Why is some of my live rock turning white? [Archive]

eamike261

08/14/2010, 01:18 PM

In the last 2 days a lot of the rock has been turning white and I'm not sure. I googled it but nothing I found fit my situation.
10 gallon tank
T5 48w light - 8 hours per day (been doing this for 2 months so that is not why)
Percula clown
~5 hermit crabs
no skimmer
weekly WC of about 10-15% with Oceanic salt
no additives
non-modded AC50

Some rock turned white when I originally got my light and started using it (for 4 hours per day at first) but that went back to normal in about a week, and this was a couple months ago.

And only some of the rocks are doing it now, primarily in the higher flow area if that could possibly be doing anything...

Also, is this a serious problem?

olemiss reb

08/14/2010, 01:34 PM

My first thought is coraline dying. What is your calcium reading?

SpencerG

08/14/2010, 01:51 PM

It may be low alkalinity as well as calcium. Can you test your water?

eamike261

08/15/2010, 01:06 AM

I can pay a dollar per test at a LFS...but now that you mention it, we just added (maybe 5 or 6 days) a tiny (less than 1 inch) frag of a URS red planet, and a digita, not huge, all of its branches put together totaling maybe 5 inches or so.......I know SPS like more calcium, could those corals be taking a lot out of the water?

complete list of my corals:
pulsing xenia
~7 frags of zoas/palys
green star polyps
small/unhappy blasto (could this maybe be due to the lower calcium levels if that is whats going on?)
candy cane (2 heads)
frogspawn (1 head)
pink hammar (1 head)
green hammar (4 heads)
monti cap (2 inches)
red planet
digidata

eamike261

08/15/2010, 11:13 AM

And why would this only been happening on part of my tank if its low calcium? Is that possible?

eamike261

08/15/2010, 11:58 AM

alkalinity is above 200...calcium hardness looks like...0-10ppm ? i dont know where that should be

im not sure if calcium hardness is the same as calcium though...

jprince

08/15/2010, 12:03 PM

alkalinity is above 200...calcium hardness looks like...0-10ppm ? i dont know where that should be

You have that backwards, and you should really buy test kits and do it yourself. Some great info here. http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-05/rhf/index.php

Sounds like your parameters are way off.

eamike261

08/15/2010, 12:24 PM

nope, alkalinity is at least 200ppm and Calcium Hardness is definitely between 0 and 50ppm but it looks more like 0...the test was not made for SW fish tank, thats why i only know that alkalinity is above 200pm, and not the exact number

im starting to think that Calcium Hardness is different from Calcium

thats a nice link though, good information...for my sake i really hope that my calcium levels are not actually below 50, ill get them tested asap at a LFS to be sure

jprince

08/15/2010, 12:31 PM

nope, alkalinity is at least 200ppm and Calcium Hardness is definitely between 0 and 50ppm but it looks more like 0...the test was not made for SW fish tank, thats why i only know that alkalinity is above 200pm, and not the exact number

im starting to think that Calcium Hardness is different from Calcium

If the test was not made for salt water, then why on Earth would you be using it to test salt water? Take a few minutes to read the link in my last posts. Alkalinity is usually measured in milliequivalents per Liter (meq/L) and carbonate hardness is usually measured in degrees of carbonate (dKH).

eamike261

08/15/2010, 12:46 PM

the 2 alkalinity tests i've seen were measured in ppm, so i didn't know

i'm going to get it tested by a store anyway to find out exactly what the numbers are...but what could even cause the drastic drop in calcium if that is what is killing off the coraline algae? and why would that only happen to some of the rocks?

wegotcrabs

08/15/2010, 01:26 PM

Dont take this wrong way but you seem like you dont have enough experience to be caring for delicate sps corals. You should have the following home test kits. Cal, alk, mag, phosphates, and ph. Its easy to test and only takes a few minutes. I use salifert test kits and they run around $20 each. I still test weekly just to make sure everything is where it should be. Also when you start adding hard corals they eat up cal and alk. Thats why its important to dose.

eamike261

08/15/2010, 02:53 PM

I really just want to know what is wrong with the rocks, it would be very easy to remove those 2 corals if its necessary. If it is indeed low calcium, is it possible that it happened all of the sudden because of the 2 small SPS corals? Also, why could this only be happening on some of the rocks?

Does anybody on this forum have any suggestions or ideas?

shifty51008

08/15/2010, 03:06 PM

I really just want to know what is wrong with the rocks

thats what everyone is tring to help you with, but they can't help much if you can't give them the water parameters that they need.

I also suggest picking up your own test kits especally if your going to be doing SPS corals. API test kits are cheap and work very well.

eamike261

08/15/2010, 03:16 PM

Not true shifty. And its not the SPS corals I'm worried about, its the rest of my tank that I'm concerned with, and I am going to get the params checked ASAP and I'll report back to you guys when I know. But no I do not plan to keep SPS, the digidata was free, monti cap was free, and the URS red planet was 5$. I can get rid of them if that is what is causing the problem. I did not know that they could suck so much calcium out of your water than your LR starts to die. But if that is the case, WHY would that only happen on some of the rocks? Does anyone have any idea? None of the rocks on the right half of the tank have any whitened spots, whereas a few on the left said have changed dramatically.

Thanks for the suggestion on the cheaper test kit though, if I wanted to go in an SPS direction I'd definitely go for that.

EDIT: Sorry just realized I never listed the params that I do know for sure:
Nitrite/Nitrate/Ammonia 0ppm
pH 8.1-8.3
Temp 78

betamed

08/15/2010, 03:27 PM

The SPS coral frags your using probably are not using up a significant amount of CA or ALK. However, coraline algae, snails, LPS all use these too. Add to that the fact that most salt mixes are low in CA and Alk and it really becomes essential to check these parameters on a regular basis. AS far as the advice your getting its all from experience. I know when something does not look right in my tank the first thing I do is check the Alk. Conversel,y when I stay on top of the ALK and CA numbers the rock and All corals color up.

fastpcuser

08/15/2010, 04:37 PM

Alk Should be around 8-10DKH and Calcium 400 - 450ppm if you want to keep SPS ..:) IMO

eamike261

08/15/2010, 10:08 PM

Chris27

08/16/2010, 09:02 AM

If your alkalinity test is indicating 200 ppm, that is essentially 4 meq/L or 11 dKH, which is about the average that most folks keep their tanks at. An alkalinity test will be good for both FW and SW, as you are basically just measuring carbonate which will be in both FW and SW. Additionally, your calcium harness test is not accurate for these purposes, the test results you indicate are basically impossible to obtain in a SW tank, for comparative purposes, very soft tap water will be in the 0-10 ppm range - natural sea water is around 410 ppm.

Assuming that the alkalinity test is reasonably accurate and factoring in your salt mix and water change schedule, one can almost assume that your calcium and magnesium will test out just fine.

How large of an area is the coraline turning white? Did you recently change light bulbs or are they about ready for a change? When you got the new corals, did you do some aquascaping perhaps uncovering a section of your rock that didn't always have light on it? You don't by chance have a small urchin in there do you? Sometimes coraline grows well in low flow areas, but sometimes is grows well in high flow areas, it's hard to say, maybe you could move the affected rock to a different part of your tank and see if it makes a difference.

elijaher

08/16/2010, 10:26 AM

Did you had coralline algea before the rock turn white? If so what color did you had?

gweston

08/16/2010, 04:13 PM

Likely coraline algae die-off causing the rock to go white. Test the water params. Do some water changes with quality salt water over a few days.. will help nudge parameters towards where they should be. Supplement as required.

Alk 8-10dkh
Calcium ~420-450ppm
Magnesium ~1350ppm

Don't make any large parameter changes.. do it in stages or bad things can happen. I wouldn't worry so much about the coraline. It will come back fine. I'd worry about your parameters being off and potentially causing something worse to happen.

moze229

08/16/2010, 06:35 PM

I don't want to keep SPS if its going to use up enough calcium or alkalinity that the water needs to be dosed. We have Oceanic salt which I've heard is all you need (with weekly WC of 15%).

This still doesn't explain why only the left half of thank is having the issue...

You will ALWAYS have to dose with anything other than just fish, even just live rock. There is NO salt that continually raises the levels of Cal, Alk, and Mag. to the appropriate levels with water changes alone, I don't care how much of any one element they claim to have. There are salts that have higher concentrations, but to me the price doesn't justify the potential benefit but that's a debate for another thread. You might be able to go for a while, but eventually you will have to dose something.

Matt

tynman

08/16/2010, 06:40 PM

Fishamatank

08/16/2010, 07:07 PM

It's not just the SPS, you have quite a few hard corals. You can ditch the SPS, but you are still going to have to dose that tank. Hammers, frogspawn, blasto, monti, candy canes all require Alk & Ca in the same ratios as SPS, just not quite as much.

eamike261

08/16/2010, 07:28 PM

Sorry I couldn't get on here for a day or so, I should be able to get the water tested tomorrow.

I'm not disagreeing but I know of others in the nano forums with tanks our size that never dose anything. So perhaps its not necessary? The frogspawn, hammar, and blasto are all 1 head (except for a small 4 head hammar), and the candy cane is 2 heads, you think those alone would need to be dosed for?

The odd thing just that it happened so fast, literally over 1 night. That's why it was worrying me.

An alkalinity test will be good for both FW and SW, as you are basically just measuring carbonate which will be in both FW and SW.
THANK YOU! Thats what I thought but I wasn't sure...

How large of an area is the coraline turning white? Did you recently change light bulbs or are they about ready for a change? When you got the new corals, did you do some aquascaping perhaps uncovering a section of your rock that didn't always have light on it? You don't by chance have a small urchin in there do you? Sometimes coraline grows well in low flow areas, but sometimes is grows well in high flow areas, it's hard to say, maybe you could move the affected rock to a different part of your tank and see if it makes a difference.

The bulbs have not, and do not need to be changed yet. 3 rocks have turned pretty white on the topside. Nope rocks were not moved. Yes we have a small urchin, I had considered that he could be doing something but he's been in there since we got the LR in the first place, 2 or 3 months ago. We'll be breaking down the tank and moving it in a week to a dorm room.

Did you had coralline algea before the rock turn white? If so what color did you had?
I don't know, it was mostly just a dirty brownish color, certainly not purple which I thought coraline algae was colored.

it does sound like you dont want the sps no matter what everyone is telling you and your looking for a reason to take them out so I can only suggest give them away to someone that wants them.. But it might be to late to save them thats why Im not telling you to sell them unless you want to get rid of a friend that you sell them to.. Well good luck and this is only my suggestions you do what you want to do, we are all here just trying to help each other out...
I like the SPS and I don't want to get rid of them but I would have been willing to if it was causing issues. They are doing great, the Red Planet sprouts more and more each day.

m_wonnacott

08/16/2010, 07:47 PM

ok so from reading everything that has been said it sounds like after your last post that it wasn't coraline algae that has died off but likely your basic brown aglae (diatomus algae if i recall correct, its late) Which would make sence if the tank was set-up about three months ago your prob just getting past that stage of a newer tank. You will likly then start to see some growth of coraline algae in the next while.

eamike261

08/16/2010, 07:57 PM

Wait this is supposed to happen...?

m_wonnacott

08/16/2010, 08:03 PM

If the algae you described as being brownish was diatomus algae and not coraline algae like you thought it was then yes...Its normal for a new tank to develope aglae that stays for a short while (for most) and then sudenly goes away

kahkaw

08/16/2010, 09:36 PM

---

Chris27

08/17/2010, 06:52 AM

Cause the numbers your coming up with just dont make any kind of cents!!!!

The numbers do make sense, broaden your horizons a bit when it comes to an alk measurement, ppm can easily be converted to dKH or meq/l....figure it this way, if it wasn't for the chemistry this hobby would be cake! :) The Calcium test is off, but given that it's for freshwater it may be designed to read in the low range - vice the 300 - 600 that we use for our Reefs.

You will ALWAYS have to dose with anything other than just fish, even just live rock. There is NO salt that continually raises the levels of Cal, Alk, and Mag. to the appropriate levels with water changes alone, I don't care how much of any one element they claim to have. There are salts that have higher concentrations, but to me the price doesn't justify the potential benefit but that's a debate for another thread. You might be able to go for a while, but eventually you will have to dose something.

Matt

This is not entirely true, and impossible to determine without some test data. More times then not, a low calcium demand tank will be fine with small frequent water changes. Oceanic salt when compared to most other mixes, is very high in calcium, alk and mag, so there is a good chance that the OP's tank is just fine when it comes to the big three (Ca, Mg, Alk). As far as cost goes, aside from Tropic Marin or D-D H2Ocean, most all salt mixes are within a few bucks of each other - personal preference or LFS availability is really what most base their selection on anyhow.

OP -

It seems the mystery may have been solved, with a powerhead blowing the "dirt" off the rock, you would basically uncover some white rock.

Additionally, urchins are great scavengers, but they are also great at cleaning coraline off of a rock, it grows quick enough that it's not a problem, but it could also be another cause of the white.

Next step, get yourself some new calcium and mag tests, and start to get an idea of your chemistry, from there the sky is the limit! Good Luck.

moze229

08/17/2010, 08:25 AM

This is not entirely true, and impossible to determine without some test data. More times then not, a low calcium demand tank will be fine with small frequent water changes. Oceanic salt when compared to most other mixes, is very high in calcium, alk and mag, so there is a good chance that the OP's tank is just fine when it comes to the big three (Ca, Mg, Alk). As far as cost goes, aside from Tropic Marin or D-D H2Ocean, most all salt mixes are within a few bucks of each other - personal preference or LFS availability is really what most base their selection on anyhow.

It's very true, and no test data is needed. Think about it. If elements are being used up, by doing a water changes you are only adding back the concentration of these elements that are in the salt - not what is being used by the tank. The elements in the salt mix are static, but what is being used by the tank is not. Over time, in every case, this will lead to a deficit in needed elements.

When you do a water change, you are removing water that is depleted of elements. Maybe not entirely depleted, but depleted nonetheless. You then add back new water at full concentration of the salt mix. Sounds good, but remember the water you just removed to do the water change is the same water that's still in the tank - in a slightly depleted state. So you have re-concentrated the elements some, but not back to the same level that they would be if you had done 100% water change. This is what dosing attempts to correct.

I do agree that calcium and magnesium in a low demand tank will last a long time with 'good' salt and water changes. Good luck with alk though. Frequent water changes will slow the inevitable, but you will always have to dose eventually. Even with just one snail.

sslak

08/17/2010, 08:41 AM

You will ALWAYS have to dose with anything other than just fish, even just live rock. There is NO salt that continually raises the levels of Cal, Alk, and Mag. to the appropriate levels with water changes alone, I don't care how much of any one element they claim to have. There are salts that have higher concentrations, but to me the price doesn't justify the potential benefit but that's a debate for another thread. You might be able to go for a while, but eventually you will have to dose something.

Matt

This is not true for a 10g tank. You can easily sustain softies/LPS/and even a few SPS without dosing anything if you do frequent water changes. In a 10g tank you can safely and easily do a 4-5g w/c every week. You will be replacing the water faster than the corals can use up the Ca/Alk/Mg. With a 5g change every week you are replacing 200% of the total system volume every month. The amount being depleted is negligable.

I ran a Biocube 14g for 4+ years with zoas/softies and a moti cap. and never had to dose anything. I did weekly 5 gal water changes with Reef Crystals.

bassplaya12

08/17/2010, 02:39 PM

eamike if you dont test your water and find the right numbers nothing is going to live to long in your tank!!!! The 3 little frags wouldnt make that much of a diffrence but if you dont know what you had before you put them in you cant blame them for the drop.. your rock wouldnt turn white over night from you putting a few frags in.. I would suggest getting the salifert alk/dKH, cal, Ph, and mag test kits to get the right numbers. Cause the numbers your coming up with just dont make any kind of cents!!!! What kind of lighting are you using for the sps that you do have in the tank? cause that will kill the coral too.. it does sound like you dont want the sps no matter what everyone is telling you and your looking for a reason to take them out so I can only suggest give them away to someone that wants them.. But it might be to late to save them thats why Im not telling you to sell them unless you want to get rid of a friend that you sell them to.. Well good luck and this is only my suggestions you do what you want to do, we are all here just trying to help each other out...

We test the water weekly minimum. Just not for calcium etc because many people said it wouldn't really be necessary with our setup. The light is a 48w T5 HO.
Why does everyone always jump to conclusions? We're not looking for a reason to get rid of the SPS we have, we wouldn't have bought them in the first place if we didn't want it :rolleyes:. However, if they are causing our tank to go south, we wouldn't want to keep them. Does that not make sense?

This is not true for a 10g tank. You can easily sustain softies/LPS/and even a few SPS without dosing anything if you do frequent water changes. In a 10g tank you can safely and easily do a 4-5g w/c every week. You will be replacing the water faster than the corals can use up the Ca/Alk/Mg. With a 5g change every week you are replacing 200% of the total system volume every month. The amount being depleted is negligable.

I ran a Biocube 14g for 4+ years with zoas/softies and a moti cap. and never had to dose anything. I did weekly 5 gal water changes with Reef Crystals.

That's what we understood. We're actually switching to a BC14 when we move the tank. You never had any issue with keeping the monti cap alive under powercompact??

Mike,
Which rock is turning white? We did have coralline. Especially the big rock but alot of the smaller ones had some.

eamike261

08/17/2010, 07:00 PM

Mike,
Which rock is turning white? We did have coralline. Especially the big rock but alot of the smaller ones had some.

Just the 3 on the left side, not the large rock or anything to the right of it. There was never any purple on the left rocks, except for a few small spots. The big 1 is practically all purple but that 1 is fine.

locust

08/17/2010, 09:42 PM

You will ALWAYS have to dose with anything other than just fish, even just live rock. There is NO salt that continually raises the levels of Cal, Alk, and Mag. to the appropriate levels with water changes alone, I don't care how much of any one element they claim to have. There are salts that have higher concentrations, but to me the price doesn't justify the potential benefit but that's a debate for another thread. You might be able to go for a while, but eventually you will have to dose something.

Matt

Rubbish. However you will certainly need to dose if you plan to hang on to all this stuff. To me it sounds like you are not too fazed about losing the corals. If that is the case, i would get rid of the corals and go with a fowlr setup. You won't need to worry about dosing or regimented lighting periods. It will be a much more hassle free system, which appears to be your go.

eamike261

08/18/2010, 01:41 AM

Rubbish. However you will certainly need to dose if you plan to hang on to all this stuff. To me it sounds like you are not too fazed about losing the corals. If that is the case, i would get rid of the corals and go with a fowlr setup. You won't need to worry about dosing or regimented lighting periods. It will be a much more hassle free system, which appears to be your go.

No no no, a millions times NO! Why does it happen so often on this forum that people take random leaps to radical conclusions? We do NOT want to get rid of our corals, we do NOT wants our corals to die off....

IF the particular corals we had in our tank, being SPS, were causing PROBLEMS, then we'd be more than willing to sell or give them away. We're not stupid so don't treat us like we are, we're looking for help and advice, not directions.

If you (not directed at you Locust) do not want to be helpful then don't respond! We're looking for people who CARE, that are not trying to offer random/easy solutions that do not have much merit to the situation.

It is also pretty proven in the nano forums that you would probably NOT need to dose for this type of setup, perhaps requiring us to get rid of the couple SPS, but that seems to be against popular belief. The SPS are what we are not concerned with, some of the people on this forum had an annoying ability to find things between the lines that were never there.

I really appreciate the advice and information that we've gotten, it helped to understand the issue a lot. It seems that our problem is solved, I did not know that this was common or supposed to happen.

bassplaya12

08/18/2010, 08:15 AM

No no no, a millions times NO! Why does it happen so often on this forum that people take random leaps to radical conclusions? We do NOT want to get rid of our corals, we do NOT wants our corals to die off....

IF the particular corals we had in our tank, being SPS, were causing PROBLEMS, then we'd be more than willing to sell or give them away. We're not stupid so don't treat us like we are, we're looking for help and advice, not directions.

If you (not directed at you Locust) do not want to be helpful then don't respond! We're looking for people who CARE, that are not trying to offer random/easy solutions that do not have much merit to the situation.

It is also pretty proven in the nano forums that you would probably NOT need to dose for this type of setup, perhaps requiring us to get rid of the couple SPS, but that seems to be against popular belief. The SPS are what we are not concerned with, some of the people on this forum had an annoying ability to find things between the lines that were never there.

I really appreciate the advice and information that we've gotten, it helped to understand the issue a lot. It seems that our problem is solved, I did not know that this was common or supposed to happen.

+1 i don't know where some of you get these ideas from.

also mike, the rocks on the left were mostly a greenish color so it could be the algae dieoff that one of the actually helpful people stated

eamike261

08/18/2010, 03:12 PM

Alright...Alkalinity is 7.2 dkh, and calcium is off the charts high, over 500ppm. The guys at the store said that calcium is probably high as a result of the Alk being a little off. And from hearing what you guys say about Alk causing weird problems that sounds about right. He suggested doing more like 50% weekly WC instead of 10-20% so maybe that will help? Either way, I'm not too concerned.

By the way, some of the white spots that were completely white, like toothpaste, have started becoming a little purple in a spots. So it looks like everything is alright, for now at least haha.

bassplaya12

08/18/2010, 06:14 PM

Good to hear

locust

08/18/2010, 07:25 PM

No no no, a millions times NO! Why does it happen so often on this forum that people take random leaps to radical conclusions? We do NOT want to get rid of our corals, we do NOT wants our corals to die off....

IF the particular corals we had in our tank, being SPS, were causing PROBLEMS, then we'd be more than willing to sell or give them away. We're not stupid so don't treat us like we are, we're looking for help and advice, not directions.

If you (not directed at you Locust) do not want to be helpful then don't respond! We're looking for people who CARE, that are not trying to offer random/easy solutions that do not have much merit to the situation.

It is also pretty proven in the nano forums that you would probably NOT need to dose for this type of setup, perhaps requiring us to get rid of the couple SPS, but that seems to be against popular belief. The SPS are what we are not concerned with, some of the people on this forum had an annoying ability to find things between the lines that were never there.

I really appreciate the advice and information that we've gotten, it helped to understand the issue a lot. It seems that our problem is solved, I did not know that this was common or supposed to happen.

Whatever, but if you are such a noob that you don't even know what a calcium reading is supposed to be, and you don't even know what happens when you begin to cycle a new tank, maybe you should have posted this in the "new to the hobby" section. Or at least done some kind of research on what you are doing.

bassplaya12

08/18/2010, 11:41 PM

Congratulations on further proving his point. Wow...

Whatever, but if you are such a noob that you don't even know what a calcium reading is supposed to be, and you don't even know what happens when you begin to cycle a new tank, maybe you should have posted this in the "new to the hobby" section. Or at least done some kind of research on what you are doing.

eamike261

08/19/2010, 10:17 AM

Whatever, but if you are such a noob that you don't even know what a calcium reading is supposed to be, and you don't even know what happens when you begin to cycle a new tank, maybe you should have posted this in the "new to the hobby" section. Or at least done some kind of research on what you are doing.

Maybe you should be less of rude, arrogant person...and what are you talking about with cycling and new tanks? Start a post asking what cycling entails, the answer is going to be about ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate...not brown algae dying off in several months to allow coraline to grow in its place.