What vitamins are the corals consuming?

[michael guenther]

My tank who is 440 g and is very much populate with all kind of coral, sps, lps, soft, and a lot of mushrooms.
I want to get a batter growth and color.
The water parameters are right:
Alk-10-11
Ca-440
Ma1300
No3-0
Po4-0
Do you know what vitamins and amino acid they need?
Some of you have a receipt for it?
Thank you.

[HighlandReefer]

IMHO, dosing vitamins and amino acids are not necessary to achieve good coral growth, based on the fact that most Reef tanks of the month do not dose any.

Both vitamins and amino acids will act like other carbon sources (vodka, vinegar, sugar) in a reef tank in addition to possibly providing nutritional values. Coral produce many of these vitamins & amino acids themselves or indirectly acquire them from the symbionts which produce them. This is being researched with new techniques and a lot still remains to be discovered.

Hobbyists who have dosed vitamins and amino acids seem to have mixed results with their coral. Certainly small amounts should be dosed to prevent problems.

I would recommend dosing vitamins and amino acids one at a time to see if you find good or negative results and this is something that should be left to the more advanced hobbyists who have a thorough understanding of the subject matter. In other words if you need to ask about dosing them, you need to do a lot more reading of the various threads here on RC regarding their possible use. ;)

[HighlandReefer]

Fish foods will add vitamins and amino acids to your tank, so depending on exactly what is in the fish foods can make a big difference as well when experimenting with dosing them. Some salt mixes add vitamins as well and other unknown organics (perhaps some amino acids). :)

[Jeff]

Very interesting question Michael. I have been doing some looking around to find the same information. Cliff is right, adding vitamins and amino acid is not necessary to grow corals but I have found a lot of hobbyists that say it helps a lot. recently I have read a few things that indicate that adding supplemental vitamins does help grow corals.
This thread, showing massive growth, shows a reefer that adds a LOT of natural vitamins to his food mix: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1896006 . There are a lot of other variables in his regiment including time of feeding, flow etc but he is obviously doing something right.
After reading a lot of reviews of a couple commercially available products such as Seachem Reef Plus and Seachem Fuel, the common denominator is that the products do seem in increase growth, health and coral color.
I am a skeptic by nature but keep an open mind and am not opposed to trying/wasting money on a product. I have been successful in the past 22+ years of reefkeeping trying new ideas but also disappointed a few times. To be honest, I just ordered Seachem Reef Plus and plan on giving it a whirl to see if it does what Seachem and other hobbyists claim it does. I have been feeding a mixture of 2 kinds of Rod's food, Reef Chili, Coral Frenzy, Cyclopseeze, etc twice a week at night under moonlights with low flow and have seen a huge increase in coral health and growth. I am going to add some natural vitamins and the Seachem Reef Plus to the mix and see if it helps further. Certainly not a scientific approach but I'm just a hobbyist.
No matter what you do, keep your parameters stable and then go SLOW when adding anything new to the tank.

[HighlandReefer]

"I have been feeding a mixture of 2 kinds of Rod's food, Reef Chili, Coral Frenzy, Cyclopseeze, etc twice a week at night under moonlights with low flow and have seen a huge increase in coral health and growth."

Jeff,

If you were filthy rich, perhaps you could do some kind of experiments to isolate all the various chemical components in what you feed your tank alone, regarding all the various chemical and biological reactions that are going on in your tank. This would not take into consideration variations of the chemical makeup of these foods from batch to batch. :lol:

One big difference between natural reefs and a glass box is the water current and water volume found at natural reefs, carries the excess nutrients away from the coral reefs. In a glass box, we only have filtration methods to help remove excess nutrients. Needles to say we hobbyists have quite an organic soup for water in our tanks and know little about it. :)

[Jeff]

Cliff, I work with my hands, I went to public schools and use instinct and experience at work and in this hobby. You wont find a microscope at my house. I have never felt I needed science, experiments or solid evidence to guide me when keeping my reef. I have never ever told someone that I needed proven evidence to support their claims before trying new things. I am the exact opposite of you when it comes to the way my life is lead. I rely on hunches, instinct and faith (not the religious kind). I keep an open mind and try new things. I'm sure you know that I was involved in the vitamin c testing with Pufferpunk starting 3 years ago. We just went on before/after pictures, other hobbyists, and our own tanks to help us come up with a dosing program that worked. We figured out if the stuff even worked, what product to use, and whether or not it did anything to improve our tanks. We never asked a scientists to help or did any real scientific studies. We never felt the need. We got far with it and helped our tanks out and others as well. The same kind of thing hobbyists did when we figured out if sand was better then crushed coral, what kind of flow is needed to keep sps and if T5 lights work better then shop lights. We just ran on a hunch that an article written many years earlier may have some merit.
The part of my post that you quoted "I have been feeding a mixture of 2 kinds of Rod's food, Reef Chili, Coral Frenzy, Cyclopseeze, etc twice a week at night under moonlights with low flow and have seen a huge increase in coral health and growth" was not a scientific study done in a laboratory, it was something I tried because I read of others having success. I found that combination of food to work the best for me. I noticed an improvement in my corals after feeding like that. After reading that thread that I linked above, I started to feed only at night under moonlights with very low flow to see if I could have the same success as the original poster of that thread. I will, most likely add more/different types of food and see if I get even more improvement.

[HighlandReefer]

Jeff you have added significantly to the hobby with your research, even though it may not provide chemical documentation other than the amounts you add of each component. :thumbsup:

Trial and error along with good observation is an important aspect of this hobby since we don't have many available, affordable, hobby grade test kits. This method is one of the major tools that we can use. Randy has done this himself when trying vodka and vinegar as carbon sources. I do this myself as well.

Scientists tend to take results and ask further questions as to why the results occurred whether the results are good or bad, hence Newton's discovery when the apple hit him in the head. :lol:

[1badbrd]

i starting dosing amino acids and think everything looks better but the one thing i noticed that made me a believer was i had a SPS coral that after i boiught just didnt like my tank. lost its purple color (turned dark, not white) and the polyps never came out over the year the coral just slowly faded back in growth. About a month of dosing AA the polyps are out aain in full stretch and the grow is taking off, color hasnt returned yet....... All my other corals (SPS) are doing much better then before also, but this little guy was the difference in my mind to keep dosing AA

[Jeff]

We agree Cliff on this. It's just not my calling in life to be scientific.

[HighlandReefer]

This research recently completed provides some insight regarding vitamin B12 in coral:

Coral symbiotic complex: Hypothesis through vitamin B12 for a new evaluation



Sylvain AGOSTINI1), Yoshimi SUZUKI1), Beatriz E. CASARETO1)2), Yoshikatsu NAKANO3), Michio HIDAKA3) and Nesa BADRUN3)

1) Shizuoka University
2) Laboratory of Aquatic Science and Consultant Co. Ltd.
3) University of the Ryukyus

(Received 2008-12-02)
(Accepted 2008-12-11)


Abstract: Historically, hermatypic corals are defined as a symbiotic system composed of an animal host, corals belonging to the taxa Cnidarian, and a photosynthetic organism, the dinoflagellate Symbiodinium spp., also known as zooxanthellae. The high gross productivity and stability of coral reefs have been explained by the efficiency of the coral-algal symbiotic system in using the low nutrient concentrations found in the surrounding water and their rapid recycling in the water. Although several studies have reported the presence of bacteria closely associated with corals, the mechanisms of the relationships among them, the host and the zooxanthellae, remain to be shown. In this study, evidence for the importance of coelenteric bacteria in corals as a component of the coral symbiotic complex was shown by using a new approach. Vitamin B12, which is produced only by prokaryotes, was chosen as a chemical tool to clarify the symbiotic relationships among bacteria, coral, and zooxanthellae, which require vitamin B12. High vitamin B12 concentrations (up to 700pmol l-1 compared with max. 20pmol l-1 in the surrounding water) and high bacteria abundances (100 times higher than surrounding water) were found in the coelenteron of live corals using a new sampling method. The results led to the hypothesis that prokaryotes are the drivers of internal processes, such as vitamin B12 production, occurring directly inside the coral, forming a semi-closed system. Furthermore, most maintenance of the symbiotic complex is due to internal processes rather than the supply from outside the coral.

[gp2]

i starting dosing amino acids and think everything looks better but the one thing i noticed that made me a believer was i had a SPS coral that after i boiught just didnt like my tank. lost its purple color (turned dark, not white) and the polyps never came out over the year the coral just slowly faded back in growth. About a month of dosing AA the polyps are out aain in full stretch and the grow is taking off, color hasnt returned yet....... All my other corals (SPS) are doing much better then before also, but this little guy was the difference in my mind to keep dosing AA

What/when, etc.. Do you dose?
Thanks,
Greg

[1badbrd]

i dose 7 drops daily usign zeovits AA every morning

[michael guenther]

i starting dosing amino acids and think everything looks better but the one thing i noticed that made me a believer was i had a SPS coral that after i boiught just didnt like my tank. lost its purple color (turned dark, not white) and the polyps never came out over the year the coral just slowly faded back in growth. About a month of dosing AA the polyps are out aain in full stretch and the grow is taking off, color hasnt returned yet....... All my other corals (SPS) are doing much better then before also, but this little guy was the difference in my mind to keep dosing AA

All the advetivs that we use for the tank are very expensive.
So I found a cheaper alternative by DIY. With chem. Like calcium hydroxide for KALKWASSER etc.
All of the food supplements have, more or less the same ingredients.
So I'm sure that there is a way by making it D.I.Y

[noobtothereef]

All the advetivs that we use for the tank are very expensive.
So I found a cheaper alternative by DIY. With chem. Like calcium hydroxide for KALKWASSER etc.
All of the food supplements have, more or less the same ingredients.
So I'm sure that there is a way by making it D.I.Y

a.a's are a little diffeent than your basic calcium hydroxide

[bertoni]

You'd need to look up the nutrient needs of the corals you intend to keep. Vitamins are defined as minor nutrients required by humans, and it's not clear how many of them actually are useful to corals, or are required from their food. Personally, I agree that feeding a variety of marine-based foods is a good first step.

I think that coming up with some papers to define a good supplement would be an interesting project. The same goes for amino acids. Since we don't know what's in our food with any precision, we don't know whether the corals actually need any more vitamins given a specific diet, but getting a reasonable list of known required vitamins (or minor nutrients for corals) and amino acids would be a first step.

[michael guenther]

You'd need to look up the nutrient needs of the corals you intend to keep. Vitamins are defined as minor nutrients required by humans, and it's not clear how many of them actually are useful to corals, or are required from their food. Personally, I agree that feeding a variety of marine-based foods is a good first step.

I think that coming up with some papers to define a good supplement would be an interesting project. The same goes for amino acids. Since we don't know what's in our food with any precision, we don't know whether the corals actually need any more vitamins given a specific diet, but getting a reasonable list of known required vitamins (or minor nutrients for corals) and amino acids would be a first step.

The supplement witch is given to the water are needed by the corals, because of high population in the tank in relation to the water surrounding in nature.
I'm taking vitamin B12 & D for myself. The "superman" montipora the green purple , get with the time Braun, so I put some of them in the tank and after one night he get his color bake.
I see also an improvement in color in other corals.
Most human supplements have the same ingredients like the stuff for the corals.
I'll try to make a combination and cheerfully ad it.

[allsps40]

I have been dosing the Seachem Fuel and Reef Plus since I ran out of Fuel. When I started with the Fuel I saw an increase in growth and had fairly good colors. I dont know if this is because of the dosing or not. Not I dont dose as much. I do add some to my frozen food mix when I make it. That way there is always some being added to the tank. I need to play with it some more to see if it really works.

[Genetics]

I had found a decent paper somewhere that discussed amino acid needs in sps corals. Essentially they found that they were well adapted at producing their own or by utilizing symbiotic bacteria.

[bertoni]

I'm not surprised by that. I wonder whether dosing amino acids helps (or seems to help) because the corals need the amino acids, or the corals just need more dissolved nutrients in general.

[michael guenther]

I'm not surprised by that. I wonder whether dosing amino acids helps (or seems to help) because the corals need the amino acids, or the corals just need more dissolved nutrients in general.

The surrounding of water in the tank is million times smaller than in the oceans.
The skimmer working brings the nutrients to 0, so it makes sense that the corals need to have another source of them.
The last night I put my mixture in and switch of the skimmer.
So far every think is ok

[HighlandReefer]

"The surrounding of water in the tank is million times smaller than in the oceans."

Yes, the ocean is much larger in volume than our tanks, thus allowing excess nutrients & waste products to be removed through currents and dissipated into the deeper water in the ocean. Also, the amount of food we add to our tanks taking into consideration the volume, is much greater than the food available in the ocean regarding water volume. ;)



"The skimmer working brings the nutrients to 0, so it makes sense that the corals need to have another source of them."

According to the limited testing we have available regarding the efficiency of the best skimmers, it was found that skimmers don't do as good a job as you suggest. Skimmers will help remove suspended inorganics and organics, but they don't remove much of the dissolved organics which include vitamins & amino acids.....etc. The dissolved organics are removed by water changes, GAC and bacterial action (also other organisms). We really don't know much about the concentrations and make-up of these dissolved organics in our tank. Perhaps they are much higher than you think. :)

The bottom line is we don't know much about what happens to the vitamins and amino acids once they are added to our tanks (through both foods added and possible additional dosing of them). Are they just another carbon source to drive larger populations of bacteria which help brake down the dissolved and undissolved organic matter or are they actually being utilized by the coral and/or coral symbionts? If they are being utilized, then in what manor (perhaps directly or indirectly used for biological processes). What is the overall effect they have on the entire tank ecosystem? There are a lot of unanswered questions regarding this.

[HighlandReefer]

One of the major concerns when adding any vitamins & amino acids are their possible effects on the coral symbionts. Too much can lead to bleaching or other tissue necrosis type symptoms in the coral. This also occurs when adding too much carbon sources like vodka, too many micronutrients like heavy metals........etc. What are the effects when we dose amino acids, vitamins, micro-supplements, carbon sources, additional foods....etc in combination on the symbionts found in coral? Needless to say this gets quite complicated to try and determine in our tanks without any of the necessary testing procedures available. It boils down to a lot of guess work IMHO and one needs to work with one item at a time in a methodically, slow manor while maintaining the other factors as close as possible. :)

[noobtothereef]

im suprised there hasnt been a study on this logging every vitamin, mineral and nutrient that a coral would use. Im sure something lik this has been studied at 1 or more of the marine biology universities, where would one look for this info though.....

[tmz]

One amino not produced by corals but used by them is aspartic acid per a post by Randy H Farley a few months ago.
My sps do very well in terms of color and growth with only moderate organic carbon dosing(vodka and vinegar) and feeding a mix of marine foods including small micron foods in Coral Frenzy.
Zoanthus in particular seem much healthier and seem to grow faster with organic carbon dosing.Perhaps they absorb the acetate or other bacterial products or maybe the bacteria themselves help. Don't really know.
Specific vitamins like vitamin C may indeed derive most if not all of their perceived benefit from the organic carbon and by products of bacterial activity and not collagen enhancements if any attributed to vitamin C.

I've used hobby amino mixes in the past without any noticeable effect. Some of the benefit observed by others using aminos may again be a result of the extra orgnaic carbon and effects of bacterial activity and perhas the extra nitrogen.

For the fun of it though, I started dosing some aspartic acid from i herb.com last week @ 1/4 tsp(ie 1 gram) per 200 gallons per week. I account for the extra organic carbon in it by reducing the vodka dosing on the day of dose by an equivalent amount ,ie, 2.5 ml of 80 proof vodka less than usual per gram of asparic acid powder. Too soon to observe any benefit after only 2 doses but so far no ill effects.

As for science vs anecdotal experience, I don't think they are mutally exclusive. To the contrary I think the science can hone instincts and insight and add to the quality of anecdotal observations.
Often the science can't answer questions and anecdotal experience is a great way to share and develop insight. Putting what relevant science I can grasp to an anecdote helps me interpret it and to decide in a more informed way if a particular anecdotal experience is of value to my particular system

[michael guenther]

pic. of my tank:
http://www.reef-center-host.com/pix/albums/userpics/10088/normal_try4.jpg
http://www.reef-center-host.com/pix/albums/userpics/10088/normal_try3.jpg
http://www.reef-center-host.com/pix/albums/userpics/10088/normal_try2.jpg
http://www.reef-center-host.com/pix/albums/userpics/10088/normal_try1.jpg
http://www.reef-center-host.com/pix/albums/userpics/10088/normal_try.jpg
http://www.reef-center-host.com/pix/albums/userpics/10088/normal_try5.jpg

[HighlandReefer]

im suprised there hasnt been a study on this logging every vitamin, mineral and nutrient that a coral would use. Im sure something lik this has been studied at 1 or more of the marine biology universities, where would one look for this info though.....

There are many scientific documents available on the internet regarding the various nutrients used by coral. Unfortunately most of the documents available for free are just summaries of the entire article.

FWIW, research performed on coral is secondary to research performed regarding the human body. Hence the funds made available to this type of research is much more limited by the government. With all the coral bleaching going on, there are more studies being made which are funded by the government and private nonprofit marine organization which I assume are getting more donations now due to all the coral bleaching problems. Most of the money seems to be directed at research trying to ward off the coral bleaching problems.

Still, there is a lot of information out there on the internet and you need to learn how to data mine it with all the possible search words. There are many books and journals available if you have the funds to acquire them. Boomer's collection of books....etc is quite impressive. ;)

[tmz]

Thanks for the pictures,Michael.
Here are some of mine.These heavily skimmed tanks get no vitamins/aminos, etc, just, water chages, food ,vodka/vinegar , kalkwasser,a bit of baking soda from time to time and a very small amount of iodide:

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee306/fishandfootball58/Toms%20Reef%20System%20July%203rd%202010/TomTMZreefphotos292.jpg


http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee306/fishandfootball58/Toms%20Reef%20System%20July%203rd%202010/TomTMZreefphotos261.jpg

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee306/fishandfootball58/Toms%20Reef%20System%20July%203rd%202010/TomTMZreefphotos215.jpg

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee306/fishandfootball58/Toms%20Reef%20System%20July%203rd%202010/TomTMZreefphotos189.jpg

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee306/fishandfootball58/Toms%20Reef%20System%20July%203rd%202010/TomTMZreefphotos180.jpg

There are more pictures here:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1872264

[michael guenther]

Tom, it's really astounding what color and growth.
How old is your tanks and are thy connected to one system?
How often and amount you make the water changes?
Can I have more details of your system?

[michael guenther]

:Tom, it's really astounding what color and growth.
How old is your tanks and are thy connected to one system?
How often and amount you make the water changes?
Can I have more details of your system?

:sad2:

[tmz]

Thankyou Michael,

I don't wan't to hijack this thread but will briefly answer your questions.

The oldest tank is about 8yrs old : the newest about 5years old. There are 7 tanks integrated via the sump and drains. There are also a half dozen separate sections for refugia, cryptic zones and a deep sand bed. Total water volume is close to 600galons.

Water changes are 1% daily plus maintenance changes roughly amounting 45% per month in total.

Parameters are: Calcium 430ppm, Alkalinity 9.5dkh, specific gravity 1.026, temp 77 to 78 degrees F,PO4 <0.05ppm, NO3 <0.02ppm.

More details are available in the link given in the above post and an older one, here:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1470923

[tntneon]

beautifull tanks Tom :thumbsup: ,
As for the food part , what do you feed the corals / fish daily and how much ?

greetingzz tntneon :)

[tmz]

Thanks tnt,
I feed a mix of frozen mysis, brine , mosqiuto larvae aka bloodworms,and cycloeeze 2x per day. In the am feeding I also give some spirulina flake ,prime reeef flake, shredded krill and nori on a clips. I also feed Coral Frenzy sporadically but not very often.

Michael I forgot to note ph; 8.21 to 8.35 daily swing.

I'm happy to answer any questions on my puddle but it would be less distracting from the gist of this thread to answer them on either of these threads:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=1872264

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1470923