Help with 1st sump layout

[greech]

Please forgive my crude drawing but I was hoping to get some input on my first sump plans. I will be using a 29 gallon (30x12x18) for the sump under a 40 breeder DT. My overflow is a eshopps PF-800 rated at 600-800 gph (although I have read these numbers are a bit of a stretch. The bulkhead is a 1" and I will run spaflex (sp?) hose to the filter sock. Not sure how to do the return line but I am looking at just using flex tubing with a ball valve in that line to regulate the return flow.

My concern is whether or not I have enough space allocated for each section and also if my baffles are at the correct height. The skimmer will be a SWC 120 which has a recommended water depth of 5 to 8" so if I go with this layout I will need to make a stand for the skimmer. I want the return section to be a bit on the small side in case I lose siphon. Can I/should I make this section smaller? Currently there will be 4" of water above the top of the pump (or 1.25 gallons).

Am I anywhere close to having this correct?

http://i709.photobucket.com/albums/ww93/greech/Sump_29G.jpg

[Flame_Angel]

If that's a filter sock hanging under the inflow to the sump, get rid of it. In my experience they only end up getting mucked up with detritus and becoming a nitrate factory unless you're extremely diligent in keeping them clean. Otherwise the general layout looks fine.

[fender4string]

I vote keep the filter sock and just make sure to clean it. It'll help trap and crap that'll other wise just settle in your sump.

I'd say make 8" baffle 9" as well. Otherwise you'll only have 8" of water in the fuge.

Here's my layout which gave me more depth in my fuge:

http://i418.photobucket.com/albums/pp267/fender4string/Random/Finalsump.jpg

I added a ball valve and changed the ball valve location to be on each horizontal split on the drain.

Also I ended up siphoning the sand out of the fuge. It's not really worth it unless it's a DSB. After I removed the sand my "splash guard" was taken out as well which provided more flow for the chaeto.

[chimmike]

don't use a ball valve on the drain.

split the return and feed the fuge off the return, but don't splut the drain.

You want as much flow to turnover thru the sump as possible. Using the return pump to feed the fuge can help control flow in the sump itself.

[fender4string]

What's the reasoning for wanting a high turnover in the sump? This is something that I've heard a bit of debate about and to me I don't think a high turnover is necessary as your skimmer will only filter what it's pumps can pump in.

Also I'd stick with the ball valves on the drain only in the instance that you have to do maintenance. Being able to close off water flow to the sump in the instance is a good option IMO.

Not trying to argue with the other posters just giving my opinion :).

[chimmike]

it makes perfect sense to me as I've had lower flow through my sump.

Higher flow keeps all the gunk in suspension, rather than flowing slowly through the sump. Slow flow in the sump allows gunk to settle, and what you get is breakdown of the gunk that settles into ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates. If everything stays in suspension, it can feed the corals and be better caught by the skimmer.

I had lower flow through my old sump, and all sorts of gunk settled in it. It was a PITA to keep cleaning it out, and it would get enough over a few days that it REALLY needed cleaning every week.

regardless of the fact that you don't want to split your drain anyways. You want it to flow directly as quickly as possible.

[fender4string]

Ok that's good reasoning on the higher flow. Especially if you don't have a filter sock.

Here's my reasoning for the split drain vs. single drain. Let me know what you think about this: Flow through the sump is dependent on the return pump's power. I.e. if you have an 800 gph pump that's what's flowing through your sump (after accounting for head loss of course). As for speed of water fall in the drains, that's all on gravity. Granted, the water has less distance to travel down a straight pipe which will lead to a shorter time from tank to sump. However, does the extra half second or so the water spends in the horizontal sections really that detrimental to the efficiency of the sump.

That's my thinking. If the logic is flawed let me know.

[chimmike]

you've got to remember that any resistance the drain meets on it's gravity feed slows the flow down which could cause a backup in the main tank. I'd never tee off the drain or alter it in any way from flowing directly into the sump.

[greech]

Really appreciate the discussion everyone, very helpful. I am going to keep the sock for now as it's easy enough to remove if it becomes problematic. Plan to have 6 or so socks in the rotation as well.

fender4string and chimmike - Can you give me some more details on how you plumb the return to split to the fuge? Assume that means a portion of the retun continues on to the display while the rest goes to the fuge? Seems like a constant balancing act. How do you ensure everything stays full? Also what are your thoughts on using the spaflex for the drain and the flex tubing for the return considering your comments and the need for in-line valves. I chose the spaflex to make it easier to remove the overflow box for cleaning. Same thought on using tubing off the return as I would imagine I would need to clean the pump every so often.

fender4strings - Are those 3" baffles in the center set just above the intake height of the return pump to prevent it from going dry?

[fender4string]

I think you'd have to have one hell of back-up (i.e. a fish stuck in the drain :D ) for that to happen.

Just so you know man I'm not arguing for the sake of arguing. I just like to see where people are coming from and learn something new if I'm wrong. This is just a friendly debate :).

[chimmike]

Greech: There should be no balancing act with the return pump. You want the vast majority of flow going back to your display. The line to feed the fuge should be small and the ball valve will restrict the flow into the fuge. You don't want a ton of flow in the fuge.
Again, this may require using a pump hat is slightly more powerful than what you considered initially, but it's best for maintaining good flow thought the sump and controlling flow through the fuge itself.

[greech]

No problem getting a bigger return if that is what's needed. Can you give me an idea of the parts I would need coming off the return to make that happen? How do I get the return flow to go two separate directions? Also is the return between the fuge and the skimmer ares in your layout?

Going to work on another layout.

[chimmike]

Simmer will be in the drain portion. Return section should be in the middle.

As far as plumbing, it's relatively simple.

Plumbing goes up towards the display tank from the return pump. A simple T fitting (straight portion going towards the display) breaking off from the main line followed by a ball valve on the portion of line going to the fuge. Water will find it's way this way, and use the ball valve to dial back flow to the fuge to make sure the majority of flow goes to the display. The ball valve should be closed probably halfway, maybe more, you'll be able to fine tune it.

[greech]

Got it. Thanks for the explanation!

[Tuscaquatics]

You want a reasonable amount of flow through the fuge. But you want to keep any detritus out of it. This is one mistake I see people making all the time.

Make the fuge the last thing before the return pump. Ideally, have the drain empty into the skimmer section, then into the return section, and have a "T" on the return line with a ball valve to send some of the return flow into your fuge.

Make sure and have plenty of mechanical filtration before the skimmer to prevent detritus from ever entering the fuge. A filter sock can be used, though I've heard they clog up pretty easily and can cause problems. I just use a sponge in the overflow.

Ideally all you want going into the fuge is nutrient-rich water, not detritus.

[Elvishfrost]

Tusca and chim - great explanations.. I've been searching for this type of info myself and for whatever reason it wasn't clicking, until now. By putting a T on the return line, how much (approx) would you saw that is going to diminish the output of the return pump, while maintaining the desired flow through the fuge, and return to the display? I will also be utilizing this design for my 40b, but with a 40b sump.. I currently have a mag 7 for the return, but may increase this...based on this new info.

[Tuscaquatics]

Elvish, it'll pretty much have to be up to you. Just for an example, I have a 75 gallon with a 30 long sump. I use a Mag 3 for my return, which is really small. But it works. I had an older Little Giant external pump but it was too big, so I swapped it with a friend for the newer Mag 3. It's not really even enough flow for the return itself, so I don't actually have my sump set up like I talked about, though it's essentially the same.

Instead of splitting off the return from the Mag, I just left that alone as solely the return, and I just added a couple powerheads in the return section to feed the fuge. But if I did get a new pump, it would probably have to be a little bigger than a Mag 7 for my 75 in order to split the return flow.

So what I'm getting at, is that for a 40 gallon, I would think the 7 would be enough to do both. But I might let others chime in as well, as I'm not an expert on GPH and whatnot.

[greech]

Thank you for the added explanation Tuscaquatics. Working up a new plan now. I also thought about using a small pump like a maxijet to send the water to the fuge and keep my return dedicated to the refilling the DT. Good to know this is an option. If I went with a single pump with a T would it be helpful to have a ball valve on both the line going to the fuge as well as a BV on the line coming off the T going to the fuge? Also, chimmike mentioned using smaller diameter pipe to the fuge. How do I know what size to go with here?

[chimmike]

depending on your pump, figure a mag 7 or mag 9, the pipe from the pump itself should probably be 1". Get a 1" tee with the small part 3/4". Continue the 1' pipe to the display. the 3/4" pipe should have a ball valve on it (a true union ball valve for plumbing ease, and the return pump should have a true union ball valve on the 1" pipe before the T as well, for ease of removal for cleaning) to control the flow to the fuge.

[greech]

Perfect! I think I have it now. Will need to check the size of the larger pump and adjust baffles accordingly. Really appreciate all the help.

[chimmike]

lets see some pics once it's all set up!