My rant.

[Matt_Wandell]

I think I've earned the right to go on a mini-rant. :D

Open topped fish tanks: As sensible as leaving a crawling baby near an open swimming pool. One is just more disposable than the other. Not only is this a bad idea, it seems to be the trendy thing to do with tanks nowadays. Why put your fish at risk?

Discuss.

[Jacob D]

Matt: Everybody knows chicks dig open top tanks.


But seriously; I could see a closed top tank being a logistical issue for some people, or at least they might think of it as a logistical issue. Egg crate and bird netting don't count as closed top in my book since fish tend to slip through and/or get hung up to dry. A "real" closed top comes with the problems of heat and condensation management, but those can be pretty easily addressed with fans; so those turn out not to be problems afterall.

I'm with you: keep your wet friends safe with a closed top no matter how sexy your rimless looks :)

[sneakerpimp]

....

[KMP]

Rimless, rim or rim with canopy. I've seen just as many fish cook on the 'rim' of Oceanic Tech tanks or tanks with euro bracing and cross braces as I have seen fish jump out of rimless tanks. If a mesh screen (done right) is not the best option (for keeping fish in) - what is?

[bradleyj]

IMO, a 1/4 inch mesh top is fishproof. And I've been trying to say it forever.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v714/tileman/225%20g%20%20reef/006.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v714/tileman/027copy.jpg

[davocean]

There's nothing trendy about open tops, we've done it a long time, most of us, better gas exchange, helps keep evaporation and temp issues.
Birdsnest tops are best IMO, but even still I lost a pair of helfrichi's through 1/4" birdsnest.
This topic probably would have been better posted in reef discusion than reef fishes, JMO.

[iamwhatiam52]

I want to cover my tank even though I have only had one carpet surfer (matted file fish) in 5 years

What kind of mesh is best and what is the best way to mount it?

[davocean]

Nice tank Bradleyj, and that is the top I had.
My helfrichi pair disagreed w/ you though!
Lasted one day...

[bradleyj]

I used to have 1/2 inch bird netting, Doubled up to decrease the size of the holes. But I still would lose a small fish every once in awhile. But now with the 1/4 inch clear netting, I keep flashers and have yet to lose another fish. Well over a year now. And, now you can find it at Bulk Reef Supply.

[tcmfish]

I think people should cover tanks as well. The prices people pay for some of these fish are up there, and for a fraction of the cost of a fish you could make a top.

Also I think this is the appropriate forum for this post because you don't get too many jumping corals, although I have had the occasional snail crawl out of a tank.

[bradleyj]

Nice tank Bradleyj, and that is the top I had.
My helfrichi pair disagreed w/ you though!
Lasted one day...

Thank you and I'm sorry to hear that. I'm sure there may be other fish that could manage an escape, but not many.

[davocean]

I used the same as Bradleyj, vinyl screen kit from HD w/ 1/4" birdsnest, but since my tank was rimless I mounted inside perimeter, and used clear clips to hold it in place to keep the clean rimless look.

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e141/mermail/3132.jpg

[Jacob D]

Nice tank Bradleyj, and that is the top I had.
My helfrichi pair disagreed w/ you though!
Lasted one day...

Ouch, that's rough. A friend of mine had a similar top and lost a C. naokoae the day he put it into his tank, it didn't fit through the netting but got hung up on it (like a gill net).


I don't want to say my setup is jumper proof because I know what will happen if I do, but it's pretty secure. There are some older pics here (http://dinardiengineering.com/blog/?p=35). This is obviously not for everyone though.

[auem]

i keep water level 4"(in winter) to 6"(summer) below the top...i know it is aesthetically not pleasing,specially if not a in-wall built;...problem of air-exchange/air circulation is taken care by 2 fans..
it work for me,though it is not a good solution i guess....

[aquaph8]

IMO, a 1/4 inch mesh top is fishproof. And I've been trying to say it forever.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v714/tileman/225%20g%20%20reef/006.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v714/tileman/027copy.jpg

Bradley, where is that mesh from. I use home depot bird netting on mine doubled up and i still lost a fire fish to though it the other day. Here is what the current one looks like. I like yours better.

http://WWW.reefcentral.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=683&pictureid=18607

[bradleyj]

You can buy it at Bulk Reef Supply. Search under 1/4" clear netting.

[aquaph8]

Thank you sir. You have a very beautiful tank. Love those wrasses.

[bradleyj]

Thank you Brett. Sorry, you need to find it in the (miscellaneous items) in your search.

[Matt_Wandell]

Here's another solution, made by Greg Scheimer.
http://i657.photobucket.com/albums/uu299/mhwandell/Ribboneelguard42reef_thumb.jpg

i keep water level 4"(in winter) to 6"(summer) below the top...i know it is aesthetically not pleasing,specially if not a in-wall built;...problem of air-exchange/air circulation is taken care by 2 fans..
it work for me,though it is not a good solution i guess....

Sounds like a great solution!

[LKGRenegade22]

The extra lip around the top of that tank in the post above mine or having the water level 6" from the top will NOT keep a fish in...not even close.

[Matt_Wandell]

The extra lip around the top of that tank in the post above mine or having the water level 6" from the top will NOT keep a fish in...not even close.

Of course not, but if one is insistent on having an open top it improves their odds. :D

[suta4242]

I picked up a rimless recently that, when set up will run water very high ie about 1-1.5cm below the glass edge. Then I came home, looked at some of my fish (yeah including the helfrichi firefish) and realised this wasn't a smart option for them (at all). Now I'm unsure what to put in there fish wise.

But to answer your original question, nothing beats looking down at corals from a rimless set up. Add some spotlights and the whole look is very modern.

Problem is I like my fish a lot too and am now considering putting small starfire triangles in the corners so I can make a netting top, before adding fish:hammer:.... Realise it'll spoil the look, but at least my fish will still be going strong.

So is Greg Scheimer's one just the same as auem's idea, ie keep the last ~4" free of water? I heard this methods popular in parts of Europe.:confused:

[singold]

Better CO2 exchange, lighting, & temp. concerns are the main reasons.

[VacavilleFC3S]

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll249/GregO_Aquarium/IMG_20101015_153007.jpg

[snorvich]

No top means fish can and will leave.

[gasman059]

You can buy it at Bulk Reef Supply. Search under 1/4" clear netting.

bradley would u be so kinf and provide us a link-- i can't seem to find it on their site THX

[Yogre]

Here you go:

http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/store/clear-1-4-screen-netting-7-x-3.html

[Beaun]

Here is a link to everything you would need to make it:

http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/store/catalogsearch/result/?q=netting

[Paco]

I installed my fish tank in my back yard, in the middle of my swimming pool, which I converted to saltwater. That way if the fish jump out, then just end up in the pool and I can net them and put them back into the tank.

[lvpd186]

I installed my fish tank in my back yard, in the middle of my swimming pool, which I converted to saltwater. That way if the fish jump out, then just end up in the pool and I can net them and put them back into the tank.
I know its off topic but I would love to see a pic of that! As for the mesh I agree it works better then egg-crate. I use to use egg-crate but moved to mesh after a wrasse jumped through the egg-crate and cooked on top of it.

[JHemdal]

Matt - that was a pretty mild rant, come on, I bet you can do better if you really try!

Here is my quote about jumping fish:

“Any fish will jump out of an aquarium under some circumstances and some fish will jump out of an aquarium under any circumstances”. The corollary to this is; “The chance of this happening is always inversely proportional to the value of the animal”.


Jay

[SDguy]

Oh Matt, such a horrible memory http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p5/SDreefguy/smilies/crying.gif

http://www.sdreefs.com/forums/imagehosting/5974ae7a2c6646e7.jpg

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p5/SDreefguy/IMG_7424_1.jpg

[LobsterOfJustice]

I've been in the hobby for several years, and I have experience in a university mariculture lab as well as a LFS. Off hand, seahorses are about the only fish I can think of that I havent seen lost to jumping.

IMO, open top tanks are irresponsible. We have taken these fish into captivity and it is our responsibility to do everything we can to keep them alive. I love the look, but they are really only appropriate for frag tanks or coral/clam display tanks.

[snorvich]

Here is my quote about jumping fish:

“Any fish will jump out of an aquarium under some circumstances and some fish will jump out of an aquarium under any circumstances”. The corollary to this is; “The chance of this happening is always inversely proportional to the value of the animal”.

Jay

Amen. I have never seen it said better! :lol2:

[Fin Mike]

Dear Lord the sadness and despair I would feel if I came home to see my Regal dead on the floor. Miller Lite alternated by Jim Beam with an aggressive consumption schedule would have to be the temporary solution to that issue. Long term: I guess I would just have to buy a new one and learn my lesson.:furious:

[tony varrell]

To what extent does it effect your lighting? Does it cast shadows in the tank ?

[Yogre]

To what extent does it effect your lighting? Does it cast shadows in the tank ?

The 1/4" mesh that I use over my tank has no impact that I can see. I don't have a PAR meter, but I doubt there would be much impact there, either.

[jmaneyapanda]

Matt-

Nail. Head. You.

I get it that "rimless" tanks are the nouveau thing, but I will NEVER understand why people will so WILLINGLY put their livestock in harms way by doing so. We have NO IDEA why fish jump. They just do. And anyone who is willing to risk their animals lives for a conceptual image should reconsider their position in this hobby too. I like the looks of anthias and lionfish, but it is a stupid combination.

[Ian]

I own a rimless aquarium and the first top I made was inset inside the opening but I found that to be flimsy, also, when you pull the mesh tight, the frame bows to the point that a fish can jump out.

I ordered some 1" 90* fiberglass stock and fabricated a 'rim' for the tank where window screen aluminum inset into it so it's got a tight seal around the rim of the aquarium and the mesh is removable should I accidently rip/cut it. It doesn't look as clean with it but if it'll help my fish to live long term, I'm fine with it :D

http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w169/bigian001/IMG_6471.jpg

http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w169/bigian001/IMG_6467.jpg

[bradleyj]

It looks pretty clean to me Ian.

[Robka]

Matt: Everybody knows chicks dig open top tanks.


But seriously; I could see a closed top tank being a logistical issue for some people, or at least they might think of it as a logistical issue. Egg crate and bird netting don't count as closed top in my book since fish tend to slip through and/or get hung up to dry. A "real" closed top comes with the problems of heat and condensation management, but those can be pretty easily addressed with fans; so those turn out not to be problems afterall.

I'm with you: keep your wet friends safe with a closed top no matter how sexy your rimless looks :)

The bird netting on my tank has 1/8" holes (most people use 1/4" holes found at Home Depot) and none of my fish (not even my 1 1/2" Tail Spot Blenny) can fit through those openings. My netting came from a local winery:beer:

[Matt_Wandell]

I own a rimless aquarium and the first top I made was inset inside the opening but I found that to be flimsy, also, when you pull the mesh tight, the frame bows to the point that a fish can jump out.

I ordered some 1" 90* fiberglass stock and fabricated a 'rim' for the tank where window screen aluminum inset into it so it's got a tight seal around the rim of the aquarium and the mesh is removable should I accidently rip/cut it. It doesn't look as clean with it but if it'll help my fish to live long term, I'm fine with it :D

Ian, that is SUPER clean. Can you give us some more details on the construction of it? Where did you find the fiberglass stock? Did you attach the aluminum frame to it, or is it just friction fit?

[Matt_Wandell]

Matt - that was a pretty mild rant, come on, I bet you can do better if you really try!

Here is my quote about jumping fish:

“Any fish will jump out of an aquarium under some circumstances and some fish will jump out of an aquarium under any circumstances”. The corollary to this is; “The chance of this happening is always inversely proportional to the value of the animal”.


Jay

Heh, very true Jay, but my less mild rants might get me kicked off of RC. :D

[Ian]

Ian, that is SUPER clean. Can you give us some more details on the construction of it? Where did you find the fiberglass stock? Did you attach the aluminum frame to it, or is it just friction fit?

Thanks Matt, if it'll encourage people to cover their aquariums I'd be happy to :D

I bought some of the 1" material in this link...

http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?itemid=23190&catid=561

I cut the ends at 45* angles measuring about 1/8" extra total for a snug but loose enough fit. I attached the frame with superglue on a flat surface and set it aside to cut the aluminum screen material.

The aluminum was cut so the frame fit snug into the fiberglass trim and put a thin silicone bead inside the fiberglass and dropped the aluminum to hold it in while also holding the fiberglass together with the opening for the mesh facing down so it could easily be replaced if needed.

I did the extra steps of using a small amount of bondo to smooth the corners, primed it with a high fill primer, sanded it some then textured it with spray texture made by SEM that was left over from a car audio job...

http://www.rwmallon.com/catalog.asp?prodid=550854&showprevnext=1

that adds a texture and also acts as a protectant. I then painted it with a nice lacquer aerosol and viola!

By the way, HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!!:celeb3::celeb1::dance::bounce2::bounce3::bounce1:

[Ralph ATL]

IMO, a 1/4 inch mesh top is fishproof. And I've been trying to say it forever.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v714/tileman/225%20g%20%20reef/006.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v714/tileman/027copy.jpg



This stuff is fantastic! Just the best!

[huskerreef]

Seems like a no brainer to me, but I was once a no top guy. I was telling everyone that none of my fish ever jump, not needed. Then I lost a mystery wrasse 5 minutes after putting him in. Felt kind of foolish for thinking I knew more than everyone else. All my tank are covered with 1/4" screening like Bradley's. Its about as fish safe as it gets.

[jaa1456]

Ok, I read all of the post in this thread and all of them but one were concerned with smaller fish. The Regal being the exception. Now I have had my tank covered with the standard glass covers before with MH lighting because of jumping fish. When you have full grown angels and large tangs jump and knock the glass covers off and even break them, then what? Go to the mesh covers like shown before, but then you have another problem, Securing them properly without blocking any light. I tried a few things and had some screens knocked completely off and even one that was broken. By the way I believe they were going after flies or bees that had landed on the the top, that had gotten in the house during the summer.

[melanotaenia]

Not all fish tanks are created equal; if one creates a tank in such a way that the canopy sits flush against the top of the tank, then...well...there really is nowhere for the fish to jump except back into the aquarium. I can see the benefits of clear mesh tops (and I have one on my tank) but for some of the larger aquariums and certain designs just cannot work with a clear mesh top, but that does not mean that the fishkeeper is being irresponsible.

There are exceptions to every rule.

[SDguy]

Not all fish tanks are created equal; if one creates a tank in such a way that the canopy sits flush against the top of the tank, then...well...there really is nowhere for the fish to jump except back into the aquarium. I can see the benefits of clear mesh tops (and I have one on my tank) but for some of the larger aquariums and certain designs just cannot work with a clear mesh top, but that does not mean that the fishkeeper is being irresponsible.

There are exceptions to every rule.

I don't think anyone is saying that unless you use mesh, you are irresponsible. I think the point of this thread is that you need to have something on the tank to keep the fish from jumping to it's death. How you do that is up to you.

[ataller]

Has anyone come up with a good workaround for returns that come up and over the back rim of the tank? The elbow connectors for the screen frame only go in one direction so you cannot jog the frame around the returns.

[Beaun]

Has anyone come up with a good workaround for returns that come up and over the back rim of the tank? The elbow connectors for the screen frame only go in one direction so you cannot jog the frame around the returns.

That is what I was wondering, what if you have a seaswirl? Most of the time I get fish in the overflow, nothing has ever jumped out, but I wanted to make something for the entire top, not just the left side with the overflow; but I can't figure out how to get arond the seaswirl.

[melanotaenia]

I don't think anyone is saying that unless you use mesh, you are irresponsible. I think the point of this thread is that you need to have something on the tank to keep the fish from jumping to it's death. How you do that is up to you.

But is not entirely true; I know a fellow reefer who built an acrylic box around the top frame of the aquarium that the canopy fits over; if fish jump near the perimeter of the tank, they just hit the acrylic frame and fall back into the aquarium; if they jump in the middle of the aquarium, well, then they are just pulling a Sea World trick ;)

My clear mesh top has saved the life of both my Mystery Wrasse and my pair of Clownfish on several occasions.

[Matt_Wandell]

Has anyone come up with a good workaround for returns that come up and over the back rim of the tank? The elbow connectors for the screen frame only go in one direction so you cannot jog the frame around the returns.

You can actually modify the elbows so they go the other direction--just need a Dremel tool and a couple minutes.

Depending on where the SS is you could also cover that side of the tank with a more permanent cover (say acrylic cut to the proper shape), and then use the mesh frame over the rest of the tank. Complications like this are one reason I like to keep the entire rim completely free of cords, pipes, etc when designing the tank.

[tcmfish]

But is not entirely true; I know a fellow reefer who built an acrylic box around the top frame of the aquarium that the canopy fits over; if fish jump near the perimeter of the tank, they just hit the acrylic frame and fall back into the aquarium; if they jump in the middle of the aquarium, well, then they are just pulling a Sea World trick ;)

My clear mesh top has saved the life of both my Mystery Wrasse and my pair of Clownfish on several occasions.

So what happens when they jump onto the side and get stuck dry? What you described is just called euro-bracing.

Why do you always have to knock everything btw?

[SDguy]

But is not entirely true; I know a fellow reefer who built an acrylic box around the top frame of the aquarium that the canopy fits over; if fish jump near the perimeter of the tank, they just hit the acrylic frame and fall back into the aquarium; if they jump in the middle of the aquarium, well, then they are just pulling a Sea World trick ;)

My clear mesh top has saved the life of both my Mystery Wrasse and my pair of Clownfish on several occasions.

Hmmm, perhaps you are nit picking wording a bit too much.

Let me make it clearer: IMO the point of this thread is to tell people to somehow have something over/around/on top of your aquarium so as to either prevent the fish from jumping out or to leave no alternative but for the fish to simply fall back into the water after jumping. Either way, the end result should be that your fish is in the water (ie not dried out and dead).

Hope that clears it up for you :)

[Elysia]

I thought that one of the main reasons for having a sump was for gas exchange? I also thought that skimmers helped with this issue. And while I know that everyone would like a silent tank, I thought that water falling over the overflow was suppose to help with gas exchange. I have a glass top, so I can see where that may hinder gas exchange at the water's surface, but how does mesh screen effect it (or the temperature?) And a glass top would decrease evaporation -- what is wrong with that? I don't find the excuses valid... and while it is great to look down into a tank, it is impossible to see clearly until there is practically no water movement -- so if you are going to do that, you could just as easily remove a top, IMO.

[SDguy]

I personally think the only reason glass would be bad is light penetration (keeping it clean) and heat (I run halides). Gas exchange I don't think is an issue with a sump, skimmer, etc. Frankly, my very first FO had a glass lid and no sump, but it did have airpumps on it (for the U/G filter, of course :lol: ).

[Matt_Wandell]

I thought that one of the main reasons for having a sump was for gas exchange? I also thought that skimmers helped with this issue. And while I know that everyone would like a silent tank, I thought that water falling over the overflow was suppose to help with gas exchange. I have a glass top, so I can see where that may hinder gas exchange at the water's surface, but how does mesh screen effect it (or the temperature?) And a glass top would decrease evaporation -- what is wrong with that? I don't find the excuses valid... and while it is great to look down into a tank, it is impossible to see clearly until there is practically no water movement -- so if you are going to do that, you could just as easily remove a top, IMO.

Elysia makes the sense.

Yes, a good skimmer in a well ventilated sump is perfectly acceptable to keep the DO level high. If someone is really concerned about the DO level and can't use a sump or mesh top for some reason, a solid top with air injected into the "dead air" space via an air pump along with the water being agitated at the surface should be perfectly adequate to keep the DO high.

[melanotaenia]

So what happens when they jump onto the side and get stuck dry? What you described is just called euro-bracing.

Why do you always have to knock everything btw?

A fish that jumps and hits a 4" tall acrylic "perimeter" around an open top aquarium, a perimeter that is most likely already a little wet from condensation and splashing from pumps, is not going to get stuck to the side and dry.

Sorry to sidetrack the thread SDguy

[tcmfish]

I misunderstood and thought you were referring to something like euro-bracing. As far as what you described... there are pics of that already in this thread...

[tcmfish]

Here's another solution, made by Greg Scheimer.
http://i657.photobucket.com/albums/uu299/mhwandell/Ribboneelguard42reef_thumb.jpg



Sounds like a great solution!

[Big E]

That wall won't work well for good jumpers like wrasses & anthias. I had a Bartlett jump over my head when I was feeding the tank..........which is close to 2 feet above the water line.