is my angel a queen or blue?

[chevyman46933]

i recently purchased what i thought was a queen angelfish here off rc, after comparing blues and queens and the hybrid townsend, i cant tell the difference, is there anyway to differenciate them?

heres pics of mine:

http://i54.*******.com/e5mjid.jpg

http://i53.*******.com/t0ku3l.jpg

http://i51.*******.com/98sy7k.jpg

http://i56.*******.com/setytk.jpg

http://i55.*******.com/29m9k3l.jpg
im thinking this is more of a blue than a queen?

the intense pink is due to my lighting, with your eyes he is bright blue where in the pic he is intense pink

pic without lights and with flash on camera

http://i54.*******.com/21mrc4i.jpg

what do you think?

[pinnatus]

Queen or possibly hybrid. Blues do not have the "crown" on their forehead.

[SDguy]

I thought blues only lose their crowns as huge adults. That looks like a blue to me, especially the body color, and the complete lack of any blue/purple on the back edges of the dorsal and anal fins.

[pinnatus]

The other characteristic is the stripes are straight on a blue, and curved on the queen. The stripes here look pretty straight. I am leaning towards hybrid.

[Kahuna Tuna]

That looks like a straight up blue to me but it could be a cross. It may be too early to tell with this changeling.

[chevyman46933]

has anyone ever heard of a "golden-morphed queen"?

ive done google searching for a couple hour on different large angels

http://www.brasilmergulho.com/port/biologia/documentos/Variacoes_cromaticas_populacao.pdf

the link is in english and show different color morphs or inbreeding angels in the wild


im leaning more towards this being a hybrid townsend, reasons are the patterns look more blue angel but the overall colors look more queen, nothing ive seen so far has a solid yellow tail and streamer except for the townsend or goldne morph queen from st pauls rocks

[lunner]

I think it is a hybrid.

[tcmfish]

Hybrid for sure. The faint but STRAIGHT bars point to blue, along with the grey brown body, but the crown points to queen. Blues don't have a crown. The crown on a queen is a blue circle with black insides with blue specks. Blues down have a crown, but hybrids have a crown that is blue and usually missing the black and blue specks inside. Also seeing as you live in Florida, you probably purchased it from a LFS that got it from someone who collected it locally. I think the hybrids are much more common in Florida than other locations.

[TBall]

As long as its healthy. Thats all that matters.

[chevyman46933]

so im guessing everyone is set on hybrid townsend?

[Vili_Shark]

Hybrid.
Just got one myself today , straight from Forrest in sunny FLA.
Thanks man. :)

[SDguy]

Actually, I think the base of the pectoral fins says SLIGHT hybrid too. Blues don't have that blue ring as adults, and neither have it as babies, so....

[chevyman46933]

Hybrid.
Just got one myself today , straight from Forrest in sunny FLA.
Thanks man. :)

can you post a pic? whatd you pay and what size?

[tcmfish]

I think he is out of the country so he paid a little more ;) , but they are common for us Floridians or anyone getting fish from Florida.

[Kahuna Tuna]

This fish is obviously a changeling and is showing both juvenile and adult color, what size is the fish at this point? It would be great to post more pics as this fish grown and looses the rest of the juvenile pattern, I'm not at all convinced that this fish is going to keep that crown. Nice get BTW, that is a very beautiful looking angel.

[chevyman46933]

id say he/she is about 4-5 inches in length

it was sold to me as a queen, and regardless what it is, its is very healthy and active, eating anything and a gorgeous fish!

i can def post pics as he/she gets bigger and loses the patterns

[SDguy]

If that crown is the deciding factor, from what I'm gathering, I'm starting to think finding a pure blue is the rarity, not the hybrid :D

I thought this picture I found is interesting...note the lack of crown (only a blue smudge) even though juvi stripe remnants are still visible.
http://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/fish/gallery/photoout.asp?id=5607

HUGE adult:
http://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/fish/gallery/photoout.asp?id=6733

And so what would this be, slight hybrid als, because there is some black in the crown?
http://www.aquariumzone.jp/fish/blueenzeru_02.jpg

Mine from 20+ years ago...apparently also a hybrid... I thought it was a blue the whole time...
http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p5/SDreefguy/IMG_6621_1.jpg

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p5/SDreefguy/IMG_6626_1.jpg

[tcmfish]

I agree. Finding a true blue is harder I think.

[chevyman46933]

i think what is sold as "blue" are the cheapest of the 3 as well

[copps]

Between adult blues, queens, and hybrids there are many indicators in the difference... all are color based... there are no meristical differences in these species that are able to be used in telling them apart... as juveniles there are much fewer indicators than in adults...

Despite full queens being relatively rare in florida compared to blues, wueen genes can be found in many of these fish... the hybrids are obviously fertile so you get many fish that have just traces of queen blood... The obvious 50/50 townsend's are not nearly as common as the plethora of fish that appear to be blue angels but have traces of queen in them... like the fish in this thread...

The crown looks like it will stay on this fish, but in subadult fish some of the crown you see is remnant juvenile coloration... not an adult queen crown... true blues will only have a blue streak... not a crown... and any black in the crown shows queen genetics...

The true giveaway that this fish is a hybrid is the base of the pectoral fin (good job Peter)... true blues will not show a circle and will not have black at the base of the pectoral fin...

has anyone ever heard of a "golden-morphed queen"?

ive done google searching for a couple hour on different large angels

http://www.brasilmergulho.com/port/biologia/documentos/Variacoes_cromaticas_populacao.pdf

the link is in english and show different color morphs or inbreeding angels in the wild



This is a well-known population of queen angels at St. Paul's Rocks off of the coast of Brazil... queens are very common there, and it is just 4 acres with little recruitment from the mainland of Brazil... thus the inbreeding... the regular population of queen angels on the coast of Brazil is much more yellow than the Caribbean population, and the yellow morph is the most common morph found at St. Paul's Rocks... whatever the color you could always tell a St. Paul's specimen from the shorter dorsal and anal filaments... and these are all full queen as blue angels do not range anywhere near Brazil... There are yellow morphed fish elsewhere though... and speaking of the hybrid this is a yellow morphed Townsend I have... :)

http://i747.photobucket.com/albums/xx114/johnjcoppolino/townsend_xanthic.jpg

If that crown is the deciding factor, from what I'm gathering, I'm starting to think finding a pure blue is the rarity, not the hybrid :D

I thought this picture I found is interesting...note the lack of crown (only a blue smudge) even though juvi stripe remnants are still visible.
http://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/fish/gallery/photoout.asp?id=5607

HUGE adult:
http://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/fish/gallery/photoout.asp?id=6733

And so what would this be, slight hybrid als, because there is some black in the crown?
http://www.aquariumzone.jp/fish/blueenzeru_02.jpg

Mine from 20+ years ago...apparently also a hybrid... I thought it was a blue the whole time...
http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p5/SDreefguy/IMG_6621_1.jpg

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p5/SDreefguy/IMG_6626_1.jpg

Finding a pure blue is not the rarity... but numbers in South Florida were studied and there were areas where the hybrids made up nearly 10%... At inshore channels there are next to no queens found... blues dominate almost everywhere in Florida expect the reef tops off shore, where queens do... it is generally believed that blues evolved along the shorelines and queens at offshore reefs... recently in areas like Florida the two populations have mixed back together...

Peter, your old fish, and the one you show with black in the crown... is indeed the hybrid... :)

Copps

[SDguy]

Finding a pure blue is not the rarity... but numbers in South Florida were studied and there were areas where the hybrids made up nearly 10%... At inshore channels there are next to no queens found... blues dominate almost everywhere in Florida expect the reef tops off shore, where queens do... it is generally believed that blues evolved along the shorelines and queens at offshore reefs... recently in areas like Florida the two populations have mixed back together...

Peter, your old fish, and the one you show with black in the crown... is indeed the hybrid... :)

Copps

Thanks John, you are always good for an informative post! Looking at my old pics really makes me miss that fish.

[copps]

Thanks John, you are always good for an informative post! Looking at my old pics really makes me miss that fish.

Peter, be happy you have the photos! My mother got rid of all of mine from growing up, along with my entire Star Wars collection that would probably now be worth more than my angelfish collection! I haven't been into Star Wars since I was a kid but that will irk me until I hit the grave! While it wasn't my first angel (a koran was), when I was about 11 or 12 I had an adult blue angel... I wonder if it was a hybrid!

For a cool yellow xanthic morph check out this little blue angel... I have this guy in my big reef now and he completely morphed back!

http://i747.photobucket.com/albums/xx114/johnjcoppolino/Holacanthus_bermudensis_xanthic3.jpg

Copps

[SDguy]

Ha! I had the original Death Star playset! :lol: http://image46.webshots.com/46/5/95/52/2771595520060297807ImWKZu_ph.jpg

I remember when you got that little yellow blue angel. How big is it now?

[copps]

Not so little anymore... maybe 3 to 4"... a subadult now... this was it a while ago in the process of changing... seen now it looks completely normal...

http://i747.photobucket.com/albums/xx114/johnjcoppolino/Holacanthus_bermudensis_xanthicnew7.jpg

[copps]

And on the topic of flame wrasses it reminded me of this guy... who also changed back...

http://i747.photobucket.com/albums/xx114/johnjcoppolino/wrasse3.jpg

A few world renowned ichthyologists are amazed that some of these things change back...

Edit: sorry to get off topic Chevyman...

Copps

[chevyman46933]

no prob copps

so are we pretty much 100% mine is a hybrid? im getting mixed signals again with a blue? the poll shows 10 to 7 hybrid

[chevyman46933]

whats the going average rate for townsends? i seen queens at lfs store upwards of 160ish and blues around 80 but never noticed a townsend

[copps]

no prob copps

so are we pretty much 100% mine is a hybrid? im getting mixed signals again with a blue? the poll shows 10 to 7 hybrid

I am as sure as I could be without DNA... :) The fish is mostly blue, this the mixed results... do you have a bet going with a buddy or something?:D


whats the going average rate for townsends? i seen queens at lfs store upwards of 160ish and blues around 80 but never noticed a townsend

In all honesty most all of the hybrids either sell as blues or queens depending on what they look more like... When they are sold as Townsend's the price is usually between a queen and a blue... at least in the US...

[blface]

I'm assuming that this is a true juvi queen??
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t25/thiellei/Queen211-13.jpg

http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t25/thiellei/JuviQueen11-13.jpg

[SDguy]

I'd say it probably has a little blue in it, based on the stripes and the overall color.

[blface]

But the majority of it looks like a queen??

Copps??

[blface]

I'd say it probably has a little blue in it, based on the stripes and the overall color.

I thought the curved stripes is what distinguished it as a queen.

[chevyman46933]

isnt it funny how i bring up this topic about my queen or blue or whatever it is, now everyone is supectful of thiers lol

<B>QUEEN</B>
http://liveaquaria.com/images/categories/large/lg-67532-queen-adult-angel.jpg

<B>BLUE</B>
http://liveaquaria.com/images/categories/large/lg-66830-Blue-Angelfish.jpg

[copps]

But the majority of it looks like a queen??

Copps??

Yes that fish is all or mostly queen... Note the curvature of the 4th white bar from the eye... At that size it is impossible to tell if the fish has a little blue angel in it, unless you can verify it was a specimen imported from Brazil... Notice also that the dorsal and anal filaments become elongated at a smaller size in queens... the blues stay "boxier" longer...

Funny you put up the Liveaquaria photos... their adult blue angel photo was a hybrid until I let them know about it earlier this year... :D

Copps

[Gary Majchrzak]

this fish is in a FOWLR (no living corals) that I have access to.

May 2010
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y140/chrisqueenz/FishtankMaxima232.jpg

Nov. 2010
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y270/gary334/Queen_Nov_2010.jpg

[Kahuna Tuna]

I love the look of those mostly yellow queen crosses, what a beautiful fish.

[Vili_Shark]

I love the look of those mostly yellow queen crosses, what a beautiful fish.

I agree.
that fish above is awsome.

[jonbry123]

Where can one purchase the yellow morph? I've been looking recently into adding a queen to my FOWLR. My local LFS of which I have two that I regularly shop at don't bring them in.