First Lionfish caught of Destin in northwest Fl

[lhm nole]

Was reported in Daily News that they caught first known lionfish(in this area) about 6 miles off the coast of Destin, they think it originated from the keys, by bet is someone released it.

[Pallobi]

i saw a special on discovery not too long ago of some marine bioligist and other divers researching the effect of lionfish decimating certain populations of reef fish in certain areas off of the florida coastlines becuz of people (they assume) releasing lionfish there... they were the dominate species in an enviroment they had no business being in in the first place... kinda sad actually... they have no predators so they were jus taking over and killing all babies and other small fish...

[spamreefnew]

i saw a show on them to,,the show i watched said it was from ballast tanks of large ships.

[firerunner]

I just watched that report on the lion fish.

the link
http://www.baynews9.com/article/news/2008/august/69426/Venomous-lionfish-prowling-fragile-Caribbean-waters

and this one

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2010/sep/12/121559/more-than-500-red-lionfish-caught-in-keys/

[Mattmcf]

It's a real problem in FL. You cant dive a ledge off of the East Coast w/o seeing them. I spearfish often in 60-90 ft of water and see them every dive. Good news is, they actually taste really good and are super easy to harvest/prepare. Plus, since they are invasive there is no size/quantity limits!

[albano]

... from ballast tanks of large ships.
+1....but , if it is a hobbiest, I hope he starts releasing some red sea regal angels!

[greenbean36191]

Genetic testing has pretty conclusively ruled out ballast water as the source of introduction. This is the result of captive releases (intentional or unintentional).

[Dustin1300]

If anyone is releaing expensive fish off the coast feel free to PM me and I will take and pay for shipping;) Also, how did the 'conclusively' determine they did not originate from ballast of ships?

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

[rgfast]

if you get coral magazine the July/Aug volume 7 number 5 has complete write up on this

[AquaReeferMan]

Unfortunately, due to hobbyist, this has become a huge problem up and down the east coast.

Well there was a nice article on a website showing how their numbers keep growing but I guess
RC isnt friends with them... PM me if anyone wants the link...

[Beaun]

Todd Gardner, from Atlantis Marine World, was the first to catch one all the way up here. He has a good article in AdvancedAquarist about them. The leading theory right now is that it was an accidental release from a Hurricane (Andrew I think)

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2006/6
http://en.microcosmaquariumexplorer.com/wiki/Altantic-Bred_Lionfishes

[agsprat]

Went diving the bahamas in April. Saw dozens of them!

[Pickupman66]

* In the spring of 2007, I went diving on some wrecks off North Carolina to see some adult lionfish first hand. I collected one, filleted it and ate it so I could be speaking from experience when I lecture to people that they are not poisonous, but rather, venomous.

* The meat was great.

That is very interesting....

[nixer]

released thats a joke thats what the hsus and the usgs come up with when they find something. last time i checked fish swim in the ocean and the ocean has no fences, but what do i know im niether a tax dodging activist group nor a crooked usgs thug that takes payouts from the other

[noahm]

I am quite sure ballast water has contributed to all kinds of underwater species traslocation. My dad was a ship captain and said he was absolutely amazed at how fish picked up in Panama would still be swimming in the ballast water in port in Alaska. The amount that hobbyists dump is quite small compared to how many fish get transferred around the world in ballast.

That being said, I don't know how likely some aquarium species like the lionfish are to get sucked up in ballast water as it is taken in away from reefs. Not to mention that lionfish have been a hugely popular marine fish since saltwater tanks have been around. I would bet that most populations of this particular fish are from countless fish dumped by aquarists early on and still some probably today. It is really too late to do anything about it, but it will surely impact the reef system heavily as they are pretty predatory. Think large mouth bass--another heavily introduced species. They just have to figure out a way to turn it into a sport fish.

[anbosu]

Genetic testing has pretty conclusively ruled out ballast water as the source of introduction. This is the result of captive releases (intentional or unintentional).

Link? I don't see how genetic testing could determine how a fish got to a location unless lionfish have a GPS gene that tracks their movements.

[noahm]

Link? I don't see how genetic testing could determine how a fish got to a location unless lionfish have a GPS gene that tracks their movements.

The way I think you could rule it out is if the lionfish tested were from locations that have little or no interocean shipping traffic. Enough genetic testing has been done on some species to differentiate pretty precise location of origin.

[frozenreefer]

seems like alot of species are just dumped in florida its too bad if people knew what they were doing...well they wouldnt care anyway i guess...too bad

[Dustin1300]

The way I think you could rule it out is if the lionfish tested were from locations that have little or no interocean shipping traffic. Enough genetic testing has been done on some species to differentiate pretty precise location of origin.

I guess this is plausible considering you could trace out the origin and then also examine the shipping routes. Either way still a stretch and would not be a very conclusive guess:hmm4:

[greenbean36191]

Every population has a distinct genetic fingerprint. By comparing the genetic signature present in the invasive population with those present in natural populations, you can determine which population was the source of the invasion- i.e. what part of the world they came from. The amount of genetic diversity present also tells you the number of individuals who contributed their genes.

The genetic evidence shows that all of the Atlantic lions trace their ancestry back to 6 females and an unknown number of males, all from a single region in Indonesia. That finding of at least 7 individuals in the founding population is significant for 2 reasons. First is that during Hurricane Andrew, about 6 lionfish are reported to have escaped into Biscayne Bay, near the area with the first reports of an established population.

The more important reason though is there have only ever been 3 recorded cases of ballast water introduction of scorpionfish anywhere in the world and none of those became established. That suggests that ballast water transport of scorpionfish is a rare event. On the other hand, having not 1, but at least 7 individuals in the founding population all hailing from the same region, would require ballast water introductions to be a common event. However, if you do assume it's a common event, it's extremely difficult to explain why there were 7 introductions to one small area in the Atlantic (since you need a certain population density to form a breeding population), yet there are none anywhere else in the world, especially near the entrances to the Suez or Panama canals, where any ship avoiding the Southern Ocean would have had to pump out ballast water. It's also hard to explain why all of the founding population came from the same small region, and not from throughout the lionfish's native range.

The genetic study is here: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1095-8649.2007.01575.x/abstract

[anbosu]

Every population has a distinct genetic fingerprint. By comparing the genetic signature present in the invasive population with those present in natural populations, you can determine which population was the source of the invasion- i.e. what part of the world they came from. The amount of genetic diversity present also tells you the number of individuals who contributed their genes.

The genetic evidence shows that all of the Atlantic lions trace their ancestry back to 6 females and an unknown number of males, all from a single region in Indonesia. That finding of at least 7 individuals in the founding population is significant for 2 reasons. First is that during Hurricane Andrew, about 6 lionfish are reported to have escaped into Biscayne Bay, near the area with the first reports of an established population.

The more important reason though is there have only ever been 3 recorded cases of ballast water introduction of scorpionfish anywhere in the world and none of those became established. That suggests that ballast water transport of scorpionfish is a rare event. On the other hand, having not 1, but at least 7 individuals in the founding population all hailing from the same region, would require ballast water introductions to be a common event. However, if you do assume it's a common event, it's extremely difficult to explain why there were 7 introductions to one small area in the Atlantic (since you need a certain population density to form a breeding population), yet there are none anywhere else in the world, especially near the entrances to the Suez or Panama canals, where any ship avoiding the Southern Ocean would have had to pump out ballast water. It's also hard to explain why all of the founding population came from the same small region, and not from throughout the lionfish's native range.

The genetic study is here: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1095-8649.2007.01575.x/abstract


Thanks for sharing, and I am being completely serious.

I guess I don't see why this would eliminate the ballast water theory though. Don't ships carry thousands of gallons of ballast water? Wouldn't it almost be MORE likely that these 15 lionfish (or whatever the number is) were all in the same ballast water rather than someone setting up a breeding operation and getting all of the fish from the same source in the same small area?

[greenbean36191]

The 6 founding females are from genetically distinct lineages- i.e. not sisters, so regardless of how they got here, either at least 7 adult fish or the larvae/eggs from 6 different broods were transported from one region of Indonesia to Florida.

With an aquarium introduction that's very easy to explain since we know that A) there were scattered lionfish in Biscayne Bay prior to 1992, B) about 6 lionfish escaped into Biscayne Bay in 1992, and C) the area of Indonesia where this population originated is one of the most important centers of aquarium collection.

That does pose major problems for the ballast water hypothesis because we know that ballast water transport of scorpionfish is rare (and no lionfish have ever been found in ballast water). Their size and reproductive patterns don't make this method of transport very likely for them. There are also no known cases of more than 1 scorpionfish surviving a trip in a single ship's ballast (and all 3 of the known occurrances were shorter journeys). Even if we assume the founding population was the minimum of 7 individuals, that's more than twice as many fish as are known to have made the journey in over 100 years and 7 times as many as have ever been found on a single ship. It's possible, but unlikely.

Again, assuming that all 7 of those fish made it on a single voyage, it's really hard to explain why so many got on that one ship, but multiple fish haven't done it before or since. 7 fish on one ship suggests that it's fairly easy for them to hitch along, so if that's the case there should be introductions all over the place, particularly near major ports and canals. Any ship going from Indonesia to the east coast of the US has to either go south, into the Southern Ocean where the temperature would kill the fish, or through the Suez or Panama canals. Before they go through the canals, ships have to pump their tanks, so if these ships frequently carry lionfish, there should be populations of Indonesian lions near the entrances of the canals- but there aren't (except the naturally occurring P. miles in the Gulf of Suez).

If we assume that all 7 of the fish came in on different ships, explaining the distribution and genetic diversity is still problematic because it still means that picking up and transporting one or two of these fish is a frequent occurrence. If that's the case, why are ONLY the fish from this one area of Indonesia being picked up despite the fact that these fish occur throughout the tropical Indian and Pacific ocean? Then, despite all of the other places Indonesian ships go, many of which are much closer to home, why haven't these fish established breeding populations anywhere but the southern US? Most importantly, why haven't the fish that have been transported here since the population became established contributed additional genetic diversity?

[chilwil84]

Dont we have 2 species now becoming a problem in the atlantic.

[reefinder]

i speared about 12 lionfish and couple weeks ago in the Bahamas. we did not eat them but i will try it soon, i live in the treasure coast of Florida and they are everywhere down here also.

[greenbean36191]

P. volitans and P. miles (which are virtually identical) were both present in the founding population, but probably only a single female of P. miles. As a result, 93% of the fish are pure P. volitans. The rest have P. miles genes, but there are probably few if any pure P. miles.

[chilwil84]

found this thought it was interesting "Atlantic Coast of Mainland USA
The first confirmed record of lionfish occurrence
in the USA was a specimen taken by a lobster
fisherman off Dania, Florida in October 1985
(Morris and Akins In Press)."


While we know the population has exploded recently there were earlier sightings that predate the aquarium release in the early 90s

[chilwil84]

another
"Lack of genetic differentiation between Bahamian
and North Carolina P. volitans suggests
they share a similar source (e.g., east coast of
Florida; Freshwater et al. 2009a). While both
P. miles and P. volitans occur off the US
Atlantic coast (Hamner et al. 2007; Morris and
Freshwater 2008); thus far only P. volitans has
been recovered from Bahamian waters
(Freshwater et al. 2009a)"