water change

[mtaswt]

should I perform a water change after my cycle is complete?

[IslandCrow]

I would. I also don't see any problems performing water changes during the cycle, especially if you have a lot of die-off. Unless you're doing massive water changes (over 50%), it really can't hurt anything, and will only help.

[fatdaddy]

I'd get on a schedule for doing water changes. 20%/month or biweekly is common.

[unclejed2]

should I perform a water change after my cycle is complete?
It depends what you mean by; "after the cycle is complete." Many don't realize the full cycle can go up to 8 mos. even if all the "numbers" are coming out fine. I would wait until about the 2 month mark to do a 25% water change.

[Reverend Reefer]

start today.

[Sk8r]

When you have had ammonia, then seen it go away, give it 4 more days, and test daily. If you can drop in a few flakes of fish food and have no ammonia, you are cycled. At this point you can do a 10% water change.
if you have not already put your first fish (singular) into quarantine, do so now, in a separate bare tank: ask if you don't know how to qt. After your water change, you can add about 20% of your intended cleanup crew(cuc) and go on testing, watching for ammonia. After 4 weeks, your fish will be ready to go into your tank, ich-free and safe, and happy to have rocks again. If you follow these steps, testing and logging all the way, and slowing down and immediately doing a 10% water change if ever you spot any ammonia, you'll be fine. 10% a week water change. Test nitrate/ammonia, and start testing alkalinity. Shoot for 8.3 on that.

[unclejed2]

start today.

Doing a change before the cycle is complete is ill-advised.

[Palting]

When you have had ammonia, then seen it go away, give it 4 more days, and test daily. If you can drop in a few flakes of fish food and have no ammonia, you are cycled. At this point you can do a 10% water change.
if you have not already put your first fish (singular) into quarantine, do so now, in a separate bare tank: ask if you don't know how to qt. After your water change, you can add about 20% of your intended cleanup crew(cuc) and go on testing, watching for ammonia. After 4 weeks, your fish will be ready to go into your tank, ich-free and safe, and happy to have rocks again. If you follow these steps, testing and logging all the way, and slowing down and immediately doing a 10% water change if ever you spot any ammonia, you'll be fine. 10% a week water change. Test nitrate/ammonia, and start testing alkalinity. Shoot for 8.3 on that.

WOW!! I gotta say this advice is the most concise and complete I have seen on the topic of water change and cycling and first fish. Lots to read in between the lines, all of them great points. Then again, can't expect anything less from Sk8r. I can't add anything more to answer the OP.

Doing a change before the cycle is complete is ill-advised.

I would not agree with it being ill-advised as a blanket statement. It can be a good idea in some instances. Like if you see a shroom or polyp hitchiker on your live rock, and your ammonia is spiking. You'll want to do a water change while cycling to preserve these hitchikers.

[jeff@zina.com]

Doing a change before the cycle is complete is ill-advised.

Why? It's sometimes needed, especially when Nitrates spike really high and you don't have any means of export running.

The ammonia cycle happens, and it happens on a continuous basis. Forever. Whether the bacteria involved are up to the specific loads involved determines spiking, and removing the ammonia, nitrites or nitrates alleviates spiking. Water changes are just one way to do this.

Jeff

[unclejed2]

Why? It's sometimes needed, especially when Nitrates spike really high and you don't have any means of export running.

Jeff

Exactly, if no export is running. The teaching here is to add the proper means of export via skimming, sumps with macro or other viable methods at the beginning. I am not an advocate of water changes as a means of a "band aid" for any issues going on in an aquarium with the exception of an emergency where a 50% change would be the only alternative (short term) to get the emergency under control.

[Toddrtrex]

Doing a change before the cycle is complete is ill-advised.

How do you figure? What harm will come from it?

I have always done regular water changes during a cycle -- I paid good money for the "life" on my live rock, and don't want to kill any of it off with an ammonia spike.

Here is a good post on this subject;

For a given bioload there's going to be a roughly set carrying capacity for the bacteria. Whether you do a waterchange or not, you're going to end up at the same place, you just change the path you take to get there and how long it takes.

If you don't do a WC you finish the initial cycle quicker but you overshoot the carrying capacity, so the population drops, overshooting it again. You end up setting up fluctuations in the population and prolonging the time it takes for the tank to "mature" or finally settle at the carrying capacity.

If you do WCs it takes a little bit longer for the bacteria to reach the carrying capacity, but there's very little overshoot so the tank is essentially mature as soon as the cycle is done. The fact that there's less ammonia also helps to preserve diversity on the liverock.

Here's a little graph to show what's going on.
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b383/msgprimate/cycle.jpg

Personally, I recommend doing WCs, but either way will work.

[Uncle Salty 05]

Doing a change before the cycle is complete is ill-advised.

I agree.

[GT3]

Doing a change before the cycle is complete is ill-advised.

I agree.


Only if you need to preserve those hitchhikers from live rocks then do WC.

Also after the cycle is completed, there is no need for WC unless high nitrate.

But you shouldn't have high nitrate at first if you know what you are doing.

[Palting]

Also after the cycle is completed, there is no need for WC unless high nitrate.



Now that is just wrong. Ooops. I forgot. Courtesy. OK. In my humble opinion, that is just wrong.

Water changes do not "just" export nitrate. They replenish consumed minerals and chemicals. One biggie is alk. Cycling or the ammonia-nitrite-nitrate-nitrogen gas process produces acid which consumes the alk/buffer, and therefore needs to be replenished. That is just one example of why you need to do water changes after the cycle.

[GT3]

Now that is just wrong. Ooops. I forgot. Courtesy. OK. In my humble opinion, that is just wrong.

Water changes do not "just" export nitrate. They replenish consumed minerals and chemicals. One biggie is alk. Cycling or the ammonia-nitrite-nitrate-nitrogen gas process produces acid which consumes the alk/buffer, and therefore needs to be replenished. That is just one example of why you need to do water changes after the cycle.

I will test my water to see the difference. My 5th tank just finished cycling. :wavehand:

[Palting]

I will test my water to see the difference. My 5th tank just finished cycling. :wavehand:

Why your 5th? Did the other 4 crash? :love1: :)

Water changes are an integral part of tank maintenance, even if your nitrate is zero. Whether this is at the end of your cycle, or after yearrs. I refer you to this link: http://reefkeeping.com/joomla/index.php/totm-list . That's the list of the past Tank of the Month winners. I assume with both agree that these are successful reefers, certainly more than you or I. See if there is a single one that agrees with you that water change only if the nitrates are high, vs those that state the very basic necessity of water changes. :beer:

[GT3]

5" DSB live sand

Before live rocks added:
PH 8.2
Calcium 540
Phosphate 0
Kh 13

Now live rocks cycled complete(3 weeks after):
PH 8.4
Calcium 420
Phosphate 0
Kh 15
Nitrate <5
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
PS: NO WC done since beginning of cycle.

[GT3]

Why your 5th? Did the other 4 crash? :love1: :)

Water changes are an integral part of tank maintenance, even if your nitrate is zero. Whether this is at the end of your cycle, or after yearrs. I refer you to this link: http://reefkeeping.com/joomla/index.php/totm-list . That's the list of the past Tank of the Month winners. I assume with both agree that these are successful reefers, certainly more than you or I. See if there is a single one that agrees with you that water change only if the nitrates are high, vs those that state the very basic necessity of water changes. :beer:

I live on the coast line of HI, ocean water goes to our house for flushing toilet, I connect the tube to my tanks in the basement so I don't do WC as the water in the tank is constantly coming in and out. I don't know you but that's what most people do here.

[IslandCrow]

I've heard at least three people advise against doing water changes during a cycle, but not one has given a reason. Thank you Toddrtrex for posting that quote from Greenbean. He always gives very good explanations to why he has formed his very well educated opinions. Too many people seem to exaggerate the impact of a 10-20% water change. The reason I hear most often for not doing water changes during the cycle is that it deprives the denitrifying bacteria of their nutrients. Now, if your live rock is fairly sterile without much die-off, water changes are probably not necessary, but even after a water change, 80-90% of the ammonia and nitrate is still in the water. How much impact do you really feel the water change is going to have on your bacteria population. Now, let's switch gears to a tank started with rock that has a large amount of die-off. Now, far more ammonia and nitrate than your bacteria can process is being produced. Sure, your bacteria population has an all you can eat buffet, but now, not only are the leftovers available for things like nuissance algae, but you're potentially getting yourself into a situation where your nutrients get so high, it's going to be very difficult for you to get them back under control. This certainly won't happen in all situations, but you have to understand what's really happening in your tank before you ride the coattails of blanket statements like "never do a water change during the cycle".

[jeff@zina.com]

Exactly, if no export is running. The teaching here is to add the proper means of export via skimming, sumps with macro or other viable methods at the beginning.

Ummm.... What makes a water change an "improper" means of export? Thousands of systems all over the world run without skimmers, sumps, macroalgae or any other means of nutrient or nitrate export other than water changes.

Jeff

[jeff@zina.com]

... I don't do WC as the water in the tank is constantly coming in and out.

Water in, water out. Sounds like a water change... :)

Jeff

[Palting]

Water in, water out. Sounds like a water change... :)

Jeff

LOL. I was bitng my tongue :). Or is it biting my typing fingers?

[tozzi]

Water change is getting rid of nutrients. They have to get out of the tank somehow. If u have a skimmer , some are being removed from that. the rest will be removed from water changes. In my opinion the more frequent wc's the better. I try to do about 10% a week. If i miss a week then i do 20-25% biweekly.

[bigdog0598]

also weekly water changes will help keep all your levels up, i have a small reef and don't dose at all only do 15% changes weekly and even my sps is doing well

[unclejed2]

Water in, water out. Sounds like a water change... :)

Jeff
I think he meant top off water actually.

Water change is getting rid of nutrients. They have to get out of the tank somehow. If u have a skimmer , some are being removed from that. the rest will be removed from water changes. In my opinion the more frequent wc's the better. I try to do about 10% a week. If i miss a week then i do 20-25% biweekly.

also weekly water changes will help keep all your levels up, i have a small reef and don't dose at all only do 15% changes weekly and even my sps is doing well

http://www.bestfish.com/breakin.html

http://saltaquarium.about.com/od/aquariumwaterchanges/a/faqcyclewaterch.htm

[IslandCrow]

unclejed2,

In response to that second article, I say that modest water changes will not prevent the ammonia spike. Also, as Greenbean's quoted post points out, even though the initial cycle may be extended to some degree, these early water changes can actually help reduce the overall bacterial fluctuations and produce a more stable system more quickly.

The first article is geared towards fresh water, and in addition to its advice being pretty outdated (for instance, it states fish must be added to start the cycle), it isn't very applicable to what we're talking about. I especially love this statement:

As the cycling process nears an end, many hobbyists notice an improvement in the appetite and overall deportment of their fish.

Yeah, you'd be feeling better too when your home is no longer filled with deadly chemicals. . .assuming you live through the experience.

[Uncle Salty 05]

I have to take issue with greanbean's quoted article.
The following paragraph is pure speculation:

"If you don't do a WC you finish the initial cycle quicker but you overshoot the carrying capacity, so the population drops, overshooting it again. You end up setting up fluctuations in the population and prolonging the time it takes for the tank to "mature" or finally settle at the carrying capacity"

How exactly do you "overshoot" the carrying capacity?
"The population drops"? WHY?
"Overshooting it again"? See #1

If you remove ammonia and or nitrite from a tank during its initial cycle you will diminish the bacterial colonies needed to process that ammonia and or nitrite. Period.
That's my opinion and my experience.

[T Diddy]

Think of it as a predator/prey relationship. Large prey population (ammonia) and small predator population (nitrosomonas) gradually changes to large predator population and small prey population. This pendulum swings in both directions for as long as both predator and prey exist...hence, the waves on the graph posted above. Carrying capacity (equilibrium) is never reached and maintained for anylength of time in these kinds of relationships. Doing the water change levels the playing field so to speak, and keeps the crests and troughs of those waves closer to the baseline carrying capacity.

[Uncle Salty 05]

That simply has not been my experience.
It usually only takes two weeks for nitrosonomas to start converting ammonia to nitrite.
Nitrosnomas can live for two weeks or more in the abscence of ammonia.
Usually by the end of four weeks you are adding livestock which supplies a never ending supply of ammonia.
I would never recommend to a noob to do a water change while his/her tank is cycling unless there was a serious problem (like unwanted contamination) that warranted it.

[unclejed2]

unclejed2,

The first article is geared towards fresh water, and in addition to its advice being pretty outdated (for instance, it states fish must be added to start the cycle), it isn't very applicable to what we're talking about.



Yes, I know it is talking about fresh water, the principals still apply. You may be missing what a "total" cycle is. Cycling a tank will go from 6-8 mos. I have read countless posts in this and the other two forums I am a member where about the 6-8 month period people are baffled at algae out breaks, sure some can be due to over feeding and poor husbandry but many, many are doing everything correctly and still get the problems associated with cycling. There are many strains of bacteria and some do not develop their full capacity of reproducing enough to overcome their losses until the 6-8 month time frame, with exceptions of course. The idea of the cycle not "truly" beginning until you add a fish is sound for it is at this time there is a continual cycle that is set in motion. The fish eats, excretes, eats, excretes etc. Using dead flesh to start a cycle is just that...starting a cycle, and is not the end all. This has been good exchange of ideas and beliefs and I like that.

[tmz]

Water changes export nutrient. Not just NO3 but PO4 and organics and some metals too. They also replenish trace and minor elements as well as calcium,carbonate alkalinity , potassium, magnesium and so on.

[IslandCrow]

Yes, I know it is talking about fresh water, the principals still apply. You may be missing what a "total" cycle is. Cycling a tank will go from 6-8 mos.

I agree with you completely here, and I do understand the concept. In my use of "cycle", I'm simply using the term as it's generally applied in the hobby, which pretty much comes down to the period before a system is stable enough to add live stock. It can and will obviously take much more than a month or two for most systems to truly stabilize. I still disagree with that article on many levels, however.

Uncle Salty,
I think we have to be careful accepting what we've seen in our own experiences as fact. I'm guessing you've been doing this for awhile, but I don't think any one person here (unless they've done research specifically along these lines) has started up enough tanks under similar enough conditions to really be able to draw any conclusions. As for Greenbean's statements, I'm sure they are speculation to some extent. I think they're also based on a firm knowledge base and biological principles. Could he be wrong? Sure, but the argument makes a lot of sense to me regardless of how quickly nitrosomas process ammonia, or how long they can go without it. The fish may be a continual source of ammonia, but at that point, there's generally also significantly greater nutrient export. The way I see it, the problem comes when there is significantly more ammonia produced during the cycle due to the lack of nutrient export. If I'm starting with fairly well cured or relatively barren live rock, I doubt that's an issue. If I'm starting with uncured live rock that has a lot of die-off, however, I see no reason to let a tank become a cesspool. Why would I want much higher levels of nutrients in the tank than my bacteria population can possibly process. It's like dumping an entire bag of dog food into your dog's bowl. Sure, he'll be happy, but now you have a big mess on the floor that will eventually have to get cleaned up; especially if you insist on repeating this every day whether or not the dog has eaten what you just gave him.

[Uncle Salty 05]

Perhaps you missed the last line of my post?
"I would never recommend to a noob to do a water change while his/her tank is cycling unless there was a serious problem (like unwanted contamination) that warranted it."

The die off from uncured live rock is unwanted contamination.
I have always used cured live rock and gotten seed from an established sand bed when setting up a new tank.
I have had saltwater tanks for well over 20 years and a reef for 17.
I never have or will suggest that anyone let their tank become a cesspool.

[IslandCrow]

OK, Salty, I guess I read that differently than you intended. Although I really don't think water changes are going to hurt, I do see your point.