Question regarding RDSB

[kamil5000]

Hi,

I am planning to attach a new 75g RDSB (8 inch sand) + Refugium to my 280 g total system volume.

The current system is already running with live stock and all for a few month now.

Question: Will the 75g RDSB require to go through a cycling period before i can attach it the existing tank?

Tks
Kamil

[scubasteve06]

I'd say probably not, especially if you go with live sand for your sand bed and you add a good bit of chaeto, since you'll need a good bit for a 75g fuge, it will probably be able to convert ammonia to nitrate as soon as you set it up. I would think if you used regular sand though you might see an ammonia spike.

[RickMartin]

Why are you wanting to add a RDSB to your system?
I doubt if needing to cycle it is an issue unless you are using live sand that was shipped and expect some die off. Probably more an issue is the nutrients that will be released

[kamil5000]

I'd say probably not, especially if you go with live sand for your sand bed and you add a good bit of chaeto, since you'll need a good bit for a 75g fuge, it will probably be able to convert ammonia to nitrate as soon as you set it up. I would think if you used regular sand though you might see an ammonia spike.

I will not be using live sand, only the regular sugar fine "dry" sand and Macro Algea will be added at a much later stage. Would that make a diffrence?

[kamil5000]

Why are you wanting to add a RDSB to your system?
I doubt if needing to cycle it is an issue unless you are using live sand that was shipped and expect some die off. Probably more an issue is the nutrients that will be released

The RDSB for three reasons:

1 - Control No3 & Po4 by breeding Anoxic Bacteria and grow food in the Refuguim.
2 - Increase total system volume so as to increase bioload.
3 - The 75g is my old tank, so why not use it.:lolspin:

The sand will not be live so logically there should not be any die-off and hence no cycling since everything is inert - is my assumption correct?


Tks.

[RickMartin]

Better off to get a sulpher denitrator and run gfo. Sandbeds are more trouble than they are worth and do very little to help with nutrient issues. Most people who remove them see immediate drops in nitrates.
New sandbeds seem to have a cyano bloom shortly after install. Probably from stored nutrients. Even from dead inert sand

[chimmike]

agree with above but add "RDSB"s are more trouble than they're worth. A simple 2-3" sand bed is fine, but once you get that anoxic area, thats where stuff gets trapped and builds up. There are some really good articles on this site about RDSB's.

[kamil5000]

hmmmmm.....you guys are begining to make me change my mind on the RDSB issue - i may change to a 3 inch sand bed for the fuge. And possibly add a Sulpher denitrator - will have to research that more.

But the assumption still stands that since the sand is new and not alive - there shouldn't be a cycle process?

[euromomtx]

There is a deep sandbed discussion stickied somewhere on here.
It seems like the medium sandbeds (2-3") are the most trouble -not deep enough for the nutrient conversion offered by functioning DSBs and too deep for manual nutrient removal.
I had 4" in my old tank (no detectable N or P thanks to lots of macro) and now have 6" in my current tank.
The reason I have 6" is because it's a jawfish tank though otherwise I would have stayed in the 4" region. 8' seems like a little bit of a waste of real estate without any added benefits from the extra depth.

I'll go find the DSB thing for you :)

[euromomtx]

here you go:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1652103

[euromomtx]

here you go:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1652103

[kamil5000]

Tks Karin for the link.

I have been trying to make up my mind on this for a while and keep getting more undecided as i do more and more research.

Baiscally here are the two opininons from experst:

1 - Anthony Calfo is for a RDSB (even sand in a bucket system) and believes that it is a great for controlling NO3.

in the other corner

2 - Dr. Ron S. Believes that if the Deep sand bed is not in the Display Tank, then it is useless.


So i am lost.

[euromomtx]

I have the book by Shimek on sandbeds and he is so specific about their make up that I bet most sandbeds would not meet his criteria regardless of where they are located ;)

[chimmike]

I think i know what you mean euro, he describes using media of various sizes/types to make the most use of the biological factors, etc.

IT was way over my head in terms of complication. I'll have a fuge and a 4" sand bed in it with LR on top.

[sltloser]

If you would like to ask ron yourself, here is a thread from the marine depot forums where he is an active member. http://forum.marinedepot.com/Topic110535-11-1.aspx it's all about DSB and i think will help you a lot. hope it helps!

[Carant]

The RDSB for three reasons:

1 - Control No3 & Po4 by breeding Anoxic Bacteria and grow food in the Refuguim.
2 - Increase total system volume so as to increase bioload.
3 - The 75g is my old tank, so why not use it.:lolspin:

The sand will not be live so logically there should not be any die-off and hence no cycling since everything is inert - is my assumption correct?


Tks.

Basically you are combining both a RDSB and a refugium into one system - your 75 gallon tank.

With the RDSB ... most of the time it is a closed bucket ... either salt buckets or rubbermaid brute trash cans that are 100% only DSB ... closed off with no light. The flow is relatively high 300 gph for a 5 gallon salt bucket.

A macro refugium is focused on the macro and can be reversed lit so that you can balance PH. Normally no sand so you can easily siphon the bottom and the flow is usually much slower.

Both these are quite different so if you are combining them you have to make compromises to one or the other.

I like the idea of having a refugium that is full of life and as a 75 gallon you basically have another tank that you can keep some small fish that would not fit into your display tank.

Just make the decision that makes sense to you and works into your plans.

For your original concern ... Adding the 75 gallon DSB with new dead sand would not cause any problems for the display tank. Of course it will cycle ... but there is no die off and I can see no negatives of adding online with your existing tank. You are just going to get and increase in water volume to your system. Any advantages regarding the DSB and the macro will come in time as that section cycles and matures.

Hope this helps.

Cheers,
Bruce

[scubasteve06]

Basically you are combining both a RDSB and a refugium into one system - your 75 gallon tank.

With the RDSB ... most of the time it is a closed bucket ... either salt buckets or rubbermaid brute trash cans that are 100% only DSB ... closed off with no light. The flow is relatively high 300 gph for a 5 gallon salt bucket.

A macro refugium is focused on the macro and can be reversed lit so that you can balance PH. Normally no sand so you can easily siphon the bottom and the flow is usually much slower.

Both these are quite different so if you are combining them you have to make compromises to one or the other.

I like the idea of having a refugium that is full of life and as a 75 gallon you basically have another tank that you can keep some small fish that would not fit into your display tank.

Just make the decision that makes sense to you and works into your plans.

For your original concern ... Adding the 75 gallon DSB with new dead sand would not cause any problems for the display tank. Of course it will cycle ... but there is no die off and I can see no negatives of adding online with your existing tank. You are just going to get and increase in water volume to your system. Any advantages regarding the DSB and the macro will come in time as that section cycles and matures.

Hope this helps.

Cheers,
Bruce

This x2. I think bruce sums it up best, saying that it will be beneficial no matter what you do with the 75g to add it onto your system as a fuge. Whether you go with one or the other will depend on what you want. I like the 2-3" sand bed idea and lots of macro and LR rubble to create a predator free zone for pods and smaller fish and inverts with a sand bed shallow enough to siphon and clean. I guess my 'DSB' in my fuge and my tank really don't count then since they are both around 4". They still both serve their purpose equally well in my system with undetectable Nitrate and Phosphate on a Salifert test. I am still going to get a dual BRS reactor hopefully for christmas and run carbon and gfo for phosphate removal.

[kamil5000]

Thanks everyone for your input:

As the principals of a RDSB seem to be that it should be in a closed bucket. And for the full benefit of a big RDSB it appears that it must be in the Display Tank.

I think i will go with Bruce's suggestion for a big fuge with a regular 2" sandbed.

Thanks again all.....

Kamil

[sltloser]

Although you've made your decision, if you want to get more aquainted with how your sandbed works i would suggest reading this small article Dr. Ron Shimek has on his website http://www.ronshimek.com/deep_sand_beds.html

[kamil5000]

Although you've made your decision, if you want to get more aquainted with how your sandbed works i would suggest reading this small article Dr. Ron Shimek has on his website http://www.ronshimek.com/deep_sand_beds.html

Thanks for the link.

I guess in theory, even if the fuge has a Deep Sand Bed it should provide beneficial organisims to the main tank as a lot of the plankton will be sucked into the main tank and the criters that stay in the fuge will mange a lot of the re-cycling work..

Would i even dare to say that a DSB in fuge is better than the main tank because the plankton and other organisms will breed more 'cause there is nothing to eat them:smokin: