Battle to re-take my tank

[Dingo44]

Hello all,

I have neglected my tank for a few months now and I have only focused on the bare minimum requirements to keep my livestock alive. I would sometimes go 4 weeks without a water change, filter change, or cleaning the simmer. I have also not taken care to not over feed my tank and as a result everything has grown out of control. The main problem is the red encrusting algae that has completely taken over my tank, along with an explosion of aiptasias. I've had a few turbo snails and one cleaner shrimp die during those few months of neglect.

After a few weeks of diagnosis and futile attempts to re-take my tank I have decided to stop hafl-a$$ing it and do it right. For 3 weeks now I've been doing large water changes, deligent powerhead and skimmer cleanng, sand bed vacuuming, and water testing to only end up with a complete algae take over only a week later. After some research I decide to buy a new skimmer since my Remora doesn't seem to be doing it's job. I ordered a Deltec MCE300 and it should be here next week. I've also started rinsing my frozen food before feeding and that seems to be making a difference. All of my water parameters seem to be ok as of now.

I would love some help from the RC community in my battle to re-take my tank. Any input would help about whether I'm headed in the right direction or not.

I currently have 2 O. Clowns and 1 sixline wrasse. A kenya tree that has spread, copper and green zoas, blue ricordea, green mushrooms, a candy-cane coral and a hammer coral. All have thrived throughout the neglect, mainly because I think I was overfeeding and not rinsing my food.

Thanks!

Here's a pic for your viewing pleasure (or disgust)
http://i1001.photobucket.com/albums/af137/dingo4404/FTS.jpg

[SMT6h]

Few questions to get us started:
What is your circulation in the tank? Things look kinda still.
Are you using RO water? You have the maker? When were the filters last changed?
When you say water tests fine, what do you mean? Can you give us parameters? Do you test nitrates and phosphates?
What is your lighting? Type and hours on/off.


What you are showing looks like Cyanobacteria to me.

[sedor]

For starters without having to buy any fancy equipment I would manually remove as much of that cyano as possible by hand, and then concentrate on water changes every couple of days until you get your NO3 and PO4 levels down. With no nutrients feeding the bacteria you should be able to get a grip on it. Then down the road you might want to employ a fuge, GFO, vodka, or some other form of nutrient removal product to the tank to keep those levels down. As SMT mentioned, if that maxijet is the only powerhead you have in the tank you may want to consider adding another. Cyano does very well in low flow systems. And looking back at your picture, that may not even be a powerhead at all. Consider getting some cheap koralias or something.

[Dingo44]

Thanks for the questions, I didn't want to post an entire tank history and lose everyone's interest.

Not pictured are 2 koralia's, a #1 pushing water along the backwall and a #2 on the right side aimed towards the middle/surface. That Maxijet is for the Remora skimmer.

I tested for NO3, NH3, and PO4, all were undetectable on the test kits.

I get my RO/DI and pre-mix from my lfs.

Specific Gravity is 1.025

Temp goes from 77F to 80F (I live in the desert)

I have 2 x 96w CF lights. 1 actinic and one 10k, the 10k is on for 9 hours.

I changed the carbon/filter in the HOB about 4 days ago.

As far as removing the algae by hand, I have done that about 4 times now. It kicks up one hell of a dust storm, looks nice for about 5 days and then it's back to where you see it now. A fuge is not going to happen since my tank is not drilled and I'm way to paranoid about spills, that's one reason I got rid of my ATO.

Thanks for the interest, here's another pic of the algae closer up, some of this stuff is pretty thick.
http://i1001.photobucket.com/albums/af137/dingo4404/candycane.jpg

[muttley000]

How old are your lamps? Those tests are reading zero because it is being tied up in the cyano. I would keep up the water changes, and manual removal. This didn't happen in a few days, and it's going to take more than a few days to get on top of it. Good Luck!

[Dingo44]

Thanks for your input muttley000, I got new bulbs in june, about four and a half months ago. I want to remove the cyano by hand but I worry about the resulting sandstorm. Is there a way to remove it without causing an Iraq-style dust storm? I use a turkey baster to suck up what I can and blow away the stubbornly attached cyano.

I know this ain't gonna be a quick fix, I'm def in it for the long haul! But when I remove the cyano by hand, it shouldn't re-encrust everything in my tank like I was never there in a few days if I've taken precautions with nutrient import/export, should it? And that leads me to my main question, is this a case of too many nutrients coming in, not enough going out? Or something more sinister?

[bs21]

best way to remove it is with a tube and siphon off as much as you can while doing water change. This will avoid the dust storm.... just use the siphon from the tube like a vacuum. Definitely cyanobacteria though.

[bur01014]

I'd do three things: People may agree or disagree, but I have had great success with it.

1. Dose Chemiclean Red Slime Remover (FOLLOW INSTRUCTIONS) It is very safe when not overdosed.

2. Keep up waterchanges every other day.

3. This is actually the FIRST thing I would do.....tank blackout....48-72 hours....cover it in a blanket...complete darkness and no peaking during the time frame. This has done wonders and did not do any significant damage to my corals. After black out, turn lights back on a couple hours the first day and then add an hour or so each day over a weeks time. Then do steps 1 and 2.....this has done wonders for me and got my tank clear in a couple days...

[LakeShow]

I had a minor outbreak of this stuff too not to long ago, what i did to remove it was to siphon it out with weekly water changes.

But also between the weekly water changes i would put a nylon sock over the bottom end of my siphon to ketch all of the cyano and simply fill up a 5 gallon bucket with water, empty the sock, and dump the water back in the tank, ( also sumpless or you could just siphon into your sump) this makes it so you can siphon all of the cyano out without having to waste any water.

Definitely the easiest way i found to remove it manually.

[Dingo44]

Cool, I will def. siphon out as much of this bs as possible using the methods you guys described, I like the sock filter idea but for the first time I'm going to stick to adding new water, not filtered old tank water; I'll do that the next time if it comes back. Once the cyano is out do you think it will come back in a few days and i'll have to repeat the removal process a few more times until everything stabilizes?

[schnitm]

It will keep coming back until you finally leach all of the nutrients built up in your rock and sand. Cleaning out the cyano is working on this. You remove some nutrients every time. More nutrient export would help. How about an HOB fuge and/or over the top ATS.

[Peale]

every so often, http://www.fragglereef.com has small conch snails for sail (4 for 4.99). They bred like crazy. I had a few patches of cyno and haven't seen a drop since these guys were introduced.

[Dingo44]

every so often, http://www.fragglereef.com has small conch snails for sail (4 for 4.99). They bred like crazy. I had a few patches of cyno and haven't seen a drop since these guys were introduced.

Oh really? There are creatures that'll eat this stuff?? That sounds too good to be true... Will they eat other forms of algae if/when the cyano disappear? I will look into this for sure.

After I siphon off the layer of cyano on my sand bed, would it be prudent to replace the sand I took out with new sand or will that negate the biological benefits of my sand bed? It sounds like I will go through removing the red carpet a few times before I strip all the excess nutrients out, so that means I will be taking a good amount of the sand bed with it.

-Thanks

So you think an HOB fuge with some macro algae will help as well?

Will the new skimmer I'm getting help this process out or did I jump the gun on ordering it? (Deltec MCE300 replacing a Remora, both HOB simmers)

[schnitm]

So you think an HOB fuge with some macro algae will help as well?

Will the new skimmer I'm getting help this process out or did I jump the gun on ordering it? (Deltec MCE300 replacing a Remora, both HOB simmers)

Some nice green macro under a warm colored light might out compete the cyano. Has in my experience. Skimmer seems to work on keeping nutrients from entering. You're past that right now.

[divewsharks]

maybe i missed it above somewhere, how big is your tank? a K1 and K2 are pretty week unless the tank is real small.
Do you run carbon or gfo?

[Dingo44]

I have a 37 gal tank and it's been running for 16 months, 9 months since I moved it. This outbreak started after adding 2 O. clowns about 6 months ago, I never took proper action to stop it, then I neglected the tank for about 3 months.

I do run carbon in the HOB filter. I changed the carbon about a week ago. Do you think a k1 and k2 is enough flow in a 37 gal? The math works out to 27 times tank volume turnover per hour, not including the skimmer and HOB, which I was told you don't factor into water flow calculations.

I did a little clean up yesterday in the tank and when I removed some of the cyano on the live rock, it revealed a garden of GHA! I didn't think anything could grow under a thick layer of cyano and there is a huge, thick garden of GHA that sprung up right under the cyano.

I'm going to keep the lights off for the next 3 days then do a water change will sucking away as much of the red carpet as possible. Then my new skimmer should be here by then.

[wilsonreefs]

I see what looks like the tube of a Emperor 400 HOB filter. do you have a sump? If you indeed have the Emperor filter do you have the bio wheels installed? If so take them out, in my opinion they are nitrate traps waiting to happen. If you don't have a sump see about getting one. I had a 75 gallon with two of the Emperor's, and I always had problems. You would be better off with the sump, but in the mean time tear the HOB filter completely down and clean, and recharge the filter media. To keep those really functioning properly they have to be cleaned often.

[Dingo44]

Your eyes do not deceive you Mr. Wilson.... That is indeed an emperor HOB, but a 280, not a 400. I took that bio wheel out the day I got that thing, then I loaded it up with live rock rubble and ran one filter pad with integrated carbon. I've been pretty good lately about changing that filter pad. Since the picture was taken I cleaned the intake tube.

I wish I had a sump but I bought this tank a long time ago when I didn't know squat. The tank is not drilled and I'm paranoid about flooding so I'm not going to put an overflow box on it.

-Gracias!

[cdeboard]

I had cyano in my sandbed pretty bad. Got a diamond goby. No more cyano in my sandbed LOL.

The lights out thing wont solve it either, it will go away but come back. In the dark it shrinks. Cyano is a bacteria algae not like other algae (Green hair, etc) that are purely phosphate/nitrate based.

[Saltyllama]

To answer your question, both the skimmer and the HOB fuge will help with your issue. It will not help immediately, but it will give you more breathing room when those stages of neglect occur.

You made a great dicision with the deltec skimmer. Now find someone in your local club that has a used HOB for sale. Fill that puppy with some chaeto and some rubble and pop a light on top. That combo will pull nutrients from your little system like a champ.

For now though stay up on frequent water changes, manually remove what you can, closely monitor feeding, and I would recommend adding another k2 in the system. You most look for about a 40x turnover for reefs. I'd add the the other k2 and use the spare K1 to kill dead spots if there are any. ie. - pointed behind the rock work to keep things from settling back there.

Good luck bud!

[Conrad25]

I would do a few things to get this stuff gone and your tank back to where you love it.

1) Get some cheato and Mangrove plants. If your lighting is high enough above the tank, you won't need to add another light as the aquarium light can give it all it needs with a Hang over the back filter. I have done this before and it works great.

2) Make enough water to do a 20%-50% water change

3) Get yourself some red slime remover and dose per instructions.

It will be gone within a day most of the time. I have done this method before with a huge mix of corals including sps/lps and softies and have had zero issues with it. Chemicals are usually not the answer, but with cyno this is the way to go to perm. get rid of it.

Conrad

[Dingo44]

So I did the a three day blackout and I don't think I did it correctly because the cyano didn't go away. I guess it was too bright in my living room to have any real affect. The tank looks better, but I think I needed to put a sheet or blanket over the tank. I've been rinsing my food and cleaning the skimmer cup every other day. I'm going to do a water change tomorrow and siphon as much of this crap as I can. I also added another k 1 to the middle of the tank facing up towards the surface.

Before:
http://i1001.photobucket.com/albums/af137/dingo4404/FTS.jpg

After:
http://i1001.photobucket.com/albums/af137/dingo4404/IMG_20100925_114331.jpg

http://i1001.photobucket.com/albums/af137/dingo4404/IMG_20100925_114403.jpg

Can I do another 3 day blackout a few days after doing one? Should I put a sheet or blanket over the tank and how ill that affect the temp/air exchange?

I'm still waiting for my new Deltec skimmer to come, it's kinda waiting for Christmas.

[rhouse24]

So I did the a three day blackout and I don't think I did it correctly because the cyano didn't go away. I guess it was too bright in my living room to have any real affect. The tank looks better, but I think I needed to put a sheet or blanket over the tank.

I had the same problem and removing light was not the answer. I raised my alk from 7 to 9dkH and every week I siphoned every spec of cyano I could find. When I siphoned I made sure to turn over the substrate a little. I also added a HOB refugium and chemipure elite. However it was the raising of alk, reduced feedings, and weekly cleaning that were key to me beating the problem in about two months. HTH:)

[bs21]

I do remember reading that cyano has more to do with nutrients and flow than light and will still grow in the dark.....unless I'm mistaken.

[Dustin1300]

WATER CHANGES, WATER CHANGES, WATER CHANGES.

What is your source of water when you do a water change? I do 15% water changes weekly. I'd guess that you are WAY overdue.

[Dingo44]

When I'm on top of things, which I wasn't for a few months, I do a 30% water change bi-weekly with pre mix from a good lfs and top off with RO/DI from the same place. I did a 30% water change last Sunday and I'm going to do another one tomorrow.

[divewsharks]

Just doing a blackout will not solve the problem, it may mask the symptoms (same way red slime remover will). you need to figure out the source of the nutrients - phosphates. Did you boost the flow? Change your carbon and/or our gfo again?
Test your top-off and water change water before anything can pull excess nutrients out and render your tests useless.

[Dingo44]

Yeah, I know doing a blackout won't solve the problem, I just thought it might give me a leg up with the ongoing war. I think the underlying problem was overfeeding, not rinsing the frozen food, under skimming, and neglect with maintanance.

You know divewsharks, I never thought about testing my water change and top off water. I always took it for granted that the lfs would have good quality water b/c they are a good reef store and have a good reputation. I will do a full battery of test tomorrow when I do a water change. I need to get a handheld TDS meter along with a refroctometer, I've been putting those two purchases off for too long. I also wanted to get an RO/DI unti as well, but I thought my money would be better spent with a new skimmer.

When would it be safe for me to do another 3 day blackout?

[rhouse24]

When I'm on top of things, which I wasn't for a few months, I do a 30% water change bi-weekly with pre mix from a good lfs and top off with RO/DI from the same place. I did a 30% water change last Sunday and I'm going to do another one tomorrow.

Unless you have a ton of phosphates, 10-20% per week would be great. This is a problem that will not go away in a short time period, quick large corrections will have bad results. It took months to get this bad it will take months to make the correction. What were your alk and phosphates at?

[Dingo44]

When I tested phosphates last Sunday they were reading 0 with a salifert test kit, I'll test for both PO4 and alk right now since it's been a week since my last water change and now you've got me all curious.

[Dingo44]

Most recent water test results:
Alk 8 dKH
Ca 500 ppm
PO4 0 ppm
pH ~8.4
NO3 0 ppm
S.G. ~1.025
temp 80.8

[rhouse24]

Most recent water test results:
Alk 8 dKH
Ca 500 ppm
PO4 0 ppm
pH ~8.4
NO3 0 ppm
S.G. ~1.025
temp 80.8

Looks good, just keep cleaning and you will get ahead of it:)

[Dingo44]

cool, thanks, I hope so.

[avel]

you could try this http://forum.marinedepot.com/Topic89570-4-1.aspx

[Dustin1300]

Looks good, just keep cleaning and you will get ahead of it:)

While those parameters look good....The cyano is really just consuming all the phospates for now. You need to find the source of the nutrient problem. While I would guess that the neglect is the problem I would also say from the posting that your tank has too low of flow also. Amping the powerheads up and changing 15% of the water weekly would be my 'Next Steps'. I'd give that about a month and you should see progress. If you don't see any progress then a new strategy needs to be added so you can win the war! I'd think that in 2 months you could retake the tank.

[Nannook]

Chemiclean Red Slime Remover. Really works on red slime. Follow the directions. You will be turning off the skimmer for a day. Then when you turn it on you will have to empty the skimmer every hour for a while. It will kill cyano within hours. Someday it will return, but It has been nearly a year since for my 29 BC.

[Dingo44]

I've heard good things about Chemiclean Red Slime Remover, I'll have to check it out, thanks Nannook.

I've also heard that it's a myth about cyano flourishing in low flow. I have cyano attached to my power heads and waving in the water literally right in front of the power heads. I recently added a third powerhead to bring my total flow to 37 times tank volume per hour, not including the HOB filter and skimmer, is that enough?

[MedRed]

Suck out as much cyano as you can. Get some Ultralife Red Slime Remover. And then water changes and dosing to get your params in check

[Dustin1300]

I personally would not use any chemicals. Patience is the important aspect of this hobby and bringing things in check will clear up the issue. You waited months for it to get to the state it currrently is so why rush something that could have a negative effect on fish/coral? Make some water changes, manually remove as much as you can and keep doing the water changes. It will soon be gone but not in a day. Took it a while to get to where it is now and will be a couple months before everything is prestine.

[MedRed]

cyano exudes poisons that are toxic to the corals they smother. I'd get rid of the cyano ASAP with a reef safe product... then deal with the issues that caused it in the first place.

[Dingo44]

So I did a 30% water change and sucked out as much cyano as I could in 10 gallons. I took a lot of the substrate with it and realized that I was running very shallow. I could see glass through the sand in some parts so I added about 3/4" new aragonite.

Even though I know this will be short lived, the tank looks better than it has in a while. It gives me motivation to continue the struggle...:beer:
http://i1001.photobucket.com/albums/af137/dingo4404/10.jpg
The hammer was perturbed by the disturbance and shrank up.

While syphoning out the evil cyano I had a casualty. I accidentally sucked up one of the heads on my candy cane coral and it ripped the tissue... I hope it lives. :worried:
http://i1001.photobucket.com/albums/af137/dingo4404/DamagedCoral.jpg

Is cyano really that toxic for corals?

[MedRed]

Looking much better! yes cyano is toxic to corals (and humans if ingested for that matter)

[Tylt33]

Dingo44,

I've found the best way to deal with cyano is through diligent water changes. Don't bother testing for PO4; even the best Seachem PO4 kits are wildly inaccurate. You can test if you get a Hanna Low Range Colorimeter, but if you don't have one, don't bother.

Other thoughts:

1. A sand sifting goby, as others have said. However, these fish have a number of drawbacks, so don't buy one without thorough research. They won't touch the cyano on your rocks.

2. Blackouts on your tank don't remove nutrients. They delay an algae bloom, but it will still happen.

3. Time... time.

[Dingo44]

Thanks MedRed. I'll make sure to keep it off the coral, I had no idea. Can cyano kill all the micro organisms and beneficial bacteria on the live rock as well?


Tylt33, when you say diligent water changes do you mean keeping up on my regular bi-weekly water changes or upping the frequency of the changes? How often could I do water changes without hurting anything in the tank?

I was thinking about a goby, or a blenny if those are good little workers as well. I have to research a little more.

[rhouse24]

I added about 3/4" new aragonite.
Is cyano really that toxic for corals?

I didn't realize you had a 10g also:) Just so you know, the new substrate will probably cause a small cycle (I did the same thing). You did good to get all the cyano out, now take it slow.

Things I did that helped:
changed substrate grain size from CC to fine (one cup per week)
shortened photo period
added a hob refugium
chemipure elite (amazing for phosphate and nitrate)
cut back on food
Suck out all the new cyano weekly (use a small dia. tube and it helps to have a partner that can pause the siphon while you're cleaning)
be vigilant on your param's and keep that alk above 8

Again good luck, you can beat it. Oh and yes it can kill weaker corals.

[divewsharks]

Thanks MedRed. I'll make sure to keep it off the coral, I had no idea. Can cyano kill all the micro organisms and beneficial bacteria on the live rock as well?


Tylt33, when you say diligent water changes do you mean keeping up on my regular bi-weekly water changes or upping the frequency of the changes? How often could I do water changes without hurting anything in the tank?

I was thinking about a goby, or a blenny if those are good little workers as well. I have to research a little more.

I would do weekly for a while to get everything under control.

[Dustin1300]

Looks much better. Keep up the water changes and things will get better.

[Dingo44]

It finally came. I now have a new weapon in the war on cyano, a brand spanking new Deltec MCE300! I put it on last night and left the old Remora on next to it until the new skimmer breaks in. I don't want to leave the tank skimmerless for however long it will take for the new one to break in. Thanks for the nice words Dustin.

I also added 10 hermits and a conch. The conch is pretty cool, he's an algae eating machine. The cyano is definitely coming back since the last cleaning I did, this time it seems to be coming back a little slower so I hope this is a sign that I'm winning the battle.

New skimmer next to the old Remora
http://i1001.photobucket.com/albums/af137/dingo4404/NewSkimmer.jpg

Cyano slowly creeping back
http://i1001.photobucket.com/albums/af137/dingo4404/10-1.jpg
Yes those are aiptasias. No matter how many times I bomb them with Aiptasia X they just keep coming back. I swear they're laughing at me in that pick.

http://i1001.photobucket.com/albums/af137/dingo4404/10-2.jpg

[Dustin1300]

Now I see in the latest pics you have hair algae under the cyano. Looks like you are starting off well but I HATE hair algae. Had a battle with it at one time and manual removal over and over is great. To ensure your nutrients/phosphates are staying low I'd try to do as much possible:

- Use gloves up to your shoulders. You'd be amazed how much you leach off from you arms when reaching into the tank.
- Use a macro algae in sump to consume the resources so the hair algae does not have anything to thrive.
- Continue water changes
- Ensure TDS reads zero on the RO/DI
- Use some filtration to filter out the Phosban (I use reactor with Phosban in it)

Good luck and keep on updating us!

[josh1182]

I had a small cyano prob in my ten! I got rid of it by cleaning my filter sucking off all the cyano while doing the water change and that took care of it. its 99% gone and I think I am good. all I have is a cheap hang on filter and that's all.

as for green hair algae I have a Mexican turbo snail that is a hair algae eating monster!

but that's what I got hope it can help.

like they said water changing is your best bet along with removal every change.

[Dustin1300]

If you are not wanting to do water changes it also works well with what Josh1182 mentioned....You can simply place a filter sock in the sump and siphon algae from the DT. The filter sock will siphon out the unwanted algae and your not limited to amount of time the water takes to drain;)

[Nanz]

Your problem is the Phosphates in your rock and sand. No matter how many times you does chemiclean your never going to get rid of cyano for more than a week or two and it will come back. Everytime you dose chemiclean you wipe out your bacteria and that dead bacteria turns into NO3. Then a new algea comes along and sucks it up the until it is destroyed and releases them back into the water. Its a vicous cycle.

Solution:
Remove the rocks and soak them in muratic acid (50/50 HCl). Buy this at the hardware store $5. There will be alot of black foam and the water in the bucket will be black. Do several dippings with the rock until the water is clear. Do not use tap water to mix with the acid. Only RO/DI. Use gloves and eye protection. Do not inhale vapors!

Then place the rocks in a covered tub with a heater and powerhead. Add bacteria daily and test until you see the Nitrite spike and drop to zero. This will take about 3-4 weeks. Do 25% weekly water changes.

Once the rock is cleaned and cycled its time to address the sandbed. Remove it completely and start with fresh sand. I dont advise rinsing but other have had success with it. Always use RODI water never tap water.

This process will remove the phosphates and nitrates from the system. I have done this to revive 3 different tanks. All 3 cases were 100% sucessful.

In the mean time you can keep one of the dirty rocks in the tank with your corals and fish to provide bacteri while the others are being cleaned. once you replace the sandbed and the other rocks then remove the dirty rock and put it through the same process.

[Dustin1300]

Nanz, I'd agree that this would resolve the issue....But its not really that practical considering the steps being recommended. I'd stick with your current plan. You can remove the phosphates/nitrates in many other successful manners. (I'm currently looking to buy/build a de nitrator with sulfur to keep nitrate at 0 at all times.)

[Dingo44]

Nanz, that seems like it will do the trick, thanks for the advice. However, I am not at that point yet and I am not planning on using any chemicals. I would hate to have to clean my rock to that extent since I've got an amazing diversity of life on those rocks, I still see new critters after a year and a half.

I'm starting to seriously consider an HOB fuge and reactor with some GFO due to the general theme that runs constant through most of these posts about leaching PO4 and macro algae outcompeting the cyano.

I did suck out most of the sand bed and put in new, rinsed aragonite.

I'm definitely going to keep up on water changes since that seems to be the best thing I could do for all around tank health.

Dustin, I unfortunately do not have a sump so I couldn't use a filter sock. I do have an HOB filter with rumble and a floss/carbon filled filter pad that I change about every two weeks. If my nitrates are reading zero on the test kits could that just mean that the cyano and algae are consuming it before it reaches testable levels? Would some kind of de-nitrator be an idea to look into?

[Dustin1300]

Nanz, that seems like it will do the trick, thanks for the advice. However, I am not at that point yet and I am not planning on using any chemicals. I would hate to have to clean my rock to that extent since I've got an amazing diversity of life on those rocks, I still see new critters after a year and a half.

I'm starting to seriously consider an HOB fuge and reactor with some GFO due to the general theme that runs constant through most of these posts about leaching PO4 and macro algae outcompeting the cyano.

I did suck out most of the sand bed and put in new, rinsed aragonite.

I'm definitely going to keep up on water changes since that seems to be the best thing I could do for all around tank health.

Dustin, I unfortunately do not have a sump so I couldn't use a filter sock. I do have an HOB filter with rumble and a floss/carbon filled filter pad that I change about every two weeks. If my nitrates are reading zero on the test kits could that just mean that the cyano and algae are consuming it before it reaches testable levels? Would some kind of de-nitrator be an idea to look into?

I should have guessed no sump with the hob protein skimmer which was a good upgrade. I upgraded to sump and LOVE having one now on my newer tank as it hides the equipment and only thing i see is overflow/return which is barely visible;)

In regards to the reactor it seems they are very efficient at removing nitrate. Really seems you can build one for around $100 with media based on some threads in the DIY forum. I want nitrates at zero at all times because of my SPS so this is the drive for me. You can buy a Midwest de nitrater but will set back $300-$400 new and nothing super special about them that separates from a DIY.

[Nanz]

Nanz, I'd agree that this would resolve the issue....But its not really that practical considering the steps being recommended. I'd stick with your current plan. You can remove the phosphates/nitrates in many other successful manners. (I'm currently looking to buy/build a de nitrator with sulfur to keep nitrate at 0 at all times.)

I know its drastic but considering he has other pests as well as the cyano I would strongly suggest it. But either way the OP must also commit to weekly water changes or all this work will be for nothing.

[Dingo44]

I'm going to save your idea for the last resort Nanz, call it the nuclear option. For now I'm going to use suggestions I've gotten here and continue weekly water changes (which I'm already a day late for), syphoning the slime, rinsing food, cutting down on feeding amounts, keeping the new skimmer clean, and adding more cuc.

I also ordered a Two Little Fishes 150 reactor and Phosban media. It should be here by the end of the week. I'm hoping this will give me a leg up.

I'm thinking of putting some cheato in the HOB filter and popping a light above it to make it a makeshift fuge. There is already some rubble in there and I won't have the anxiety of worrying about it overflowing like a HOB fuge.

Even with the steps that I have been taking, the cyano and other algae has shown little letting up. Every afternoon when I get home from class there is a good amount of algae on the glass and the slime has crept back. Hopefully when the new skimmer comes online the growth will start to let up.

Thanks for the input!

[PaxRoma]

In my opinion, no need to cook your live rock. LR is like "phosphate sponges". It absorb phosphate when nutrient in the water is high, and releasing it when nutrient in water is low..
so after you cook your rock..then what? as long as you have nutrient in the water, which you always do, LR will still absorb this nutrient, and releasing it.
When you "cook" your LR, the surface of the rock is clean, which basically is brand new real estate for algae, cyano to move in. Coralline algae competes with hair algae and cyano. By "cooking" your LR, you also destroy this natural competitor as well.
So as long as there is nutrient in the water, cooking the rock is pointless, because the cyano and hair algae will keep coming back, even at a faster rate when the rock is clean.
The solution is then, to minimize the nutrient in the water. With the advent of GFO, phosphate can be significantly reduced in the water column. Any phosphate leaching from LR to the water column will of course be absorbed by GFO, depriving the hair algae and cyano its nutrient.
Physically removing hair algae, cyano by siphoning them out during water change as much as you can, and keep up the GFO maintainance, you will then addressing the problem at its source, rather than just treating the symptoms (i.e cooking the rocks).
In my opinion, skimmer is an accessory to algae control, but GFO is a must. My skimmer is only at 5% capacity.

[Nanz]

In my opinion, no need to cook your live rock. LR is like "phosphate sponges". It absorb phosphate when nutrient in the water is high, and releasing it when nutrient in water is low..
so after you cook your rock..then what? as long as you have nutrient in the water, which you always do, LR will still absorb this nutrient, and releasing it.
When you "cook" your LR, the surface of the rock is clean, which basically is brand new real estate for algae, cyano to move in. Coralline algae competes with hair algae and cyano. By "cooking" your LR, you also destroy this natural competitor as well.
So as long as there is nutrient in the water, cooking the rock is pointless, because the cyano and hair algae will keep coming back, even at a faster rate when the rock is clean.
The solution is then, to minimize the nutrient in the water. With the advent of GFO, phosphate can be significantly reduced in the water column. Any phosphate leaching from LR to the water column will of course be absorbed by GFO, depriving the hair algae and cyano its nutrient.
Physically removing hair algae, cyano by siphoning them out during water change as much as you can, and keep up the GFO maintainance, you will then addressing the problem at its source, rather than just treating the symptoms (i.e cooking the rocks).
In my opinion, skimmer is an accessory to algae control, but GFO is a must. My skimmer is only at 5% capacity.

This process is not treating the symptoms. It is treating the SOURCE. The GFO has very little chance of keeping up with the PO4 leaching out of the rocks. The source of the PO4 is the rock, sand and food NOT the water.

The cyano will grow on anything. The coralline algae will not out compete it and cyano will grow overtop of coralline. As for the hair algae that is part of a normal cycle and it will go away with reduced light and increased Mg(1600ppm) and water changes. Cyano should not return unless you are supplying the tank with PO4 from another source such as over feeding or the tank being near a laundry room. You have to locate the source first and right now the Rock and sand are at the top of the list. I bet if you test the water the PO4 is zero because the PO4 is in the rock, sand and being consumed by the cyano and algae.

How is the GFO going to remove the PO4 if the PO4 is not in the water column? It can’t and by the time it gets to the GFO filter the PO4 has already been consumed by the cyano.

The phosphates accumulate on the outer surface of the rock. The HCl will remove all the phosphates. Right now I believe his rocks are saturated with Phosphates which will take years to remove from the rock using water changes. The HCl cleaning method will take weeks compared to a year or so of frustration and costs. As well as no guarantee.

This is not really rock cooking but more of rock cleaning followed by what some consider rock cooking. Once the rock is cleaned and then begins to be populated with bacteria you can also add a detrivore kit with pods, worms, etc.

Don’t buy anymore chemi-clean because it will kill all the bacteria and force your tank back into a cycle which is a money sink.

Good Luck :)

[PaxRoma]

Nutrients such as Nitrate, phosphate are uptake by algae, cyano from the water column, not from rock. They do not have "roots" that absorb nutrient from a solid matter like terrestrial plants do. If you're thinking about roots in caulerpa , they are called holdfast, and only serve to anchor the organism, and not to uptake nutrient. Nutrients are always present in the water column from decaying matter such food input, fish wastes, etc. The rock is simply a reservoir for this excess nutrient.


The phosphates accumulate on the outer surface of the rock. The HCl will remove all the phosphates.
Good Luck :)
Please point to a scientific article that says this.

[Dingo44]

Awesome back and forth PaxRoma and Nanz! I like reading debates like this, it spurs my curiosity. So I went digging for some more info on this and I found a lengthy article from Reef Keeping Magazine in the chemistry forum dealing with Phosphates in the aquarium. Interesting stuff, complicated, but fascinating. I'm happy I'm taking a General Chem II class this semester in order to help me understand some of the chem jargon. Here is an excerpt from that article addressing the very issue you two are talking about:

"One mechanism for phosphate reduction in reef aquaria may simply be the precipitation of calcium phosphate, Ca3(PO4)2. The water in many reef aquaria is supersaturated with respect to this material, as its equilibrium saturation concentration in normal seawater is only 0.002 ppm phosphate. As with CaCO3, the precipitation of Ca3(PO4)2 in seawater may be limited more by kinetic factors than by equilibrium factors, so it is impossible to say how much will precipitate under reef aquarium conditions (without, of course, somehow determining it experimentally). This precipitation may be especially likely where calcium and high pH additives (such as limewater) enter the aquarium water. The locally high pH converts much of the HPO4-- to PO4---. Combined with the locally high calcium level (also from the limewater), the locally high PO4--- level may push the supersaturation of Ca3(PO4)2 to unstable levels, causing precipitation. If these calcium phosphate crystals are formed in the water column (e.g., if they form at the local area where limewater hits the aquarium water), then they may become coated with organics and be skimmed out of the aquarium.

Many reefkeepers accept the concept that adding limewater reduces phosphate levels. This may be true, but the mechanism remains to be demonstrated. Craig Bingman has done a variety of experiments related to this hypothesis, and has published them in the old Aquarium Frontiers magazine. While many aquarists may not care what the mechanism is, knowing how it occurs will help us understand the limits of this method, and how to best employ it.

One possible mechanism could be through calcium phosphate precipitation, as outlined above. A second mechanism for potential phosphate reduction when using high pH additives is the binding of phosphate to calcium carbonate surfaces. The absorption of phosphate from seawater onto aragonite is pH dependent, with the binding maximized at around pH 8.4 and with less binding occurring at lower and higher pH values. Habib Sekha (owner of Salifert) has pointed out that limewater additions may lead to substantial precipitation of calcium carbonate in reef aquaria. This idea makes perfect sense. After all, it is certainly not the case that large numbers of reef aquaria exactly balance calcification needs by replacing all evaporated water with saturated limewater. And yet, many aquarists find that calcium and alkalinity levels are stable over long time periods with just that scenario. One way this can be true is if the excess calcium and alkalinity, which such additions typically add to the aquarium, are subsequently removed by precipitation of calcium carbonate (such as on heaters, pumps, sand, live rock, etc.). It is this ongoing precipitation of calcium carbonate, then, that may reduce the phosphate levels; phosphate binds to these growing surfaces and becomes part of the solid precipitate.

If the calcium carbonate crystal is static (not growing), then this process is reversible, and the aragonite can act as a reservoir for phosphate. This reservoir can inhibit the complete removal of excess phosphate from a reef aquarium that has experienced very high phosphate levels, and may permit algae to continue to thrive despite all external phosphate sources having been cut off. In such extreme cases, removal of the substrate may even be required.

If the calcium carbonate deposits are growing, then phosphate may become buried in the growing crystal, which can act as a sink for phosphate, at least until that CaCO3 is somehow dissolved. Additionally, if these crystals are in the water column (e.g., if they form at the local area where limewater hits the aquarium water), then they may become coated with organics and be skimmed out of the aquarium.

If phosphate binds to calcium carbonate surfaces to a significant extent in reef aquaria, then this mechanism may be attained with other high pH additive systems (such as some of the two-part additives, including Recipe #1 of my DIY system). However, this potential precipitation of phosphate on growing calcium carbonate surfaces will not be as readily attained with low pH systems, such as those using calcium carbonate/carbon dioxide reactors or those where the pH is low due to excessive atmospheric carbon dioxide, because the low pH inhibits the precipitation of excess calcium and alkalinity as calcium carbonate, as well as inhibiting the binding of phosphate to calcium carbonate."

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-09/rhf/index.php

The paragraph in bold type suggests that Nanz maybe on to something, although there is no way to tell for sure. My pH is relatively low, defiantly below 8.4, suggesting that phosphate may not be precipitating with Calcium Carbonate in such an amount that my sand and rock are acting as sinks, slowly releasing phosphate back into the water column and being consumed by the algae and cyano.

Interesting enough, this article insinuates that depleted calcium levels in the aquarium can be blamed on the precipitation of calcium phosphate. My Calcium levels have not been fluctuating, they stay pretty constant.

[PaxRoma]

I guess where we are different is the definition of "source" of phosphate. He thinks the rock is the source, I think its a reservoir.
Regardless of however you want to call it, phosphate can be released from the rock back into the water, according to the major scientific opinions. I , however, think cooking the rock is such an extreme measure that the risk outweigh the benefits. Here I list the pros and cons of cooking the rock:
Pros
-get rid of some phosphate, not all. Live rock are coral skeleton and as such, phosphate are not just contain on the outer layer of this skeleton. The only way to get rid of all the phosphate would be to let the acid eats away all of the rock.
Cons:
-destroy the natural diversity of the rock.
-destroy the natural competitor of pest algae and cyano.
-destroy the detritivores, which are natural helpers that help you get rid of phosphate by incorporating organic phosphate into their living cells.
-risk of severe disruption to filtration.

I don't know, the cons seems to outweigh the benefits to me.
In my opinion, if the rock act as phosphate reservoir, it can be depleted with combination of vigilant GFO, macro growth, and skimmer. As long as the phosphate concentration in the water is so low that it becomes the limiting reagent for pest growth, you have achieved what you want.

[rhouse24]

Solution:
Remove the rocks and soak them in muratic acid (50/50 HCl). Buy this at the hardware store $5. There will be alot of black foam and the water in the bucket will be black. Do several dippings with the rock until the water is clear. Do not use tap water to mix with the acid. Only RO/DI. Use gloves and eye protection. Do not inhale vapors!


:idea:Pull the rocks out, put them in the garden and buy new rock from the LFS.

High phosphates in a 10g is a relatively easy problem to fix. Absolutely no need to go nuclear.

Did you get any diatom from changing the substrate? The cyano will continue to come back for weeks are you keeping it under control?

[Nanz]

Nutrients such as Nitrate, phosphate are uptake by algae, cyano from the water column, not from rock. They do not have "roots" that absorb nutrient from a solid matter like terrestrial plants do. If you're thinking about roots in caulerpa , they are called holdfast, and only serve to anchor the organism, and not to uptake nutrient. Nutrients are always present in the water column from decaying matter such food input, fish wastes, etc. The rock is simply a reservoir for this excess nutrient.


Please point to a scientific article that says this.

I’m surprised you haven’t checked my profile. Im a she not a he.

The phosphates are in the rock and released into the water column. Before PO4 reach your GFO the cyano sucks them up. The GFO has to wait for the water to pass through your sump while the cyano sits on the PO4 source and waits for the nutrients to be released. But don’t believe me do the following experiment.

Test the water and tell me what the PO4 is?

Then chip the rock and dissolve in vinegar over several hours. Test the PO4 of that solution.

When you clean the rocks:
Pros:

No more undesirable algae, pests and diseases.
No more Phosphates
Only acceptable bacteria present.
Only acceptable detrivores present. (no more guessing what is in the rock)
(This process removes and kills Vertimide snails as well as other pests.)

Cons:

Takes time to repopulate the rock with selected bacteria and detrivores.
Requires some physical work to clean the rocks.

[Dingo44]

:idea:Pull the rocks out, put them in the garden and buy new rock from the LFS.

High phosphates in a 10g is a relatively easy problem to fix. Absolutely no need to go nuclear.

Did you get any diatom from changing the substrate? The cyano will continue to come back for weeks are you keeping it under control?

I think I got a little diatom bloom on the new sand bed, but it's hard for me to differentiate between diatoms and cyano. The evil cyano is still growing but I am on top of them like white on rice. I'm waiting for the pump to arrive to start up my new phosban reactor.

I feel you guys on the live rocks acting like reservoirs. Getting new live rock is a last resort if all else fails after time and patience. Believe it or not, I'm kinda enjoying this battle against nature in my tank. I've got all sorts of pests on my LR and I like trying new things to combat them. Plus I feel like a superpower withholding my nukes in order to get a rogue nation to comply and withdraw their troops from my tank, if they don't leave, BAM! Goodbye live rock.:blown:

http://i1001.photobucket.com/albums/af137/dingo4404/IMG_20101008_114237.jpg
http://i1001.photobucket.com/albums/af137/dingo4404/IMG_20101008_114246.jpg
http://i1001.photobucket.com/albums/af137/dingo4404/IMG_20101008_115806.jpg
http://i1001.photobucket.com/albums/af137/dingo4404/IMG_20101008_115817.jpg
You know you have an algae problem when an asterina star is eating algae off a hermit who is eating algae off an algae eating conch.
http://i1001.photobucket.com/albums/af137/dingo4404/IMG_20101003_010312.jpg
The damaged trumpet coral healed pretty well
http://i1001.photobucket.com/albums/af137/dingo4404/IMG_20101008_120233-1.jpg
I think these are hydroids
http://i1001.photobucket.com/albums/af137/dingo4404/Hydroids.jpg

[longiotti]

is it just me or does some of that live rock look home made? is there a chance that someone did not cue the agrocreate and it is leaching into the tank? I have made my own rock just like I am sure a lot of DIYers have. I put mine in the pond in the back yard for about 3 months though to make sure it was clean. anyone else?

[longiotti]

some of that rock looks like agrocrete. any chance it is not cured? I saw this happen in a friends tank. No really, it was a "friends" tank! :lmao:

[rhouse24]

I think I got a little diatom bloom on the new sand bed, but it's hard for me to differentiate between diatoms and cyano. The evil cyano is still growing but I am on top of them like white on rice.

Glad to see you're handling your business:D

[muttley000]

The most recent pictures show great progress in my opinion. I don't want to get into the debate, which has been most interesting, but I would just keep doing what you have been doing.

[Dustin1300]

Good progress and keep it up. I believe the nuking is not necessary and would continue with the steps already taken. In regards to the rock question....I believe it is real live rock by my eye;)

[Dingo44]

As far as I know, all that live rock is the real deal. Most of it was live rock from an established tank covered in coralline and all sorts of critters, good and bad.

It looks like I'm making some progress here. I installed a TLF Phosphate reactor last week and removed the old skimmer. Ever since I removed the old skimmer the new skimmer has kicked into gear. It seams as if the two skimmers running simultaneously was preventing the new skimmer from breaking in properly.

When I would check the glass daily, there would always be a hefty amount of new algae on the glass that needed to be scraped off. Now I only need to scrape the glass every three days, that's telling me that I'm doing something right.

The Kenya tree and the star polyps seemed to be a little stressed from the change in water chemistry, hopefully they will adjust.

I went to the LFS yesterday with my girlfriend who has the reef bug like me. We ended up getting few new frags. I know it's not the most prudent thing to do in the middle of an algae outbreak but I couldn't say no to her. We ended up getting some pink zoas, a little frogspawn, and a pretty sizable waving hand Xenia that she just had to have.

Here are some pictures for your viewing pleasure:
That ugly black tube is for the phosphate reactor, I still need to get some barbed elbows and clean it up
http://i1001.photobucket.com/albums/af137/dingo4404/10-3.jpg
http://i1001.photobucket.com/albums/af137/dingo4404/WavingHandXenia.jpg
These guys are a little stressed out right now:
http://i1001.photobucket.com/albums/af137/dingo4404/StarPolyps.jpg
http://i1001.photobucket.com/albums/af137/dingo4404/PinkZoas.jpg
http://i1001.photobucket.com/albums/af137/dingo4404/Frogspawn.jpg

[ahenson]

Looks a lot better, I would increase flow. Cyano doesn't grow in high flow IMHO

[t4zalews]

You know you have an algae problem when an asterina star is eating algae off a hermit who is eating algae off an algae eating conch.

HAHAHAH..i found this really funny.