Cyano/dino battle is on the ropes.

[wickedfish]

As some of you have noticed I have been highjacking threads that deal with cyano and dinoflagelettes. Long story longer I wanted to do my own, sort of.
I noticed cyano or dino in my display 3 weeks ago in a very small form on the power heads and on some bits of sand. I thought it was nothing....wrong.

3 days later my new AI sol blues showed up. I installed them with some help. Next day after the lights were on the sand got a bit more brown, not much but noticeable.

4 days after this my Brs reactors came in and I added 1/4 of the dose recommended for GFO to make sure things were cool. I added a normal helping of carbon to the other reactor. I then started them up and things looked okay. 2 days later my white sand was riddled with brown sand looked like when you add cinnamon to sugar but a bit darker.

Fast forward to 12 days ago I started to notice stringy reddish brown strings on my LR and some of the powerheads. I didn't care until it started to creep on my corals and smother them. It claimed a wild deep water piece I had browned up from being neon green but it was alive and now its a goner. It then was covering my large frag of lime in the sky and I was getting ****ed.

Next day did a 15% WC and scrubbed the rocks and siphoned and cut the lights for 3 days. I also added another 1400gph power head. The sand cleared up but the rocks looked worse when the lights were on. I have been feeding flake spirulina ("thanks reef a palooza and the makers of it sorry forgot the name.") every other day and very little at that. The fish have been cleaning the rocks which rarely happens, the corals and the frag racks. The PT has never cleaned anything for over a year or so he is a pig and now he sounds like a bad roommate, take it.

Snails were munching away I have a monster sized one that has been devouring that crap like it was burger night at a frat house, and the little stars that are always nowhere, are all on that crap on the glass in the crevices it's a group effort (three cheers for the clean up crew!)
I hear its probably bad for the fish and inverts to eat it... what am I gonna do, tell them "no don't eat that."

I added more flow to the display and did the unmentionable I added the red slime remover from blue vet a week ago. This week I have shortened the photoperiod by 3 hours shorter killed the white light by 50% and turned up the blue lights 20%.

I had NP vertex pellets in the reactor and carbon in another the entire time, oh and ran UV 4 days ago, after disabling it in MAY or June.

FF till Wednesday Daddy got a new skimmer installed it fresh from another reefers tank, (thanks SABA) and it skimmed really nasty greens in 8 hours 12oz. worth. That night I loaded 2 and 1/2 cups of fresh carbon and added that to the reactor and into the sump.
Friday morning today. I added 1.5 oz. of distilled vinegar and took out the pellets. I came back from work at 2pm and nothing stuff was looking the same. 3:15pm I noticed the area that was getting pounded by my powerheads were the areas with most cyano/dino. I moved the power heads cut one off, and voila! At 7pm those areas were clean no visible signs of anything the corals that had the crap on them, no more. I took out 2 powerheads 1 hour ago.

I now have the flow at the ends of the tanks pointing up except the stupid vortech that not gonna happen.

My 2 pennies, cyano mixed with dino or just one of these. Was aided, absolutely aided by flow. I am positive of this. Would bet the older kid on that:eek2:!
The carbon cleaned the water to a shine I have never ever seen wow! Things are looking way better and I was thinking of breaking it all down and scrubbing everything and doing a 35% WC. Thank goodness I might not have to do that, but have 35gallons of saltwater waiting in the garage just in case this crap rears its nasty,horrible,disgusting face. I am gonna blast it.:furious:

Anyone deal with the stringy strands of dino/cyano? I keep calling it that because everyone says dino's are brown not reddish brown and blah blah blah. I think its cyano but I know without pictures this thread sucks.

I don't want proof or evidence that I have issues that are stumping me. J/K didn't think about it till right before I started typing. Sorry for that. Lights are out right now. Please feel free to write your thoughts and Highjack away I do it all the time in a good way.:beer:

[ChuckG]

I think your water column was/is too clean (devoid of nitrogen and/or phosphates). Note the proliferation of the problem after you added GFO and/or Carbon. This only made the situation more favorable for dinos and or cyano.

When phosphates or Nitrogen compounds are no longer available in the water column the beneficial bacteria will go dormant and/or starve to death. In their absence cyano and/or dinos can become pervasive because they can acquire nitrogen and phosphates bu other means not available to the beneficial bacteria.

The solution is a two part equation.. Disrupting the cyno /dino lifecycle and also recovering the beneficial bacteria. If the infestation is not excessively bad then sometimes recovering the beneficial bacteria happens automatically after disrupting the cyano / dino life cycle and without further intervention. If the infestation is bad then sometimes recovering the beneficial bacteria and overall balance within the tank can take an extended amount of time. In these extended scenarios, recovery might be realized sooner by ensuring that trace amounts of elemental Nitrogen and/or Phosphate are available for the beneficial bacteria to multiply and grow both during and after the disruption process.

Disruption Process:

- Manually remove pests daily, all of them
- Use mechanical filtration methods 24/7 and clean these filters out daily until pests are gone
- Run High PH
- Lights out periods pf 3-4 days in duration; actinics only while feeding and cleaning the tank
- No water changes

Recover the bacteria:

- Dose bacteria
- Feed the fish heavily but get it all in their mouths; decaying food in the tank will fuel pests before it can completly decay and be consumed by
beneficial bacteria
- Temporarily stop GFO use, Continue Carbon
- Skim dry
- If feeding fish is not fast enough, dose low amounts of elemental nitrogen (ammonia) and/or phosphates; whichever tests undetectable at the time.
You must be diligent in cleaning out the pests daily though otherwise they will obscure your test results

[wickedfish]

Chuck,


Good info. So you don't recommend adding new saltwater to the matter then?

I feel the carbon is really helping. The vinegar also might be helping but it might just be coincidental. The slower flow is for sure aiding woke up today and the stuff is very dormant. I am glad you said no gfo cause that was on the list of things to do. So was the 30% WC I do want to take out most of my rock and give it a vacuum/scrub in another tank of clean water then add it back to the display. I scrubbed all of the powerheads last night with vinegar and fresh r/o water and wiped all the other areas that were affected. The sand has tiny amounts of this stuff but almost nothing, I will vacuum some out tomorrow. I am gonna feed the fish a bit more these days to see what happens, but I do like the fact that they are doing the house cleaning for a change.

[jimnrose]

Chuck, I'm also fighting cyano and read your recommendatons but have a few questions.
1. Removing the cyano by syphoning also removes water thereby requiring fresh salt water. In my case it's about 5% of the volume. Therefore how can I avoid water changes?
2. You say high pH but Boomer said high Alk (12) and low pH (8.1) & low temp (80F). My pH was at 8.4 and can only get it down to 8.2 in mid day.
3. I'm nervous not having light on the tank because the corals shut down. Howlong can they safely go without light?
4. the fuge has lights 24 hrs & the cyano is red not orange therefore confirming cyano loveslight but how long can I turn off the fuge light without affecting the macroalgae?
5. you say turn off the GFO while others say change it every 2 weeks instead of every 4 weeks (increase the use). What is the reasoning for stopping the GFO?
Jim

[wickedfish]

Jim the macro does fine without light I had it off for 5 days and it grew.

I think what he means in my case is my phosphates were sucked out to quick and made the bad bacteria compete with the good bacteria and won. I have seen my cyano recede I am also adding vinegar in the morning and added kalk to my top off.

I also read boomers and cliffs posts also great info. The main thing seems to be retracing steps to find what actually caused the bloom.

Your right that if you siphon then you have to topp off with fresh salt water.

[jimnrose]

Esteban, this 'stuff' is driving me mad.
I realize everyone is trying to help but some people say increase the GFO while others say shut it off.
I also agree that not having sufficient good bacteria is the reason thiis cyano bacteria is growing and light is a primary food source.
Some say increase the fish food while others say dont' feed for a few days.

I do agree with Boomer that reducing the pH would help (charts show that) but I couldn't get the pH down. Tried seltzer but it didn't work.

Someone recommended to clean out the sump and skimmer & I finally did that today and boy was the sump dirty.

I'm going to try shutting off the lights and monitor the corals and macro. I don't have the fuge plumbed into the display because it has a higher (red) cyano concentration . Handling them seperately.

Thanks for your input. Jim

P.S. I'm still ruinning the GFO & carbon.

[zma21]

Oh, the nasty dinoflagellates.

I'm doing some research on them in the bio lab. They're nasty little suckers, and look like an octagon with a turtle shell on their back under the microscope. Pretty resilient, as well. As soon as I find a rock solid method to starve or interrupt biochemical processes, I'll let you know.

[jimnrose]

zma21, there are many of us who need calrification on the attack strategy.
Thanks, Jim

[wickedfish]

So today I did a 25% wc cleaned, siphoned off the sand rocks corals, frag racks, scrubbed them as well and scrubbed the powerheads. Put the power heads back in and in 2 hours they have the nasties on them.

I cut flow again and the stuff recedes. The sand looks better though. I added fresh carbon, new sock, and fresh gfo, I am gonna do a lights out again but this stuff is in the water column and I think a diatom filter is the key to this. I am skimming somewhat decent but I don't feed much. I also notice all the little stars are going crazy all over the tank glass, they seem to love this crap and the tangs are all over it too.

I hope the fish are okay. My lps seem to be perkier today. My sump is clean but I might be ditching the fugue next week since I have mud and chaetto that might contribute to this crap. I presumed it would compete with the cyan but if it is its losing terribly.

[spieszak]

saw it on another post, and it worked for me (although mine wasn't that bad..) got as much as I could out, and dropped my temp by 2 degrees with some phosban like stuff in a hang on filter and it hasn't come back..

The point is, I think it was the temp change that made the biggest difference, because I had tried the phosban stuff prior..

[adambirk]

dino's love the minerals in freshly mixed saltwater. this is why you always see them worse the day after a w/c. and in most cases a water change is a good thing but with dinos this is not the case.

also i can tell you from my own battle with them a little over a year ago trying to siphon it out is useless and actually the worst thing because you end up breaking more off and spreading it throughout the tank.

i would start by a lights out for 3 to 4 days. your corals will be fine. my tank is 99%sps with 5 clalms too. didnt hurt anything but i frag that browned a bit.

next would be to get your ph up to 8.5 to 8.6. and keep it as steady as possible at that. i had mine at 8.6 for 3 weeks via dripping saturated kalk slurry.

also i have reef floor sand in my tank which is quite a bit coarser than the finer sand i was using in my prior tank. so i think this was trapping alot of nasties as i never vacumed this. 2 inches deep just for looks. anyway i found the biggest change was when i vacumed off the top .5 inches of sand a quarter of the tank at a time. i did this over the corse of a week(obviously had to put some fresh s/w back into my tank).

2 days after i got the top layer of sand out of my tank the dinos had really died back. i am talking by about 80%. i then ran some fresh carbon and gfo changing that out weekly for 2 weeks coupled with lights out for 1 day a week after the initial lights out.

also i was carbon dosing at the time so i stoped that immediatly(vodka) but kept adding mb7 weekly. this whole process took about a month and a half to 2 months and i almost broke my tank down because of the nightmare with this stuff. to anybody just hang in there it will take some time but like anything else in this hobby it doesnt happen fast.

i think the worst thing people do is freak out and start doing massive water changes or changing a bunch of things and usually that is the worst thing you can do in this hobby.

also here is a good site for info on dinoflagettates and how to treat them.

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-11/rhf/index.php#12


-adam

[jimnrose]

Dino, I believe from a thread on cyano, Boomer said the pH should be raised for Dino but dropped for cyano. He allso said the temp should be on the low end to fight both outbreaks. It's a bummer if both outbreaks occur.
Jim

[Eric45]

I've had a few bouts with dinos and cyano and have found only one solution, take a shotgun to the tank. Just kidding. For me it was a simple but expensive matter of aggressively using granulated ferric oxide. I change it out every four days for about three weeks and it keeps the outbreak under control - not that its gone, just under control. I think it just has to go through its cycle before it disappears entirely. But it, and I'm convinced many other problems people have, are related to phosphates.

[wickedfish]

Yeah the w/c is not in the cards for the next few weeks. Maybe I'll be like the old guys who don't do w/c anymore. This stuff came back with a vengeance same as before the vacuuming. WTH I am planning on changing the gfo and carbon every 4 days. Kalk is gonna be more concentrated, to raise the ph see if that helps. Lights out next 2 days.

[wickedfish]

Anyone else notice wherever flow is most powerful is where the dino/cyano is most concentrated? My powerheads and circulation is only in the top 1/3 of my tank right now. So my powerheads and bulk heads have those nasties on them with in 45 minutes they form.

I turn off the powerheads and it forms a globby thingy and the YT comes and feasts. I am definitely not making more fresh salt water for a couple weeks. I did that big wc and it made things worse I also notice disturbing this stuff only spreads it.

I am contemplating mb-7 and the special blend. What do you guys recommend? I imagine this stuff is gonna cycle out, its not out of control and is only claiming a few branches of a little coral but it still p-s me off since this piece finally colored up after 5 months.

[wickedfish]

I need a better camera the iphone is crap for close ups on this crap but I will download a pic in a bit. Its all over the sand and lower glass it grew since the wc. I added fresh carbon 2 cups to my brs reactor and it seemed to clear a bit

[allset]

I had the same problem last year and someone recomend using CUPRISORB.It may sound crazy,but it worked!