30 gal sump/ fug

[hayes_101]

I picked up a 36 X 12 1/2 X 17 tank that I am turning into a sump/fug tank. I have a 600GPH overflow box on order along with a 800gph return pump and a
Bubble Magus BM100 Protein Skimmer I am in the design stage and I have kinda an idea of what I want but I don't know if this idea will work I have a design pick it is nothing fancy it took like 10 min to make. pleas pick it apart I want to know if there will be potential problems and show me what you have done. my stuff should be here within 2 weeks so I have a deadline.. lol.

http://i55.*******.com/28qymux.jpg

[TTrout]

The sump is pretty much the same as mine, just bigger. I would take out the bubble trap from the fuge, the drain check valve (water isn't going back up to tank), and the return check valve going back in to skimmer chamber.

Also check valves fail so I would drill a hole in your return, inch or so below water surface. Also, to control flow a little better through fuge and less bubbles, I would use your return instead of the drain. Put ball valves on drain, return, and return going to fuge; that you'll be able control flow in to the sump from drain and your returns flow to the tank and fuge.

[uncleof6]

Remove and do nut use valves of any type in the drain line. Use a single drain line to the skimmer section. (Unless you go to a siphon system)

Valve in return line to control flow rate to the tank, and a branch with valve to control flow to the "fuge."

Your baffles in the sump are too high. Do not rely on check valves and holes drilled in the return line to prevent a flood, no matter what. Lower your baffles in the sump till you have sufficient extra volume in the sump to contain all power out drain down. Sump should run ~ half full. If you need more "sump" than you got-- get a bigger sump. Bigger sump won't fit? Get a bigger tank, you will be better off with the bigger tank anyway..... ;)

Jim

[hayes_101]

ya the main tank is just a 55 gal. and I think i miss labeled the valves. the valves are just for flow adjustment, I figure where I have more water volume going out than in I needed them. I am so new to this and plumbing is not really my thing. I understand pictures more than I do words!
I really appreciate the help!
o and some one told me on another site that I do not need the 1st and last baffle after the skimmer section is that true?
I will some day have a much bigger tank but for know I want to git use to the hole sett up on a small scale before going big

[j.p. harrington]

i would remove all the bubble baffles. i have a 30 gallon sump/fuge with no baffles i did put ball valves on the drain lines to control my flow down into the fuge and skimmer area. i also did put a check valve on my return pump so if power did go out the tank wouldnt drain back throught the pump as my retrun lines are below the oveflow the water will drain to its lowest point which is my return line so that solved that problem i also put a ball valve in my return pump line but havnt used it once everything got going it all flowed perfect ill see if i can find a pic

[j.p. harrington]

http://img839.imageshack.us/img839/3301/newsump.jpg

this is b4 i installed the check valve this pic is actually just right after fillup i didnt even remember how it looked

[uncleof6]

ya the main tank is just a 55 gal. and I think i miss labeled the valves. the valves are just for flow adjustment, I figure where I have more water volume going out than in I needed them. I am so new to this and plumbing is not really my thing. I understand pictures more than I do words!
I really appreciate the help!
o and some one told me on another site that I do not need the 1st and last baffle after the skimmer section is that true?
I will some day have a much bigger tank but for know I want to git use to the hole sett up on a small scale before going big

The need or lack of need for the bubble trap, is system dependent. The anecdote, really cannot be used to determine whether or not you need the bubble trap.

The concepts involved with a bubble trap, depend on three things:

1) The drains
2) The skimmer
3) The size/design of the sump (distance from the skimmer/drain entrance and the pump intake.

The drains:

If you are using a siphon system, such as beananimal's design, the drains (if constructed and adjusted properly) will not introduce bubbles into the sump. A bubble trap would not be needed to help control bubbles in the rest of the sump due to the drains.

If you are using open channel drains, ie anything that is not a "siphon", that allows air into the drain lines, regardless of how/where the air enters, you will generally have bubble issues (as well as others,) and a bubble trap is almost always going to be a necessity.

Again, it is system dependent, and just because reefer x gets away with it, does not mean that you can.

The skimmer:

If you have a quality skimmer, set up and adjusted per the manufacturers instructions (not reefer x's anecdotal recommendations) there should be no bubbles escaping the skimmer, and a bubble trap would not be needed to control bubbles from the skimmer.

If you have junk (read) cheap skimmer and/or a skimmer modified and adjusted because reefer x says it works great this way, the likely hood of bubbles escaping the skimmer is greater, and a bubble trap will probably be needed.

The size/design of the sump:

The distance from the source of the bubbles to the pump intake can be used to control bubbles hitting the pump, and going up to the display.

If your sump is setup skimmer>"fuge">return, the likely hood of NEEDING a bubble trap is reduced.

If your sump is set up like this one, skimmer>return>"fuge," depending on 1 and 2 discussed above, a bubble trap is more likely to be needed.

http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu274/uncleof6/sump3-6.jpg

The setup below, though the same "logic" as the previous sump, places the intake to the pump the maximum distance from the bubble sources, and accomplishes the same thing as skimmer>"fuge">return, with the benefits of the skimmer>return>"fuge" type sump. Depending on degree of bubbles entering the sump, a bubble trap may or may not be needed.

http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu274/uncleof6/337galloncustom3.jpg

Other considerations:

The height of the drop from the "fuge" section, can create bubbles in the return section. An additional bubble trap after the "drop" could be needed (or a max distance from the source of the bubbles to the pump intake)

A sump requires 1 baffle, in any scenario, if an in-sump skimmer is used. No baffle, means the water level in the sump (the whole thing being a skimmer area) will vary, and this causes irratic/reduced skimmer performance. It is necessary to maintain a constant water level for the skimmer. The only thing that maintains a constant water level is a baffle. Those using baffle-less sumps, with in-sump skimmers, are doing themselves a disservice-- regardless of anecdote to the contrary.

System design is an integrated "science:" all parts working together as a whole, not just individual items-- each designed to minimize cost/complexity. You usually end up with a mess, that does not work as planned (not always, but increased odds against you.) Each individual item affects what needs to be done with the other components.

Again, just because reefer x does it this way or that, does not mean your system will react in a similar manner. You can design the whole system to not need a bubble trap in the sump, or you can design a system that will absolutely need a bubble trap. What you need to do/use depends on YOUR system, not someone elses. There is sufficient information on system design, in just a handful of threads on RC, from which you can design and run a system that will work as expected: The first time.

As far as tank size goes, smaller tanks are more unstable, and building a small one, then moving up-- you basically pay for everything TWICE. Ultimately you will save time and money, by putting forth the maximum effort possible (without becoming homeless ;) ) out of the gate.

Jim

[hayes_101]

ya well I don't have the basement finished so putting a 180+ down there is a little out of the question! that won't be for a few years! my equipment is more than enough for about a 100 gal upgrade some day. since I could not drill my tank I had to settle for a overflow box it can go from a 600 to and 800 GPH. it has 2 sections 1 in the tank that can be adjusted and the other section hangs on the back and connecting them is a U like pipe. if you can picture it. so this is what i got along with a 800gph return and a bubble magus.
so what you gave me was very informative and the picks help! so are you suggesting I base my design on the pic? i looks like mine with a few adjustments made to it.
again thanks for the info!

[uncleof6]

Was not suggesting that you build exactly as drawn, however I can guarantee that it would work the first time out of the box. The idea was more to show bubble trap vs no bubble trap, and some of the things that determine need.

The drain system in both is bubble free (see bean animals design), the difference is the skimmer: The first graphic skimmer is representative of "junk" = bubble trap needed. The second is implied BK (actually used in this system) + distance to pump intake = no bubble trap.

As for the actual design of the two sumps, with a 30 gallon tank, you won't have room to do the second, and doing the first would be pushing it: using a "fuge" with enough volume to give benefit. However, it will be hard to come up with a better design in terms of form and function + flexibility.

I disagree that the equipment that you are planning/have will be suitable for an upgrade to a 180. (pump, overflow, sump, skimmer)

Jim

[hayes_101]

I know the equipment I have will not do a 180 upgrade but I can git away with a 100 gal upgrade with some modifications of course.

[hayes_101]

ok so I ran into a bit of a snag! I checked all over this crap hole of a town and I cannot git 1" pvc pipe any where or abs or CPVC (which by the way is really expensive!) so as I was so politely told I will have to go with flex pipe for every thing, I was able to git 1 flow regulator a T and some other crap but I am stumped on how to plumb the return into my tank.
I mean on the + side of things it will be easier to run everything around. any way any insight will be appreciated! and yes I will be pressure testing every thing before installing!

[Ryjack26]

was that done in inventor?

[hayes_101]

was what done?

[hvacman250]

Who sells flex but not 1" PVC. Any Lowes, Home Depot, or plumbing supply WILL have 1" PVC. Even an HVAC supply house usually has 1" PVC.

[uncleof6]

was that done in inventor?

Sketchup

[uncleof6]

Who sells flex but not 1" PVC. Any Lowes, Home Depot, or plumbing supply WILL have 1" PVC. Even an HVAC supply house usually has 1" PVC.


In Nova Scotia? Well maybe, maybe not......

[hayes_101]

well in yarmouth we have a home hardware, Kents and pleasant supplies. and they don't carry any thing for me at all! I wanted to build a tank and they don't sell the acrylic or the glass thick enough. it really is hard to do what you want with a aquarium in a place like this! I have to order most things from e-bay and the fish and other supplies I have to travel 2 to 3 hr to get there!

[hayes_101]

one more question for you how much room do I leave for my skimmer in the sump. and where it said Immersed water level 27 to 30 cm is that how high I make my baffles?

[uncleof6]

You need enough space in your skimmer section to allow the skimmer to fit in, plus a little wiggle room, so you can get it out if necessary.

That is kinda high for skimmer water level, but if that is what it says, that is how high the skimmer baffle (or first and last baffle of bubble trap) needs to be.

Jim

[hayes_101]

the skimmer is a bubble magus BM150. and I think some one said earlier I do not need the 3 baffle design just to use the first 2 so do I just make my first baffle as high as needed?

[uncleof6]

If you are going to have bubbles in your sump either from an open channel drain line or escaping a low end/maladjusted skimmer, then you will need three baffles for your bubble trap, designed as above. Two baffles don't work worth snot, if you need to deal with bubbles. I don't place much stock in recommendations that "short circuit" designs.

First baffle, required water level for your skimmer. 2nd baffle 1" or so off the floor of the sump, and 1" or so above the first baffle (no it don't have to go all the way to the top-- as this decreases room for power out drain down) 3rd baffle same as the first.

Jim

[hayes_101]

thanks. and I did not think my skimmer was a low end type was I wrong in getting it?

[uncleof6]

thanks. and I did not think my skimmer was a low end type was I wrong in getting it?

I am not saying it is low end, that was not really the intent. It was intended more in a generic sense, in that "low end" skimmers can be bubble factories, and that maladjusted skimmers (regardless of quality) are bubble factories (bubbles escaping that is).

Jim

[hayes_101]

I am just going to takeout the "from tank line" to the fug and replace it with a line that runs from return to the fug. I guess it is what every one is doing

[hayes_101]

I finally got every thing running tonight but now I have a noise problem and I don't know why. my skimmer is next to silent same with my return pump, my overflow is very quiet well at the part that hangs over the main tank any way. then after that there is a noise problem. I am using 1" flex pipe from my tank to the sump and I am using 3/4" from the return pump back to the tank.
From what I can see in the pipe there seams to be a lot of air in my line going from the tank into the skimmer section. I get a lot of bubble noise from that one hose.
I know that the flex hose is not the way to go but I am very very limited where I am but maybe I missed something, I know that it kinda looks like a mess but the wires are now all tied up properly.
Here are the pics. from start to finish. I only let the system run for about 3 to 4 min should I give it more time to flush the air out of the lines? any way don't be to harsh on me this is my first time!
http://i51.*******.com/2qjxboj.jpg
http://i51.*******.com/oubpg0.jpg
http://i51.*******.com/j97d4x.jpg
the largest of the 2 is going into the skimmer section (the problem)
http://i54.*******.com/14b0uf8.jpg
http://i53.*******.com/14y4ozm.jpg
http://i55.*******.com/5dl8xf.jpg

[uncleof6]

What kind of drain standpipe are you trying to run there? Looks like a siphon standpipe (no air.) If that is the case, your standpipe/drain is sucking air.

Put a valve in the drain line, and close a bit at a time till the water level raises in the overflow box, and the standpipe stops sucking air. The water level will probably be just above the top of the elbow in the overflow box.

OR

You standpipe and/or drain line is not sealed and has an air leak.

OR

Both.

Jim

[hayes_101]

there are holes drilled in the white pvc pipe in the overflow and I was able to pressure test the line before using it and there are no leaks. so I will get another valve and try it! thanks

[hayes_101]

could my problem also be that my drain pipe is submersed in the sump?

[uncleof6]

there are holes drilled in the white pvc pipe in the overflow and I was able to pressure test the line before using it and there are no leaks. so I will get another valve and try it! thanks

Could not see the holes in the picture. Holes in the pipe make it an open channel. And back to the "original" answer I was going to give, but changed because the standpipe looks like a siphon.

The flow rate is too high, and the pipe diameter is too small. Standard issue problem with air/water mix drains. A valve won't help, it will exacerbate the issue. Slow the flow rate at the return pump, till the problem stops. For 1" pipe, it is going to be very low. With 1.5" pipe, you would likely have problems at ~350 gph.

The air hole for the standpipe should be top center of the "top cap", but that won't make it perform any better.

could my problem also be that my drain pipe is submersed in the sump?

No.

Jim

[hayes_101]

I have a t with a valve in it that goes from the return to the fug and even with that wide open I still git a lot of air lock noise from the drain. so would having the valve above the T on the return help? It would cause more back pressure into the T and into the fug right? or am I just screwed?

[uncleof6]

The problem is with the standpipe/drain line, not anything to do with the return line, per se. The flow rate is too high for the 1" standpipe/drain line. The flow rate needs to be slowed down till the problem clears, or at least becomes tolerable. With 1" pipe, that flow rate will be quite low, probably as a guess, less than 100 gph, to get laminar flow (non turbulent.)

The valve in the return line should be above the "T" going to the "fuge." You need another valve in the branch to to the "fuge." The flow rate through the tank is controlled by the valve in the return line, and the balance will flow to the "fuge", controlled by the second valve. The pump will not "see" a significant increase in head pressure.

See drawings earlier in this thread for valve placement.

Jim

[hayes_101]

I am picking up another valve tomorrow after work to hopefully solve my problem. the instructions were very vague when it came to setting up the skimmer so how high should I adjust the bubbles in the chamber?

[uncleof6]

Got me, I don't have the destructions memorized... ;)

[hayes_101]

ha ha... I just thought they were all kinda the same. I did not know if the bubbles should be breaking near the top of the collection chamber or not

[hayes_101]

I just set up the other valve and wow what a deference there is no noise at all from it! I cant thank you enough for the info you gave me!