Aquarist and the fish they own

[cb711]

What percentage of aquarists have ever had a fish in an aquarium that was not suitable? Ex: a hippo tang in a 55 gallon tank
What percentage of aquarists found a proper home for that fish once he had outgrown the tank? Ex: fellow aquarist, petstore

I believe that over 90% have had a fish in an unsuitable aquarium and over 90% would find a proper home for that fish. Excluding the shark owners.

[Toddrtrex]

Didn't like the way the other thread was going?

Where are you pulling these numbers from?

And your question is very very slanted, since you used the word "ever" -- you know what, when I was started out in the hobby I made that MISTAKE, and learned from it. I no longer purchase fish that can't live their lifespan in my current tank.

[cb711]

Didn't like the way the other thread was going?



Didn't want to hijack it anymore.

Where are you pulling these numbers from?

Did you miss the "I BELIEVE" part

So what do you think the numbers are?

I no longer purchase fish that can't live their lifespan in my current tank.

This is being judgemental. Didn't you parents ever tell you not to do something that they have done, but you did it anyways?

[Toddrtrex]

No, I didn't miss it, but you couldn't have just pulled that percentage out of the air, should have had some reason for using it.

[jasonrp104]

When I first started I had a horrible stocklist and it was next to impossible to get rid of the fish I had to get rid of. Then a midwinter power outage wiped them all out. I will never overstock/ oversize a fish again.

In a perfect world, I was supposed to have a 6' 150 by now. This and that have prevented it from happening all summer. I don't see it happening until next summer now

[Dino]

I think you're going to find the same answer in this thread as the other one ;). No matter what you seem to think it is IRRESPONSIBLE.

And no, I never have. Even in my freshwater and reptile days I always made sure to do my research first to make sure the environment they would be going into was appropriate for the duration of their life.

[Wolverine]

I believe that over 90% have had a fish in an unsuitable aquarium and over 90% would find a proper home for that fish. Excluding the shark owners.

I'm sure over 90% for the first part. I highly doubt the second. Probably closer in the range of 10% find a proper home. The larger a fish is, the fewer potential proper homes for it. Many of these fish just die where they are, because poor fish selection is often associated with poor husbandry in other avenues of the hobby.

[cb711]

I think you're going to find the same answer in this thread as the other one ;). No matter what you seem to think it is IRRESPONSIBLE.



I'm not saying it isn't irresponsible. I am just saying people do it and we need to acknowledge it and work on it. Because you think I am the only one that has ever done it? It seems that I am the only one to acknowledge it.

Please post what you believe the numbers are

[cb711]

I'm sure over 90% for the first part. I highly doubt the second. Probably closer in the range of 10% find a proper home. The larger a fish is, the fewer potential proper homes for it. Many of these fish just die where they are, because poor fish selection is often associated with poor husbandry in other avenues of the hobby.

Thank you for picking a number. Maybe I can learn from the 10% number because I am way off, but I might not be one of those people.

[KafudaFish]

100% and 100%.

See I agree with you. You are right and my numbers back up everything you are trying to prove.

Ignore those professionals and hobby nuts (Dino for one) that research and understand their limitations before going through all of this. What do they know?

[Dino]

Because you think I am the only one that has ever done it?

Where have I ever said that?

I'm not saying it isn't irresponsible. I am just saying people do it and we need to acknowledge it and work on it.

If you know its irresponsible and "we need to acknowledge and work on it" why are you advocating for it?

[cb711]

100% and 100%.

See I agree with you. You are right and my numbers back up everything you are trying to prove.

Ignore those professionals and hobby nuts (Dino for one) that research and understand their limitations before going through all of this. What do they know?

This is reef discussion not factional information. As far as I know there hasn't been any research on this, so how do they know either. No one knows the numbers.

[cb711]

If you know its irresponsible and "we need to acknowledge and work on it" why are you advocating for it?

Not obstaining from certain actions because it is inevitable but planning better.
So, what do you think the numbers are?

[Stuart60611]

I'm not saying it isn't irresponsible. I am just saying people do it and we need to acknowledge it and work on it. Because you think I am the only one that has ever done it? It seems that I am the only one to acknowledge it.

Please post what you believe the numbers are

This is such a foolish thread. Your asking people to post percentages on something where no one has any emperical basis to calculate this. It is like asking people here to post what percentage of the United States wanted the Bears to beat the Packers last night. Should we just pick an arbitrary number and then conclude the arbitrary selection is predicated on fact. I do not quarrel with the notion that many hobbyiests fail to select suitable fish for their particular system size and that many of these hobbyiests fail to provide a new home for the fish once it outgrows the system. As to the percentage of either, without a scientific sampling there is absolutely no predicate to quantify this issue with any further precission.

[cb711]

This is such a foolish thread. Your asking people to post percentages on something where no one has any emperical basis to calculate this. It is like asking people here to post what percentage of the United States wanted the Bears to beat the Packers last night. Should we just pick an arbitrary number and then conclude the arbitrary selection is predicated on fact. I do not quarrel with the notion tha many hobbyiests fail to select suitable fish for their particular system size and that many of these hobbyiests fail to provide a new home for the fish once it outgrows the system. As to the percentage of either, without a scientific sampling there is absolutely no predicate to quantify this issue with any further precission.

You don't have to post it is optional. You don't even need to read it.
I am an analytical person, so I like to see numbers

[Stuart60611]

You don't have to post it is optional. You don't even need to read it.
I am an analytical person, so I like to see numbers


As a purported analytical person, would you not want some credible basis to support how such numbers were arrived at? Posting numbers on something like this only has value when you base the numbers on something other than arbitrary conjecture.

[cb711]

As a purported analytical person, would you not want some credible basis to support how such numbers were arrived at? Posting numbers on something like this only has value when you base the numbers on something other than arbitrary conjecture.

Thank you for adding nothing to this thread.:thumbdown

[Wolverine]

I am an analytical person, so I like to see numbers

If that's the case then I'm sure you recognize the idea of "garbage in, garbage out"; you're be analyzing made up numbers.

[Stuart60611]

Thank you for adding nothing to this thread.:thumbdown


Your welcome, and I added exactly to this thread what it is worth, nothing.

[cb711]

If that's the case then I'm sure you recognize the idea of "garbage in, garbage out"; you're be analyzing made up numbers.

Well I was surprise to see someone post that 10% find a suitable home. That made me think. Why didn't you?
Why did only 10% do this? Why not?

[cb711]

I am not putting anyone on trial I am just asking for opinions. That is what a discussion is.

[lucidheights]

why not make a poll? It beats having people chastise you on this thread. If it matters any, i've known many aquarists and all of them have broken a rule or two when it came to fish selection. It seems we all do it, some of us learn and others do not. If you ask me, keeping any type of fish in any type of tank is cruel on some level.

[Stuart60611]

I am not putting anyone on trial I am just asking for opinions. That is what a discussion is.


Think about what you are saying. This is hobby grounded in science. There is a well-established mathmatical and scientific process for determining such percentages. Is it even reasonable to request those involved in a scientific hobby to offer opinions on percentages that only can be determined by a well-recognized mathmatical and scientific sampling? Would you ask a drug manufacturer whether a drug is safe to be injested by humans without any scientiic study of the safety of the drug? We stoped centuries ago guessing at such things and now recognize that only science and math truly have the answers to such inquires.

[cb711]

If you ask me, keeping any type of fish in any type of tank is cruel on some level.

Yea I found myself watch wale wars this summer and I believed that was cruel, but what am I doing in my home. Not on purpose, but fish die and not the way nature intended it.

[KafudaFish]

why not make a poll? It beats having people chastise you on this thread. If it matters any, i've known many aquarists and all of them have broken a rule or two when it came to fish selection. It seems we all do it, some of us learn and others do not. If you ask me, keeping any type of fish in any type of tank is cruel on some level.

So you admit that you are a cruel person?

I am not nor do I consider anyone in this hobby or any other that includes keeping animals.

What are corals? Is that cruel?

[cb711]

So you admit that you are a cruel person?

I am not nor do I consider anyone in this hobby or any other that includes keeping animals.

What are corals? Is that cruel?

Yes and I speed too.

[cb711]

Think about what you are saying. This is hobby grounded in science. There is a well-established mathmatical and scientific process for determining such percentages. Is it even reasonable to request those involved in a scientific hobby to offer opinions on percentages that only can be determined by a well-recognized mathmatical and scientific sampling. Would you ask a drug manufacturer whether a drug is safe to be injested by humans without any scientiic study of the safety of the drug?. We stoped centuries ago guessing on such things and now recognize that only science and math truly have the answers to such inquires.

Should I just ask these questions:

Have you ever had a fish in an aquarium that was not suitable? Ex: a hippo tang in a 55 gallon tank
Have you ever displaced a fish from your tank to a suitable home for that fish once he had outgrown the tank? Ex: fellow aquarist, petstore

[cb711]

So you admit that you are a cruel person?



I am sure there are many people that believe that what we are doing is cruel.

[Stuart60611]

Should I just ask these questions:

Have you ever had a fish in an aquarium that was not suitable? Ex: a hippo tang in a 55 gallon tank
Have you ever displaced a fish from your tank to a suitable home for that fish once he had outgrown the tank? Ex: fellow aquarist, petstore


Much better approach for a reasonable discussion of the topic. I think it is a good idea to discuss this. I just have a hard time with the idea of forming arbitrary percentages on the topic and then discussing these baseless percentages as if there is any reasonable basis to do so.

[lucidheights]

To you i may not be cruel, but to an animal activist i may be. At some level, i know that keeping these animals is immoral, but i accept the tradeoff between the pleasure i attain from watching them swim around in my room, and the fact that i am removing them from their natural habitat. The truth is that we ARE removing them from their natural habitat, whether that is cruel or not depends on who you ask, doesn't it?

[cb711]

Much better approach for a reasonable discussion of the topic. I think it is a good idea to discuss this. I just have a hard time with the idea of forming arbitrary percentages on the topic and then discussing these baseless percentages as if there is any reasonable basis to do so.

The problem with this method is that the persons that have done wrong will not post or get involved. Because I have now seen how negative some can be for just asking a question that they do not agree with what the answer is.

[Stuart60611]

The problem with this method is that the persons that have done wrong will not post or get involved. Because I have now seen how negative some can be for just asking a question that they do not agree with what the answer is.

It is not that people are being negative because they disagree with the answer. People are being negative at arriving at such percentages because there is absolutely no plausible way to fairly discuss such percentages without arriving at them with some accepted mathmatical and scientific process. You cannot discuss whether a conclusion is correct or not without the conclusion being based on something other than pure conjecture.

[Shiandy]

Slightly off topic, but thought you mind find this survey interesting http://www.takelifeeasy.com/reefsuk/articles/unsustainablelivestock.php

Here's a little quote from it :

Now That You Know The Species Is Difficult To Maintain Or Provide For, Would This Stop You Purchasing Another?
Out of the 9 people that kept fish that were listed as unsuitable for captivity, 8 said that they would not stop buying the fish and the other 1 person was undecided.

[jmski333]

whether your Pseudo numbers are correct or not does that mean you support people to purchase fish that they can not support? We are trying to lower these number that you believe are close estimates. Just because other people do it does not make it ok and does not mean we should recommend others to do so.

[KafudaFish]

To you i may not be cruel, but to an animal activist i may be. At some level, i know that keeping these animals is immoral, but i accept the tradeoff between the pleasure i attain from watching them swim around in my room, and the fact that i am removing them from their natural habitat. The truth is that we ARE removing them from their natural habitat, whether that is cruel or not depends on who you ask, doesn't it?

What if they were born in your tank?

[jmski333]

maybe you should start a pole to get more accurate numbers

[Stuart60611]

maybe you should start a pole to get more accurate numbers


At least that would have some plausible basis for arriving at the numbers. However, as I am sure you can appreciate, such polling data is flawed on so many levels, such as the sampling of particpants, the way the polling question was asked, etc. Nevertheless, it is at least something other then making up a number in your head and concluding the number is based on something other than your own thoughts.

[bleedfire]

I like fish,
they swim around
in the tank
in my living room,
I like to get compliments
I hate to get criticise
there my fish

[cb711]

What if they were born in your tank?

They would have been born naturally in the wild if their parents were not captured.

[cb711]

I like fish,
they swim around
in the tank
in my living room,
I like to get compliments
I hate to get criticise
there my fish

I love to watch mine eat. I probably overfeed them, but I believe they are happy when they eat. So I probably overfeed.

[jmski333]

At least that would have some plausible basis for arriving at the numbers. However, as I am sure you can appreciate, such polling data is flawed on so many levels, such as the sampling of particpants, the way the polling question was asked, etc. Nevertheless, it is at least something other then making up a number in your head and concluding the number is based on something other than your own thoughts.

to get the actual number are near impossible unless we went from tank to tank and noted which fish are in an unfit tank. A pole will help. sure some people will lie but hopefully since the poles are anonymous it will prevent most people from lying.

[bleedfire]

In the movie finding nemo, Nemo was caught because the diver thinks he was lost in the reef, when really his just trying to prove a point that he can swim even if his 1 fin short.

the moral of the movie is (for me) is dont keep fish if you don't know how to take care of it, its funny because the movie made kids want to buy there own Nemo and lots of the fish that was sold died.

or don't keep a Moorish Idol because because they pretend there dead... but most of the time they really are dead.

this has nothing to do with the topic

[cb711]

In the movie finding nemo, Nemo was caught because the diver thinks he was lost in the reef, when really his just trying to prove a point that he can swim even if his 1 fin short.

the moral of the movie is (for me) is dont keep fish if you don't know how to take care of it, its funny because the movie made kids want to buy there own Nemo and lots of the fish that was sold died.

or don't keep a Moorish Idol because because they pretend there dead... but most of the time they really are dead.

this has nothing to do with the topic


still very true though and something I never thought about.

[gofor100]

I'll play... The first saltwater fish I EVER bought was a Yellow Longnose Butterfly fish, and back then one publication stated that 50 gallons was the minimum tank size, while others said that 75 gallons was, while still other stated 90 gallons... at the time I only had my 60 gallon tank, and thought that since ONE of the publications stated that 50 gallons was a minimum size, that I would go ahead and purchase one. At first, it seemed more than happy in my 60 gallon, but as it grew, even though it was fat, it just didn't look right in a 4 foot long tank. In the end, after about 1 year, and after somehow introducing ich into the tank (an admittedly newbie mistake at the time), it was the ONLY fish to go :( Nor did I have a "good home" that I could have passed the fish along to if it would have survived... and I don't think its too far of a stretch to conclude that the "cramped quarters" and the stress it caused the butterfly to ultimately succumb to ich...

Needless to say, from that point on I vowed that I would never purchase a fish that, based on scientific data/research/publications, indicates a minimum tank size anywhere near the size of the tank I'm going to place it in... nor will I ever cram my fish tank so full of fish that they are bumping into each other everytime they move.

Thus, I hope to impart my knowledge/experience with others that have yet to make that mistake so that less fish have to die that way.

For someone to receive this information and ignore it (not saying anyone on this thread is doing this), is called ignorance, and is especially irresponsible when your decisions will affect a living creature.

[Wolverine]

Well I was surprise to see someone post that 10% find a suitable home. That made me think. Why didn't you?
Why did only 10% do this? Why not?

I didn't make me think too much since I was the "someone" who threw that number out there.

And with that, I see no further usefulness coming from this thread.