purple tang and blueline trigger... feedback?

[BloBBeBo]

Can these 2 belligerent fish be housed together if I introduce the purple tang first, and they are both juveniles? Thanks in advance. :)

[Stuart60611]

I think these are ideal tankmates in the right sized system. I find when dealing with beligerent fish, you need to match them with fish of the same temperment. The problem I see is being able to add anyone else. In that regard, definitely take some thought with this system to plan out your stocking and stocking order in its entirety b/c if you do not do so you may not be able to get the fish in the system you desire.

[BloBBeBo]

At first I was planning to get a picasso trigger by himself in a 40 B, but then I came across a 125 on craigslist. I would like to do an aggressive FOWLR, maybe a snowflake moray, purple tang, and blue line trigger. I would love a picasso or undulated trigger but I'm not sure of the compatability with the blue line.

[Stuart60611]

Would not do any other fish witn the blueline, snowflake, and purple tang. I think the blueline will get too large for a 125 in the long run, and could go postal in these small quarters with tankmates.

[BloBBeBo]

I will probably just end up sticking to the purple tang and blue line, I like the minimal fish idea.

[Stuart60611]

That is a good idea because I definitely think that these two guys will hold their own against each other. The snowflake, however, easily could be target if you get the blueline large enough, and the reverse is true if you get the blueline smaller. Eventually, the blue line may outgrow the tank. If it were me, I woudl buy both fish on the smaller side to watch them grow up and hopefully stay more in line with the system's size.

[BloBBeBo]

The blue line will be on the small side to start out with, he is about 3 inches right now. I will need to order the purple tang though, should I try to get a real little one like a 1 incher, or bigger? I'm not sure if I should add the tang first, or both at once?

[Stuart60611]

The blue line will be on the small side to start out with, he is about 3 inches right now. I will need to order the purple tang though, should I try to get a real little one like a 1 incher, or bigger? I'm not sure if I should add the tang first, or both at once?


If you have quarantine space, then in a perfect world add them together. However, if adding them seperate, I would get the tang a bit smaller 1-2 inches and let him establish himself alone in the display first. Once established, I would then add the bigger 3 inch blueline to the display who will have no problem handeling initial aggression which will be shown from the smaller territorial tang. This way they should adjust to each other well, and the blueline being bigger but being introduced after the tang should not gain too much of an upper hand.

[BloBBeBo]

Well, this tank will have no fish in it. Cycled with LR and snails. Is it still unsafe to add them both together that way?

[Stuart60611]

You need to at least quarantine and many believe, including me, treat the fish before adding them to the display. Otherwise, the chances are pretty good you will have parasite problems -- likely ich and/or flukes. After dealing with ich in the display, do yourself a favor and at least quarantine if not outright profolatically treat. When your fish are sick with the parasites in your display, it will be a much bigger pain to deal with as I am now doing then it is to do as I suggest. Tangs in particular are known for often carying the ich parasite.

[BloBBeBo]

How do you feel about freshwater dips for preventative measures? Or is a QT just a better way in general?

[Stuart60611]

Freshwater dip alone is pretty much useless as a substitute for quarantine. Quarantine is a must if you want to avoid introducnig a parasite. I feel that if you are going through the pain of quarantinig you might as well treat which will shorten the quarantine and assure no parasites get introduced in the display.

What I try to do is get fish eating in quarantine. Then put the fish through 3 weeks of cupramine and 1 week of combined prazipro and cupramine during 3rd week of cupramine. Should be accomplished in most cases in less than 4 weeks.

[viggen]

I haven't QT'd the last 2 fish I purchased, a hawian/black durgeon trigger & a sohal tang both purchased at different shops.

Ended up BOTH had flukes..... (they looked clean when I purchased them) I purchased them several months apart so my tank went through 2 treatments, lost my emperor angel & queen angel in the proces...... Being FO it's easier to treat but I will QT everything I get now.

If it was me & I wanted those fish I would get a large purple & a small trigger. They both have attitudes but the purple tang doesn't have teeth. In time when the trigger outgrows the the purple I would rather have a lg purple then a small/medium one. Several years ago I had yellow tangs (5) in with a queen trigger (plus a eel & other tankmates) who started out with zero attitude. He slowly ate the yellow tangs...... when I was down to 2 yellow's I was finally able to put the trigger in it's own tank. The blueline's/fuscus can get a big attitude.... & in a 125g I would worry in a year or so that the purple will become a expensive meal.

[BloBBeBo]

So probably definately want to add the purple first. Cause I want a tang, and the purple seems to be the most aggressive one. The blueline at my store is very people-shy right now, but he's got good color and no *visible* parasites. Like I said I will have to order the purple tang, I have a choice between a 1 inch, 2 inch, or 3 incher. I would love to have both fish but it is almost looking like I shouldn't.

I want a trigger for sure, the purple tang was just a whim from my husband really wanting a tang, and the purple being the most aggressive one I can find (and most expensive HAH figures).

He doesn't really want just 2 fish, he says its a "waste of a 125g" but I disagree. I just don't want to do reef. I want FO, and I've always been fond of predatory tanks. Decisions, decisions... :sad1:

[Stuart60611]

So probably definately want to add the purple first. Cause I want a tang, and the purple seems to be the most aggressive one. The blueline at my store is very people-shy right now, but he's got good color and no *visible* parasites. Like I said I will have to order the purple tang, I have a choice between a 1 inch, 2 inch, or 3 incher. I would love to have both fish but it is almost looking like I shouldn't.

I want a trigger for sure, the purple tang was just a whim from my husband really wanting a tang, and the purple being the most aggressive one I can find (and most expensive HAH figures).

He doesn't really want just 2 fish, he says its a "waste of a 125g" but I disagree. I just don't want to do reef. I want FO, and I've always been fond of predatory tanks. Decisions, decisions... :sad1:

There are some real good choices available for this sized system which would satisfy both of your and your husband's desires. Some fish to consider include an Indian, saragassum, blue throat, or several of the sulfman genus triggers which are sized and of a good temperment for this system size. An Australian or Indian Ocean tusk, smaller of the thassoloma wrasses, such as a bluehead, pinkface, or paddlefin wrasse, cuban or lyretail hogfish, kole, tomi or convict tang, one spot foxface, dogface puffer (any color variant), any dwarf angel, and many hawkfish (some get too aggressive) to name a few. IME all of these usually work well in an aggressive community setting. Depending on what you choose, you can also throw in some smaller fish to add interest and help eat the leftovers, such as some damsels, clowns, toby puffers, and even dotybacks.

If you really want a trigger that looks and acts like many of your more aggressive triggers but does not get real large or too aggressive, I cannot speak more highly of my experience with the Indian triggerfish. Perfect community trigger imo because he stays small and does not get too aggressive but still looks and acts in terms of general behavior like many of your more aggressive triggers. Saragassums and bluethroats make great community fish, but for me do not have as interesting trigger-like behavior as do some from other genuses.

[viggen]

I do agree, 2 fish in a 125g to me would also be boring, especially when 1 of those fish is a trigger which many times do not swim around all day. Some triggers are more active then other just like some have more of a attitude then others. I prefer the more active/less agressive triggers even though I have always wanted a blueline & a queen & a clown, I just do not have the room for another big tank.

I also am also a FO person & you could easily add several tangs & other fish in there w/o issues.

Blue hep tang, yellow/purple/scopas, powder blue/achilles/powder brown, naso

Most angels would outgrow your tank in a few years & if you plan on going with a larger tank you could add a smal angel.

Or like mentioned above the dwarf angels, flame angels look really cool

Hawk fish have some of the best personalities in the hobby, my favorite is the flame. Very fun to watch & many times they will interact with people like puffers do.

Speaking of puffers my issue with the majority of them is they can get well over a foot long in a year or so. Local store had a mappa puffer (I tried him in my old 260g but he was getting picked on to much) who was 6 ish inches. Within a few months he was closer to 10in & as he was going for food he bit the jaw off of a xxl/show blue angel (looked as good as any queen angel) & to me just get to big. Spiny box puffers stay under a foot & have a great personality........

Predator tanks are cool but to me it limits many of the more colorfull & enjoyable fish from the tank. Groupers just get way to big

[BloBBeBo]

I am reading "Marine Fishes" by Scott W. Michael that I borrowed from my work. I cant find the tomi tang anywhere in there. I did however find some of the other fishes you mentioned. I really like the lyretail hogfish and pinkface wrasse.

I am really wanting to get a plan going here of exactly what fish I want, and which order to add them. I figure going about it that way will make my life MUCH easier lol.

[Stuart60611]

Tomi Tang:


http://www.bluezooaquatics.com/productDetail.asp?did=1&pid=872&cid=287

This website has a link for every single fish I mentioned, except my favorite Indian triggerfish. Yes, planing is definitely the way to go and will save you countless headaches.

[BloBBeBo]

I was worried about adding more than 1 tang. I know they need a lot of room, and I don't want the tang police on my butt! (heheee) I kind of like the idea of a semi-aggressive community tank. It sure would make both me and my hubby happy.

[BloBBeBo]

I have an extra 20L that I just cleaned up, will that do as a QT?

[Stuart60611]

That is what I use. Really kind of small, but will do as long as you buy your fish small which I suggest is better anyway so that you can watch them grow up. Make sure you mature your biological filter well for the quarantine and only quarantine 1 or 2 at a time b/c you could otherwise have ammonia problems. A 125 is really only adequate for some of the smaller tangs, and I agree not a good idea to have more than one in this sized system, particularly if you are trying to have a community setting.

[BloBBeBo]

I will probably only be buying 1 fish at a time, my big concern now is just figuring out what fish I want. I am thinking least aggressive first. Maybe a convict tang? they are really cute..... :)

[Stuart60611]

I agree one fish at a time and least aggressive to most aggressive. Well, you seem interested in pretty much the exact tank I currently have. However, I tend to overstock so I will make suggestions a little on the lighter side, but pretty much in line with my system.
-
1) Trigger -Indian, saragassum, blue throat, or one from the sulfman genus

2) Dogface puffer - Mark my words he/she will be both your and your husband's favorite fish. A bunch of color variants to choose from, and the most personable fish I have experienced to date.

3) Convict, Kole, Tomi Tang, One Spot Foxface

4) Wrasse - Pinkface wrasse, tusk, bluehead, paddlefin, lyretail or cuban hogfish

5) Tobi Puffer - Blue dot, Hawiian, Lepard

5) Flame Hawk

6) Yellowtail damsel

[BloBBeBo]

Is that in any particular order?.. :P

I know for a fact I can order a dogface puffer from my work, I have had them there before and they are lovely fish. My husband also was begging me for a puffer <.<

I don't want damselfish >.< Of any kind,, not even clowns.

There was a Kole Tang at my store that had head-and-lateral-line-disease. He healed, but he never got rid of the scar :( Someone adopted him, though. I would like a convict tang, and maybe a hippo tang. I definately want the indian trigger after reading about him. :)

THere's just too many beautiful amazing fish out there:)



I agree one fish at a time and least aggressive to most aggressive. Well, you seem interested in pretty much the exact tank I currently have. However, I tend to overstock so I will make suggestions a little on the lighter side, but pretty much in line with my system.
-
1) Trigger -Indian, saragassum, blue throat, or one from the sulfman genus

2) Dogface puffer - Mark my words he/she will be both your and your husband's favorite fish. A bunch of color variants to choose from, and the most personable fish I have experienced to date.

3) Convict, Kole, Tomi Tang, One Spot Foxface

4) Wrasse - Pinkface wrasse, tusk, bluehead, paddlefin, lyretail or cuban hogfish

5) Tobi Puffer - Blue dot, Hawiian, Lepard

5) Flame Hawk

6) Yellowtail damsel

[Stuart60611]

No, I did not suggest them in that order. I would introduce the damsel, hawkfish, toby puffer first. Thereafter, things may very depending upon your actual selections. A hippo tang is not a good choice here. They get way too large. Otherwise, your other other considerations are good potential choices. Any thassoloma wrasse should be the last fish introduced.

[BloBBeBo]

1. convict tang
2. harlequin tuskfish, lyretail hogfish?
3. flame hawk!
4. dogface puffer
5. indian trigger or blue throat?

Those are my favorites thus far.

[Stuart60611]

1. convict tang
2. harlequin tuskfish, lyretail hogfish?
3. flame hawk!
4. dogface puffer
5. indian trigger or blue throat?

Those are my favorites thus far.

That would work real well!

[barbianj]

1. convict tang
2. harlequin tuskfish, lyretail hogfish?
3. flame hawk!
4. dogface puffer
5. indian trigger or blue throat?

Those are my favorites thus far.

That's a much better list than the first. If you get those fish small, they would go a long time in a 125.

With the first list, you started with two extremely aggressive fish of their types. Just those two fish alone would guarantee the need for a bigger tank down the road. BTW, NEVER let a Blueline be the alpha fish. They are NOT good leaders!

[viggen]

To me the dogface puffers (& all the other puffers of that type) get to big. They can get well over a foot long. Great personalities but I think there are better puffers to look at.

Wouldn't the puffers go after the hawk?

[BloBBeBo]

What other puffer would you suggest? I was looking at tobies.

To me the dogface puffers (& all the other puffers of that type) get to big. They can get well over a foot long. Great personalities but I think there are better puffers to look at.

Wouldn't the puffers go after the hawk?

[Stuart60611]

Dogface puffers are fine for a 125. They almost never get to be a foot in tanks and generally stay between 8-10 inches max. The puffers like an anthron, mappa, porucpine, or some of the other larger species exceed a 1 foot. A dogface will be fine with a flame hawk, and I have my dogface now with a flame hawk for over 1 year. Dogfaces are not like porcupines or mappa puffers and are much more passive in disposition. I have never seen my dogface puffer bother any other fish. Moreover, I have never heard of anyone else's dogface puffer bothering other fish, including a toby puffer, flame hawk, and tiny yellow tail damsel (the damsel actually takes an occassional shot at the dogface, and the dogface being many times larger just shrugs it off without any retaliation). They are very mellow in disposition.

[BloBBeBo]

That's kind of what I was thinking but I am no expert so I am always open to advice! I am really liking my new fish-list, hopefully it wont end up being too much for my tank.

I'm going to try and do a real limited rock scape with a couple caves, and put most of my LR down in the sump so they can all have lots of swimming room. :]

edit: of course I will be keeping nori on clips for the tangs and whoever else wants a nibble :3

[Stuart60611]

That's kind of what I was thinking but I am no expert so I am always open to advice! I am really liking my new fish-list, hopefully it wont end up being too much for my tank.

I'm going to try and do a real limited rock scape with a couple caves, and put most of my LR down in the sump so they can all have lots of swimming room. :]

edit: of course I will be keeping nori on clips for the tangs and whoever else wants a nibble :3

Watch how limited you keep your rock scape in the display. Your tangs are going to need a decent amount of rock to peck at to stay healthy. Moreover, you need to create with rock a series of little areas that each fish can call home and so as to break line of sight between fish. Aquascapting is particularlly challenging in a 125 because you have very limited depth. What I did was create a series of ledges and caves that are very narrow running down the entire back wall. This provided the shelter and rock for tangs to peck at while leaving the front of the tank open swimming room.

Below is an old thread of my tank to give you some ideas. I have since lost my saragassum who got electricuted from a short in a powerhead. I have replaced him with an Indian Trigger. Otherwise, everything pretty much is the same.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1756144&highlight=updated+pics

[BloBBeBo]

Well, I was a little concerned about building my aquascape against the back of the tank because of not being able to reach down and clean there, but I can get over that. I've got to remember I will be having tangs so my tank should not get overrun by hair algae like my 29 was years ago :P

That and THIS time I am going to invest in a Python. I use it at my store and I LOVE IT. It will make draining the tank so much easier.

Btw, when I do water changes, if I have a 125 display and a 55 sump, how much should I take out? I am planning on having a container with pre-mixed salt aerating for each change.

Watch how limited you keep your rock scape in the display. Your tangs are going to need a decent amount of rock to peck at to stay healthy. Moreover, you need to create with rock a series of little areas that each fish can call home and so as to break line of sight between fish. Aquascapting is particularlly challenging in a 125 because you have very limited depth. What I did was create a series of ledges and caves that are very narrow running down the entire back wall. This provided the shelter and rock for tangs to peck at while leaving the front of the tank open swimming room.

[Stuart60611]

Well, I was a little concerned about building my aquascape against the back of the tank because of not being able to reach down and clean there, but I can get over that. I've got to remember I will be having tangs so my tank should not get overrun by hair algae like my 29 was years ago :P

That and THIS time I am going to invest in a Python. I use it at my store and I LOVE IT. It will make draining the tank so much easier.

Btw, when I do water changes, if I have a 125 display and a 55 sump, how much should I take out? I am planning on having a container with pre-mixed salt aerating for each change.


I edited my above post with a link to pictures of my tank to help you with your aquascapting. You will have no problem aquascaping down the back wall. I am pretty short at just under 5'8" and can manage to reach to the bottom of my 125. In terms of changing water, what I do is power wash with a powerhead all the rock in the display with all flow off. I then syphon out the debris along with the desired water and replace the water.

[BloBBeBo]

Interesting. Not exactly what I had imagined, but I could see how that would work. Do you tie or bond the rock together somehow to keep it from falling?

edit: Ok I read further down so I see you don't. I will have to go around to other LFS and see if they have shelf rock I could use, because I know my store doesnt :( we have a really small selection of LR.

[Stuart60611]

Interesting. Not exactly what I had imagined, but I could see how that would work. Do you tie or bond the rock together somehow to keep it from falling?


Rock is all baserock from bulk reef supply. The flat pieces are shelf rock and the balance is pukani rock. All rock is balanced, not glued, and has remained that way stable for years. It is very stable. I like it because it leaves lots of open swimming space in the front while at the same time providing lots of individual shelter spots and breaks in the line of sight. I also forgot that I also added a flame hawk since I took those pictures.

[BloBBeBo]

I love your tuskyfish. They're one of my all-time favorites.

[BloBBeBo]

And is that a female blue-chin trigger I see in there?

How would you compare a blue-chin to the indian? I still can't really decide between those.

[Stuart60611]

I love your tuskyfish. They're one of my all-time favorites.


They are great fish. Mine starting to grow and really fill out. However, they are suprisingly shy and wimpy. They become reasonably bold once adjusted, but definitely on the passive side. Moreover and most importantly, they are difficult to acclimate and should be introduced early in the stocking and often take days before they adjust. Once acclimated, they are very hardy. But they can and often do die during acclimation if not handled very carefully.

[Stuart60611]

And is that a female blue-chin trigger I see in there?

How would you compare a blue-chin to the indian? I still can't really decide between those.


That is a saragassum trigger. He died due to a crazy incident where one of my powerheads shorted and started to literally shoot a flame under water. The saragassum got electricuted. Saragassums and blue throats are very similar in disposition. They are pretty passive open water triggers. They are attractive good community fish. However, they do not share many of the trigger-like behavorial traits you see in, for example, a huma, pinktail, blueline, and some of the other more aggressive triggers. They can be very shy at first, but they become bold over time. Indians are very much like the other triggers mentioned, except they stay smaller and are less aggressive.

[BloBBeBo]

So I'm thinking it's a good thing if I add him first or second, I figured second since the hawkfish is the tiniest fish that will be in the tank... :)

[BloBBeBo]

Oh my. Underwater flames, huh? Well that there is just bad luck sir.

I am leaning toward the indian just because everyone keeps saying they have the personality, which I am looking for. I just don't want to add a trigger right at the end and have him kill everyone y'know? Hah.

That is a saragassum trigger. He died due to a crazy incident where one of my powerheads shorted and started to literally shoot a flame under water. The saragassum got electricuted. Saragassums and blue throats are very similar in disposition. They are pretty passive open water triggers. They are attractive good community fish. However, they do not share many of the trigger-like behavorial traits you see in, for example, a huma, pinktail, blueline, and some of the other more aggressive triggers. They can be very shy at first, but they become bold over time. Indians are very much like the other triggers mentioned, except they stay smaller and are less aggressive.

[Stuart60611]

So I'm thinking it's a good thing if I add him first or second, I figured second since the hawkfish is the tiniest fish that will be in the tank... :)


Exactly why I suggested he be added second on your list (after quarantine, of course). I would not even attempt to feed or turn the lights on for the first 24 hours when added first to the quarantine and then the display tank. Tusks need to be left completely alone when first introduced. Any fish that bothers the tusk will stress it out during this period, and the tusk will die. Most people loose their tusks during the first week after introduction. Once you get past that point, tusks do real well. Moroever, do not worry about getting the tusk to eat at first. As long as he is not real skinny, they can easily go without food for more than 2 weeks.

[BloBBeBo]

Ok, good advice for me to remember here. Now.. about Qts! I'm doing a 20L like I mentioned earlier. How long should I quarantine each fish before I add them to my display? And should I be treating with copper or the like for any ich they may be harboring?

I was always worried about transit stress over moving from the pet store to the QT to the display. Lol.

[Stuart60611]

Oh my. Underwater flames, huh? Well that there is just bad luck sir.

I am leaning toward the indian just because everyone keeps saying they have the personality, which I am looking for. I just don't want to add a trigger right at the end and have him kill everyone y'know? Hah.


Well after owning both a saragassum and an Indian, I prefer the Indian hands down. Saragassum is a bit more attractive (although pictures of the Indian do not do it justice and there are quite a few subtle markings that do not show up well in pictures), the Indian is more of what you expect from a trigger after owning a saragassum, Indian, 3 different humas, and one pinktail. An Indian is basicly a smaller and less aggressive pinktail.

[Stuart60611]

Ok, good advice for me to remember here. Now.. about Qts! I'm doing a 20L like I mentioned earlier. How long should I quarantine each fish before I add them to my display? And should I be treating with copper or the like for any ich they may be harboring?

I was always worried about transit stress over moving from the pet store to the QT to the display. Lol.


You will get a lot of varying views here. My view is that every fish needs to be treated for both crypt and flukes whether or not the fish shows signs of a parasite. All too often parasites are missed in quarantine, and once you infect your display full of fish, it is a real nightmare. I prefer cupramine over other treatments for crypt because of its reliability and ease of application.

My recommendation is place the fish in quarantine. Once you get the fish to eat you can begin treatment. Slowly ramp up the cupramine over a period of at least 4 days to .5 strength. Once at .5 strength you treat for a total of 3 weeks. During the last week of cupramine, dose prazipro for flukes which can be mixed with cupramine. Assuming your fish eats upon arrival to quarantine pretty fast, the whole process should take less than 4 weeks. Also, do not wait for the fish to eat if you see signs of a parasite or the fish is looking sick. You may then need to treat right away.

[BloBBeBo]

I think I will soon be ordering both of those because I'm pretty sure my store doesn't carry them, though I will stop by later today to make sure.

I want to do everything right this time. :reading: When I did my 29 gallon I rushed into everything and it ended up bad.

You will get a lot of varying views here. My view is that every fish needs to be treated for both crypt and flukes whether or not the fish shows signs of a parasite. All too often parasites are missed in quarantine, and once you infect your display full of fish, it is a real nightmare. I prefer cupramine over other treatments for crypt because of its reliability and ease of application.

My recommendation is place the fish in quarantine. Once you get the fish to eat you can begin treatment. Slowly ramp up the cupramine over a period of at least 4 days to .5 strength. Once at .5 strength you treat for a total of 3 weeks. During the last week of cupramine, dose prazipro for flukes which can be mixed with cupramine. Assuming your fish eats upon arrival to quarantine pretty fast, the whole process should take less than 4 weeks. Also, do not wait for the fish to eat if you see signs of a parasite or the fish is looking sick. You may then need to treat right away.

[BloBBeBo]

Whoa! PraziPro is pricey compared to Cupramine. But flukes = bad news. SO I will have to break down and get it :P

[Stuart60611]

I think I will soon be ordering both of those because I'm pretty sure my store doesn't carry them, though I will stop by later today to make sure.

I want to do everything right this time. :reading: When I did my 29 gallon I rushed into everything and it ended up bad.

The tools you will need for your quarantine are: cupramine, copper test kit (seachem or safert), prazipro, a filter/powerhead for quarantine, some plastic pvc pipe or other plastic items for shelter (do not use rock or sand in quarantine), a seachem ammonia badge, and perhaps live bacteria.

What you want to do is establish a biological filter on the quarantine filter first. Your bigest problem in quarantine will be ammonia. You cannot use ammonia binding products with cupramine, or they will kill your fish. Ammonia test kits often do not work with cupramine and therefore the ammonia badge is important. All you can do to battle ammonia in quarantine is water changes and the addition of live bacteria. With each water change you need to re-add the appropriate amount of cupramine/prazipro. Also, feed sparingly in quarantine and remove all uneaten food to avoid ammonia problems. Fish often do not eat much during quarantine, especially when being treated with cupramine and prazipro.

[BloBBeBo]

I'm keeping a notepad of all this stuff I need. I'm going shopping soon for everything I'm going to need. :]