Captive Bred Yellow Tangs

[jaa1456]

I was at a very well known LFS in NJ yesterday. I came across 2 tanks that made me pause for a moment and make sure I was reading what I saw correctly. There was a tank with about 15 Yellow tangs, that were CAPTIVE BRED, Not Tank Raised but CAPTIVE BRED. I asked the owner and he said they are indeed CAPTIVE BRED. The tank next to it had CAPTIVE BRED Lookdowns. They were about the size of a 50 cents piece. I don't wanna think that the owner was lying to me as he is well known in the hobby and not just in the NJ/NY area, but in all kinds of magazine,books and various other venues. Crossing my fingers that this is true.

[elegance coral]

Captive "bred" or captive "raised"? I can't see someone going through all the trouble and expense to breed these fish in captivity. May, highly unlikely, but maybe, someone captured juvenile yellow tangs and grew them out in captivity????????? I think you're right to be suspicious. There's something wrong with this story.

[ziyaadb]

more like captive raised and i will believe him

[Beaun]

I read that captive raised lookdowns were going to be coming out soon from Proaquatix, so I'm not sure about the captive bred, probably just a mix up.

[jmaneyapanda]

Im calling shenanigans on captive bred tangs.

[tydtran]

The owner was not willing to identify the source to you? Is this the well known store in North NJ?

[TampaReefer79]

And the survey says...EEHHHHHHHHHHHH! Strike 3, I'm sorry. No fast money today!

[velvetelvis]

I think Sustainable Aquatics is doing tank-raised tangs (blue, yellow-eye kole, and yellow), but I haven't heard of actual captive-bred ones.

[jaa1456]

The owner was not willing to identify the source to you? Is this the well known store in North NJ??The store is in North Jersey, and the info I got was that they were BRED in some type of indoor facility in Hawaii. Thats what I pretty much got, although he was very busy at the time I tried to talk to him. Could also just be a scam trying to capatalize on the new trend of selling/buying captive bred livestock. And if you know north NJ then you should know the large store i'm talking about.

[Beaun]

If its the same shop I'm thinking of, I went on thier website and their "What's New" section said "Captive Raised Lookdown"

[Levito]

Yea, their site says captive raised lookdown. there's no mention of captive bred or raised yellow tang.

[glextank]

We have a lfs that just got a vendor with tank raised:

tassled file
jordan's tusk
blue hippo tang (pacific)
yellow tang
kole tang
gold spotted rabbitfish
rainfordi goby
white sleeper goby
green chromis
talbots damsel
long spine cardinal

Now granted, they are quite a bit more expensive than WC.

[jmaneyapanda]

?The store is in North Jersey, and the info I got was that they were BRED in some type of indoor facility in Hawaii. Thats what I pretty much got, although he was very busy at the time I tried to talk to him. Could also just be a scam trying to capatalize on the new trend of selling/buying captive bred livestock. And if you know north NJ then you should know the large store i'm talking about.

Im quite positive that there is no commercial breeding of tangs currently. There are numerous large institutions which have them spawn, but collection and rearing of the eggs is a hurdle not yet achieved. The captive reared fish are collected post larval, and reared from this point. If this vendor is selling these fish as captive bred, he is fraudulently selling these fish, and is trying to bump profit at your expense. If I am wrong in any of this, someone please tell me who is raising tangs in captivity.

[vwtanker]

I have extensively searched this topic and believe you are correct. I think it causes a lot of confusion classifying the wild caught post larval fish as tank raised. I like the practice but "tank raised" originally meant they were bred in captivity.
They should call them "Post Larval Grown" :) This would clear up lots of confusion.

[jaa1456]

I'm not saying they are captive Bred, just telling you guys what the LFS says. SO don't shoot the messenger. The store is Absolutely Fish and the lookdowns they have or had were in the tank right next to the yellows and they also said CAPTIVE BRED on the tank. Remember its not that I believe them, this is about them saying they have them.

[elegance coral]

I'm not saying they are captive Bred, just telling you guys what the LFS says. SO don't shoot the messenger. The store is Absolutely Fish and the lookdowns they have or had were in the tank right next to the yellows and they also said CAPTIVE BRED on the tank. Remember its not that I believe them, this is about them saying they have them.

No one is trying to shoot the messenger. It's not that we doubt what you're saying. We just don't believe what the LFS is saying.

[melanotaenia]

This is most likely just a problem of diction. Absolutely Fish is a top notch facility, always has been since I have been going there.

And tank raised vs. tank bred? Who really cares when you think about how they will adapt much better in captivity compared to collecting full size specimens that have grown up in the wild eating a myriad of different foods.

And who knows? It may be true; there are things that go on in the aquaculture world beyond the microcosm of this reef board.

[jaa1456]

This is most likely just a problem of diction. Absolutely Fish is a top notch facility, always has been since I have been going there.

And tank raised vs. tank bred? Who really cares when you think about how they will adapt much better in captivity compared to collecting full size specimens that have grown up in the wild eating a myriad of different foods.

And who knows? It may be true; there are things that go on in the aquaculture world beyond the microcosm of this reef board.I wish you would back me up with that on another site, those guys are trying to eat me alive over the, but I notice I never see them on this site. They must like the comfort of their private little corner.

[TampaReefer79]

This is most likely just a problem of diction. Absolutely Fish is a top notch facility, always has been since I have been going there.

And tank raised vs. tank bred? Who really cares when you think about how they will adapt much better in captivity compared to collecting full size specimens that have grown up in the wild eating a myriad of different foods.

Who really cares? Captive bred tangs (among other fish) would be a HUGE deal. While captive raised is better than wild, captive bred would be a monumental achievement when most thought it impossible.

And who knows? It may be true; there are things that go on in the aquaculture world beyond the microcosm of this reef board.

Really? LOL Like what? Please explain one to me. I can't log into RC without finding out a new item that will be coming out 4 years from now and folks already know the sale introductory price. lol Seems out of the many many many folks here, nothing gets by the masses. It only takes ONE person finding something out and the word spreads like wildfire. How soon BEFORE they came out was I reading about ORA mandarins?

[melanotaenia]

Right, because this forum is the end all to everything related to anything reef or marine related, both on the collection side and the aquaculture side. :rolleyes:

Information about some of the captive reared fish companies outside or ORA is made available to the public before this board hears about it.

Glassbox Design
Reef Builders
etc.

Shall I go on?

And the who really cares remark was made in reference to the consumer who will purchase these fish, who is really interested in knowing that being in captivity for longer periods of time translates to better adaptive behaviors in the home aquarium, not so much about whether they are captive bred vs. captive raised.

Surely anyone looking for one of these fish would rather buy captive bred, captive raised, whatever, compared to a fish that is caught in the wild at an older age and thus become harder to adapt.

[RealReef7]

captive bred yellow tangs is B.S. too expensive.

[jmaneyapanda]

This is most likely just a problem of diction. Absolutely Fish is a top notch facility, always has been since I have been going there.

And tank raised vs. tank bred? Who really cares when you think about how they will adapt much better in captivity compared to collecting full size specimens that have grown up in the wild eating a myriad of different foods.

And who knows? It may be true; there are things that go on in the aquaculture world beyond the microcosm of this reef board.

I agree, it is likely a grammatical error, but the way it is expressed in the OP post:

There was a tank with about 15 Yellow tangs, that were CAPTIVE BRED, Not Tank Raised but CAPTIVE BRED. I asked the owner and he said they are indeed CAPTIVE BRED.

He makes it pretty clear the proprietor is trying to sell fish as born and raised in captivity (ain as much as the comments from the OP). To that, I object. That is fraudulently selling. Its like selling used car as new, because it only has "a couple thousand miles on it". Semantics? yes. But, also unfairly fraudulent? Yes. I would speculate that these "captive bred" fish go for more than wild ones, or captive reared ones too. That is just a guess of mine, though.

As for the information and techniques being available, RC is the largest reefing forum in the world, likely. Are you suggesting that this technology was developed, mastered, and made it to market in NJ before ANYONE has heard of it? Anywhere? That seems quite ludicrous.

Again, if this technology is out there, where tangs are now being captive bred for retail, please point me in the direction of where I can find information on it. A source, a company name, anything. Until then, shenanigans it is.

[velvetelvis]

I think part of the problem (although not necessarily in this case) is that a lot of LFS staff aren't familiar with the difference between "captive-bred" and "tank-raised"

[melanotaenia]

I am not saying that people are voraciously breeding yellow tangs, but I do know that it is possible for things to go on in the hobby that may not make it here to Reef Central immediately.

I try to keep an open mind about these topics because there are some crazy things going on in the marine hobby right now. Captive reared fish, breeding of Mandarins, catching new species of fish on re-breathers, etc. etc. With all the new advancements that have taken place, I try to be optimistic of moving forward in the hobby instead of lambasting a forum post or store based on something like an error in speak.

And I am know the owner of said store and have spoken to him many times; I would put money down right now that it was simply a misunderstanding in labeling by the wholesaler or the invoice, and not an underhanded attempt to sell a fish for more based on a captive bred vs. captive raised scenario.

How much were these tangs going for BTW? If I remember correctly, the captive raised hippos were selling for about 89.99 on Divers Den, so if these Yellow Tangs are selling in a similar price point or less, then they are most likely captive raised. Which I still think is pretty cool.

[velvetelvis]

OT, melanotaenia, but you must be a fan of rainbowfish...am I right? I used to have two or three tanks of them myself. :)

[melanotaenia]

OT, melanotaenia, but you must be a fan of rainbowfish...am I right? I used to have two or three tanks of them myself. :)

Ah yes, my Rainbowfish love began very early, I kept a shoal of them in a huge tank for over 10 years. I was one of the first to get the Melanotaenia praecox rainbows when they were being collected in the wild. They grew huge. I plan on getting into another fairly large rainbow tank in the near future. They are great fish :) :)

[jmaneyapanda]

I am not saying that people are voraciously breeding yellow tangs, but I do know that it is possible for things to go on in the hobby that may not make it here to Reef Central immediately.

I try to keep an open mind about these topics because there are some crazy things going on in the marine hobby right now. Captive reared fish, breeding of Mandarins, catching new species of fish on re-breathers, etc. etc. With all the new advancements that have taken place, I try to be optimistic of moving forward in the hobby instead of lambasting a forum post or store based on something like an error in speak.

And I am know the owner of said store and have spoken to him many times; I would put money down right now that it was simply a misunderstanding in labeling by the wholesaler or the invoice, and not an underhanded attempt to sell a fish for more based on a captive bred vs. captive raised scenario.

How much were these tangs going for BTW? If I remember correctly, the captive raised hippos were selling for about 89.99 on Divers Den, so if these Yellow Tangs are selling in a similar price point or less, then they are most likely captive raised. Which I still think is pretty cool.

Again, I agree, it was surely a error in terminology. But, as this post was presented, it appears not. When, by direct account, a LFS owner makes that rather direct claim that they are NOT tank reared, but tank raised, you have to think he knows what he was claiming. Is it reason to break out the pitchforks and torches? Of course not. But, it does merit clarification. And not camoflauge, in saying (sic), "Well, theres really no functional difference between captive reared and captive bred". There is a WORLD of difference.

This hobby is indeed advancing. However, too often, it is not "new hat". Using your example, I happen to own a captive bred mandarin, bred my Matt Wittenrich, which I picked up at MACNA 2008 in Atlanta. This technology is known, and out there, and always has been. Rebreather technology has been around for a while. Yes, we are catching enw fish, but it isnt unheard of. However, if the first hint of tang breeding seemingly comes about from a lot of fish for sale at a LFS, I do think that is incorrect. If there is ANY info out there, lets have it. Otherwsie, I think we can all agree this isnt accurate.

Again, I do not doubt the fish store owners credibility, but, undeniably, in this case (according to the OP), he rather definitely and inarguably made the claim to be selling something that is likely impossible. An error? Yes, most likely. However, if he is going to sell them, and make this claim, he should be cautious and clear as to the facts. Otherwise, it does become purposefully mislabelling.

[angelsil]

Interesting. I used to live around the corner from said LFS. I bought a captive Argi back in the day there under similar circumstances. I had never heard of Argis being captive bred, but the salesperson assured me there was some guy in Jersey in a basement doing it or something. The fish was fine and lived happily in my 29 until I moved.

While I'm willing to believe a basement hobbyist breeding dwarf angels, I can't imagine yellow tangs being raised in commercial quantities (or, really, at all) and nobody knowing about it. I can't see there being a solid business model given the amount of space needed. It just doesn't make any kind of sense. I know the store prides itself on stocking the weird and rare but the science is lacking here, at least as far as I know.

Captive raised tangs are still cool and definitely good for the hobby, but let's make sure we're clearly labeling something as what it is.

[jaa1456]

I agree, it is likely a grammatical error, but the way it is expressed in the OP post:



He makes it pretty clear the proprietor is trying to sell fish as born and raised in captivity (ain as much as the comments from the OP). To that, I object. That is fraudulently selling. Its like selling used car as new, because it only has "a couple thousand miles on it". Semantics? yes. But, also unfairly fraudulent? Yes. I would speculate that these "captive bred" fish go for more than wild ones, or captive reared ones too. That is just a guess of mine, though.

As for the information and techniques being available, RC is the largest reefing forum in the world, likely. Are you suggesting that this technology was developed, mastered, and made it to market in NJ before ANYONE has heard of it? Anywhere? That seems quite ludicrous.

Again, if this technology is out there, where tangs are now being captive bred for retail, please point me in the direction of where I can find information on it. A source, a company name, anything. Until then, shenanigans it is.Well I went there today and a manager said they were indeed CAPTIVE RAISED, they changed the listing on the tank and the price went from 30 up to 49 in 2 days, I was saddened to learn they were not captive bred due to the good this would bring the hobby, but I was also ready for those words as well. On another note I remember when I got into this hobby and no fish were captive bred at all and they always said it would be impossible to do so. This was 16 years ago and now you have clowns, dottybacks and mandrins that i know of. i probrably missed something but thats more than they said would ever happen.

[jaa1456]

Oh and one other thing, The members of this Site or much more civilized than members on other sites. Notably Manhattan Reefs. A member there that says he is amember here has been harrassing me to no end over there. Yet I see he has yet to show himself here. I believe this site is to intelligent for him and the members here have respect and rather jump to conclusions and call you names, you guys wait and see the truth before making judgement. Kudos to you guys.

[TampaReefer79]

Well I went there today and a manager said they were indeed CAPTIVE RAISED, they changed the listing on the tank and the price went from 30 up to 49 in 2 days, I was saddened to learn they were not captive bred due to the good this would bring the hobby, but I was also ready for those words as well. On another note I remember when I got into this hobby and no fish were captive bred at all and they always said it would be impossible to do so. This was 16 years ago and now you have clowns, dottybacks and mandrins that i know of. i probrably missed something but thats more than they said would ever happen.

Clowns
Damsels
Dwarf Angels
Mandarins
Dottybacks
Gobies
Blennies
Cardinals
Seahorses
Assessors

Any others that I can't think of?

[tcmfish]

I try to keep an open mind about these topics because there are some crazy things going on in the marine hobby right now. Captive reared fish, breeding of Mandarins, catching new species of fish on re-breathers, etc. etc. With all the new advancements that have taken place, I try to be optimistic of moving forward in the hobby instead of lambasting a forum post or store based on something like an error in speak.

First off, Mandarins are way easier to raise than tangs... Just because adult wild mandarins don't always accept prepared foods, does not mean the larvae are impossible, obviously... Okay. So I mean I know everyone and there mother wants a mandarin, but I will be really impressed when someone captively breeds and raises a tang. And yes I am saying these tangs you are talking about aren't captive bred.

Interesting. I used to live around the corner from said LFS. I bought a captive Argi back in the day there under similar circumstances. I had never heard of Argis being captive bred, but the salesperson assured me there was some guy in Jersey in a basement doing it or something. The fish was fine and lived happily in my 29 until I moved.

Got any comfirmation. I highly doubt it. Unless you saw the breeding/raising operation I don't believe it. I think the farthest anyone has gone with that species is 9 days by Martin Moe.

LFS are in it to make money.

[jaa1456]

I know of a Dwarf Angel that a guy in the UK breeds in his tanks at home. I remember reading a huge article about it. I forget the actual name of the angel, but they were blue and yellow and very hard to come by since the only island they come from will not let them be exported anymore. I think they were priced around 2,000 apiece.

[tcmfish]

Breeding and raising are totally different. Basically anyone with two dwarfs of the same species, and a twilight period with warmer temps can get their fish to spawn nightly if they feed them enough.

Resplendent Angels is probably what you are talking about. Frank at RCT raised those, and there are still some of his floating around but the fact that someone had them spawning, while it is great really isn't that impressive.

[jmaneyapanda]

I know of a Dwarf Angel that a guy in the UK breeds in his tanks at home. I remember reading a huge article about it. I forget the actual name of the angel, but they were blue and yellow and very hard to come by since the only island they come from will not let them be exported anymore. I think they were priced around 2,000 apiece.

Please find and provide the article. Id love to read about it. If there is a basement breeder raising and selling dwarf angels, he's a fool for not going more public.

As Tim (TCM) said, I think you might be thinking of Frank at RCT in Hawaii.

[jmaneyapanda]

Well I went there today and a manager said they were indeed CAPTIVE RAISED, they changed the listing on the tank and the price went from 30 up to 49 in 2 days, I was saddened to learn they were not captive bred due to the good this would bring the hobby, but I was also ready for those words as well. On another note I remember when I got into this hobby and no fish were captive bred at all and they always said it would be impossible to do so. This was 16 years ago and now you have clowns, dottybacks and mandrins that i know of. i probrably missed something but thats more than they said would ever happen.

Did he happen to say from where? Im curious. I know Sustainable Aquatics in Tennessee had doen soem hepatus tangs, but didnt know that Zebrasoma sp. were on the pipeline.

[tcmfish]

The article is probably just about them spawning.

[jaa1456]

They are the Resplendent angels that tcmfish mentioned and in the article the guy had them spawn/breed/ call it what you want but he had is angels breed and raises the fry up to sellable sizes and then sells them. But if I remember correctly there were not a ton of them surviving. I think it was about 5-8 out of every spawn and that was maybe once or twice a year. The article was in a small free magazine I have laying around somewhere here. I need to dig it up.

[tcmfish]

If he was raising them, then it is most likely Frank B. from RCT and he was based out of Hawaii.

[jaa1456]

No this guy is out of the UK and was breeding them. I remember that part as he lost most of his broodstock and they allowed him back to collect more adults.

[jmaneyapanda]

No this guy is out of the UK and was breeding them. I remember that part as he lost most of his broodstock and they allowed him back to collect more adults.

Please provide the source of the information.

[jaa1456]

Go to Reef Hobbyist magazine, on their website it will show you the issues, got to bottom left Volume 4 issue 1. I believe it starts on page 16, they talk about a few that were bred in home aquariums. Further into the magazine they talk about the collector/breeder. Although he is not mentioned as the breeder in this article he is in fact the breeder the article is about. Peter something, I forgot his last name. But he was selling these fish from his home in the UK for 2000-4000 a fish.

[jmaneyapanda]

Um, I dont see anywhere where it says they were bred in the home aquarium. In fact, in this page:
http://reefhobbyistmagazine.com/archives/vol_4/issue13/images/pg17.jpg

they only allude that flames may be available soon. Please show me where you are finding that Peter bred them, and sold them for 2000-4000 each. I just cant find it.

[jaa1456]

2nd paragraph, about 2/3rds down it says in plain view. "There have been a few succesful captive breedings of these angels. And if you read further into the magazine like I said around page 20 or so it mentions Peter. The info I have on him breeding and selling them is from another Mgazine that I'm looking for. I have a lot of magazines and articles boxed up and I know this article on selling them is almost 10-12 years old so it will take me awhile to find the exact article. But it does indeed say above in the second article that they were bred in captivity and the Flames are captive raised not bred.

[copps]

The only successful captive spawning and raising of Centropyge to sellable size has been in Hawaii. Three institutions independently raised flame angels oddly enough... and two of those ONLY did a few flame angels... the great Frank Baensch of RCT was the first to do Centropyge in 2001 and the only to do more than one species (he did nine species and one hybrid, including the resplendens).

Peter had a wild group of resplendens in England and never raised any... unfortunately he's since lost that amazing group! The only access to Ascension is through military flights from England (unless going by boat).

Copps

[jaa1456]

The only successful captive spawning and raising of Centropyge to sellable size has been in Hawaii. Three institutions independently raised flame angels oddly enough... and two of those ONLY did a few flame angels... the great Frank Baensch of RCT was the first to do Centropyge in 2001 and the only to do more than one species (he did nine species and one hybrid, including the resplendens).

Peter had a wild group of resplendens in England and never raised any... unfortunately he's since lost that amazing group! The only access to Ascension is through military flights from England (unless going by boat).

CoppsI have to find that other article that has them published, I saw it years ago and I remember the article saying he raised and sold some of them. I do not remember the entire article, but I do remember that part because it was groundbreaking and the hobby then was not as well known as now. And this website didn't even exist then.

[jmaneyapanda]

I have to find that other article that has them published, I saw it years ago and I remember the article saying he raised and sold some of them. I do not remember the entire article, but I do remember that part because it was groundbreaking and the hobby then was not as well known as now. And this website didn't even exist then.

Hey man, not to sound abrupt, but you're wrong.You're making assumptions and deductions that arent correct. As John said, he had a wonderful collection, but he didnt successfully breed them.

[copps]

I have to find that other article that has them published, I saw it years ago and I remember the article saying he raised and sold some of them. I do not remember the entire article, but I do remember that part because it was groundbreaking and the hobby then was not as well known as now. And this website didn't even exist then.

You may be mixing things up... a few years back Frank's work was profiled in the Journal of Heredity, and Peter's picture was actually on the cover for that article. I can assure you Peter did not raise resplendens... I got his amazing resplendens story straight from him, but none of it involves raising them...

[jaa1456]

Ok besides from that, The article clearly states that they were bred in Captivity, It does not say by who, but it does say it right in the article above.

[jmaneyapanda]

Ok besides from that, The article clearly states that they were bred in Captivity, It does not say by who, but it does say it right in the article above.

Yeah. By RCT. Which many have already said.

[copps]

It will be a long time before we see captive bred yellow tangs also unfortunately... these are collected and exported by the thousands out of Kona each week and are BY FAR the #1 export for the aquarium trade from Hawaii... add up the numbers of #2 through #20 on the species list and it would still not equal the number of yellows. Fortunately for Hawaiian collectors, yellow tangs are only found in great numbers in Hawaii... if Hawaii never rose out of the ocean yellow tangs would be a very expensive tang! :)

Also, I'm curious to know how long a facility has to keep a wild specimen before it's considered "tank raised".

[jaa1456]

Yeah. By RCT. Which many have already said.It does not mention RTC, that is what you and Copps said. I need to find that article. And the part of tank raised? i have no clue what determines what they mean tank raised. I have heard some say from larval stage and others say from juvenile stages. I guess it depends on which collector/exporter you talk to.

[jmaneyapanda]

It does not mention RTC, that is what you and Copps said. I need to find that article. And the part of tank raised? i have no clue what determines what they mean tank raised. I have heard some say from larval stage and others say from juvenile stages. I guess it depends on which collector/exporter you talk to.

Actually, Tim (TCM), Myslef, and Copps, all said RCT has done it. The article does not mention it, but it has been mentioned here several times.

I would love to see an article stating that others have done it. Until I do, and the source can be verified, I will have to insist that it hasnt, IMO.

As for tank raised, I have no clue as to how this is determined. To be honest, I would go based off of the supplier. If its a company with a a solid repuattion and the data and "proof" to back it up, excellent. If it s a source that refuses to reveal anything- nope. JMHO.

[TampaReefer79]

Hey jmaneyapanda...do you know if dwarf angels have been tank bred yet?



http://www.cosgan.de/images/smilie/frech/r070.gif

[copps]

I have to find that other article that has them published, I saw it years ago and I remember the article saying he raised and sold some of them. I do not remember the entire article, but I do remember that part because it was groundbreaking and the hobby then was not as well known as now. And this website didn't even exist then.


It does not mention RTC, that is what you and Copps said. I need to find that article. \

Frank Baensch of RCT is well known in the hobby and the scientific communtiy as being the first to successfully spawn and raise angels in captivity in 2001 (not just by us here on RC). Is it possible that someone did it before him? Yes (minutely)... but there was nothing published on it as the scientific community would have known... and you are saying this was done before reefcentral existed which would be back into the 90s well before Frank.

[jmaneyapanda]

Hey jmaneyapanda...do you know if dwarf angels have been tank bred yet?



http://www.cosgan.de/images/smilie/frech/r070.gif

Yes. By me, in my bathtub. But I will provide no pictures, data, or other information.

[jaa1456]

Frank Baensch of RCT is well known in the hobby and the scientific communtiy as being the first to successfully spawn and raise angels in captivity in 2001 (not just by us here on RC). Is it possible that someone did it before him? Yes (minutely)... but there was nothing published on it as the scientific community would have known... and you are saying this was done before reefcentral existed which would be back into the 90s well before Frank.So because it was done by someone else and before this site that means it didn't happen right? What did you say when you first heard of other fish being bred in Captivity? Did you say nope impossible as well? I'm not sure of the exact date this site started but I believe it was in the late 90's as in 98 or 99, so the guy who did breed them would have had almost a decade to do so. I mean most of the people in this hobby today have learned from mistakes and efforts made by poeple who had marine/reef tanks for years and years. I don't care what you say but you can not replace experience, no matter how much you read. Owning a reef tank for over 16 years now, I have experienced alot that othere members haven't and I was around when things were still infantile. And I really need to find those articles on that angel.

[jaa1456]

Yes. By me, in my bathtub. But I will provide no pictures, data, or other information. I have provided some material for you that clearly states they have been bred in captivity, while it leaves out a name and place it does confirm Captive Breed angels. You just don't know how to read I guess. And as I stated I have to look through a ton of magazines and articles I have that are packed in boxes. It's like finding a needle in a haystack and I'm not gonna spend all my time looking for this article. When I find it, I will post it.

[TampaReefer79]

I can't believe this is 60 posts long, the last 45 being the same thing over and over...but I'll go back to my point way back when: If it has happened, the RC community would know about it. No doubt about it. All it takes is ONE person to find something out and it would spread like wildfire here.

[jmaneyapanda]

I have provided some material for you that clearly states they have been bred in captivity, while it leaves out a name and place it does confirm Captive Breed angels. You just don't know how to read I guess. And as I stated I have to look through a ton of magazines and articles I have that are packed in boxes. It's like finding a needle in a haystack and I'm not gonna spend all my time looking for this article. When I find it, I will post it.

Post it. And I'll admit I was wrong, if indeed there is confirmation. Until then, you're the only person that thinks it's true.

[jmaneyapanda]

Let me ask this too: why, if this was such an amazing advancement, is it only to be found in an old magazine, buried away? Why no internet references, or other literature (including the numerous books on angelfish)?

[Dejavu]

jaa1456, I believe that the article you provided is refering to Frank as said by many. Here is list of angels that Frank breed and raised http://www.rcthawaii.com/angel/6.htm.

If this has actually been done before Frank, than there would have been reference some where, if not here on RC, but somewhere else. I have yet to find anything.

[tcmfish]

So because it was done by someone else and before this site that means it didn't happen right? What did you say when you first heard of other fish being bred in Captivity? Did you say nope impossible as well? I'm not sure of the exact date this site started but I believe it was in the late 90's as in 98 or 99, so the guy who did breed them would have had almost a decade to do so. I mean most of the people in this hobby today have learned from mistakes and efforts made by poeple who had marine/reef tanks for years and years. I don't care what you say but you can not replace experience, no matter how much you read. Owning a reef tank for over 16 years now, I have experienced alot that othere members haven't and I was around when things were still infantile. And I really need to find those articles on that angel.

Dude, reef tanks and raising fish especially the ones in question, are like apples and oranges. Angels are freakin' hard to raise and that is why Frank and RCT are so well known, because he accomplished something not many people will. Now yellow tangs make angels look like a piece of cake, so to say those were captively raised as well is retarded.

If raising fish was as easy as keeping a reef tank don't you think more people would do it? Also if you could just learn from your mistakes that quickly, don't you think people would have done that?

If you culture food to feed larve, that food needs food, like live microalgae (which can crash) or dead microalgae paste, plus some foods are canabalistic, plus getting nauplii the right size that the larvae will eat them is difficult, plus the environment they were raised in, plus many more factors all come into play when raising fish. Some people (like Frank) collected prey for the larvae, so he didn't have to worry about culturing, so someone in the UK (and I don't want to say 100% sure, but I will say it that Peter didn't raise or sell any) landlocked would have a pretty hard time culturing the right prey let alone, raising the angels.

Also as Jeremy stated, word would have spread.

[velvetelvis]

What ever happened to the centropyge-breeding program at RCT, anyway? Was the operation just too unprofitable to continue?

[jmaneyapanda]

I have provided some material for you that clearly states they have been bred in captivity, while it leaves out a name and place it does confirm Captive Breed angels. You just don't know how to read I guess. And as I stated I have to look through a ton of magazines and articles I have that are packed in boxes. It's like finding a needle in a haystack and I'm not gonna spend all my time looking for this article. When I find it, I will post it.

For the record, I contacted Peter Schmiedel, and asked him specifically if he ever bred the Resplendens, and his response was, verbatim:


nope no breeding - although they did spawn. But at that time I did not even try.

I guess I better brush up on my "reading" skills.

[angelsil]

Got any comfirmation.

Nope. I was only sharing my experience with that LFS and *their* claim of it having been bred in captivity. The fish did fine in my tank and I really had no reason to pursue the matter further. I will say I never saw any other "CB Argis" there in the 2 or so years I lived in the area.

[melanotaenia]

Nope. I was only sharing my experience with that LFS and *their* claim of it having been bred in captivity. The fish did fine in my tank and I really had no reason to pursue the matter further. I will say I never saw any other "CB Argis" there in the 2 or so years I lived in the area.

Argi angels have been bred/reared in captivity. I remember reading a thread on these years ago from a guy at a university. Not on this site though. I will try to dig up the link.

And there are plenty of breeders out there that do not post on the Internet. It is true.

[jmaneyapanda]

Argi angels have been bred/reared in captivity. I remember reading a thread on these years ago from a guy at a university. Not on this site though. I will try to dig up the link.

And there are plenty of breeders out there that do not post on the Internet. It is true.

Are you talking spawned, or reared to notable (sellable) size? That is apples and oranges. The spawning is easy. Raising the fry is hard. As stated, acquiring the proper food source is a very difficult thing.

I dont discount that there are people who do not post on RC. But, for something like this, in a realistically global ground breaking situation, which would yield the source a reasonable profit, I dont see how it could remain such a secret. That person may not post, but someone would. Its just hard to believe it is such a secret that nobody knows or it has functionally published.

But, please do post the link.

[elegance coral]

Frank Baensch of RCT is well known in the hobby and the scientific communtiy as being the first to successfully spawn and raise angels in captivity in 2001 (not just by us here on RC). Is it possible that someone did it before him? Yes (minutely)... but there was nothing published on it as the scientific community would have known... and you are saying this was done before reefcentral existed which would be back into the 90s well before Frank.

Martin A. Moe, Jr started breeding marine fish in 1969. He was the first to commercially breed clownfish. He was also the first to breed Atlantic marine Angelfish. He had accomplished this feat by the time of the publishing of his first book in 1982. This information was published on the back of his book, The Marine Aquarium Handbook, Beginner to Breeder.

[velvetelvis]

IIRC, Martin Moe was also the first to breed yellow-headed jawfish (another fish I wish were still available CB). Maybe with the increased interest in sustainable reefkeeping (even if it's a relatively small portion of the hobby as a whole) we'll see more efforts to breed these animals again. I won't say I'd give my eyeteeth for a CB centropyge (especially from the argi complex) or jawfish, but I might be willing to part with a back molar. :p

[MrTuskfish]

We have a lfs that just got a vendor with tank raised:

tassled file
jordan's tusk
blue hippo tang (pacific)
yellow tang
kole tang
gold spotted rabbitfish
rainfordi goby
white sleeper goby
green chromis
talbots damsel
long spine cardinal

Now granted, they are quite a bit more expensive than WC.

Tank raised fish ARE WC; just caught at a small (or even tiny) size and raised to a larger size in captivity. If I buy a tankful of small wild-caught juvi yellow tangs, raise them and and sell them as adults; aren't they tank raised?

[tcmfish]

Martin A. Moe, Jr started breeding marine fish in 1969. He was the first to commercially breed clownfish. He was also the first to breed Atlantic marine Angelfish. He had accomplished this feat by the time of the publishing of his first book in 1982. This information was published on the back of his book, The Marine Aquarium Handbook, Beginner to Breeder.

Moe RAISED large angels. He didn't raise any Centropyge as far as I know. He even had gray and french hybrids, but I don't think they survived very long.

Edit: He did not spawn the adults though, he collected fish that were ready to spawn and then raised the larvae. Somewhat different than tank-bred or tank-raised IMO. Because if fish are tank-bred the adults bred in a tank and the babies were raised. The way tank-raised is being thrown around now, fish are just collected small and raised a little to a sellable size. He actually did raise angels through the larvae phase.

[jmaneyapanda]

Moe RAISED large angels. He didn't raise any Centropyge as far as I know. He even had gray and french hybrids, but I don't think they survived very long.

Edit: He did not spawn the adults though, he collected fish that were ready to spawn and then raised the larvae. Somewhat different than tank-bred or tank-raised IMO. Because if fish are tank-bred the adults bred in a tank and the babies were raised. The way tank-raised is being thrown around now, fish are just collected small and raised a little to a sellable size. He actually did raise angels through the larvae phase.

+1, and furthermore, this is well documented and published. Its not a "secret basement breeder" or only referenced in an old magazine. He did so with the massive benefit of access to natural microfauna to feed the larvae (being on coastal Florida). This is most my point. If such a trade changing event had occurred, why arent we flooded with information and praise?

To be honest, I hope I AM wrong, and this has changed- it would be a very exciting development. But I fear I am not.

[jmaneyapanda]

Tank raised fish ARE WC; just caught at a small (or even tiny) size and raised to a larger size in captivity. If I buy a tankful of small wild-caught juvi yellow tangs, raise them and and sell them as adults; aren't they tank raised?

Yes, but the implications are different, from an ecological view. Tank raised (as what many hatcheries and fisheries have done) is beneficial because it takes a burden off the established "grown" fish collection. Definitely the mature, breeder animals, but even small immature animals are far more "valuable" to the ecohabitat, than the uber small post larval fish. The tiny post larvals have ENORMOUS mortality. So, collection and growout of these fish impacts the natural ecosystems far less than even removing small adults, or even juveniles.

From a marketing or economic view, you are correct. Heck, I can hold a wild caught fish for 1 day, and say its tank grown or tank raised, and not be lying. Its semantics and integrity. And unfortunately, this trade is ripe with greed and dishonesty by some.

[velvetelvis]

It would be helpful if some industry guidelines were set to define what constitutes "captive-bred" (or "tank-bred") or "tank-raised", just as the "organic" label has to meet certain standards in food. I've seen these terms used almost interchangeably.

And as always, education is needed...I've actually asked LFS staff about CB or TR livestock, only to be met with a blank look--or in the case of one fairly crappy LFS, to be told, "Everything we have here is captive-bred" (as the employee gestured towards tanks full of tangs, triggerfish, and angels; needless to say, they've never gotten any of my money). That really p*ssed me off...if I know enough about marine aquaculture to asked for CB livstock, I'll probably have an idea of what's available CB and what's not--i.e., tangs, triggers, and angelfish! :uzi:

[elegance coral]

Moe RAISED large angels. He didn't raise any Centropyge as far as I know. He even had gray and french hybrids, but I don't think they survived very long.

Edit: He did not spawn the adults though, he collected fish that were ready to spawn and then raised the larvae. Somewhat different than tank-bred or tank-raised IMO. Because if fish are tank-bred the adults bred in a tank and the babies were raised. The way tank-raised is being thrown around now, fish are just collected small and raised a little to a sellable size. He actually did raise angels through the larvae phase.

Naturally, the parents were wild caught. How else was he to get them? Once in his system they spawned, they made whoopie, they mixed gametes, they bred. The breeding took place in captivity. In other words, the offspring were captive bred. He did not go out and collect larvae, or fertile eggs. He bred the fish in captivity then raised the offspring.

He did not breed pygmy angels. I didn't claim that he had. I was responding to the statement that Frank Baensch was the first to breed angels in captivity. He was not. Martin Moe was. Frank Baensch was the first to breed pygmy angels.

[copps]

Naturally, the parents were wild caught. How else was he to get them? Once in his system they spawned, they made whoopie, they mixed gametes, they bred. The breeding took place in captivity. In other words, the offspring were captive bred. He did not go out and collect larvae, or fertile eggs. He bred the fish in captivity then raised the offspring.

He did not breed pygmy angels. I didn't claim that he had. I was responding to the statement that Frank Baensch was the first to breed angels in captivity. He was not. Martin Moe was. Frank Baensch was the first to breed pygmy angels.

Martin Moe has done amazing things and contributed greatly to our hobby, but you are wrong in part. Martin's fish did not spawn in captivity... he strip spawned them and mixed the sperm and eggs together... Martin was the first to captively RAISE angelfish, but Frank was the first to captively spawn and raise angelfish. In order to have Pomacanthus paru and P. arcuatus spawn in captivity the system would need to be huge...

[tcmfish]

martin moe has done amazing things and contributed greatly to our hobby, but you are wrong in part. Martin's fish did not spawn in captivity... He strip spawned them and mixed the sperm and eggs together... Martin was the first to captively raise angelfish, but frank was the first to captively spawn and raise angelfish. In order to have pomacanthus paru and p. Arcuatus spawn in captivity the system would need to be huge...

+1

[TampaReefer79]

You guys really know your stuff. This is a very interesting read (to me) and thanks for everyone keeping their cool!

[MrTuskfish]

You guys really know your stuff. This is a very interesting read (to me) and thanks for everyone keeping their cool!
I don't know why ''strip spawning'' isn't more common; it may just be nearly impossible to get the fish together "at the right time". Plenty of booze may help. Strip spawning sure works with wild FW fish; like walleye & muskies.

[igot2gats]

Well, the future is now. It's been done:

http://************.com/2015/10/20/yellow-tangs-finally-captive-bred-oceanic-institute/

Apparently, the link won't paste over. But, go to RB's site.

[lespaul339]

post deleted

[SNAKEMANVET]

Never thought this would happen,but they did it.I don't know why that site would be banned,since they are contributing to the hobby by not takeing away from the wild population. Congrats to OI.

[WayneL333]

Great things are happening in our hobby!

Now let's talk about the hybrids :) purple x yellow?!? Gem x purple x yellow ?!?

[Pastey]

Introducing the world's first captive bred yellow tang! Stay tuned for more information on this incredible achievement! For now, just enjoy the yellow! Thanks to all the crew (Dean Kline, Emma Forbes, Aurora Burgess, Erin Pereira, Randall Scarborough, Renee Tousse & Blake Thompson) for making this a reality!!

https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpt1/v/t1.0-9/12122946_525995804245162_1716631334910226210_n.jpg?oh=e8b82d2fb3f623755e6f19c95c71f70a&oe=568F40BE

https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfl1/v/t1.0-9/12032271_525995810911828_5941065492584702686_n.jpg?oh=81ab0fafeb2938f177ec0c8186a47264&oe=5686F919

[Ruskin]

Amazing!