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M3P
10/11/2010, 04:29 PM
I built my sump using GE silicone 1, but didn't realize there was window and door as well as kitchen and bath. I accidentally used kitchen and bath the first time and then window and door when I made some mods. Has anyone used the kitchen and bath in their sumps with success or should I rebuild my sump? Again, this is GE1 not GE2.

uncleof6
10/11/2010, 04:42 PM
Other than silicone I is complete junk when it comes to adhesion? Nah, would not worry about it too much.....

Ocean's Edge
10/11/2010, 07:41 PM
if it is the kitchen and bath -- do not use it for aquariums -- there is a mold inhibitor that is lethal to a closed system... BAD BAD stuff....

M3P
10/11/2010, 07:47 PM
The only ingredient it had listed was methyltriacetoxysilane, which was also present in the window/door/attic formula. GE silicone II had a big label about how it had a 5 year mildew protection, but the silicone I formulas did not have any mention of this.

Ocean's Edge
10/11/2010, 07:52 PM
I have 4 tanks that were "prototype" tanks -- that we used the GE OTC K&B stuff from home depot cuz it was a sunday and granger was closed.. -- 2 years later -- fish still die in about 6 hours... and algae dies off in about 3 days....

M3P
10/11/2010, 08:07 PM
was it GE I or GE II?

Ocean's Edge
10/11/2010, 08:17 PM
no clue -- do not remember -- it was 2 years ago... and it was the last time we bought anything from home depot

Ocean's Edge
10/11/2010, 08:17 PM
i will see if we still have some tubes of it laying around --- we had 2 cases of it... and i know we didnt use it all...

Ocean's Edge
10/11/2010, 08:25 PM
it is GE silicone 1 K&B with bioseal

M3P
10/11/2010, 08:26 PM
I didn't see bioseal on the one I used...hmpf.

M3P
10/11/2010, 08:28 PM
What is the model number for that one? The one I used was GE612

Ocean's Edge
10/11/2010, 08:43 PM
now we are getting complicated -- i asked one of the other guys if he remembered what we used -- part numbers might be a stretch...

M3P
10/11/2010, 08:47 PM
Ok. So assuming I need to rebuild my sump because of the silicone, how should I go about cleaning the sand, rocks, and tank? Argh!

drauka99
10/11/2010, 08:49 PM
bioseal is the bad part

other than that I have had no problem with GE1 in any way.

M3P
10/11/2010, 08:52 PM
I guess what I really need to know is if people have used GE1 for Kitchen and Bath in a reef tank without problems. I used Kitchen/Bath first. If it needs to be changed I will have to remove the display to pull the sump out. Display is a 200 gallon, so you can understand why I really want to know before pulling the trigger on a redo.

Ocean's Edge
10/11/2010, 08:53 PM
the "bio seal" was the problem -- it leached/s something that kills everything... even momentive says it is not for food/FDA or aquaria... so if yours does not have the bio seal -- and does not have the mold/mildew inhibitor -- you might be ok... -- -- 2nd -- you would not need to rebuild the whole sump -- just scrape the inner bead of silicone with a razor -- get as the glass as clean as possible -- and re-bead the inside -- as for cleaning.. -- try running the system with carbon i would guess... we have never tried to fix the problem -- because they were just "fun" tanks -- so we didnt care if they just sat around and were used for pics -- or dust collectors

buy_baff
10/11/2010, 09:02 PM
I have used it with no problems what so ever.

capecoral
10/11/2010, 09:32 PM
I see a lot of "aquarium-safe" silicone... maybe that's best.

uncleof6
10/11/2010, 09:40 PM
I pretty much thought this whole issue was solved some time ago, but I guess not. Bio seal, is an ad gimmick, as if you look at the MSDS for Silicone II, you will find there are NO ingredients that are not common to many silicones-- and there are no proprietary ingredients. The only thing that differentiates Silicone I (any type) and Silicone II (any type) is that Silicone I is an Acetoxy cure product, and Silicone II is a neutral cure, and the MSDSs reflect this difference. Although it has been recommended for many many years, that an Acetoxy cure silicone be used for aquarium building, there is NO PROVEN evidence to indicate that Silicone II will kill your fish, or will not kill your fish. Too many have used silicone II with NO harmful effects for there to be a definitive answer. I still say use an Acetoxy cure silicone however.

Now down to business. GE Silicone I Kitchen & Bath, (GE612) is an acetoxy cure silicone. The only hazardous components are petroleum distillates, and Methyltriacetoxysilane. The only other stuff in it is treated filler (fumed silica-- just know that) and Dimethylpolysiloxane-- both non hazardous. GE Silicone I Window & Door (GE012A) is an acetoxy cure silicone. The hazardous components are-- yup you guessed it: Identical to GE612, and so are the non hazardous components. Same proportions-- identical in every respect. Chemically there is NO difference between the two. There are NO bioseal ingredients (and have not seen them in ANY silicone-- of course I have not read EVERY MSDS on the planet....)

I told you not to worry about it, but this alwasy comes up. So here is what you do:

When you are looking for silicone, you read the label. If the label says FDA approved, it is a sure bet that it is reef safe, if it doesn't say FDA approved, just assume it is "not safe"-- although that may or may not be.

I also told you the only mistake you made was using "junk" silicone. You used a consumer grade "sealant" to do the job of an industrial grade "adhesive". Lots of sumps have been built using GE012A, and are holding, so it CAN be done. However, using an industrial grade adhesive it turns into a "will" rather than "can." "Big Box" stores are not the place to buy silicone, and GE silicone I (GE012A) is about the weakest silicone there is-- the reason the labeling was changed from "Aquarium Sealant" (years ago) to "Not for use in aquariums-- it is questionable whether it will hold. Since the GE612 is IDENTICAL to GE012A, the same applies don't ya think?

When you are building a structure whether it be a sump, baffles, or a tank, there is no reason to use the cheapest weakest stuff you can get your hands on due to convenience of "big box." Get the best silicone you can use and that is Momentive RTV108, and not have to worry about these things.

Where? Grainger for one, and numerous online sources with some better prices. Average price is around $10 for a 10.1 oz cartridge.

Jim

drauka99
10/12/2010, 08:16 AM
I wish you could have told the GE1 in my sump that it doesn't work well. I had to take razor blades and a knife to it and I still ended up breaking the baffle trying to get it out to rearrange my sump.

chimmike
10/12/2010, 09:03 AM
I guess what I really need to know is if people have used GE1 for Kitchen and Bath in a reef tank without problems. I used Kitchen/Bath first. If it needs to be changed I will have to remove the display to pull the sump out. Display is a 200 gallon, so you can understand why I really want to know before pulling the trigger on a redo.

I think you're completely missing the fact that the silicone you used is not meant to be an adhesive silicone, rather, it is a sealant. It is unfit for tank building.

M3P
10/12/2010, 10:30 AM
I understand that it is a sealant, not adhesive. It is a good think the sump tank is new. I only used the silicone for the baffles, so I'm not as concerned about a flood. If the baffles fall, I will definitely use the industrial grade adhesive. My concern was about toxicity and that question has been answered. Thanks everyone!

dzfish17
10/12/2010, 11:18 AM
I think we need an update on youre tank in the large reef tank section. From my calculations you are probably close to adding a CUC to youre tank.

Dave

capecoral
10/16/2010, 07:42 AM
Did not know there was a difference in adhesive or sealant. All smelled the same to me.

uncleof6
10/27/2010, 07:22 PM
Did not know there was a difference in adhesive or sealant. All smelled the same to me.

You probably have not inhaled a good snort of RTV108 then. Or noticed the "ammonia" odor of Silicone II ;)

capecoral
10/28/2010, 06:40 AM
I thought silicone smelled like vinegar...

jeff@zina.com
10/28/2010, 07:33 AM
You probably have not inhaled a good snort of RTV108 then.

The image that popped in my head.... :spin2:

Jeff

HI SALENITY
12/02/2010, 10:23 PM
So how is the tank ?

M3P
12/02/2010, 11:36 PM
Fish, shrimp, snails, and corals appear to be doing well! Looks like there was no chemical issues to worry about. :) Will use the better stuff in the future, but for now things are holding up nicely.

RocketSurgeon
12/03/2010, 07:25 AM
:thumbsup::thumbsup: