. Trying and sharing info and techniques is the way we progress in the hobby.

I'll try to take some more pictures later today. I know everybody loves pictures. I do.

You betcha!!!! I'm thrilled that your fish are doing so well for you.

small alien

07/25/2010, 10:59 AM

Fish are still eating really well. I'm focusing on the pellets soaked in roe juice (thanks again, Uhuru. Your tip was key.). I smoosh them a tad but it seems like they actually like a bit bigger bite. Not too big, not too small. And if the food is soft enough, they will take a "bite" of a piece that would be too large to eat whole.

After I fed the softened pellets, I put in a tiny bit of actual roe. They really went crazy. It is just so satisfying to see them eating like they are. I keep saying it over and over again, I know, but these two little fish are just bringing me so much joy already.

I'll try to get a little video of some eating later today.

Thanks for sharing this experience with me. Cheers, the small one

small alien

07/25/2010, 11:01 AM

Greg, have you and Renee considered trying to get a pair from DD and making a trio with your female? I did see one trio on DD a couple weeks back so it seems that can be done.

Sheol

07/25/2010, 05:39 PM

Great pics & beautiful fish! Best of luck with them.

Matthew

seahorsedreams

07/25/2010, 09:51 PM

Greg, have you and Renee considered trying to get a pair from DD and making a trio with your female? I did see one trio on DD a couple weeks back so it seems that can be done.

We actually have a pair.

I wouldn't do the trio myself. I'm happy where I am :-) We really don't know the dynamics of a trio, so I wouldn't want to put any potential stress on my current girl.... I like her too much. I put WAY too many hours into training her to risk her in any way. It's why I'm not as attached to him... he was easier to train once I had already gone through it with her.

small alien

07/26/2010, 08:56 AM

Cool. Have you updated your thread with pics of your new guy?

Idle Moor

07/27/2010, 12:43 PM

I had a pair of these for a short while in my reef about 12 years ago. I wasn't completely ignorant, but honestly didn't know about them and listened to my LFS who said they wouldn't touch my corals. I didn't think anything of it when they ate flakes as soon as I got them home. Then of course they began picking at my LPS and I got upset and took them back to the store. Then I hear all these stories of them being obligate corallivores and think waaaa? I've always wished I'd kept them.

small alien

07/27/2010, 12:52 PM

Interesting. I am debating whether to put them in my 75 gallon mixed reef or into a 33 gallon cube by themselves. Would hate to see them decimate my LPS. But they seem like they'd be pretty easy to remove if they started to nip. I'd much rather have them in my main reef because they would just look so cool with the coral backdrop and the other fish, but I'll do the cube if necessary. Right now they're still in the 10 gallon QT and eating like pigs. Thanks for sharing your story.

small alien

07/27/2010, 10:57 PM

here's a video of them eating pellets soaked in roe juice and squished up a bit. you can see at the end a piece that is whole and it's too big for them.

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/UsplDw57ilo&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/UsplDw57ilo&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

small alien

07/27/2010, 11:19 PM

can anyone recommend a brand of flake food. I think they'd go for it. it would be pretty ironic if the first SW fish I've ever gotten to take flake was a fish often considered "impossible to feed". Ha!

namxas

07/28/2010, 08:33 AM

You'll have to ask Renee about flake, but I'm pretty sure ours don't care for it.

Isn't it amazing to see these fish simply going at the food like that? I still shake my head and smile about it.

seahorsedreams

07/28/2010, 09:07 AM

She wouldn't take the flake the first time round. She now will eat it. Which reminds me... we need more flake food. :-)

small alien

07/28/2010, 09:29 AM

what kind do you use?

Idle Moor

07/28/2010, 10:47 AM

She wouldn't take the flake the first time round. She now will eat it. Which reminds me... we need more flake food. :-)

Multiple accounts of an "obligate corallivore" eating flakes of all things. Something tells me someone didn't do their homework before slapping an incorrect label on something.

small alien

07/28/2010, 11:07 AM

I've wondered if this species didn't evolve as more of an omnivore and them moved toward polyp eating as a survival technique of some kind. They just seem so well built for taking food from the water column. I guess it's just one more reminder of the immense mystery that is the ocean. Cool! :clown:

namxas

07/28/2010, 01:57 PM

To be honest, I think one of the biggest problems is getting the fish before they're close to being starved to death. Think of how long it takes before they actually end up in somebody's home aquarium, and you know full well the collectors don't try to feed them, nor do the wholesalers, then the LFS don't work with them, so the fish are severely emaciated before we even get a chance to try.

Granted, this fish isn't for everyone, but i bet we'd see/hear of a lot more of them making the transition to prepared foods if folks could simply get them before they're on death's doorstep.

JMHO...

small alien

07/28/2010, 03:25 PM

Thanks for your thoughts, Greg, and I bet you are right.

I want to add a little tidbit to this feeding discussion in the form of a scientific theory as put forth by British biologist Rupert Sheldrake. His theory is called "Morphic Resonance" and it has many ramifications.

The part of it that is relevant here has to do with animal behavior. The idea is that there are hierarchical fields of information associated with species and certain behaviors. And the more times a given species repeats a behavior, the stronger the field gets and the more likely it is to repeat the behavior or for another member of the species to repeat it. This would mean that the more orange spots we get eating prepared foods, the more likely it becomes that more will do so.

If you're interested in his theory, I strongly recommend his books but you can get a taste of it at his website.

http://www.sheldrake.org/homepage.html

Best, small the alien

Idle Moor

07/28/2010, 04:12 PM

uhuru

07/28/2010, 05:17 PM

small alien - awesome video!

IMO - they look very much like specialized feeders. Everything about their form to me screams "specialized feeder." Form follows function. I don't think people were wrong about them. We are just lucky that they are able to adapt to eating food from the water column in our tanks.

As far as flake food, I use formula 2.

small alien

07/29/2010, 09:50 AM

seahorsedreams

07/29/2010, 10:44 AM

I use Ocean Nutrition Prime Reef Flake Food.

Idle Moor

07/29/2010, 11:16 AM

Thanks, Uhuru. I still feel a debt of gratitude to you for the soaking the pellets idea. That was huge.

Idle Moor, you're welcome to your opinion. I would posit that Sheldrake's theory is scientific and based on observable phenomena. And I would also say that "new" science always seems a little far out to people who subscribe to the old paradigm. I would encourage you not to be so quickly dismissive about something you don't necessarily understand. For science to work, we need to have open minds about explanations for things, otherwise, we'll just always be fitting observable data into conventional categories and never move forward.

Cheers!

Some good points no doubt, and I don't want to drag us off topic, but without questioning the possibility of his theory it still seems a whole lot simpler and more likely that someone just came to the wrong conclusion about these guys eating habits. It's called Occam's razor - Google that if you don't know it. Not as fun and exciting as new force fields bonding us all Avatar-like together, but much (much) more likely.

small alien

07/29/2010, 02:05 PM

Hi Idle Moor. It's okay to drag "off topic". I brought it up.

I agree with your basic premise about the simplest explanation. And your assessment of the feeding habits of these fish is very possibly correct. But I question your assessment that it is "much much more likely." I feel there is a little bias there. How do you know it is much much more likely?

I am not a biologist but it is my understanding that things like instinctive behaviors, regeneration of lost body parts, and the source of the forms (morphogenesis) of creatures in nature are still pretty up in the air science-wise and a lot of assumptions are being made.

Take our genes for example. It is generally accepted that our genes contain the information for the form of our bodies. But we don't really know that. Sheldrake suggests that genes simply code for proteins, the building blocks of our bodies, but that it is these fields of information associated with the species that actually contain the blueprint for our bodies.

He sites the example of a radio. If you gave a radio to a primitive person who had no idea what it was or how it worked and you turned it on and they heard a voice coming out of it, they would likely think the radio itself was producing the voice. But it is not. The voice is produced elsewhere and travels in radio frequencies through the air and is picked up and amplified by the radio.

We assume genes contain the information. Maybe they just allow the organism to tap into it, a la the radio.

I will add that physics has changed radically with the idea of quantum mechanics and chaos theory. They've essentially proved that matter doesn't really exist as such but is made of energy. That is very radical. This idea is no more radical than that to my mind. And I believe it is very pertinent to us fish keepers who study behavior every day when we look at our tanks.

I'd encourage you to give the theory a second chance and maybe pick up one of his books.

Thanks for the discussion.

Best, small

Idle Moor

07/30/2010, 07:06 AM

I've been out of the loop for a while. What is this "DD" of which you speak?

namxas

07/30/2010, 08:30 AM

Diver's Den...it's a division of Live Aquaria. It's a different facility where they "pre-condition" fish prior to selling them.

Idle Moor

07/30/2010, 08:51 AM

Ah thanks, I thought that might be it but I didn't realize that the fish had received any special treatment.

small alien

07/30/2010, 01:01 PM

outstanding animals and outstanding service from DD.

Idle Moor

07/30/2010, 02:21 PM

I see that now having read their info. I might actually consider ponying up for the shipping for something special someday. I like to support my LFS(s) - I know they are hurting mightily in this economy - but they usually don't have what I want anyway, and if they do it is usually disease-infested.

small alien

07/30/2010, 02:25 PM

Just saw another pair of our filefish friends are likely coming up today on DD. Anyone? Anyone?

snorvich

07/30/2010, 02:40 PM

What a great thread! Not just for the success, but for the thinking around the success. We should have more of these, and fewer stocking list threads (sorry, I have been guilty as well).

seahorsedreams

07/30/2010, 07:14 PM

Just saw another pair of our filefish friends are likely coming up today on DD. Anyone? Anyone?

I'll actually pick up another pair, after I move, for a community tank. My original plan was to put these with a few very benign fish, but I chickened out. I worked too hard on these and not many people had them to learn from at the time. A pair already eating frozen from DD I can risk. :-)

I can't wait to put my community tank together....

Makenna

07/30/2010, 09:11 PM

Just saw another pair of our filefish friends are likely coming up today on DD. Anyone? Anyone?

Hey all,

I picked up the pair that was listed today. Will recieve them Wed and then will move them into QT to make sure they get settled in, eating, and comfortable.

I will post some pics and updates then.

Bobby

small alien

08/01/2010, 10:34 AM

Good luck.

small alien

08/01/2010, 10:41 AM

I'll actually pick up another pair, after I move, for a community tank. My original plan was to put these with a few very benign fish, but I chickened out. I worked too hard on these and not many people had them to learn from at the time. A pair already eating frozen from DD I can risk. :-)

I can't wait to put my community tank together....

That tank as I've seen you describe it in that thread will be beyond amazing. Good luck!!!

The decision of where to put these fish is now looming large for me though I feel like I can keep them in the 10 for some time if need be.

I have my 75 gallon reef and the empty 33 gallon cube. I'd really rather have them in the reef. Can you imagine watching a leopard wrasse or pipefish swim past the filefish!?!? :bounce3: OOooo.....:eek1: How amazing would that be. And with the backdrop of colorful corals. oh man. So that's what I'd really like. But I don't want them to munch on my lps. That's the main thing. I'm rather attached to my fungiid collection if I'm using that term properly. Seahorsedreams, do you have any corals at all in with yours?

Or a species tank with a bunch of macro algae would also be cool if a bit sterile. I could maybe sneak an ORA mandarin in there with them if I manage to get one.

Any thoughts? Thanks.

P.S. They both took Ocean Nutrition's Prime Reef Flakes last night and this morning!!! Whee! I'll try to post a little video later today. They seem to love it once they figured out what it was. No soaking or roe juice involved. Cool.

Cheers, the small one :wave:

small alien

08/01/2010, 04:23 PM

Here's a video of them eating the mighty flake.

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/H_yWTiAgbvg&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/H_yWTiAgbvg&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

small alien

08/01/2010, 04:34 PM

And a few pics.
http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn4/smallalien/filefish/IMGP1971.jpg

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn4/smallalien/filefish/IMGP1953.jpg

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn4/smallalien/filefish/IMGP1971.jpg

small alien

08/01/2010, 08:05 PM

Well, to top off a great weekend, they just ate some frozen gel Formula One. Wheeee.

small alien

08/01/2010, 08:06 PM

I'm going to try a peanut butter sandwich on them tomorrow.

namxas

08/03/2010, 09:18 AM

I'm going to try a peanut butter sandwich on them tomorrow.

Somebody said they tried cheese puffs once...I forget who it was. :lol:

snorvich

08/03/2010, 11:40 AM

Looking REALLY good!

small alien

08/03/2010, 12:06 PM

I'm very thankful to have this community to share these experiences with.

A quick list of foods they've eaten:

Nutramar Ova Prawn Roe
Ocean Nutrition Prime Reef Flakes
Frozen Cyclops
NLS small pellets soaked in frozen food juice
Formula 1 Gel food

Still won't take mysis or brine. But that's a longer list than most of my fish.

Would you guys risk these fish in a mixed reef (worried about the corals, not the fish)?

small alien

08/03/2010, 06:47 PM

I knew Matt had gotten them to spawn and was raising fry. But I'd never seen a video of the little suckers.

Check this out.
<object style="height: 344px; width: 425px"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/6YV1yaaeaks"><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/6YV1yaaeaks" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" width="425" height="344"></object>

small alien

08/03/2010, 06:47 PM

Now, how cool is that!!??!!??

Makenna

08/04/2010, 05:08 PM

Got mine in this morning, let them settle in, and then figured, what the hey...

Threw some frozen Mysis in, they tore it up. The larger pieces they mouth and then spit out, which breaks it up, then they go after the the pieces. They are also eating RF Arcti-pods and Nutramar Ova.

I will get some pics and a video up in the next day or so.

They came in looking great. Another great job by DFS DD.

small alien

08/04/2010, 05:35 PM

That's awesome. Looking forward to seeing some pictures of your new blue and yellow friends.

I have to say, because of my excitement about these fish and the fact that they're in their own tank and getting so much attention, I'm really feeling a stronger "emotional" connection to them than any other fish I've kept. My leopards are a close second. But these fish are just beyond captivating.

Hooray!:wave:

namxas

08/05/2010, 11:53 AM

Our OSFF also love grated salmon...if you have frozen salmon, just grate it up with a small grater and let it thaw. In fact, I don't think we have any fish other than the SH that refuse salmon.

It's great to see more of these fish being kept successfully.

small alien

08/05/2010, 12:15 PM

I'll have to try the salmon. Thanks for the tip.:thumbsup:

I'm still looking for input on whether I should try them in my reef. Anyone?

Cheers, paul

Makenna

08/05/2010, 03:31 PM

Todays update on mine. THey both like frozen cyclopeeze. The male woudl much rather the frozen mysis or brine, but he is bigger and so is his mouth as a result. I tried some of the NLS small fish pellets (very small). The female ate them well, the male wasnt to sure about them, but he did pick at them.

As you mentioned Paul, they are entrancing animals. I find myself watching them for long periods.

Bobby

namxas

08/05/2010, 03:34 PM

Ours tend to like the pellets better if they're pre-soaked and softened. That way, they can pick them apart if they feel like it.

anbosu

08/05/2010, 03:39 PM

I'll have to try the salmon. Thanks for the tip.:thumbsup:

I'm still looking for input on whether I should try them in my reef. Anyone?

Cheers, paul

I would probably put them in the 33. I guess you could always put them in the reef and see what happens. Do you have SPS in there? I thought they mostly ate SPS, although I could be completely wrong on this one.

small alien

08/05/2010, 03:52 PM

SPS polyps are part of their natural diet as I understand it. I have a few monti pieces but it wouldn't break my heart if they got nibbled. It's more my LPS I'm worried about.

Thanks.

small alien

08/05/2010, 03:53 PM

Makenna, are you going to start a thread and post some pics? Or post them here if you like.

small alien

08/06/2010, 05:13 PM

Who will be next?

http://www.liveaquaria.com/diversden/itemdisplay.cfm?c=2733+3&ddid=96068&ref=4282&subref=AI&cmpid=E-_-TR-_-DDN-_-PRDCT

bidny

08/10/2010, 12:02 PM

My OSFF eats most anything and loves OSI spirulina flake food. He eats mysis like spaghetti, which I find funny.

I keep mine in a 90 gallon mixed reef tank with other tank-mates. However, I completely agree with keeping them isolated until they start eating food from the water column.

It seems like a switch goes off in their head. One day, they completely ignore every piece of food floating right by their heads. The next day, they are vigorous eaters and can keep up with any other fish.

As long as the fish has enough weight to make it through this period, I think it has a decent chance at survival.

I keep mine with three ignitus anthias, two ocellaris clowns, a tailspot blenny, a green mandarin dragonette, and a convict tang. Even with all the activity during feeding time, my OSFF gets plenty of food.

I also keep LPS, a clam, SPS, a spiral black coral, gorgonians, zoas, and a soft coral. My filefish completely ignores everything except the SPS.

My SPS rarely have PE, except for my pocci and birdnest. However, they are all still doing very well.

Now I just need to find a healthy female OSFF :)

small alien

08/10/2010, 12:15 PM

Thanks a lot, Bidny. Can you tell me more about how they treat your sps and how your sps respond. I do have a few different species of Monti but I'm not super attached.

bidny

08/11/2010, 05:50 PM

Mine tends to take a nip at SPS around once every two or three minutes, even if the SPS has no PE. This seems to happen more to the acros than montis, but I do see him nip at both from time to time.

I never see any polyp damage due to the nipping, which makes me think they are eating either the coral mucus or small animals living on the coral.

However, the stomach content analysis that I saw seemed to show around a 95% coral polyp content. The other 5% was plant / algae matter.

Either way, I never see damage, and my SPS still grows well. I just never see (even at night) PE from the majority of my SPS.

My montis grow exceptionally well, FYI.

small alien

08/12/2010, 05:15 PM

Thank you, Steven. That is helpful. I'm inclined to try it.

Anyone want to talk me out of it???

Cheers.:wave:

small alien

08/17/2010, 10:36 PM

So, after about 4 weeksish, I moved the files into the 75 gallon mixed reef.

For those who are interested, please join me in a new thread on these amazing fish in this reef environment.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?p=17527539#post17527539

gotfrogs

08/18/2010, 06:11 AM

I ordered my pair from DD yesterday. They should be here on Friday.

small alien

08/18/2010, 09:43 AM

Good luck with them, gotfrogs.

twiggyb

08/18/2010, 10:41 AM

I've been trying to order these pairs since I've requested them a couple of months ago on DD and everytime they sell out before I even get an email. Most of the time I'm at work though. I have a small male that I've had I think for about 3 months. I keep him in a jbj 12g. He eats mysis and sps :lol: Without the acros in there he gets skinny pretty quick, I never see him eat the polyps, but rather picks at the skin of them. Not sure, maybe just the slime off them? He was maybe an inch when I got him, but has since grown a half an inch. He started off eating roe then quit, then picked up flakes and pellets then quit, then started mysis and brine, quit the brine and just nipped at mysis. Finally he started eating mysis, but he won't eat it unless it's whole. I'm hoping I can get him to eat more of a variety as he grows bigger.

small alien

08/18/2010, 11:14 AM

Interesting feeding info, twiggyb. Got a picture of your little fella?

twiggyb

08/18/2010, 11:49 AM

:thumbsup:one for here too:thumbsup:

http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac292/twiggybrown/fish%20shots/DSCF2685.jpg

small alien

08/18/2010, 01:46 PM

That fish is buggin'! :) You have the Flava Flav of filefish. Just needs a little clock hanging from it.

twiggyb

08/18/2010, 04:09 PM

Just so happens he had his piece and chain on right before this pic and then it slipped off on the one I posted, but here's that one

http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac292/twiggybrown/fish%20shots/flavapat.jpg

small alien

08/19/2010, 01:12 PM

good show, twiggyb!!!!!

bidny

08/19/2010, 09:35 PM

That's awesome! Hahaha!

twiggyb

08/19/2010, 10:21 PM

Waaaaaaaaaa!

gotfrogs

08/23/2010, 08:15 PM

I purchased a pair from DD last week and they arrived on Friday the 20th. I did not get them to eat anything until Sunday. I had attempted frozen mysis, flake food, pellets, frozen Cyclop-eeze, roe, and live baby brine shrimp but did not have any luck. The food that did work was Instant Ocean Cyclop-Eeze gel attached to an SPS skeleton. Here is a short video that I just took of one of them eating.

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Makenna

08/23/2010, 08:23 PM

When I got mine in I used the same brands they do at DFS. That is the Hikari frozen brine and mysis.

Just wanted to mention it just in case you tried different brands.

gotfrogs

08/23/2010, 08:52 PM

Makenna - Thanks for the post. I gave Hikari mysis a try several times and the most I got was a small tasting of the shrimp followed by spitting it out.

Makenna

08/23/2010, 08:59 PM

try again and watch them closely. I found that the hikari was a bit to large and that they would spit it out, break it up, and then swallow the smaller pieces.

The Hikari brine however seems to be a bit easier for them to get down.

That being said, the male I have is a bit larger than the female and she does have a bit tougher time. She loves the flake though.

Just keep at it and keep a close eye on the water quality for sure. The one in the video looks healthy, so that is half the battle.

small alien

08/24/2010, 01:39 PM

At least it is eating something prepared even if you have to work pretty hard at it. I would suggest taking that gel cyclops and rubbing it or some juice from it on another food, maybe pellets. Let them soften and get the smell of something the fish associates with food. Then mash them up a bit and put them into the water column with the flow on. See what happens. Thanks to Uhuru for that input when I got mine.

Good luck.